Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 8 November 2016
5. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he has sought bilateral meetings with the First Minister for Northern Ireland, Arlene Foster, and the leader of the UUP, Mike Nesbitt, regarding Brexit and the all-island civic dialogue. [33516/16]
View answer6. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach the status of any further discussions with the devolved administrations in the United Kingdom, in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales regarding Brexit. [33530/16]
View answer7. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meetings on 3 November 2016 with the leaders of the Northern Ireland political parties. [33551/16]
View answer8. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he has been in contact with the Northern Ireland First Minister since the civic forum on Brexit was held on 2 November 2016. [33804/16]
View answer9. Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meetings with the leaders of the UUP, SDLP and Sinn Féin that took place on 3 November 2016 in Stormont; and the understandings that were reached regarding the legal and constitutional developments in regard to the invocation of Article 50 during the Brexit process. [33825/16]
View answerI propose to answer Questions Nos. 5 to 9, inclusive, together.
I was in Northern Ireland last week to meet representatives of the Newry Chamber of Commerce to hear at first hand of the challenges of Brexit in Border areas. I also outlined the Government's concerns and position in a speech at an event organised by the Newry Junior Chamber. Subsequently, together with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, I held bilateral meetings with the leaders of Sinn Féin, the SDLP, the UUP and the Alliance Party in Stormont. Our discussions focused on how best to work together to achieve the best possible outcome for Ireland and Northern Ireland in the context of the forthcoming negotiations and discussions on Brexit.
It did not prove possible to meet representatives of the DUP on this occasion. However, I will be attending the Remembrance Sunday service in Enniskillen on Sunday together with the First Minister, Arlene Foster, MLA. I also expect to meet the First Minister in Dublin in advance of the North-South Ministerial Council which takes place in Armagh on 18 November.
I will also attend the British-Irish Council meeting later this month - I believe in Cardiff - where I will have the opportunity to meet the leaders of the devolved administrations as we continue our work on the implications of Brexit for all member administrations.
I thank the Taoiseach for his answer. Everybody who attended the all-Ireland civic dialogue was aware of the absence of the Unionists, from both the DUP and the UUP. It was also clear that if we are to have a consensus approach it is important that their input is facilitated in whatever way we need to devise to ensure they are comfortable to bring those influences into a dialogue or a discussion. The Taoiseach has had discussions with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on the best way to do that to ensure we have a joined-up approach to dealing with issues. Everyone has outlined a myriad of issues, but the single biggest issue is trade. I am struck by the blind optimism that I hear from every British voice about the inevitability of a trade deal, although they have an embargo, if one likes, on the notion of the free movement of people. I believe this is blindly optimistic and it will have detrimental effects on this island.
During a recent trip by the British Prime Minister to India to do a trade deal, the Indian Prime Minister, Mr. Modi, linked access of Indian workers and students as part of trade. It was suggested by The Observer that the post-Brexit India-UK trade deal has now suffered a hammer blow. The more dialogue the United Kingdom has with other third countries the more it will find that it is not so easy to deal with trade issues. We need to have our view as to how we can secure our linkages into the British market. That means having a joined-up view from the island of Ireland, meaning we need to work out how to get the DUP and the UUP involved.
We have only 11 minutes left and we will try to get the Taoiseach's reply, if everybody co-operates.
Has the Taoiseach spoken to the Northern Ireland deputy First Minister on the proposal aired in the newspapers in recent days? The current legal indications are that a vote on Brexit will be required in the British Parliament and that is likely to be very close. Many MPs from Scotland and England who have attended various meetings have very strongly indicated their view and expectation that there will be a vote. Has the Taoiseach asked the Northern Ireland deputy First Minister in the event of such a vote being called - a very important vote - if Sinn Féin MPs will take their seats in Westminster and vote in favour of the interests of the whole island of Ireland?
In our discussions so far and the many question and answer sessions with the Taoiseach here, there has been a very strong approach by all the parties, including Sinn Féin, to an all-island approach.
I was a little surprised to see a Member of the European Parliament denouncing the idea without even giving it any consideration in terms of what the advantages might be. At times parties do have to act in the national interest and in the interests of the island. Has the Taoiseach had an opportunity to discuss that issue with the deputy First Minister?
I turn to what will happen when Mrs. May triggers Article 50. This is something on which we have to have legal advice from the Attorney General. What will happen to the European Union's legal relationships with the United Kingdom? We are given to understand that once the United Kingdom triggers Article 50, there will be no going back. Clearly, the court case may result in prolonged discussions, but essentially - as can be seen from the ESRI's report yesterday - it looks like Britain will be out of the European Union by 2019. Perhaps the Taoiseach might let me know if he has heard anything from the deputy First Minister and whether the island of Ireland's interests will be put first? I know that when elections were last held, it was not expected that the people of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, would vote for Brexit, but it may be important to utilise all the votes on the island of Ireland in the interests of all the people on the island of Ireland.
I very much welcome the invitation from the Newry chambers and the decision to hold a meeting of the civic dialogue there. That is very good. Unlike the Labour Party, Sinn Féin sticks to its electoral mandate. We were not elected - it was my great honour to represent the people of Belfast for a long time - to take our seats in the British Parliament. It is a foreign parliament; it is not our parliament and we owe no allegiance to the English Queen. However, we wish her and the people of Britain well. We have been part of developing new relationships between the people of this island, with our Unionist friends and the Government in London, but that is another day's business.
Is that a "No"?
I think so.
The Taoiseach was enumerating what we did and did not know. One of the things we know but which he did not say is that Brexit will reshape the arrangements and relationships between the peoples of these islands, on this island and between us and the European Union. We talk about the national interest and an all-island vision. We need to stand by the vote of the people in the North. We need to ensure and argue for options other than Brexit. We need to argue for special designated status for the North within the European Union. Much of what the Government is arguing for is concessions for the North outside the European Union. That is not acceptable and does not show the imagination and vision required, especially if I go back to my primary point, that Brexit will reshape arrangements and relationships. Do we stick with the status quo, the old partitionist field entity, or do we look at other possibilities to move forward? I commend that approach and have done so, as has the deputy First Minister, not least because that is the result of the decision, democratically made, of folks in the Six Counties. I also remind the Taoiseach - I am sure he is sick listening to me make this point - that he has a responsibility above and beyond that of the Taoiseach and the Government which is co-equal guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement. The last North-South Ministerial Council-----
Time, please.
Beidh mé críochnaithe i gceann bomaite. The joint communiqué following the July meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council states: "We agreed to work together to ensure that Northern Ireland’s interests are protected and advanced and the benefits of North/South co-operation are fully recognised in any new arrangements which emerge as regards the United Kingdom’s future relationship with the European Union". The Government, therefore, has a responsibility under point 17 of Strand Two of the Good Friday Agreement-----
The Deputy's time is up.
-----to represent the views of the North-South Ministerial Council. The Taoiseach has the result of the vote, responsibilities under the Good Friday Agreement and also the responsibilities of a member state.
I accept that Sinn Féin has had a strong view for a long time on abstentionism at Westminster. It is, however, a very curious form of abstentionism because its members have never abstained from taking salaries or expenses at Westminster, or the Saxon shilling. They take the money and run, or they do not actually go over at all but still take the money. I read that a couple of million had been pocketed by Sinn Féin over a couple of years at Westminster that Sinn Féin wants to have nothing to do with. A pure, principled form of abstention would have seen it abstain from all aspects of the Westminster Parliament, but that is the view of-----
The Deputy would be an expert on principles.
Equally - I believe it is true - it is extraordinary hypocrisy. On the one hand, it is abstaining for the optics that nobody-----
The Deputy should look in the mirror.
We dealt with the issue of abstentionism in 1927 in the second election.
What about the confidence and supply arrangement?
Come on; focus.
I believe the decision of the DUP to abstain from being represented at the forum was also a mistake.
Then contest with the DUP in the North.
One speaker at a time, please.
I also believe the tone at the DUP conference was not constructive. To describe anybody scared of the impact of the Brexit vote as "remoaners" was dismissive. It showed a basic refusal to engage with the realities. If one listened to people at the forum, they were very worried. They were from the third level sector, the academic sector, businesses and the farming community in the context of the the CAP ultimately. Hardly anyone is cheering from the sidelines and even those who voted for Brexit realise deep down that there will be a real impact. It was not the right tone for the First Minister to set. She said her relationship with Dublin was great, but the Taoiseach did not meet her last week. There does not appear to be any urgency to the relationship between the First Minister and the Government in Dublin. It is now four months since the referendum on Brexit and the level of direct contact has been ridiculously small, either for the political optics from the DUP's perspective or from what else I do not know, but something needs to change. The issue is too serious for the people on the island of Ireland to have that low level of contact; it is at the same level it was before the vote. Perhaps the Taoiseach might indicate if it is the DUP's demand that Brexit be discussed at the North-South Ministerial Council. If it is, we have to make sure the council will meet more often than it does. Does the Taoiseach accept that the twice a year format is clearly not adequate and has he requested a new timetable for meetings of the council? Has he requested specific work plans from the sectoral committees of the council on Brexit? Such plans would be very important.
I add my voice to those of the other speakers who have said to the Sinn Féin leadership that it should consider doing the unthinkable. This is not an ordinary time. Nothing would reflect this fact better than its presence at Westminster to defend the Good Friday Agreement. Deputy Gerry Adams is absolutely right - we all have an obligation to do this. What message would be sent if Sinn Féin members did attend the Parliament at Westminster to act in that way? We would very much commend them for and support them in doing so. There would be no one slagging them for giving up their electorate if they were to do so as these are unusual times.
Will the Taoiseach also stand up for the Good Friday Agreement by supporting the other legal case taken by Mr. Stephen Agnew, the leader of the Green Party in Northern Ireland, with Assembly Members from Sinn Féin, the Alliance Party and the SDLP, as well as others, which was heard in the High Court in Belfast? I hope I am not infringing judicial propriety, but there was a very conservative judgment which I argue, if reinforced in the Supreme Court where the case is due to be heard in early December, would seriously infringe on the rights of Irish nationalism.
Will the Taoiseach, similar to the Scots and Welsh administrations, take a direct interest in that case, recognising that we do have a direct constitutional interest in the Brexit process, particularly in defending the rights set out in the Good Friday Agreement? I have a real fear that this case, if it is not argued sufficiently or won, could lead to a diminution of the Good Friday Agreement without us having any say on it. Will the Taoiseach seek legal representation for the Government in it?
There are only three minutes left in the game.
There are only 30 seconds. We are in overtime.
To answer Deputy Brendan Howlin, I did meet Mr. Mike Nesbitt, leader of the UUP, and he presented me with a document. The basis of his party's argument is the protection and progress of the economy of Northern Ireland and the good relationships it has with the Republic. The Deputy pointed to the various statements coming from elements in Britain which caused a deal of uncertainty. I hope that, as time marches on, there will be greater clarity. As the Deputy is well aware, the agri-sector and business in general are intrinsically linked with the UK market. Between the North and the South there is a market for beef, pork, dairy, milk and all other products. It has been a seamless operation for many years. A point was made to me in Newry and Carlingford the other day about the situation that applied when there was real trouble with security along the Border. Of the 200 roads leading into Northern Ireland, 18 were approved, while the others were blown up on either side. That is the way it remained for 30 years. No one wants to go back to a situation which remotely approaches this.
Deputy Joan Burton mentioned speaking to the deputy First Minister. I do not speak for the Sinn Féin Party. Its president has answered that question for the Deputy. It will not take its seats in the House of Commons-----
Would the Taoiseach like it to do so?
-----although, as Deputies Joan Burton and Eamon Ryan said, the situation is unprecedented. Secretary of State Davis responded yesterday to questions in the House of Commons about the common travel area and what Brexit might mean for our citizens. He has proposed to write in detail about the preservation of these benefits, on which I agreed with the Prime Minister when I met her.
It was made very clear to me in Stormont by the SDLP that we had voted here in a referendum on Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution on the territorial claim to Northern Ireland and that, if and when Britain left the European Union in 2019, the negotiations - I referred to this issue at the Magill school - should cater for a situation where the people of Ireland, North and South, wished to see a united Ireland, in the same way as happened when East Germany was assimilated into West Germany. This is an issue that was raised specifically with me and it is something which should be part of the negotiations which should be far seeing enough if that were ever to transpire to be the case.
Brexit will reshape the relationship between the islands. When I spoke to Sinn Féin, obviously with the leader and the deputy First Minister, two issues were raised. One concerned an alternative strategy, while the other concerned special status. Whether they would be the same is a matter for discussion. We have a situation where we have a special status in Northern Ireland. It is the only peace process in the European Union that is supported by the Union. It will be the only land border in the European Union with the United Kingdom if and when it actually leaves the Union. On top of this, the process is embellished by the United States and the European Union with PEACE funds and INTERREG funds, through cross-Border activities, health and education co-operation. I point out to the House that letters of offer have issued in respect of INTERREG and PEACE funds and that 17 major projects will continue, as we expect, in the coming years with substantial moneys from the European Union. We want to see this special status, these special circumstances and particular benefits continuing. This is an issue we need to discuss in the context of whether it is the right strategy to follow. It should be, as it would be easier to do this than to try to develop something entirely new.
Deputy Micheál Martin referred to the North-South Ministerial Council. I agree that establishing it was a very good idea. The Deputy has been in attendance at meetings-----
I think we all agree that it was a good idea.
Many issues which might not have been of great international significance have been dealt with quickly. In this case, it might be necessary to look again at what we need to do in the context of North-South relationships and the island approach to the negotiations in respect of our contact with the United Kingdom and this country's place in the European Union. The meeting in Armagh will be chaired by the First Minister and the DUP and Government members will attend. There will be a special meeting before it to synchronise the issues raised, Minister to Minister, which are important in terms of the sectoral and thematic discussions. The sectoral committees are working on their programmes which I expect to be finalised before 18 November. We need a schedule in respect of North-South relations and Brexit for the North-South Ministerial Council, as the case might be. I do not disagree with the Deputy. It might be necessary to hold a couple of special meetings as needs be, perhaps every quarter, to update and see how things are progressing in the discussions and negotiations.
To answer Deputy Eamon Ryan, we will have an interest in the court case that is taking place. I will speak to the ambassador, Mr. Mulhall, in seeing to it that it is properly covered. As I stated, Secretary of State Davis announced yesterday in the House of Commons that he would write in detail about the protection of the benefits arising from the common travel area which have applied since the 1920s and which we do not want to lose.
