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Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 30 May 2017

Tuesday, 30 May 2017

Questions (10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)

Joan Burton

Question:

10. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Mr. Michel Barnier on 11 May 2017. [24018/17]

View answer

Gerry Adams

Question:

11. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his engagement with European chief negotiator, Mr. Michel Barnier, on 11 May 2017. [24271/17]

View answer

Brendan Howlin

Question:

12. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Mr. Michel Barnier. [24370/17]

View answer

Stephen Donnelly

Question:

13. Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly asked the Taoiseach the number of meetings that have taken place between his Department and sherpas of other member states since the triggering of Article 50; and the issues discussed in these meetings. [24372/17]

View answer

Seán Haughey

Question:

14. Deputy Seán Haughey asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the commitment in his own Department's strategy statement regarding focus on cross-divisional and cross-departmental working; the way this applies to Brexit and the way his own Department officials interact with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in view of the fact it has responsibility for diplomatic exchanges with diplomats of Ireland's EU partners. [24719/17]

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Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

15. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Mr. Michel Barnier when he was in Dublin. [25676/17]

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Gerry Adams

Question:

16. Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach if his Department’s officials have held meetings with national government representatives in Brussels since the triggering of Article 50 on 29 April 2017; and, if so, the issues discussed at these meetings and the number of meetings held. [25890/17]

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Eamon Ryan

Question:

17. Deputy Eamon Ryan asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meetings with Mr. Michel Barnier. [25981/17]

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Oral answers (50 contributions)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 to 17, inclusive, together.

I met with Mr. Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator for Brexit, in Government Buildings on Thursday 11 May. I was accompanied by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and the Minister of State for European affairs. The meeting provided an opportunity, following the European Council's adoption of the EU negotiating guidelines and in advance of agreement on the more detailed negotiating directives, to thank Mr. Barnier for his openness to Ireland in relation to our particular concerns arising from Brexit and to highlight our thoughts about the process ahead.

We discussed the serious implications in relation to peace and stability in Northern Ireland and the Border, and for the Irish economy, particularly the fisheries and agrifood sector. I commended Mr. Barnier on his address to the Oireachtas that morning and expressed confidence in his ability to negotiate on behalf of the EU 27 and to take account of Ireland's particular concerns.

Mr. Barnier stressed the complexities of the issues involved in the negotiations and outlined his intention to be firm but fair. He committed to ensuring that the task force remains accessible to all Member States and especially to Ireland, given our unique concerns.

There is ongoing daily engagement on Brexit and on other EU issues between the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and, indeed, with the permanent representation in Brussels and our network of missions across the EU, with a view to ensuring a comprehensive approach to EU affairs. There is also of course ongoing interaction across all Government Departments on the range of EU issues, including through regular meetings of the senior officials group on the EU and the inter-departmental group on Brexit, which is chaired by the second Secretary General in my Department.

This is consistent with the approach set out in my Department's statement of strategy, which identified the need for a whole-of-government approach to the Brexit negotiations.

The second Secretary General also acts as Ireland's sherpa and, in this capacity, meets and engages regularly with his EU counterparts. Since the triggering of Article 50 on 29 March, there have been two formal sherpa meetings under the Article 50 format, one on 11 April and another on 24 April. Ireland participated fully in both of these.

The discussions focused on the EU negotiating guidelines, which were subsequently agreed by the European Council on 29 April.

The negotiations on Brexit, which will be conducted by the Commission, will be guided by the European Council in its Article 50 format, that is, the heads of state and government of the 27 member states.

In addition, Ministers at the General Affairs Council now also discuss issues relating to Brexit in the Article 50 format.

At official level, the Committee of Permanent Representatives in the European Union, COREPER, and the new working party are also meeting at 27 to discuss issues relating to Brexit. COREPER meets on a weekly basis. The new working party first met on 23 May and it is expected to meet twice a week from now on. Of course, there are also daily meetings of working groups on the full range of EU issues and these groups include representatives of all member states, including Ireland.

There are eight Deputies in this cluster. If we could limit contributions to one minute each, we would get through everyone.

Will we go around first-----

We will go around first and come back.

The British Prime Minister, Theresa May, is again referencing a hard Brexit or indeed no deal if the British fail to get a deal from their discussions. This makes the decision of the Government, if the Taoiseach can confirm it, to sell off a significant portion of AIB for something like €3 billion and apply that €3 billion under the un-amended fiscal rules to the writing down of something like a point on the national debt all the more extraordinary. This is an entirely futile exercise in the context of the economy growing and the debt reducing. In his discussions with Michel Barnier, did the Taoiseach look for special arrangements relating to Ireland in the case of no deal or a very difficult Brexit whereby we would get additional resources and a specific change in the fiscal rules? The Government has put forward the barmy idea of using the AIB money to unnecessarily pay down the national debt instead of investing in our roads, public transport, schools, housing and hospitals. The Government's decision is mind boggling and a disgraceful use of resources the Irish people paid for at great cost.

Yesterday, Michel Barnier published two documents relating to Brexit negotiations. The first deals with essential principles on citizens' rights and covers the protection of EU citizens' rights and British nationals following Brexit. This is the one on which I will concentrate. The paper on citizens' rights sets out the protections EU wants to secure for nearly 5 million people who will be affected by Brexit, including Irish citizens in Northern Ireland. The document stresses that the European Court of Justice must have full jurisdiction for ruling on disputes about citizens' rights while the European Commission ought to have full powers for monitoring whether the British Government is upholding that part of the bargain. The British Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, David Davis, has already railed against this. Can the Taoiseach confirm when the Irish Government will discuss these papers with our EU partners and whether the Government has any amendments or proposed amendments to these papers? According to the EU, further policy papers are expected in the next few days. Will the Government agree to distribute all such papers? Colum Eastwood, the leader of the SDLP, has called for a referendum on a united Ireland following Brexit. Will the Taoiseach join me in welcoming this?

The Government promised to publish a new paper on economic and tax issues relating to Brexit. When will we see this publication? I have a brief question relating to the very worrying position that was repeated last night in the British general election debate that the likely outcome of the hard line taken by the UK will be no deal. Have our officials produced any scoping of what the consequences of this scenario will be? In respect of the UK declaration that it also wants to hold on to the EU agencies currently sited in the UK, is this a possibility? What is the formal view of this Government and the EU in that regard?

My question was not about Michel Barnier but the level of meetings that have been held between Irish officials and their counterparts in other member states. Since I posed that question, new information has emerged from the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation on the number of officials. It turns out that when we look at the number of officials who have been hired, we can see that we have hired less than one quarter of the allocation. The allocation was not enough to begin with. IDA Ireland was allocated ten Brexit staff but it turns out that it has hired one. Enterprise Ireland was allocated 39 Brexit staff but has hired just 12. Science Foundation Ireland was allocated three but has yet to hire a single person. The Health and Safety Authority was allocated two but has yet to hire a single person. Of the 54 Brexit officials the Government has given sanction to hire, only 13 have been hired. This is less than one quarter. As Deputy Howlin pointed out, we are moving closer and closer to no deal and need to start scenario planning around what a cliff would look like. Can the Taoiseach tell the House why, given the severity of Brexit and the mounting materiality of Ireland hitting a cliff, the State agencies tasked with dealing with this have hired less than one quarter of the already insufficient allocation they were given?

I appreciate that the Government has published the document entitled "Ireland and the negotiations on the UK's withdrawal from the European Union - The Government's Approach". This document sets out the sectoral consequences of Brexit. The list is endless with regard to agriculture; fishing rights; trade issues generally; transport and aviation; tourism; health, including treatment abroad; education, including the recognition of qualifications; financial services; data protection; global security; the common travel area, including social welfare and pension rights; the single electricity market; used car imports; cross-Border crime; and research and development. On and on it goes. Is the Taoiseach satisfied that there is co-ordination between Departments? Even at this late stage, does he not think we need a Brexit Minister to co-ordinate the response across Government Departments and among the different sectors affected by Brexit?

We all know Theresa May is an absolute horror and is trying to use the exit vote to pursue her little Englander, anti-immigrant-----

Is the microphone on?

We can hear the Deputy.

I would like to be heard. We all know Theresa May is an absolute horror who is trying to use the exit vote to pursue her little Englander, anti-immigrant, hard-line austerity agenda. However, when Monsieur Barnier was here, he gave fairly strong indications that the EU is also going to play political games on the issue of exit - talking about how there must be consequences for exiting the EU. I put it to the Taoiseach that between the horror of Theresa May and the politicking of the EU, this country is piggy in the middle in a political game between these two blocs. The question is whether the Taoiseach is going to stand up to this politicking and demand that we have a say in whatever deal or arrangement they come up with. It is clear that neither Theresa May nor the EU gives a damn, or are cavalier, about the consequences of their approach to the exit negotiations on this country. They clearly do not give a hoot about the Border or the common travel area and are playing politics. Are we going to demand a referendum on the final deal? I ask this question very seriously. Are we going to demand a veto on any deal they hatch or that impacts on us and does not suit us in respect of the issues on which there is consensus North and South?

Monsieur Barnier made it very clear when he was here that while there would be flexibility on the issue of the movement of people on this island and indeed between Ireland and the rest of the UK, there would be no movement or even talks in the first stage of talks about the issue of trade in services and goods between ourselves, Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Does the Taoiseach agree that there are no negotiations in the first phase about how we deal with trade of goods and services? Given that the British Prime Minister again last night went back to the "no deal is better than a bad deal" scenario, will the Taoiseach or his successor insist that this issue - that the UK Secretary of State, Mr. David Davis says is going to be the row of the summer - should be raised at the June council on 22 June so that we can have our Irish interests represented immediately rather than waiting for events to unfold? Will the Taoiseach put trade issues with regard to the Border on the June council agenda, or would he recommend his successor do so, to ensure that they are not ignored?

Deputy Burton raised the question of AIB. The Minister for Finance has taken a lead role on this. Under EU fiscal rules, the proceeds of any sale may not be used to fund increased expenditure irrespective of whether such expenditure is classified as current or as capital. On the accounting treatment of any proceeds from such a transaction, the position is that the sale of such financial assets does not result in a beneficial impact to the general Government balance under EUROSTAT rules. This is because it is classified as a financial transaction whereby it is essentially the exchange of one form of assets, such as shares, for another kind, such as cash. Consequently, the sale of any share-holding in a bank would not count as general Government revenue, and would not create any scope for increased spending on the basis of the proceeds that are realised. There will be no increased capacity for spending following any sale of bank shares. The Minister for Finance will make his decision on this matter in the next 48 hours.

Was it decided by Government today?

The Minister informed the Government of his process to this point. He expects he will keep Government informed and that he expects to make a decision in the next 48 hours.

So that will be a payday for bankers?

While not improving the deficit-----

That is the sad part. I have not even heard how much those in AIB have compared to the Irish people.

-----cash proceeds from the sale of bank shares would result in a reduced requirement for Exchequer borrowing, which ultimately results in lower debt. A lower debt level is not only beneficial for the fiscal sustainability of the State, but will also lead to reduced interest payments in future years. It is crucial that increases in funding for public investment are based on sustainable economic growth, and the Government is well aware of the challenges that arose in the past when one-off amounts of money were used to fund ongoing commitments to the State.

This is not a once-off matter.

Deputy Gerry Adams raised the question of papers produced by Mr. Barnier in respect of citizens' rights. We are engaged with Brussels and London on a daily basis about all of these matters. The Government will respond to the papers and they can be debated here. I note the Deputy's comment about Mr. Colum Eastwood, MLA, and the united Ireland referendum. I do not believe that the conditions are right for it at the moment but I was happy that the European Council reflected carefully on the visionaries who put their words together on the Good Friday Agreement such that, if that process ever happens and people decide to have a democratic vote by consent to join the Republic, the entire island becomes a full member of the European Union, irrespective of the decision to leave as part of Britain under the Brexit negotiations.

Deputy Brendan Howlin raised the question of the EU agencies here. Clearly, Ireland has applied for both of them, as other countries have. These are European agencies that will be based in a European country. We are competing with Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Luxembourg for the financial one and with other countries for the medical agency and we will compete strongly for those. We tick many of the relevant boxes. That will eventually be decided by the European Council, probably in the autumn.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly raised the level of meetings in the negotiations. These negotiations have not begun at all yet. All we are doing is setting out the strategy and groundwork, and we have those principles established. When the Deputy says that the IDA and Enterprise Ireland have not taken up all of the approved numbers, they will be employed as needs be, and outside expertise will be employed if necessary. The negotiations have not begun in detail yet. The Deputy also spoke about what he termed "mounting materiality", which is not a common phrase used down in the country, I have to say. In any event, there is a daily contact going on about all of these issues. As needs be, the staff and personnel will be recruited, and if expertise is needed, that will also be recruited.

Deputy Seán Haughey mentioned co-ordination between Departments. There is co-ordination on a daily basis. On having a Minister with responsibility for Brexit, I made the point before that the decisions are made by the European Council. If a Brexit Minister was appointed, he or she could not even attend the General Affairs Council, which makes the initial preparatory decisions before they go to the European Council. Let us say that Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett becomes the Brexit Minister, he cannot attend the General Affairs Council, he cannot attend at the European Council-----

He would not want to.

-----so what is he doing? One puts the responsibility on those who make the decision. At the end of the day, it is the European Council.

Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the matter of the veto. We have a veto because it has to be approved eventually by the entire European Council. Ireland has a veto, along with every other country if they so wish, and that is contained clearly within the rules and regulations. If at the end of the day, when it is all over and done with, and a proposition comes - the European Parliament will have its say - to the European Council, if Ireland is not in agreement, Ireland has a veto, the same as everybody else-----

No, it does not.

Of all the countries-----

No, it does not.

Is the Taoiseach sure about that?

Yes, our priorities are set out, very clearly, and backed unanimously by the other 26, which I think is important.

Will we exercise it?

Let us see what happens. There is a British election on at the moment-----

It would help if Mr. Jeremy Corbyn won. The Taoiseach should say that.

-----and there is much talk about hard Brexits and cliffs and all the rest of it-----

(Interruptions).

Unless the Council has decided otherwise-----

-----but what the British Government wants is the closest possible relationship with the European Union, which includes us. If one is going to have the closest possible relationship, one has to be able to deal with the question of the British Government leaving the Single Market and the changed status-----

Would it not be better if Mr. Jeremy Corbyn got in?

(Interruptions).

-----of its trading relationship. That is what the negotiations are about.

We will have to have another session. We are moving on to foreign affairs.

I will finally address what Deputy Eamon Ryan said-----

He is coming up on Ms Theresa May. That will put the cat among the pigeons.

-----about why we cannot move on to discuss these things as needs be. We have inserted a clause that if substantial progress is being made on the principal issues here-----

But Deputy Boyd Barrett is in favour of Brexit.

-----on the modalities, principals and liabilities, the question of reciprocal rights for citizens and the question of the Border-----

I am in favour of Mr. Jeremy Corbyn, not the Blairites.

The Deputy is in favour of-----

(Interruptions).

If these matters are making substantial progress, people would be inclined to talk about the issues the Deputy mentioned.

(Interruptions).
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