Cabinet Committees

Tuesday, 13 December 2022

Questions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)

Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

1. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with agriculture will next meet. [57559/22]

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Ivana Bacik

Question:

2. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment will next meet. [58885/22]

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Mary Lou McDonald

Question:

3. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on economic recovery will next meet. [59151/22]

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Jackie Cahill

Question:

4. Deputy Jackie Cahill asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with agriculture will next meet. [59153/22]

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Ivana Bacik

Question:

5. Deputy Ivana Bacik asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with agriculture will next meet. [58890/22]

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Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

6. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on transport will next meet. [59252/22]

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Aindrias Moynihan

Question:

7. Deputy Aindrias Moynihan asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with agriculture will next meet. [59341/22]

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Paul Murphy

Question:

8. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on transport will next meet. [59255/22]

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Brendan Smith

Question:

9. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with agriculture will next meet. [59342/22]

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Bríd Smith

Question:

10. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on transport will next meet. [59258/22]

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Michael Moynihan

Question:

11. Deputy Michael Moynihan asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with agriculture will next meet. [59343/22]

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Cian O'Callaghan

Question:

12. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on economic recovery will next meet. [60871/22]

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Peadar Tóibín

Question:

13. Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment will next meet. [60881/22]

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Peadar Tóibín

Question:

14. Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with agriculture will next meet. [60882/22]

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Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

Question:

15. Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor asked the Taoiseach which Cabinet committee deals with transport; and when it will meet next. [60895/22]

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Cormac Devlin

Question:

16. Deputy Cormac Devlin asked the Taoiseach which Cabinet committee deals with transport; and when it will meet next. [60896/22]

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Oral answers (42 contributions)

The Taoiseach

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 16, inclusive, together.

The Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment first met on 8 July 2020. It has met on 23 occasions, most recently on 28 November. The next meeting has not yet been scheduled.

Membership of the committee comprises the Taoiseach; the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment; the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, and Transport; the Minister for Finance; the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform; and the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. Other Ministers or Ministers of State attend when required.

The Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment is responsible for issues relating to the economy and investment. The Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment had an initial focus on developing the July jobs stimulus and has since overseen the development of the Government's economic recovery plan, as well as the review of the national development plan. It has overseen the development of the Government's national digital strategy. Regular updates and analysis of economic developments are also provided at these meetings.

Issues relevant to agriculture can arise, as required, at a number of Cabinet committees. This includes the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment but can also include other Cabinet committees, such as the Cabinet committee on the environment and climate change. The agriculture sector is the largest indigenous industry in the country and has a key role to play in the economic and social vibrancy of our towns, villages and rural communities, as well as in achieving our decarbonisation targets for 2030 and 2050. The Government works closely with all stakeholders in the sector on key challenges facing the agriculture sector.

In July, the Government reached agreement on sectoral emissions ceilings, including for the agriculture sector. The emissions ceiling for agriculture has been set at a level requiring a 25% reduction in emissions below 2018 levels for the period to 2030. Further work is ongoing to finalise a sectoral emissions ceiling for the land use, land use change and forestry sector.

The revised climate action plan is at an advanced stage of preparation to ensure that the actions it contains are sufficient to meet the reduction targets that have now been made explicit. While openly acknowledging that achieving these targets will be challenging, and that agriculture has a central role in this effort by virtue of its share of Ireland's overall emissions, the carbon budgets and sectoral emissions ceilings are an essential framework to guide our efforts. No sector is, or can be, unaffected by this shared, all-encompassing but necessary transition.

We will continue to support all sectors through this transition. In October, Government approved the Common Agricultural Policy strategic plan for the period from 2023 to 2027. This will provide almost €10 billion of support to farmers and rural communities, with a specific focus on the contribution of agriculture to environmental and climate goals. This funding, including carbon tax funding ring-fenced for environmental actions, will support sustainable farming practices in Ireland.

Issues relevant to the transport sector can arise, as required, at a number of Cabinet committees, most notably the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and investment. As outlined in the national development plan, the Government is clear in our commitment to deliver quality transport infrastructure and services in a way that addresses the objectives of compact, sustainable growth and regional connectivity and meets our climate and environmental targets.

As with all policy areas, agriculture, transport and economic issues are regularly discussed at full Government meetings, where all formal decisions are made.

An Ceann Comhairle

Given the number of questions grouped together, we will not get them done in ten minutes. Can we take ten minutes from the remaining two blocks of questions to assist us to get through these?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Let us see how we get on.

An Ceann Comhairle

Alternatively, we could allow 30 seconds per question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I suggest we see how we get on because the two other groupings are shorter.

An Ceann Comhairle

All right.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

However, we should give extra time to this grouping.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can give an extra ten minutes to this one.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Three years ago, the Dáil voted in favour of a Sinn Féin motion which described the proposed Mercosur trade agreement as a bad deal for Ireland and for the planet. Both Fianna Fáil and the Green Party supported that motion, which mandated future governments to reject this deal at a European level. This agreement would flood the European market with 100,000 tonnes of South American beef produced at a cost of up to twice the carbon footprint of Irish beef. As the Taoiseach knows, the European Ombudsman found that the Commission's failure to complete a sustainability impact assessment of the agreement constituted maladministration. The Tánaiste said the Government is seeking further enforceable commitments, as he called them, regarding climate and deforestation while Brazil has announced an expansion of its production equivalent to Ireland's national herd by 2031. Surely Brazil can provide no commitment sufficient to allay the insurmountable unsustainability of this deal. When the Taoiseach attends the European Council later this week, I ask him to formally communicate Ireland's opposition and make it clear that we will neither support nor ratify this deeply flawed agreement.

Deputy Ivana Bacik

The Taoiseach again referred to the revised climate action plan due to be brought before Cabinet next week after the Dáil has risen.

I reiterate the concern I expressed earlier about the delay in the publication of this climate action plan. Indeed, it feels like Groundhog Day because the sectoral emissions ceilings earlier this year were not published until the Dáil had risen for the summer recess. There seems to be almost a strategy of delaying publication of these essential documents seeking to ensure that we meet our climate targets until after the Oireachtas has risen, thereby depriving us of the necessary scrutiny and debate. I renew an appeal to the Taoiseach to ensure that we will be publishing these climate action plans in the future in better time and not with the sort of delays we have seen to date.

I also raise with the Taoiseach a large question about economic investment, one of the largest capital projects of the State, namely, the national children's hospital. We have seen that the final bill, while still unknown, is likely to exceed €2 billion.

On the issue of the hospital itself, I am aware that the Taoiseach will be aware of the campaign to name the hospital after Dr. Kathleen Lynn. I lend my support to that campaign as Dr. Lynn was a suffragette and active participants in some of the key movements leading to the foundation of our State. We unveiled a portrait to her in the corridors of this House in the past week, a very worthy portrait. She was a trailblazer in so many ways, not least in her founding of St. Ultan's Children's Hospital in my constituency of Dublin Bay South back in 1919, and in her work to tackle poverty and disadvantage, especially for children. There could be no better person after whom to name the children's hospital than Dr. Lynn. We have named too many public buildings after men and I appeal to the Taoiseach, on his last session of Taoiseach’s Questions, to lend his support to the campaign to name the hospital after Dr. Kathleen Lynn.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

There have been many reports in recent weeks on different sectors in farming. I am extremely worried about the focus of these reports. Any change in policy which impacts our ability to produce sustainable food will be termed a failure. We have the modern technology which can allow us to achieve our emissions reduction and we cannot hinder our production base because that will ruin the foundation on which our agrifood industry is based.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

On 9 April 2020, more than 1,000 Debenhams workers received an email telling them they had lost their jobs. The researchers who are making a film about the Debenhams dispute have just uncovered evidence that suggests very strongly that the three vulture funds and a consortium including Bank of Ireland had orchestrated this liquidation precisely one year before in order to get around Irish law. That consortium, including Bank of Ireland, I stress, loaded €200 million of debt onto Debenhams Ireland and the Norwegian branch, which branch was later released from that debt, so the entire debt was loaded onto Debenhams. That debt, however, could not have been enforced against Debenhams Ireland unless one year had passed. Exactly one year to the day after the debt was fixed, the 1,000 workers were sacked. Involved in this was a company headed up by somebody who is an ex-KPMG employee. KPMG was later appointed by Debenhams as the liquidator.

This poses very serious questions about the orchestrated sacrifice of 1,000 jobs in Debenhams and raises questions about what the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment knew when it was notified by KPMG of the liquidation and of the tactical and cynical manipulation of, essentially, the Debenhams group to sacrifice 1,000 workers.

I have sent the Taoiseach the material because I cannot go through it all here and I ask him very seriously to look into this.

The Taoiseach

When did the Deputy send the material to me?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I sent the Taoiseach today the evidence that has been dug up by the researchers making the film about Debenhams, which, by the way, will be shown in the Dublin Theatre Festival in February or March, but they would like some answers in advance of that in respect of who knew what and the role of KPMG, the Bank of Ireland and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in this whole matter.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Did the Government discuss the issue of redress for the 100,000 apartments and duplexes affected by defects at the Cabinet meeting this morning? I know that the Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, had a webinar last night with many apartment and duplex owners. They were not satisfied with that, certainly the ones I spoke to, because there was not a clear commitment to 100% redress, nor was there a clear timeline for having a redress scheme in place, nor was there a clear commitment to retrospection. The Not Our Fault campaign is having a protest tomorrow outside of the Dáil at 7 o’clock in order to press the point home that this 100% redress, with retrospection, is the only just and workable solution. If it was not discussed at Cabinet this morning, and if it is the intention to discuss it next week, is that not quite problematic? Is that not a deliberate attempt to avoid parliamentary debate and public debate by doing it in the week before Christmas, when the Dáil is no longer sitting?

Deputy Brendan Smith

I concur with the comments of my colleague, Deputy Cahill, in respect of the ill-informed commentary that is made sometimes in respect of farm food production and its contribution to climate change. Thankfully, over many decades, there has been a very significant investment by the State and by the farming sector in modernising their farming techniques and in lowering emissions. Recently, there was a report from the Food Vision Beef and Sheep Group, and one of its proposals would provide for a sharp reduction in the suckler herd. That is not acceptable under any circumstances. It is a huge contributor to the rural economy and to our export earnings and it is similarly the case with the dairy sector.

Again, the lazy and ill-informed narrative from so many areas in regard to climate change, the role of food production and farming techniques does not take into account that if Europe substantially reduces its food production, then food will be imported from other systems, particularly from South America, where their farming systems are not nearly as sustainable as ours in Europe. We need a balance in this debate and we also need an assurance to the farming community, and to the food industry in general, that it will be able to continue to produce food in such a good and progressive way and that their food production systems will not have to be reduced.

One has to go back to 2009, when we started to grow food exports substantially. Food Harvest 2020 provided for a sharp increase in food production. Let us remember that during the years of a very serious economic downturn, it was that sector which provided very valuable and much-needed employment in every parish in this State.

Deputy Bríd Smith

We all know that the housing shortage is creating a void in respect of the number of workers who are available in essential services like education and health, but this is also true in transport. Thankfully, recently, the Minister for Transport did a U-turn on the insane idea that we need 1 million electric vehicle, EV, cars on the road to replace 1 million petrol cars, with a much greater concentration on public transport.

How does the Government propose to deal with the question of recruitment and retention of bus drivers in Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead Ireland? All three companies are having very significant difficulty retaining bus drivers. The main reason for this - and this has been shown through their unions and in surveys - is that the companies start the drivers on much lower pay compared to their more senior colleagues. The second reason is that the shifts have become very onerous. They have very little work-life balance and time with their families and it does not suit young workers. Will the Government sit down with the National Transport Authority, NTA, and look at the model where companies have to compete with one another for contracts in public transport? That is effectively driving a race to the bottom and causing us to lose, and not to retain, hundreds of young drivers.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

There is a major problem with the market structure in farming at the moment in this State. There are three main elements to that market structure. There are the farmers, then, typically, factories, and then supermarkets. What is happening across a number of product ranges is that the factories and the supermarkets are an oligopoly, which means that they have massive buyer power and can force the prices and the terms and conditions out of the farmers. We saw it in the beef sector, in which they pushed the price of beef below the cost of production for a large number of years, meaning that farmers were making a loss every time they sold a beast.

The same is happening now in pig production and in poultry production, especially in the production of eggs. In Cavan and Monaghan recently, farmers have had to go to supermarkets to protest about the prices they are getting for these products. Will the Government start the process of fixing the market structure in this sector and will it bring about or support the Aontú Bill to prevent the below-cost-of-production sale of agricultural items in this country in order that these two massively powerful elements of the agricultural sector, the factories and the supermarkets, are no longer allowed to abuse the power they have and to force farmers into poverty?

Deputy Cormac Devlin

This is one of the last Taoiseach's questions in this Dáil term. We are now 12 sleeps away from Christmas. Many children, having written their letters to Santa, are anxiously awaiting the arrival of Santa Claus. I know that Santa, Mrs. Claus and all the elves are very busy making all the presents and the arrangements for them to be delivered across the world. Can the Taoiseach confirm that arrangements are in place for Santa and reindeer to enter Irish airspace on Christmas Eve? It is a tough question for the Taoiseach on his last day taking Taoiseach's questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Maybe the Taoiseach would like to start with the last question first. You might not get time otherwise.

The Taoiseach

I wish to confirm, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Santa will be facilitated in terms of access to Irish airspace and our intelligence is that Santa will arrive duly on time for the children of our nation. They may rest assured of that. We may not guarantee a lot of other things, but we will guarantee that most definitively.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Devlin for raising that matter.

Deputy McDonald raised the Mercosur beef deal. I am of the view that the deforestation of the Amazon has been terribly damaging in respect of climate change. I also believe there has to be balance in terms of how the food chain and food production systems across the world work. This will not be on the agenda at this week's meeting of the European Council, but I have certainly made the point at previous meetings that Mercosur is now a real problem given its irreconcilability with sustainability issues. When the motion was passed, President Bolsonaro was leading Brazil with a strong deforestation agenda. It remains to be seen how the new Government will discharge its duties in respect of the Amazon, biodiversity restoration and sustainability more generally.

We have one of the more carbon-efficient food production systems in the world, even within Europe. Therefore, it does not sit well that we would jettison or reduce a relatively carbon-efficient food production system in place of a system that is much worse in terms of climate and sustainability more generally. That debate has to happen a bit more globally than it has to date. It certainly has to happen with the European Union.

Deputy Bacik asked about the climate action plan and sectoral emissions. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, has joined me. I am sure he would agree with me that there is no strategy to arrive with a climate action plan towards the end of the Dáil recess. I can assure the Deputy that in the new Dáil term in January and February, there will be ample time to resolve the matter. Perhaps now is the time to resolve this with all parties present. We will create space for a significant debate on the climate action plan when the Dáil resumes in January. That is the way to approach it. There is no strategy. It is a comprehensive plan that involves huge challenges for society. The issue will be delivering on the plan. There is no attempt to, in any shape or form, prevent the Opposition from debating the plan because we want it to accept the plan in all its challenges. We want Opposition and Government collectively to resolve this and, as a society, to try to change direction and meet the targets contained in the plan. As I said, that will be extremely challenging. Deputy Bacik also raised the issue of Dr. Kathleen Lynn, a leading suffragette and key leader during the revolutionary period. Senators Mary Fitzpatrick and Catherine Ardagh have been strong supporters of the campaign and have urged me to lend my support to it. She would be a very worthy choice in terms of naming the new hospital. A lot would lend favour to naming the hospital after Dr. Kathleen Lynn.

Deputy Cahill raised an important issue in respect of meeting our climate obligations and maintaining a sustainable food production system. Travelling the length and breadth of the country, I have met many farmers who are very keen to fulfil their obligations. From what I can see, they spend a lot of time on this issue unlike other sectors of the economy. They examine it in detail because it is their bottom line in respect of farm enterprises. They want to do things properly and above board. In other words, they do not want to fight it or be told to reach a particular percentage without knowing how to get to that point.

In respect of anaerobic digestion, microgeneration and a range of other schemes, farmers need to see delivery of those to assist them in meeting the targets contained in the new climate action plan. Across the globe, the world is under pressure in terms of food production and security. We need balance in terms of the variety and diversity of our food production system. We need to be careful of over-intensive and monoculture farming. I recently visited Devenish, as did Deputy Cahill, and was struck by how it can develop a carbon-neutral farm with zero emissions in terms of multi-species swards, better quality soil and so on. Farmers are willing to adapt to new technologies to improve and render our food production systems more carbon-efficient. That is the challenge.

Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the issue of Debenhams. I do not have access to that material. He acknowledged that he sent it to me today but I have been in the Chamber for most of the day. It is not possible to address that. I will look at the issue and talk to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Deputy needs to be clear. There is no agenda in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to be involved in any shape or form in any conspiracy to liquidate any company that will involve the loss of 1,000 jobs.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Did they look into it?

The Taoiseach

I thought there was an implication in the Deputy's presentation that there might have been.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

A failure of oversight.

The Taoiseach

We will examine all that. I want to see the material. I cannot comment until I see it.

In response to Deputy Murphy, there were 46 items on the Cabinet agenda today. The Minister has made it clear that he wants to publish his proposals in advance of Christmas. There is a session of Dáil Éireann in January and February. There will be ample time for Deputies to discuss this issue with those most involved, namely, apartment owners and residents, in respect of redress for apartments and defects. The Minister has been very clear on this and has committed to it. He undertook a review and so forth and he will publish the details of the redress scheme very quickly. It is to be hoped he will be in a position to bring it to Cabinet next week.

Deputy Smith joined with Deputy Cahill in respect of our food production system and broader system and the need to grow the industry sustainably. Over the past decade or so the dairy industry has grown exponentially from where it was when quotas were removed. That has to be factored in. Around the Border area in Cavan-Monaghan there are some very innovative entrepreneurs involved in food production, in particular poultry. I discovered that Silver Hill Duck is the dish of choice in Singapore.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Discerning people.

The Taoiseach

There are discerning people in Singapore. There is no doubt about that. Apparently, it lends itself culturally and so on to the method of cooking there.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Just one of many products.

The Taoiseach

Absolutely.

Deputy Bríd Smith raised the issue of the shortage of transport workers, in particular bus drivers, in terms of pay levels. In terms of the broader issue, there has been an expansion of services which has to be factored in. Our population is growing and there are normal industrial relations practices which facilitate terms and conditions in the industry. We should have more EVs in the country, as well as more active travel and public transport in parallel with that.

Deputy Tóibín must be aware that the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, published an ombudsman Bill which is designed to provide price transparency in the agricultural industry between primary producers, factories and supermarkets. Legislation on below-cost selling is not simple. I know that from experience.