Willie O'Dea
Question:7. Deputy Willie O'Dea asked the Minister for Transport if discussions have taken place between his Department and transport services regarding safety and public order onboard their services. [2229/23]
View answerThursday, 19 January 2023
Questions (7)
Oral answers (8 contributions)
I understand Deputy O'Callaghan is taking Question No. 7 on behalf of Deputy O'Dea.
Everyone in the House wants to encourage more people onto public transport. That is a commitment of the Minister and of the Government. Unfortunately, many people are deterred from going onto public transport, particularly at night time, because they do not feel safe. Have there been any discussions between the Minister’s Department and the transport providers on improving safety? I heard what the Minister said to Deputy O’Rourke about the NTA's antisocial behaviour specialist group but what is the Department doing in respect of it?
I will not reiterate the written response because it would be similar to the response I gave to Deputy O’Rourke. The role of my Department, as the Minister of State mentioned on another issue, is working with the NTA and operators. We meet them regularly. If there is an issue with security, reliability, getting workers or other things, while we do not run the bus service or train system, our aim is to make sure they deliver for the public the quality of service we expect.
The first principle is that people have to feel that they are secure and that they are in a safe place. Where there are problems, they are in specific localities or black spots. By and large, the vast majority of experience on our public transport system is safe, as people would attest. Where it is not, it is a matter not just for the Government. Local representatives have a critical role because they have knowledge and experience of what is happening and represent the local community best. For them to work with the operators and An Garda Síochána directly is the best approach.
What is happening in west Tallaght is totally unacceptable but the resolution to that provides a model that would apply elsewhere. It involves the application of Garda resources in conjunction with the operators, as well as the use of CCTV and other mechanisms. You cannot completely rely on that. CCTV does not protect the driver in the instant. He or she has to have the capability of calling in resources quickly. Our role is to make sure the resources are available. The Minister for Justice is also critical. The Department for Transport has responsibility. That is what we are doing. Communication of the public concern is the first stage.
I thank the Minister for his reply. It is worthwhile that we are discussing this important issue. I agree with him that obviously not all public transport has the threat of criminal activity or antisocial behaviour on it but unfortunately many members of the public are concerned about it.
Last summer, my Fianna Fáil colleagues in Dublin and I did a survey of public transport users. There was a significant response. Over 1,300 people replied. Significantly, nearly 90% of them had experienced or seen antisocial behaviour on public transport. Many of them were supportive of there being a dedicated public transport unit within An Garda Síochána. That is where this policy debate is heading. Nobody thinks all these issues can be resolved immediately but we need to recognise the requirement for a unit within An Garda Síochána to be available to police public transport. It is not the Minister’s bailiwick but does he have an opinion on whether that would be beneficial?
I am slightly nervous because, as the Deputy said, it is an issue for the Minister for Justice and An Garda Síochána. The Deputy is right. I said to Deputy O’Rourke earlier that there is an argument in favour of establishing a unit outside An Garda Síochána, but I do not think that would be appropriate or correct. I recently visited the new control centre in Heuston Station, where the Garda response control unit is cheek by jowl with the rail control centre. That closeness, connection and speed of response is an advantage of using An Garda Síochána, as well as all the powers it has under law. The Garda has other units. The transport department unit is a similar example of a dedicated unit. That should be considered. The justice committee might be well placed to do it and I would happily give my views there. I would not rule it out. I would be supportive but it is a matter for the Minister for Justice to consider first and foremost.
The UK has a separate transport police. I agree with the Minister that it is not a good idea for this country. It would create tensions for An Garda Síochána and the country is not large enough to have a separate independent police force for public transport. However, we need to look for a dedicated unit within An Garda Síochána. This is primarily a matter for the Government and the Minister for Justice. We have a recruitment crisis in An Garda Síochána and I understand why the Commissioner may be hesitant about committing to the establishment of another unit when he has many other demands on resources, but we need to recognise that to see the level of engagement and use of public transport that the Minister and everyone else in the House wants, we have to assure people that when they use it, particularly late at night or on routes some consider dangerous, they will be safe. Unless there is safety for users of public transport, we will not get the increase in usage of it.
I agree with the Deputy. We want to get people onto public transport for so many different reasons and making sure there is a safe environment is critical to that. This is happening. I was on the radio this morning and I mentioned some figures I saw yesterday. I think 80,000 young people have taken up the leap cards and new travel cards. They are taking off.
On the issue of public transport numbers, I met with an international expert on transport who said that what is happening in Ireland is unusual and outside the norm. Most other countries have not seen the scale of return to public transport that we have done post-Covid-19. The public is, therefore, responding. Some 67 towns have new public transport services. New Local Link and Connecting Ireland services have been rolled out across the country. There has been a major expansion in public transport. We want it to be used and it has to be safe. In any discussion on that, those arguments would make the case for the type of unit within An Garda Síochána to which the Deputy refers. We could go into virtuous circle. The more people who are on the public transport system, the safer it will feel. That is where we want to go. Policing is a critical part of this, but that part of the question needs to be directed towards the Minister for Justice and that Department.
I will now go back and take An Teachta Joe Carey’s question because we moved more quickly than we had anticipated with Priority Questions.