Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 14 February 2023
60. Deputy Matt Carthy asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the steps he has taken to ensure adequate capacity within higher education institutions for students wishing to study veterinary medicine. [6868/23]
View answerFurther to Deputy Conway-Walsh's priority question, what steps the Minister has taken to ensure we have adequate capacity within higher education institutions for students who wish to study veterinary medicine considering that huge numbers of Irish young people are currently forced to go abroad? Will he give some further detail on the steps to ensure there will be accreditation for students emerging from any of our institutions, particularly north of the Border and in Britain?
I thank Deputy Carthy for his question and note his interest in it as an agricultural spokesperson. I want to get this right. I recognise there are two issues my Department must oversee. One is to make sure there are enough places to meet demand in the country. We have identified veterinary, dentistry, nursing and medicine as areas in which we wish to expand the number of places. We must also ensure, separate and distinct from that, that the number of Irish students who have to go abroad is reduced. I could never understand how there was a scenario in this country where official Ireland would say we had enough spaces when every year all these students found themselves having to go abroad. We only had one university in Ireland providing veterinary medicine. It does it very well and it is very sought after but there is only one.
The purpose is to scope out what higher education institutions could offer were they funded to do so. The existing number of places could be increased, and it would be entirely appropriate for an existing school to come forward and say it could do more, or there could be additional schools, or there could be both. There seems to be quite a lot of interest in this. There is also quite a lot of talk among vets about this and a real sense we could see at least one new veterinary school established. There is also a lot of regional interest in this. There are different views, as there will be among any group, as to who should house the new school or schools if they are to come about. The process we have put in place is robust and external to me. An external body has been set up through the Higher Education Authority, HEA, that includes the Chief Veterinary Officer and the Veterinary Council of Ireland. I hope that gives the Deputy confidence. I am not qualified to determine the most appropriate veterinary medicine courses nor is my Department. We listen to the regulators and the professional bodies on that just like we listen to the Chief Medical Officer on medicine places or the Chief Nursing Officer on nursing places.
On Northern Ireland, I and Deputy Conway-Walsh have done quite a bit about how we can continue to develop third level education on an all-island basis. We want to see that happen. It simply makes sense. I am satisfied, through the note given to me, that any programme deemed viable by the HEA will be subject to Veterinary Council of Ireland accreditation processes. EU Directive 2005/36/EC, which provides for the mutual recognition of qualifications of a range of professions, including vets, would ensure anyone who qualifies in a programme here has their qualification and registration recognised in Northern Ireland, the UK, Europe and some other jurisdictions.
The Minister is correct. I have a set of figures, I think for 2022 but it may be for 2021, which show that just 30% of newly registered vets in Ireland pursued their studies in Ireland and that 70% came from elsewhere. Frankly, we need to flip that on its head. We could and should become a world leader in veterinary practice considering the excellent family farm model for which we are renowned and, for that matter, the great effort put in across the agrifood sector, which holds a dominant place within the Irish economy and society. Nobody is questioning any of the membership of the expert panel. I am asking for clarification on whether the expert panel has sought interaction from international accreditation experts because what we want to do is make sure people qualify in Ireland as vets and that accreditation is recognised as far and wide as possible.
Here I am again with the vets. At this stage, I have probably spoken to the vast majority of vets from across the island. They obviously want to get this right, as do I. I come from a farming community along the western seaboard and we have long wanted a veterinary school there. It makes sense. It does concern me when the Minister speaks of an extension of what is already there because we, in particular, have a shortage of vets for large animals that needs to be catered for. It is not like putting on any other course. It is a school that has to have the full capacity to deliver what we need in terms of veterinary. I ask the Minister to bear that in mind. I reiterate the need for an all-island approach to this. I welcome that the Minister is supportive of that. Were there an institute here in collaboration with one of the institutes in the North, would the Minister be willing to explore and support that?
I thank the Minister and thank Deputy Carthy for tabling the question, and I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh, who has led out on this and had a priority question earlier. I come from a rural county but it is also a Border county. The two are very important when we look at this issue because there is a question of geography and access to veterinary services. We know in the evaluation that was carried out that it is the counties down the west coast - Donegal, Galway, Mayo and Kerry - that have the highest concentration of herd numbers without a veterinary practice within 20 km. It is encouraging that a number of universities have shown interest in the expression of interest that was submitted last year, but particularly the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, is one which covers the area where there is an issue with access to veterinary practice. The accreditation and recognition on an all-island basis is crucial because vets operate in one field one minute and in the next minute, they are across the Border. It needs to be internationally recognised. It needs to be all-island recognised and therefore the accreditation has to be accepted by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons as well. We need to get that right at the very start.
I am delighted to see such an interest in veterinary medicine because, a year ago, Deputy Conway-Walsh and I were being told there were an adequate number of places, and that never felt right to any of us. That is not the position now. We are doing this scoping exercise. There will, I believe, be at least one new veterinary school at the end of this. I do not want to pre-empt the process. I have to keep neutral and external to the process going on, but the point that Deputy Doherty and others make about the regional aspect is very important. In the criteria and in the issues the institutions were asked to outline, the regional impact was one because the Deputies are right in that it is more of an issue in certain parts of the country than others and it is more of an issue with certain types of animals than others. I assure people on accreditation that the competent authority is not my Department but the Veterinary Council of Ireland. It is on the board. It is on the panel. I am not. It will have to be satisfied through its accreditation process on an all-island approach. We are about to do that with medicine and there is no reason there would not be a wish to collaborate between North and South. We would be only too delighted to consider that.
On workforce planning, it is for the line Department to workforce plan, so to speak. How many vets and how many veterinary places are needed in Ireland are matters for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It will come to us and we then try to provide the places. It is the same in health and any other area.
Earlier today, we discussed legislation that could lead to a greater workload on vets. That alone has created a particular amount of unease. I welcome the Minister's assurances on all-Ireland accreditation.
The reason we have brought this matter to his attention is because concerns have been raised with us. Veterinary Council of Ireland accreditation is the base line. It would be senseless to consider having a veterinary college which did not deliver that, but there are different levels of accreditation. The top universities in the world, when providing accredited courses, try to ensure that accreditation is recognised as far as possible. Within the EU, Veterinary Council of Ireland accreditation is recognised. The Minister mentioned the North in the context of the protocol. However, we would also like this accreditation to be recognised across the water. Large numbers of Irish veterinary students traditionally spend a year or two in places like Canada, the United States and Australia. This means that the wider the reach of the accreditation, the more valuable the course becomes and the more esteem the qualification holds.
I welcome the Minister’s indications, but I urge him to keep a close eye on this and ensure that, as Deputy Doherty stated, we do not drop the ball.
I do not disagree with what the Deputy said. I referenced the EU directive in the context of mutual recognition of qualifications. I am happy to check for the Deputy, but I understand that an accredited place through the Veterinary Council of Ireland is recognised in the North, the UK and the EU, as well as in some other jurisdictions. I can seek clarity on the latter for the Deputy.
The process of looking at what is possible is external to me, as should be the case. Nobody wants me to decide what is appropriate for veterinary medicine. We have the chief vet, the Veterinary Council of Ireland and the HEA. My approach is to let them do their thing. I met the CEO of the HEA recently and conveyed that to him. A report will come to me in March and the matter will then be back in my space. I am happy to engage with the Deputy and his party colleague and spokesperson, Deputy Conway-Walsh, on making sure we get it right. The exercise between now and March is to ascertain what is possible, what the institutions are telling us and what the expert panel believes is best from what it has heard around the country. I am taken by the importance of that regional piece as well.
