Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 16 February 2023
86. Deputy Róisín Shortall asked the Minister for Health if his attention has been drawn to the inordinate number of senior staff who left his Department in 2022; the analysis, if any, of the reasons for these high numbers; if exit interviews were carried out and, if so, the outcome of these; and the steps that will be taken to address this concerning matter. [8013/23]
View answerI have a serious concern about the high turnover of staff in the Department of Health in the past two years. In 2021, the number of staff leaving jumped considerably and it jumped again in 2022. I am concerned about the instability this will cause and is causing in the health service. What is the Minister doing about it and what exactly is going on in the Department of Health?
I thank the Deputy for the question. There have been changes in the Department of Health. Broadly they have been positive. The Department is in a much better position now than it was when I was appointed to office. There is a strong culture of decision making, more openness and more stakeholder engagement. For example, we saw that in respect of the Bill that passed Committee Stage in this House last night. A strong senior team is in place and it is working well. I have seen important changes and improvements in performance in the Department of Health. I acknowledge the team that works there and the Secretary General who has been involved in leading important changes in the Department. He deserves great credit for that.
I will turn specifically to the numbers in the Deputy's question. The headcount in the Department at the end of 2019 was 521. It increased to a high point in October 2021 of 714 and then went back down again to 649 at the end of last year. The big increase was due to a number of seconded and contracted staff whose employment was short term by nature. As the Deputy will appreciate, many of their contracts were connected to Covid-19. Churn in any organisation is normal. The Department of Health is not unique in that. A review of figures reported by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform shows that for 2021 the churn at the Department of Health is broadly in line with other Departments and I expect we will see that for 2022 as well. Last year, 65 staff left the Department at assistant principal grade and above. This number includes staff whose secondments and contracts to the Department ended, staff who were successful in Civil Service mobility as well as those who retired.
By any standard the level of turnover is exceptional. For example, overall last year, 155 staff left, which represents about 24%. Almost one quarter of all staff in the Department of Health left last year. That must create instability and there must be some underlying reason for it. It is exceptional and completely out of line with previous years. Let us consider who those people were. Two assistant secretaries, two deputy secretaries, 17 principal officers and 49 assistant principal officers left. They were all senior staff. Why are they leaving? There must be a reason for this. Serious problems must be left behind with that level of turnover of senior staff.
I imagine the figure of 24% relates partly to secondments and other issues connected to the fact that the Department scaled up for Covid-19 and then scaled back down again. There have been movements. Some are due to retirement and some people are moving on to other Departments, which is normal. I repeat that the Department of Health is in a much stronger position than it was two and a half years ago.
I am asking about the turnover.
The figures I have show that the churn in the Department of Health is similar to other Departments. I am not concerned about the numbers who have left. Strong teams have been put in place.
There is something for us all to reflect on. As the Deputy will be aware from her time as a Minister of State at the Department, those who work in the Department of Health are on the receiving end of relentless negativity every day, every week. At a human level it can be difficult to work in that environment day in and day out, where the only thing a person hears is that nothing is working in healthcare - which is not true - and that there is a perpetual crisis. It is probably something we should all reflect on. It is difficult for anyone working year after year in that environment.
It is not helpful for the Minister to deny the situation exists. These are exceptional figures. Almost a quarter of staff in the Department of Health left last year, including a large number of senior people. They have walked out of the Department of Health. These are not retirements. These people chose to leave the Department of Health. Why did that happen and, more important, what is the Minister doing about it? He must recognise there is an issue. It does not seem to be a particularly healthy place to work. Large numbers of people, including senior people, are leaving. Has any analysis of those figures been done? The Minister provided the figures to me in replies to parliamentary questions so he should be aware of them. Almost a quarter of staff members have left. Has the Minister carried out any analysis of the reasons people have left? Have exit interviews been carried out? This is a serious matter. It has serious implications for the health service and the Minister must get on top of it.
I simply do not accept the premise. The Deputy states that there is a significant issue in the Department of Health and I am telling her straight that there is not. The Department of Health is in a much more robust and healthy place than it was two and a half years ago.
The Minister should speak about the numbers.
Am I concerned about it? I am not
The Minister should speak about the numbers. They do not lie.
I have addressed the numbers several times now.
No, the Minister has not.
I am telling the Deputy that according to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the figures in the Department of Health are matched in other Departments. If what the Deputy is saying is true, it is true across the Civil Service. As I said, I have no doubt some of it is down to people who were on secondment because of Covid-19 and have left. For example, we have moved an entire disability team to the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman's, Department. At senior level, ten people retired; 14 were contracted for secondments which have ended; 25 left for mobility reasons, that is they moved on to other jobs, often to promotions in other Departments, which as the Deputy will be aware is quite normal; and 16 left and are accounted for due to a variety of reasons, including promotion, competition, resignation and death in service.
