Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 16 May 2023
2. Deputy Matt Carthy asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence if he will accede to the wishes of the Women of Honour that any internal appointee to the oversight board be "vetted" for "appropriateness" by an Oireachtas committee, such desire reflecting the group's particular experience within the organisation and its culture; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23113/23]
View answerWill the Tánaiste accede to the wishes of the Women of Honour that any internal appointee to the oversight board be vetted for appropriateness by an Oireachtas committee, such desire reflecting their particular experience within the Defence Forces organisation and its culture? Will the Tánaiste also make a statement on this matter?
As the Deputy will be aware, the Government has agreed to progress as a priority the 13 recommendations of the independent review group, IRG, including the setting up an external oversight body - on a non-statutory basis initially - to increase transparency and accountability and to drive necessary culture change throughout the Defence Forces. I moved quickly on the establishment of the external oversight body, given its central role in driving change and to create momentum around the implementation of the IRG's recommendations. I am determined that we implement the recommendations and that we move on and change the culture within our Defence Forces.
I do not believe that some of the commentary in respect of the oversight body has been fair or appropriate. Its establishment and its membership were approved by the Government and are fully in line with the recommendation in the IRG report relating to "external oversight of the Defence Forces". The review group was explicit in the report on the membership of the oversight body, and it is on the basis of the group's guidance that the Government made the appointments to the external oversight body on 5 April, including the Secretary General of the Department of Defence.
I wish to emphasise strongly that the calibre and combined skills and experience of the members of the body, chaired by Professor Brian MacCraith, are exceptional. I am satisfied of their ability to carry out their important role effectively. The need for the Secretary General to be on the body was recommended by the IRG for good reason and reflects the important link between the external oversight body and the administration of Government to effect the change that is needed within the Defence Forces.
I am pleased to announce that, with the agreement of the Government this morning, I have today appointed Ms Sam des Forges to the body. Ms des Forges is the director of conduct, equity and justice in the Ministry of Defence in the United Kingdom and has relevant experience in the areas of diversity and inclusion, transformation of defence forces' complaints system, implementation of reforms relating to culture, and unacceptable behaviours within defence forces. Ms des Forges's unique personal experience, expertise and insight will be of considerable value to the body.
I will also be introducing legislation to place the body on a statutory footing.
My end goal has to be a safe workplace where self-worth and dignity are actively promoted and mutual respect becomes a dominant feature in an organisation that is open to change. The external oversight body will be a key player in that endeavour.
It is time that the Women of Honour were honoured in word and in deed by the House. The seriousness of the damage that was done to these women - and, indeed, men – has been fully articulated in the national media. It is not that they were raped or sexually assaulted out on the street and then did not get a kind ear when they went into work. This was done by their superior officers. This was done within the Defence Forces by people who should have known better and were there to defend the honour of these women.
When these women speak out, we have to take what they say seriously. They have said that they want there to be some oversight of the internal appointees to the oversight board. The Tánaiste should respect that and listen to these women.
The Government has to act. I became the Minister for Defence in the context of the Commission on the Defence Forces and have been repeatedly asked and criticised in the House over the lack of momentum and progress on its recommendations, even though we have implemented many of them. I am not going to have the same complaint made in respect of the IRG's recommendations. I wanted to show momentum from very early on. I respect fully, and have gone on public record as praising, the work of Women of Honour, Women and Men of Honour, other organisations and serving personnel who have come forward about issues and unacceptable behaviours within the Defence Forces.
The purpose of the external oversight body is to ensure that we have a strong body in place that can oversee the radical cultural change that is required. I do not personally believe that the best route to that is through vetting by an Oireachtas committee. I do not agree with that particular approach. If the Deputy looks at the individuals on the body, she would see for herself that they are of a high calibre and are genuine in their commitment to public service.
If the Tánaiste will not agree to that, I am sure there is some way of providing confidentiality to any appointee to the oversight body. The Tánaiste met Women of Honour the week before last, but the group was not satisfied afterwards. Is the Tánaiste going to meet Women of Honour again to discuss how to reach an agreement on this? We are talking about women who were in the Defence Forces.
These are not soft women. These are women who were ready to go out and defend their country and the reputation of Ireland. It is a tough job. They are not weak women. They are strong women who have stood up and, since they have spoken out, it has become possible for men who have suffered this kind of abuse in the Defence Forces to come out as well. Does the Tánaiste intend to meet the group again to see if he can come to an agreement with it that its members will be satisfied with?
I hope to meet with the Women of Honour group again and I will do so. At the last meeting, we circulated draft terms of reference for a statutory inquiry. It was quite an amicable meeting and I was a bit surprised by the subsequent press statement. The press comments have tended to be very adversarial with regard to the actions that the Defence Forces and I are taking. We are doing this in the best interests of getting accountability, having full transparency and holding a comprehensive statutory inquiry. We circulated draft terms of reference for people to work on so that various groups, including the Women of Honour, could come back to us with amendments and suggestions. We had a discussion on both the scope of such an inquiry and whether it would be a public inquiry in the tribunal of inquiry format or a commission of inquiry. We have to bear in mind all of those who may want to come forward and what is the best model for them. We did that very openly at the meeting with all of the groups. We are waiting for responses from the various groups, the other groups represented being Men and Women of Honour, RACO, PDFORRA and the Defence Women's Network within the Defence Forces.
