Robert Troy
Question:87. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Education if she will provide an update on the school divestment programme. [31594/23]
View answerThursday, 29 June 2023
Questions (87)
Oral answers (15 contributions)
Will the Minister update the House on her Department’s school divestment programme?
The programme for Government contains a commitment to expand the plurality of our schools to reflect the full breadth of society and improve parental choice. Among the commitments are: to achieve the target of at least 400 multidenominational primary schools by 2030 in order to improve parental choice; to expand and prioritise the transfer of viable schools to community national schools; and to work with communities to ensure the provision of clear, non-partisan information on the preparation for, and consequences of, the divestment process and to respond to queries raised.
In recent years, there has been considerable progress towards increasing the number of multidenominational schools, with 52 of the 53 new primary schools and 44 of the 50 new post-primary schools established since 2011 having a multidenominational ethos. A number of patronage transfers have taken place in recent years, resulting in the provision of an additional 12 multidenominational community national schools. In addition, a Gaelscoil in Dublin transferred patronage from its Catholic patron to An Foras Pátrúnachta in 2021. This school offers parents of junior infants the choice of undertaking an ethics and morality programme or a Catholic programme. Separately, a Gaelscoil in Gorey under the patronage of An Foras Pátrúnachta changed to a multidenominational ethos on a phased basis from September 2022. Twelve primary schools have been established under the patronage divesting process, all of which have a multidenominational ethos. In two of the patronage divesting areas, the demographics increased sufficiently to warrant the establishment of new schools outside of the divesting process and new multidenominational schools have been established. While the focus of the Department is on progressing the schools reconfiguration process, the Department is continuing its efforts to identify suitable solutions in the remaining patronage divesting areas.
In 2022, there were 166 primary schools with a multidenominational or interdenominational ethos. In March 2022, I announced that arrangements were being put in place in a number of towns and areas of cities that had no multidenominational primary schools to identify potential schools and engage with their school managements, staff and school communities with a view to identifying demand for a transfer of patronage. The pilot areas were across the cities of Cork, Dublin, Galway and Limerick and also Arklow, Athlone, Dundalk and Youghal. The council for education of the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference and the relevant bishops confirmed their willingness to engage and co-operate with the Department. The engagement at local level across the seven pilot areas was largely concluded at the end of quarter 1 of 2023. Two schools - one in Athlone and another in Dublin - will be transferring from Catholic patronage to the local education and training boards, ETBs, becoming multidenominational community national schools for the 2023-24 school year.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
The Department is hopeful that there will be a number of other transfers of patronage and changes of ethos to multidenominational in the short term.
My Department is reviewing the pilot and considering the lessons and the process for providing multidenominational options for parents in other areas of the country. It is envisaged that the review will be undertaken over the course of the summer and, following consultation with relevant stakeholders, will be finalised and published in the autumn. The review will include any lessons from the process and outline a strategy and framework for delivering on the Government commitment to increase multidenominational provision.
I welcome the Minister's reply. It is right to acknowledge that we live in a much more diverse and pluralistic society. In that context, it is important that we improve parental choice.
The Minister referred to two schools that recently transferred from a Catholic ethos to ETBs. She might correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that was part of a 60-school programme. Two out of 60 seems small. Where is the resistance to making this change? Is the Education (Admission to Schools) Act meeting resistance in some instances? What engagement has the Minister had with the key stakeholders? What plans has she to identify the locations where there is a need and a want for change? Clearly, people want this change, but whenever it is proposed, it does not appear to be responded to positively.
I thank the Acting Chair for allowing me to contribute on this question. These processes are being set up to fail. Two processes in my constituency have failed because, even though the Minister promised that the parents of potential pupils in the areas around the schools would be consulted, that did not happen. The archdiocese can press all the buttons it wants and then get what it wants, which is the status quo. In a ridiculous situation, someone whose child is in sixth class has more of a say in the future of the school than someone living locally who has preschool infants. Indeed, the latter has no say. The status quo remains as a result. I still do not have the report into what happened in Raheny. I understand that a similar process happened in Edenmore.
These processes are being set up to fail, not by the Minister, but by those with a vested interested in preserving the status quo. It is ridiculous that someone living in an area who has a one-year-old or a three-year-old has no say in the future of the local primary school when someone whose kid is leaving the school in two months’ time has all the say.
I agree with previous speakers. We are living in a diverse society. The issue I am raising is one that is common to all schools. We are living with people, going to schools and telling them we are cutting class sizes, yet I know of a school that is going to lose a teacher. More than 20 students are going to be put into classes around the school. It does not make sense.
I want to raise another issue because I have to leave. In the past three weeks, I have met with different schools about DEIS status. There is DEIS 1 and DEIS 2. There are boys in DEIS 1 and girls in DEIS 2. That has brought confusion. There are children from the same family going to different schools. The Minister needs to get these issues sorted. They are becoming huge issues across all schools on the ground.
Deputies Troy and Ó Ríordáin referred to divestment. I absolutely appreciate their bona fides in relation to advancing this programme as quickly as possible. I acknowledge that there is a Government commitment to do that and that there has been co-operation from various partners, in the first instance, in respect of the pilot programme. Somewhere along the line it gets lost that 52 of the 53 new primary schools are multidenominational, and 44 of the 50 new post-primary schools are multidenominational. I hear the frustrations of Deputies Troy and Ó Ríordáin, and we have discussed the matter previously. Putting that to one side, significant learning will come from the pilot scheme. There is no doubt that it worked in some areas, but it did not work at all in other areas. That is being reviewed. Out of that there will be an action plan to do things differently and more proactively where we feel it did not work, and also to take the learnings from where it worked well. This is just one step in a longer process. We have the vision and the determination to advance it as quickly as possible.
I do not know how DEIS found its way into this discussion.
I had to get it in.
Congratulations on doing that. It was very dextrous of the Deputy altogether.
I was just asking myself the same question.
The DEIS programme is extremely important. It speaks to educational disadvantage. We have the single greatest number of schools now involved in the DEIS programme. There was a very clear and transparent process for schools that did not meet the criteria. There was an appeals process and significant resources were put in place. I acknowledge that there will be children who are attending schools that are not DEIS schools, and they are also at risk of educational disadvantage, so we have universal targets on free books, as I mentioned earlier, and we are running pilots. One of the pilot projects to provide counselling services in primary school is being run in the Deputy's area.
We need to look at not just targeted measures, but also universal measures.
I thank the Minister for coming back to us. It is important that we acknowledge that learnings will be taken from the initial pilot scheme, which delivered only three out of 60 schools. In certain locations there is a desire to divest, but we must also acknowledge that in other locations people do not want to divest. They should not be bullied into divesting by people who have a particular narrative or agenda of their own. It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm that there is good engagement with the key stakeholders in this area. It would also be helpful if she could outline what her plans are in terms of learning from the lessons of the pilot scheme that has just concluded. She might also indicate how she is going to move that forward into the future to ensure that in the locations where there is a desire for divestment, it can happen and that in locations where there is no desire for divestment and where the desire is to maintain the status quo, those students and the choice made by their parents will be equally respected.
I appreciate the Minister's bona fides in this as well. I know there will be learnings from the pilot divestment programmes. However, we must acknowledge that those whose agenda is to keep the status quo know what buttons to press with the local parental body. They know what to say, and they know about information and disinformation. They know how to shrug their shoulders when questions are asked. They know about timelines being truncated so that people feel under pressure to make a decision. They know that the issue of the mixing of genders is being overlapped with the divestment from one patron to another. Again, I state bluntly to the Minister that it is ridiculous, in any geographic location, that those who have the say are those whose children are currently in school and those whose children are not currently in school, who could be facing it and looking right across the road at it, have no say in this process whatsoever. That has to change. I think the Minister will acknowledge that.
I want to be very clear at the outset. There is to be no bullying or coercion here. The pilot that has concluded was purposefully set out to gather the thoughts and the views. I acknowledge that in some instances there was no desire for change, and in others, there was huge desire for change. I absolutely accept that there must be a balanced approach. I also accept what Deputy Ó Ríordáin has said in terms of the validity of those who are being consulted and delivering the widest type of consultation. I do not wish to keep repeating myself, but it is important that we can make an informed decision. Therefore, the pilot has been important so that we can see what worked, what did not work and, indeed, what might have worked if it had been done differently. That is the purpose of having the pilot. That is the purpose the current review of the pilot. We will then formulate an action plan going forward to fulfil the commitment that has been made.