Brendan Smith
Question:12. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Taoiseach for a report on his recent discussions with the political parties in Northern Ireland. [37714/23]
View answerWednesday, 4 October 2023
Questions (12, 13, 14, 15)
Cathal Crowe
Question:13. Deputy Cathal Crowe asked the Taoiseach for a report on his recent discussions with the political parties in Northern Ireland. [37715/23]
View answer
Ruairí Ó Murchú
Question:14. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Taoiseach for a report on his recent discussions with the political parties in the North. [42603/23]
View answer
Paul Murphy
Question:15. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach to report on his recent discussions with Northern Ireland political parties. [42350/23]
View answerOral answers (5 contributions)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 to 15, inclusive, together.
On 9 August, I visited Belfast for political, business and civic engagements, which included meetings with the five main parties in Northern Ireland. In those meetings, we discussed the window of opportunity this autumn for forming the Executive and getting the Assembly back in place and I listened carefully to each of their assessments. While in Belfast, I also visited Linfield Football Club, had a meeting with the GAA Ulster Council, the recruitment company Staffline and the Federation of Small Businesses. I ended my day at a networking event for Women in Business NI.
I was also in Belfast on 11 September for the launch of the PEACEPLUS programme, a new cross-Border EU programme with an unprecedented budget of €1.1 billion. While there, I met with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Chris Heaton-Harris. The programme is co-funded by the UK and the EU, with funding from the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, with the bulk of it coming from the UK Government. We are agreed that the continued long absence of an Executive and Assembly is detrimental to the interests of all in Northern Ireland. I would like to see this ongoing engagement between the UK Government and the DUP conclude successfully and soon.
When we met on 20 September in New York, the Tánaiste and I updated President Biden on the current situation in Northern Ireland. We discussed the UK legacy Act and I outlined my concerns in that regard. President Biden remains very committed to the Good Friday Agreement institutions and principles and reiterated that he is always available to help if we think he can. We agreed to remain in contact on these matters. I will discuss the situation in Northern Ireland with Prime Minister Sunak when we meet tomorrow on the margins of the European Political Community meeting in Granada in Spain.
I welcome the Taoiseach's visits to Belfast in August and September. The launch of the PEACEPLUS programme is a great development. I know it has been worked on for a number of years by the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Minister for Finance. The very substantive funding that is available from the European Commission, the British Government and the Irish Government will be put to good use in communities North and South. It is a worthy successor to the various PEACE and INTERREG programmes, which made a real difference in communities that suffered disadvantage due to the decades of trouble in the province of Ulster and other Border areas.
I also welcome the appointment of Hilary Benn MP as the UK Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He visited Belfast yesterday. In his capacity as chair of the House of Commons Brexit committee from 2016 to 2019, he had regular engagement with us at committee level in this House and he understands very well Ireland, Northern Ireland, North-South relations and the need for improved British-Irish relations. I wish him well in his work in the future.
We are all very well aware, and I get the message from my neighbours in Fermanagh and Tyrone, that prolonged periods of instability in Northern Ireland and the absence of a government are causing real difficulties in the delivery of public services, be they in health, education or social services, as well as the lack of investment in public infrastructure. It goes without saying that Northern Ireland needs stable and sustainable government. In all the discussions that take place, we must always be mindful of the principles of power sharing, parity of esteem and consent. They are the principles underpinning the Good Friday Agreement and they must be protected in all discussions.
We have been told for some time, and the Taoiseach referred to it again regarding his talks in August and September, that the institutions will be reconstituted in early autumn. When we talk about institutions, we are obviously talking about the Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive but also, very importantly, the North-South Ministerial Council, at which excellent work was done over the years in sector format as well.
We are told the British Government is in talks with the DUP and we read various reports of the talks moving forward. The plea I am asked to relay to the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and other members of the Government is from people who may not be actively involved in politics in Northern Ireland, for example, people in business, people who see their local school not having the services it needs or families suffering delays in accessing health services. They want to see the institutions back up and running as quickly as possible, working in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland and working along with our Government and political institutions here.
One of the institutions that was established subsequent to the Good Friday Agreement was the North-South Inter-Parliamentary Association, which the Ceann Comhairle co-chaired. Deputy Durkan and I have been in that association for some time. Unfortunately, it has not been able to meet. I remember some of the excellent discussions that took place at it, whether on Brexit, the food industry or farming on an-Ireland basis. At parliamentary level, we are lacking that association working to represent the views of constituents and communities North and South.
Outside the DUP, all of us across this island want to see an Executive up and running and Michelle O'Neill as First Minister. I welcome what the Taoiseach said about a window of opportunity. We need to make sure that is not lost and there is no drift. I am interested in hearing how the Taoiseach found his recent conversations with the DUP and about the onus on the British Government, which, at times, has given cover for some of the actions taken by the DUP. In fairness, it is the British Government that is ultimately responsible for this entire set of circumstances, from Brexit onwards.
There is no support on the island of Ireland for the legacy Act. The Irish Government has a responsibility to take action. We will be talking about legal action. What is the position at this moment?
I will return to the issue of long-term planning. I welcome what the Taoiseach said earlier. Regarding the comparative studies, I assume we will be looking at a greater level of research and modelling into possibilities. We can carry out the due diligence that needs to be done before a referendum is called.
What about a citizens' assembly or some form of forum or fora that would involve as many people as possible to talk about the nature of Irish unity and what it could look like? This would involve every issue, from the economy to society and government, making space for all who live on the island of Ireland. We can definitely do a better job than has been done over many centuries with outside influences.
I support the views expressed by Deputy Brendan Smith on the importance of parliamentary interaction between the two assemblies when the Assembly is restored. In order to facilitate that discussion, the Assembly must be restored. There is a notion that in some way, if things are left in abeyance for long enough, everything will fade away and we will go back to where we were.
The Good Friday Agreement set down distinctly the pillars of society into the future and the need to observe the curtilege of the agreement, which is widespread. The agreement has aspirations that are well-catered for and assumptions, of which it was mindful at the time. We cannot go back and any vision on anybody's part of the possibility of going backwards does not arise. It was a formal international agreement that has worked well. It now behoves us all to encourage the highest possible degree of interaction between the bodies without disappointing or excluding anybody but ensuring that the peace agreement grows and evolves as time goes by.
I thank the Deputies for their questions. PEACEPLUS is a really good programme. If you calculate how much money is being made available, which is over €1 billion, you can see that it is more than the previous INTERREG and PEACE programmes combined, so that is very positive.
It benefits 12 counties, not just the six counties of Northern Ireland, but also the six Border counties, including Sligo. It is a programme of real benefit. I am not sure it is 12 counties but it is more than nine anyway. I acknowledge that it is an EU programme but also that most of the funding comes from the UK Government. It is a 3:1 split as was the case with previous programmes, and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is the lead Department for us.
Regarding the Good Friday Agreement institutions, the Government remains very anxious that the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive should be restored as soon as is possible. As was noted by Deputy Smith, because the Assembly and the Executive are not working, the North-South Ministerial Council is not meeting at plenary nor at inter-ministerial level. I know sometimes people will say that the establishment of the Executive and the Assembly is a strand 1 issue and should not concern the Government here in Dublin. However, it does because without the Executive and the Assembly operating, strand 2, which is the North-South Ministerial Council, cannot operate. When it was working, it generally worked well and allowed for practical co-operation and for relationships to develop which is very important in building reconciliation. Even though it was a lot of time out of the diary to be going up and down to Armagh for meetings, it was worth it and I regret the fact that the council is not up and running. The same applies to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. It is about meeting and engagement, and about understanding each other a bit better. Often, we talk to each other but do not understand each other and that is only every corrected by familiarity and by building relationships. That is missing at the moment. Thankfully, the British-Irish Council and the British–Irish Intergovernmental Conference, BIIGC, are operating and look forward to hosting the British-Irish Council in Dublin Castle in November.
Deputy Ó Murchú asked about my talks with the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, DUP. It was a good conversation. The indications I was given was that things were slowly moving in the right direction. Of course, the difficulty we all understand at this stage is that they have been slowly moving in the right direction for a very long time but do not seem to have got to a conclusion yet. However, hopefully we will get to a conclusion and get there in a positive way.
On the UK legacy Act, this Act is now law. It received royal assent on 18 September. Many groups representing victims as well as many Members of this House have called for an inter-state case to be initiated before the European Court of Human Rights, ECHR, with respect to this Act. The Government has sought legal advice on this matter. It has not yet received this advice but when it is finalised and received, we will consider carefully what action we should take and will need to take. No decision has been made on that yet.
Finally, Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned the possibility of a citizens' assembly on unification. I am not really sure that is the right model. The nature of a citizens' assembly is that it is a randomly selected 100 people. Those selected are random and representative and that would mean a citizens' assembly in which only one in seven of the people in that assembly would be British. Let us not forget that there are 1 million people on our island who identify as British. They identify as British because they are British and I am just not sure it would be the right start to say to that really important group of people on our island that they would only have representation of one in seven. I am not sure it would be possible to find people to participate. We really need to say to the minority on our island that we want you and we respect you and that there is a special place for you were unification ever to occur. A citizens' assembly could be the wrong start, quite frankly. A better model might be something like the New Ireland Forum established by the late Dr. Garret FitzGerald when he was Taoiseach. All of that is premature quite frankly. The priority now has to be doing all we can and making that best and last effort to get the Assembly and the Executive restored in order to bed down those institutions. I would be concerned that establishing a citizens' assembly and talk of a border poll and all those things, distract from what has to be the number one effort which is to get the Good Friday Agreement institutions up and running if at all possible.
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Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 1.44 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 2.44 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 1.44 p.m. and resumed at 2.44 p.m.