Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 7 December 2023
100. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Minister for Social Protection if she will take into account the negative reaction of people with disabilities to the Green Paper on disability reform in devising further policy in the area; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [54228/23]
View answerI presume the Minister of State will have to accept that the Green Paper on disability reform has been met with almost universal criticism and opposition from people with disabilities and campaigning organisations. A protest will take place at 12 noon today outside Leinster House. There are activists in the Gallery right now. It is time to withdraw the proposal in the Green Paper to introduce a tiered benefit system similar to the Tories' work capability assessment.
I welcome the visitors in the Gallery. The Government committed, as part of the Roadmap for Social Inclusion, to develop and consult on proposals to restructure long-term disability payments and simplify the system. The consultation process has been ongoing since the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, launched the Green Paper on disability reform in September. I emphasise that the Green Paper is a consultation document, not a final reform design. It sets out one possible approach for the purpose of inviting discussion, informing debate and prompting suggestions. I am very mindful of our commitment under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities to consult closely with, and actively involve, disabled people and their representative groups in changes to policies and services that will have an impact on them.
The aim of the Green Paper is twofold. First, it seeks to better insulate from poverty disabled people who cannot work by providing for higher rates of payment. Second, it seeks to support and encourage a higher level of employment for people with disabilities by tailoring the provision of employment supports to suit a person's capabilities. The Green Paper aims to achieve this through its main proposal of a three-tiered personal support payment, rather than the one-size-fits-all payment currently in place. I am aware that concerns have been expressed about the possible impact of the proposed approach on a person's entitlement to a disability payment or the level of that payment. I want to make it clear that nobody will lose their entitlement to a disability payment arising from the Green Paper proposals and nobody will see that payment level reduced. In addition, engagement with public employment services will be on a voluntary basis.
I assure the Deputy that all feedback on the Green Paper proposals will be considered in any future reforms of the system. That is the purpose of the consultation process. My officials have held a stakeholder event and four public consultation events over the past two months. We want to hear from as many disabled people and their representatives as possible. Accordingly, we have extended the closing date for the consultation until 15 March 2024. This was in response to a number of requests for an extension to allow individuals, disabled persons' organisations and disability groups time to compose their submission. We are open to all ideas and suggestions. I encourage everybody with an interest in improving the lives of people with disabilities to engage in the consultation process.
If the Government is serious about consultation and listening to people, it would, in fact, have listened to people and it would be withdrawing this Green Paper. "Nothing about us without us" is the slogan of the disability rights movement. Let us listen to what people with disabilities are saying. They are saying the proposed work capacity assessments are dehumanising and degrading, will objectify disabled people and will place blame on them for seeking welfare benefits. They say the Green Paper constitutes degrading and humiliating treatment under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and breaches disabled people's human rights. They say it will set disabled people against each other by discriminating between those seen as deserving of full benefits rights and those not deemed so deserving. They say the proposed process is based on a value judgment and will place blame on disabled people for seeking welfare benefits. They say it sends out a message to the general public that disabled people are falsifying the nature and extent of their impairment or illness and this will set up public resentment towards those disabled people who claim welfare benefits. They point out that it will do nothing to tackle the discrimination, societal ableism, oppression and prejudice from employers that are experienced by disabled people every day of their lives.
We need to heed the issues the Deputy has raised. I urge individuals and groups to view the Green Paper as an opportunity to detail and express the barriers they face in society that prevent them from participating at an equal level. They include financial barriers and physical barriers in workplaces and public infrastructure. Crucially, as the Deputy referred to, there are also barriers of preconceptions and prejudices among employers. The Green Paper will give us an opportunity to talk about all these issues and, most importantly, come up with solutions. We are talking about a Green Paper, not legislation. The idea is that we have the debate first. We need to listen carefully to what we are told.
I wonder whether the Minister of State has seen Ken Loach's fine film, "I, Daniel Blake", which reveals in horrifying detail the impact of a tiered system such as that being proposed. In the UK, it is called a work capability assessment; in the Green Paper, it is called a work capacity assessment. In effect, they are the same. When I asked the Taoiseach about this, he said "I, Daniel Blake" was a good film but it was one-sided; in other words, he was suggesting that perhaps some of these people may, in reality, be trying to scam the system.
The Minister of State said Intreo officials will carry out the work capacity assessments and that engagement with public employment services will be voluntary. If he has been listening to disabled people, he will know how negative their experiences with Intreo have been in the past. The proposal is to force people to jump through more hoops for Intreo into the future.
What does it mean to say it will be voluntary engagement where Intreo will have the power to categorise people into tiers and people will be left with little power to challenge this? The Minister of State said we should not worry and that nobody's payments will be cut. That might be the case now under this Government, but if we establish this tiered system we create the basis for cutting people's payments in the future, as happened in Britain.
As a Department, we have a responsibility to listen to and take on board people's experiences with Intreo. I know that good work is done, but as I said, the voices of people with disabilities are key in this regard. I thought the Deputy might ask me about the film. I have not seen it, but my understanding is that it is about the UK context. I understand, from what I have heard about it, why people might be fearful. This is Ireland and I believe we do things differently here, notwithstanding that people are concerned. While working in the Department, I have certainly learned that there is an openness to listening to stakeholders, and particularly in the area of disability there is an open-mindedness to doing things differently. I would see this as an opportunity for people to express the concerns that they have. It is a Green Paper. The idea is that it is a consultation document; it is not written in stone at the moment.
We are running out of time and there are two questions left. With a little co-operation, we will get the two done perhaps.
