Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 7 December 2023
8. Deputy Eoin Ó Broin asked the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to publish his Department's AEV and REV for 2023, including all of the individual spending programmes under each subhead, to publish the AEV for 2024 including all of the individual spending programmes under each subhead; and to give a commitment to publish the REV for 2024 when it is complete including all of the individual spending programmes under each subhead. [54147/23]
View answerAfter the budget each year, the Department produces an abridged Estimates Volume, which not only lists the headings for each of the functions of the Department but also the amounts allocated to each spending item. By the end of the year that document is revised into what is called a Revised Estimates Volume which has an updated figure. In previous years I have been given some of that documentation. I am asking the Government to publish the abridged Estimates Volume and the Revised Estimates Volume for last year in the interest of transparency and to publish the abridged Estimates Volume from October of this year and give a commitment to publish the Revised Estimates Volume in December when it is agreed.
The documents referred to in the question are documents that are prepared and published by the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. The abridged Estimates for public services, AEV, are published as part of the expenditure report budget documents and detail provided for the Votes is limited to programme level. They vary and are hence called "abridged". They are published at budget time.
The Revised Estimates Volume for public services, REV, provides considerably more detail at subhead level, as well as performance metrics. The REV forms the basis for parliamentary scrutiny of allocated expenditure.
Deputy Ó Broin writes to the Department every year asking for that REV-level breakdown immediately following the budget. While my officials endeavour to be as open and transparent about indicative allocations emanating from the high-level programme allocation, I am very clear that these are not finalised until the publication of the REV in December.
Budget 2024 was presented and published on Tuesday, 10 October this year. The 2024 Estimates shown as Part III of the expenditure report reflected the expenditure adjustments announced by the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on 10 October 2023 and detailed elsewhere in the expenditure report.
As regards the commitment to publish the REV for 2024, that is a matter for the Minister of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, of course, but it is routinely published and includes the individual spending programmes. If any changes to the REV arise, that is only following the process of further Revised Estimates which includes a Government decision, referral to the select committee on housing before referral back to the Dáil. That further Revised Estimate, fREV as it is known, is then published.
Clearly the Minister of State is very confused and does not understand what I am asking for. This is what I am asking for. Every single year since 2018 I have either written to the Secretary General of the Department or put in a parliamentary question requesting a breakdown not just of how much housing gets, heritage gets and local government gets, but every individual spending programme. Every year since 2018 I have been provided with that detailed breakdown. The Minister of State is absolutely correct in what he says about the abridged Estimates and the Revised Estimates. I think it would be in the Government's own interests not only to publish the full abridged Estimates with all the individual items, but also to publish the Revised Estimates so that there is full transparency in accountability.
Those documents are held by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage; it is not a matter for the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. The documents it publishes do not go into the level of detail that I have been given by the Department of housing every single year. If the Minister of State is now saying there is a change in practice and that from this point on when Members ask they will not be given this detailed breakdown, that is a problem. In the interest of transparency, accountability and honesty, Government should provide this information. In fact, I believe it should be published on the Department's websites and should be given to the committee. It should not be up to an individual Member to have to harass and hound the Minister of State or God forbid put in a freedom of information request to get information that should be and must be in the public domain. I ask the Minister of State to reconsider, publish the three documents the Department has and give a commitment to publish the fourth when it is concluded at the end of this month.
The Deputy has raised this matter previously. Departments and governments have to have their own process in how they deal with documents. I reiterate that the Revised Estimate Volume for public services obviously provides considerably more detail. It is prepared and published by the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe. I understand that is due for publication in December and relatively soon. The details the Deputy is looking for must go through a formal process. That is the way Government functions and that is the way Departments operate. We need to have that rigorous process in terms of the normal due diligence process in Government. It cannot be done on an à la carte basis. The Deputy should await the publication by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform which will be relatively soon, I understand.
The Minister of State is completely missing the point. I am not saying he should give me information before it is agreed. I am saying that last year there was an abridged Estimates Volume with all of this detail and there was then a Revised Estimates Volume which was amended. I want him to publish both of those documents from last year. This year after the budget, an abridged Estimates Volume has been agreed; I would like a copy of that. When the formal process he mentioned is concluded, I would like not the information the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform publishes on its website because it is not as comprehensive as what I have been given previously. I want a commitment that the Department of housing will give us this now.
We cannot keep having this row and wasting the Minister of State's time and his officials' time. I can submit an FOI or make another complaint to the Ceann Comhairle as I had to do recently. The Department has given me this information every other single year. I do not understand why I have to come here and fight for it now. It would be much easier to give us the information from last year, give us the information that has been agreed this year, commit to giving us the final information at the end of the year and not waste the officials' time by forcing me to submit a freedom of information request or another complaint to the Ceann Comhairle. That is not fair to officials who are already working very long hours on a very difficult portfolio.
Deputy Ó Broin is an experienced politician and is aware of how Departments and Government operate. The abridged Estimates Volume, AEV, was published by the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform at the time of the budget and is freely available.
However, not with the individual spending items for spending programmes.
Regarding the detail the Deputy is looking for, that document is published by the Minister for Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.
It is not published in the format that I am asking for. It does not have all the information.
Sorry, Deputy-----
They are not the same documents.
The Revised Estimate Volume, REV, is under the domain and jurisdiction of the Minister for Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. He will publish it very shortly. I hope the Deputy will await that, not go down the road of freedom of information and work with the normal process of Government.
The FOI is for documents already agreed the Minister of State will not publish.
There shall be no crosstalk.
