Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions
78. Deputy Marian Harkin asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to provide an update on the long-outstanding issue of regularising the terms and conditions of adult education tutors employed by education and training boards; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2048/24]
View answerI am asking for an update on the agreement for a public service contract for adult education tutors. In particular, I am asking for as much information as possible on the terms and conditions that will be provided for in that contract and whether, finally, the adult education tutors will be recognised and given fair terms and conditions for the work they do.
I acknowledge that this is an issue the Deputy has championed and highlighted in this House for a long time. She has raised it on a number of occasions, including at Leaders' Questions. I acknowledge that. It is also an issue that has been dragging on for too long. I know that is very much the conviction of the adult education tutors and those who represent them. They play a central role in meeting learners' needs. The regularisation of the terms and conditions of tutors is a priority for me and my Department. Steps taken to achieve this include the provision in 2019 of access to leave schemes, paid leave and the appropriate public sector pension scheme. The majority of tutors are paid on the unqualified teacher rate and have received Building Momentum pay increases, but there is a smaller group of tutors who are paid on the self-financing rate which was originally intended to be used for self-financing and not Exchequer-funded courses. As such, this rate has not be increased under national pay agreements. Work is under way to retrospectively award Building Momentum increases to this group this year.
In terms of the final elements of the overall process, following extensive engagement by my Department, together with the Department of Education which currently has legal responsibility for the terms and conditions of all employees in the ETB sector, and working with officials in the Department of public expenditure, a proposal was issued from my Department to staff representatives last year to establish a new grade of adult educator, with a standardised pay scale aligned with the Youthreach resource person scale. At the time, this was seen as a welcome breakthrough. The proposal provides for a consistent approach across ETBs into the future. Each of the over 2,800 tutors employed across the ETBs will have the option to avail of the proposal and assimilate on to the proposed new adult educator pay scale or remain on his or her existing arrangements. The implementation of the proposal has been the subject of further negotiations with staff representatives.
The sticking point, and a legitimate issue, was around arrangements for an incremental progression, which was the outstanding issue. The unions and the ETB management have drafted a paper on the implementation process for the proposal, and I am pleased to say this has now been agreed in principle between the parties. I am also pleased to tell the Deputy that both Departments met with ETBI this week - on Tuesday, I believe - to discuss the paper. Arising from these discussions, the proposal has now been finalised between Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, and the unions. I thank people for working on that. We intend to submit the final proposal to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform today and I hope we can bring this matter to a swift conclusion.
The Minister talked about a new adult educator pay scale. From speaking to adult education tutors, I know they do not want teacher contracts or contracts aligned to the terms and conditions of resource workers. They want to be recognised for the work they do. It is not better or worse; it is different. It is reasonable that any contract would reflect that difference and the actual work they do. They do the same work as further education and training and post-primary level 5 colleagues, and they want to be paid properly for their holidays, which is only reasonable. I know they are looking for clarification as to what is in the contract. I have been told that, as far as they are concerned, there is a lot of ambiguity about this. I am asking for clarification, although I know the Minister has already provided some.
Moreover, as the Minister recognised, some ETBs have not honoured the Building Momentum public pay agreement for adult tutors. They say they are waiting for a circular from the Department but such a thing does not exist. I ask the Minister to help to sort this out.
I will speak about Carlow. Adult education tutors are vital in Carlow and we have great tutors who provide an excellent service. At the moment, some of our tutors are working with the most disadvantaged and, indeed, with Ukrainian students, both young and old. It is very important that we move along with this. A 2020 Labour Court recommendation requested that the Department seeks to resolve things and place these tutors on an incremental scale. At present, they are paid hourly and they sign on during every school summer closure. I know the Minister has agreed that this must be done and he has sent costings to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform but it seems to be stuck there. I ask that we move on this. I know many of the tutors in Carlow and they are excellent. I believe we need to get this done.
I am also looking forward to seeing the Minister in Carlow soon as I know he is coming to Carlow College, St. Patrick's. I hope that happens as soon as possible.
I am looking forward to visiting Carlow College with Deputy Murnane O'Connor shortly. I thank both Deputies for raising this important issue. My understanding is that very good progress was made on agreeing the grades. I hope I did not suggest it, but this is not to suggest that the work an adult education tutor does is similar to another job. It is aligning the terms and conditions with other people working in the further education and training sector, which I think is appropriate. It is getting them into a regularised space, with a proper contract and the normal things that people would expect in any contract.
The sticking point was around the proposal in regard to an increment. The proposal was for an increment to be awarded following completion of 1,043 contact hours, rather than on the completion of 52 weeks worked. The unions contended that section 9 of the Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act 2001 requires that part-time and full-time adult educators receive increments after the same periods of employment regardless of the number of hours worked during that period of employment. I sought legal advice in this regard and on foot of that, we have worked very closely with ETBI and with the representative bodies of the adult education tutors. As a result, an updated proposal is now issuing to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on the basis of that increment being awarded on the completion of 52 weeks.
That is where we are literally right now. It follows on from a meeting where there was an agreement in principle between TUI, SIPTU and the ETB sector on the implementation process on 12 January, followed by a meeting of my Department, the ETB sector and the unions on 16 January, which fell on a Tuesday. I will now submit the proposal to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and, following that, we will be straight back to the unions. I want to see this issue resolved and I know the adult education tutors really want to see it resolved. A huge of amount of work has been done in good faith by everyone. There were a couple of sticking points around implementation. The Building Momentum piece around the increases due to those tutors on SOLAS-funded programmes who are paid on self-financing rates will also be addressed as part of this process.
I am pleased to hear that this will be addressed. To clarify, to gain one increment on the pay scale, do they have to work the full academic year in terms of hours? In other parts of the public sector, one calendar year is one point on the pay scale and it is pro rata, so there is no advantage or disadvantage here. It is just being reasonable and fair. I ask the Minister to clarify that for me as I was not quite sure what he said.
The Minister mentioned pensions earlier. They are asking that all hours worked be pensionable and, again, I think that is a reasonable ask.
In the last few seconds of my speaking time, I want to recognise the very important work of the late Lorcan McNamee in making the case for adult tutors for so many years. Lorcan died just before Christmas and I want to recognise his very valuable contribution in supporting adult tutors for many years.
I join with the Deputy in sending my condolences to the family of Lorcan McNamee and I understand from Deputy Harkin’s contribution the important contribution that he made in regard to adult education tutors. May he rest in peace.
The proposal was for an increment to be awarded following the completion of 1,043 contact hours, rather than on the completion of 52 weeks worked. As I said, and for clarity, the unions contended that under section 9 of the Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act 2001, this requires that whether someone is part-time or full-time, they would receive increments after the same period of employment regardless of the number of hours worked during that period of employment. The unions also sought confirmation that circular letter 65/2017, Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act 2003 - Implementation of Agreement in Respect of Tutors Employed by Education and Training Boards, will continue to apply to their members, including those who choose to assimilate and those who do not choose to assimilate.
Legal advice was sought and received from the Office of the Attorney General in regard to these matters. In light of this advice, I am now seeking approval for the award of an incremental credit to be based on the completion of the 52 weeks of work, rather than the hours. The associated cost of all tutors receiving the annual increment is, therefore, being forwarded to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for its consideration. I would not expect that a significant amount would arise from this until approximately 2026.
I will come back to the Deputy directly on the pension issue but that sounds logical, given the Deputy's contribution.
We have a slight alteration to the schedule. There was a request to swap Questions Nos. 82 and 79 and I have agreed to that, so we will now move to Question No. 82 in the name of Deputy Colm Burke.
82. Deputy Colm Burke asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science what progress has been made in reducing the time period for electrical-instrument and mechanical apprentices to attend college placement at a facility (details supplied) from the date an apprenticeship commences; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2099/24]
View answerI ask the Minister what progress has been made on reducing the time period for electrical-instrument and mechanical apprentices to attend college placement from the date the apprenticeship commences.
I particularly thank Deputy Burke for arranging the very useful meeting that I had recently in regard to the SOLAS and ETB provision in Bishopstown, Cork. I found it very insightful to hear from people on the front line and thank those people working on the provision of apprenticeships for that work.
Apprenticeship waiting times refer to individuals and the length of time that they are waiting to access training. Apprenticeships are national programmes and the equitable management of access to training means that apprentices can be offered placement at any facility which provides the relevant training. The relevant ETB is committed to increasing capacity at the training centre referenced in the Deputy’s question, which is expected to contribute to a sustained and significant impact on reducing waiting times nationally.
Strong demand for the opportunities available through apprenticeships has meant very significant growth in registrations over the past several years. The year 2023 saw a record number of 8,712 registrations, the highest number ever of newly registered apprentices, of which 6,588 were on craft programmes.
Since the Covid pandemic, there have been significant delays arising from time to time, in particular in regard to phase 2 of training, and we have been doing a lot of work on this. I am pleased to inform Deputy Burke that, as a result, we have secured an additional €67 million for apprenticeships in budget 2024. This will enable growth in the craft system from over 13,000 places in 2022 to over 16,000 places in 2024, which is an increase approaching 25%. The actions already taken have resulted in a very significant drop in the number of people delayed in terms of accessing their training. We now have the lowest figure since August 2021, when there was a peak of 11,859 people waiting. That is now down to 3,919 and the figure has dropped for two months in a row. The ETBs and SOLAS have produced a plan that shows the backlog being eradicated during the course of 2024 and there is, of course, an implementation monitoring group in place in this regard.
Several of the mechanical and electrical programmes referenced by the Deputy require increased capacity. This will be delivered by ETBs, as well as temporary provision by other partners.
As the Minister will know, Cork is doing very well in the pharmaceutical industry. Nine of the ten top pharmaceutical companies in the world are based in Cork. The people I am referring to are essential to that area, such as pipe fitters and mechanical apprentices. It is extremely important that we have that number. At the moment, there is up to a 21-month period from the time the person first gets into an apprenticeship to doing the training within the SOLAS facility. That is where the concern is. As a result, it is difficult to attract people to take on these apprenticeships, because they are delayed in getting access to the technical side of the training. Therefore, there is also a concern from the employer’s side as well.
There is a supplementary question from Deputy Mairéad Farrell.
As the Minister is aware, this is something I have had a particular interest in. I note the Minister mentions the increase in the number of places from 13,000 to 16,000. Does he think he will have the capacity to deal with that? We know it has been impossible to deal with the capacity up to now. On that, the Minister mentioned how just over 3,300 people are waiting. Can he specifically clarify what exactly that figure relates to? That is really important. Obviously, we need people to be trained in order that we can build the houses we clearly require.
I also wish to raise a point of information on the number of people who are coming back into the country compared with the number of people leaving the country. I had a look at this because it had been previously raised with me by Fine Gael. According to the CSO, in the 12-month period prior to April 2023, 30,500 Irish citizens left the country and 29,600 returned. That is important to note for the Dáil record.
There is another supplementary question from Deputy Gould.
The Minister quoted figures on people taking up apprenticeships and stated it was a high number. I will give the Minister a figure that was recently released to me. There are only 83 apprentices who are at phase 7 in Cork. There are 14 electricians and 16 plumbers. Cork needs 39,105 houses by 2028 but there will be 16 plumbers and 14 electricians, if that is what we are turning out. These are the facts, because I got them from the Department. These are the facts that I am telling the Minister here.
I have been told that of a class that completed last year, 15 out of 16 of them emigrated. I hope that plumber will be really busy.
Well, of course, they are not the facts, because the facts show me-----
No, Minister. These are parliamentary questions.
I am not doing this.
You cannot stand there now. These are parliamentary questions.
I am not doing this. I am not doing this shouting. If interest was measured in decibels, you would win the contest every time, but we do not need to shout and roar at each other. You asked me a question and I am going to answer it. You might listen.
In the Cork training centre alone, there are 484 apprentices. In Munster Technological University, which is in Cork, there are 160. In Mallow College of Further Education, there are many multiples of the figures the Deputy has referenced. You are talking-----
No, hang on. You cannot stand up in Dáil Éireann as a representative of the people of Cork and tell them there are only a certain number of people in a programme when there are not.
In phase 7 there are only 83 people.
Just stop. You are picking and choosing one phase in one programme.
That is the final phase.
Today, I will send the Deputy the number of apprentices in Cork. I will send it to him. I will send it to the Ceann Comhairle and we can all tell the truth in this place.
I will send on my response to you so you can have it as well.
You do not need to send me my own figures. I have them.
There is no incentive there. Obviously, you do not-----
The Minister without interruption, please.
I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach. I will do that for Deputy Gould today. I will acknowledge the number of apprentices that are in Cork, or for anyone else who wants the figures relating to their constituency. There are more than ever before in this country. There are more than ever before. These are record numbers. There is an issue with waiting times, which is what this question is about, although we have strayed from it significantly.
Regarding the CSO figures, the Deputy is referencing a different period to what I referenced, which is the composite period between 2017 and 2022. Let us acknowledge that, too.
In relation to Deputy Burke's point, I am pleased to say that as a result of the engagement we have had and a result of the significant investment we have made, we are now seeing the waiting times falling for the first time in quite a considerable time. We saw many people being scheduled in the Cork training centre, Munster Technological University and the Mallow College of Further Education just before the Christmas period. I have the figures here, and I can provide them to the Deputy. We saw an extra 353 apprentices being scheduled just before Christmas for phase 2 training, and an extra 291 apprentices in Cork alone. We saw 644 additional apprentices scheduled for training before Christmas in Cork alone. That is quite a high number of people.
I understand the concerns in the industry. We need to get people in and out quickly in order that they can get the qualifications. This is particularly the case in Cork, where there is a concern around the pharma sector. We also need to encourage people to go into apprenticeships. People should know that if they are going into an apprenticeship this year they will be joining record numbers, they will be going into an expanding sector, their fees have been cut by one third and they have a great chance of a well-paid job. With all 73 apprenticeship programmes except for one, apprentices are still completing their training within a four-year programme, which is what an apprenticeship programme is meant to be. I expect very significant progress on waiting times in 2024. We have already seen those numbers reducing for two months in a row.
Briefly, I thank the Minister for the work he has done. There has been a huge improvement in the support for employers taking on apprentices and for apprentices as well.
I will just respond to the issue of the number of people who are leaving the country and those who are coming back in. Some 144,000 have come back in the last five years and 138,000 have left. Those are the figures over a five-year time period.
I should also say that I will get back to Deputy Mairéad Farrell with specific information on the breakdown of the programmes. I am happy to provide that.
Yes, the figure of 3,000.
I thank the Minister. That is very helpful.
80. Deputy Brendan Griffin asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to outline his priorities for 2024, in particular if he will consider how SUSI can help more students and their families; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2062/24]
View answerThis question is to ask the Minister to outline to the House his priorities for 2024. Can he refer to SUSI and what improvements we will see this year for students? What will that mean for those individual students?
It is my priority in 2024 to continue to drive down the cost of education. I am pleased that the Government and the Fine Gael political party have managed to reduce fees for more than 96,000 students for two years in a row now. This is putting €1,000 back in the pockets of families right across the country. I want to see more progress in relation to that. I want to continue to see us reducing the cost of education so that education will be accessible to everyone.
I want to see things like the renter's tax credit being expanded for the first time to include a parent who pays for his or her child's rent while that child is in college. I want to see that being embedded and I want all parents in Kerry and across the country to know that if you pay for your child's rent, you can claim the €750 tax credit this year. If such children were in college accommodation last year or the year before, people can seek to get it backdated for €500 for each of those two proceeding years.
I want to roll out more student accommodation. We will see accommodation going to construction at DCU and Maynooth this year. I want to make progress on other student accommodation projects that colleges have planning permission for. For the first time in the history of the State, I want to work with the regions and the technological universities to get student accommodation proposals in, which I want done in the first quarter of this year. I want to see an expansion of our apprenticeship programme in order that we can build our homes, retrofit our homes, meet and exceed our housing and climate targets and provide people with more pathways to education and qualifications.
At the end of this month, I intend to outline major new programmes for people with a disability, particularly people with an intellectual disability, to access third-level education after they leave school. I want to see the provision of part-time courses and providing funding for people who do part-time education, because not everybody can go to college, pack their bags and go full time. People are holding down jobs, people are trying to pay mortgages, people are trying to raise kids or care for a parent. This is a matter of funding for part-time courses.
I want to help businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, with the cost of upskilling and reskilling their employees. We will announce programmes regarding both of those initiatives in the coming weeks.
As I said, for two years in a row, we have reduced the student contribution fee. We have brought back postgraduate grants for the first time in 13 years. We have increased all our student grants, effective from last week. We have increased the amount of income you can earn while still qualifying for a number of supports. As I said, this year, I want to embed the changes in part-time education to make sure people who are doing part-time education can also access support with their fees.
I thank the Minister. That is a comprehensive suite of measures that he has secured in the most recent budget and over a number of years. I welcome that. It makes a massive difference to students and their families all over the country. At a Government level, these things might seem like a small change but they can be hugely significant for families, for people who are struggling and for those who are trying to improve their futures and prospects. I welcome every measure that has been taken to date.
There are always things that people in our constituencies will contact us about in order that they can have them changed and improved. I urge the Minister to continue his work in trying to ensure that the costs of third-level education and further education are reduced for as many people as possible. One area in particular that I want to be looked at is the SUSI thresholds because we need to be cognisant of them, given inflation and wage inflation.
I will mention one particular area about which a woman outlined her story to me some time ago. I have raised this previously with the Minister and I want to raise it again, namely, the case of widows, widowers and SUSI. Their scenario needs to be looked at and we need to see if we can do something exceptional for people in that scenario because it is extremely difficult, as the Minister knows, for parents on one income to put children through college. In a case where there is one income that is reasonably good but where there are numerous children, people can get caught in that trap as well.
I agree with the Deputy on both issues and I will look at that widows and widowers issue. I want to look more comprehensively at an overhaul of SUSI to make sure the thresholds are right, that it is supporting people and families across the country and that it is agile enough to understand that people learn in different ways. That is why the part-time change is an important one.
The Deputy is also right about thresholds. There are often people who just about get by. They work hard and do everything right and they find they are just above a threshold and do not qualify for something. That is why I have been determined that when we have been bringing in supports for students and their families, when we reduce the college fees we reduce them for everybody. Anybody who was in a full-time undergraduate course, which is about 96,000 people, got the fee reduction regardless of a means test. Call them what you wish but the squeezed middle, namely, that group of people who find they never qualify for the support, can still be struggling to get by in the cost-of-living crisis. That is why we gave that €1,000 back before Christmas. I meet these people across the country and I know the substantial difference that made to many people.
On the income thresholds and SUSI, in particular, we have a massive shortage of skills and labour in the tourism and hospitality sector and there is a disincentive for many young people. I worked right through college and school, on weekends and even on weeknights, to try to help pay my way through college. For the SUSI gross income consideration, all of that income should be disregarded or there should be stronger disregards. It is an area I ask the Minister to look at. Not only would it benefit the families and students involved but it would also benefit the wider economy, including the hospitality businesses that are struggling to attract people to work in their restaurants, bars and cafés, as well as other retailers across the economy where there is a shortage of labour. There should never be a disincentive to work in this economy and country but some of those disincentives remain and it is an area the Minister could possibly examine with his colleagues in government around the Cabinet table. The Minister might see if he can come up with a better solution to ensure there is always an incentive for people to work, particularly people who are trying to support themselves through college.
I will do that. Deputy Griffin is entirely right; if you go into a café, hotel, pub or shop, people will tell you it can be hard to attract staff. There are many students who are working, who need to work and who want to work but they are worried that if they work too many hours, they might go over the threshold and lose their student grants. The good news is that progress has been made on this with the holiday earnings deduction, as it is called. The amount of income you can earn and have disregarded has increased from €4,500 in 2022 and 2023 to €6,552 currently and I intend to try to make more progress on that in the budgets ahead.
More generally, we have made improvements to the income thresholds, although I accept we have more to do. For example, the reckonable income threshold for a student contribution grant has increased from €62,000 to €100,000. If you have a household income of €100,000 or less, you are eligible for some support in respect of fee reduction. From this September, for the new college year, the income thresholds for students to receive a maintenance grant is increasing to €50,840, up from €46,790, and we will endeavour to build on this.
79. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science the extent to which he and his Department continue to make extra third level places available by whatever means to ensure that this country’s competence in the technical areas remains at the highest possible level; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1821/24]
View answerThis is a question I have put down on many occasions in the past. I want to ensure that we continue to be alert to the fact that there is huge demand, competition and expectation of competence in the technical and apprenticeship areas. I congratulate the Minister on his tremendous work in that area on the one hand and we must ensure the work continues on the other.
I thank the Deputy for his question and kind words. Planning for current and future public and private sector workforce and skills needs and ensuring an appropriate pipeline of suitable qualified graduates is a particular priority of mine. I say public and private because we need to meet the needs of the economy and to continue to work closely with businesses on upskilling and reskilling their workforce and around providing them with the graduates they need. We also need to ensure we are providing enough graduates to meet the needs of our public services. This is something the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach, Deputy Higgins, often raises in making sure we have enough people to work in the disability sector, including speech and language therapists, occupational therapists and physiotherapists. I look at the full spectrum of the needs of our country, both societally and economically.
In terms of our economy, in June 2022 I announced the creation of over 1,000 permanent places across a range of key skills areas, including: an extra 235 places in ICT; an extra 138 places in architecture and construction; an extra 112 places in engineering; and an extra 27 places in the environment. For the first time, since last September students are able to enter new tertiary programmes outside the CAO system. I believe in this; we were losing people who could be good and passionate in a certain area because they were not good at rote learning in school. You can do your degree, regardless of what you get in the leaving certificate, by being assessed in a different way for your suitability to enter, once you meet some minimum requirements. You start your programme in further education and students then progress seamlessly into a guaranteed place to complete that fully accredited degree in higher education. I am pleased to inform the House that I will be announcing a range of new tertiary programmes for September 2024 in the coming months, including new tertiary degrees in ICT, engineering and science.
Springboard+ and the human capital initiative are also ensuring this country's competence in technical areas remains at a high level. Human capital initiative pillar 2 provides additional places in identified key areas of enterprise skills needs, including science, engineering, ICT and professional construction qualifications. Through the budget, I am investing significantly in our apprenticeship system. Apprenticeships have a crucial role to play in meeting Ireland's skills needs and they significantly contribute to meeting the Government's commitments on Housing for All and our climate action plan. Building on the measures taken in previous budgets, an extra €67 million in investment in our apprenticeship system will grow the number of places from 13,000 in 2022 to over 16,000 this year.
I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply. By way of a supplementary question, I ask the extent to which the Minister continues to liaise with industry to determine precisely the requirements in this area. I recognise that we face increased competition, not only across Europe but across the globe, in our ability to fill those technical spaces throughout industry.
The Minister made a point about people who might not get the points and who might go through a different avenue. I dealt with a case this year of a girl who went through Coláiste Stiofáin Naofa and got the maximum results there. The problem was about getting into University College Cork, UCC, to become part of the physical education, PE, programme and become a PE teacher. The course was oversubscribed, there had to be a lottery and she did not make it. The problem for that young lady is that even if she applies this year, it will be a lottery again. This is a person who has done everything right and followed the procedures. For anomalies like that, can a solution be found for the likes of that young woman? I know she wants to do PE teaching but at the moment she is back in a lottery.
On Deputy Durkan's question, we will liaise with industry in terms of our regional skills forums. This is the mechanism that has been looked at by other countries with a degree of interest. We have, in every region in Ireland, a regional skills forum. They bring together the colleges, ETBs, universities and employers in the region to look at what is needed in the south west or Dublin, for example, in skills provision. That is working very well and we need to continue to do that. I was determined, when my Department was created, that it would not just be another Department of Education but a Department of education and skills in accessing and working with industry on the development and co-creation of programmes.
On Deputy Gould's point, I would be happy to look at that specific issue because he is right on this. At the heart of what we are trying to do, which I know the Deputy and his party support, through our National Tertiary Office, is provide people with another opportunity to get into university. Up until now it has been exactly as the Deputy says; if you do not get the points or for whatever other reason, you can start in further education. You could do well and you may or may not get to progress into the university. The Deputy is right that it is a lotto system. What we have done with the tertiary degree is that you are guaranteed, if you start in further education, that once you meet the necessary standard in the exams you will continue seamlessly into the university.
We have only rolled this out since last September. We have 23 degree programmes where we are providing it and we have written to every university in Ireland, including UCC, inviting them to get on board and to come forward with more programmes. Perhaps this is an area where the ETB and UCC would be interested in developing a programme. I can talk with them about that. We intend to double the number of what we call tertiary degree programmes, degrees outside the CAO, from this September. It is an important issue; we are losing too many good people, sometimes to other jurisdictions, because they find they cannot get the degree place here. There have to be other ways.
The CAO will work for lots of people and the leaving certificate will work for lots of people, but there are other people who would make really good PE teachers, nurses or scientists and they need another pathway, so on this one I agree with the Deputy.
I thank the Minister again. I will follow up by saying it is obvious the degree of consultation he referred to is taking place, but the demand is increasing as well in the form of the need to fill spaces throughout industry. The manufacturers and the employers are facing competition at international level and for us to fill those spaces we need to have the places in college or apprenticeships, or a combination of both sufficient to meet the requirement.
The Deputy is entirely correct. He is in this House for a very long time and knows very well the different challenges that come with different stages of the economic cycle. I remember when I first got elected to this House to serve alongside him when we were dealing with an economy with 15% unemployment. The issue employers certainly were not bringing up with us was the difficulty of attracting staff. We are now in a situation of full employment and the highest number of people ever with a job in the country and therefore we cannot rest on our laurels. It is a much better problem to be in an economy with full employment, but there are still jobs that need to be filled. The Deputy is also correct that we are living in a much more globalised and competitive world. There are other issues like international tax rates, for example, where agreements have been settled, meaning the future economic and social well-being of a country will depend on its investment in its people, namely, on talent, on nurturing people and on recognising not everybody who needs to access the education system is just a school leaver, that more and more people will wish to change careers and more and more people will be in jobs which they think are secure today but that will be disrupted by technology in the years ahead. We need to be able to reach into business, especially our small and medium enterprises because they are perhaps not as well-resourced to deal with this challenge, to announce an SME incentivisation scheme to support businesses this year in upskilling and reskilling their workers.
We are presiding over a massive expansion of tertiary education in Ireland, but it is important we do that in an intelligent and targeted way, that we do it in the areas where there is a skills need for either our public services or industry we are trying to attract to and retain in the country and that we do it in ways that are accessible to all our citizens. We need more university places, more apprenticeships and more tertiary degrees and pathways between further education and higher education, as well as more opportunities for in-work training. Even this week, the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, and I launched new micro credentials for people who are in work. If you are in work, but need a new module of education, that has to provided perhaps in a blended or online way that you can do while holding down your job.
81. Deputy Alan Dillon asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science for an update on proposals to develop MSLETB as a College of the Future; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2010/24]
View answerThe green light was given to the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board to proceed to the next stage of developing a multimillion euro college of the future back in November 2022. I would like an update on the current status of this project and any significant milestones achieved to date.
I thank Deputy Dillon for his work with me and his interest on this project. We have been in Castlebar many times and we can report real progress that it is now a university town, Mayo is now a university county and we have the Atlantic Technological University. From my engagement with the president of the university and from the Deputy directly I know how much of a difference that is already making and how much potential there is to go further to drive more courses and programmes into Castlebar. Alongside that we have the very significant milestone announcement we are going to develop a further education and training college of the future, which will be a real, modern, fit-for-purpose, flagship project for Mayo and the north west.
The Deputy monitors this closely so he will be aware that the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB has been working very closely with our agency, SOLAS, to develop the next step, called the preliminary business case, for Castlebar under the college of the future major projects fund. The development of this robust document is fundamental to moving into the next stage of requirements under the infrastructure guidelines, which used to be known as the Public Spending Code guidelines. I am really pleased to tell the Deputy the preliminary business case from the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board was submitted to SOLAS in advance of the deadline of Friday, 12 January. The board had until then to get it in and I am aware it was working extremely hard on that. These business cases and documents will now begin to be evaluated under the various criteria one would expect when it comes to the infrastructure guidelines. We will be engaging directly with the ETB once that evaluation process is completed.
Again, the Deputy knows this because he spoke to me about it previously, but parallel to the development of the business case, the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB is also working to identify its preferred site for the proposal. Much work has gone into this. Officials from my Department and SOLAS have met with the MSLETB and representatives of Mayo County Council to progress this and SOLAS and the Department now just await the outcome of this site identification process. It is good news. The next stage with the documents and the robust case is now over and good work is being done with the local authority, the ETB, my Department on SOLAS on site selection. I expect both of these to move ahead in parallel in the months ahead.
I thank the Minister for his response. It is certainly a very exciting time for both further and higher education in Mayo with the new college campus. This will build on the current links we have in the newly-established ATU and develop a clear pathway for students between further education training and higher education. It is important to strengthen those links. I compliment the Minister on the announcement before Christmas of more than €1 million being invested in the ATU with the establishment of a new apprenticeship programme for electricians. It is really important. We are seeing significant steps in the investment in both apprenticeships, further education and higher education. I compliment the Minister on his significant contribution to this project and his recent visits to Castlebar to see the current Mayo College of Further Education and Training, which is in a state of capital investment.
It is important I emphasise how critical it is we have speed of delivery. I advocate a special project delivery unit within SOLAS to manage these capital projects as Castlebar is one of 12 projects. It is good to hear the preliminary business case has been provided, but people will want to see progress in the months ahead.
I thank Deputy Dillon. I am pleased the Atlantic Technological University and the Castlebar site are now able to provide apprenticeships, but like I was saying earlier, we expand apprenticeship provision. It is important we also try to do it in the regions, because we want people to have an opportunity to be able to access this in their home towns or counties and we want employers in those areas to have an opportunity to access apprentices in their regions as well. Congratulations are due to Dr. Orla Flynn, President of ATU, for her work on that. I am looking forward to seeing the impact it makes in Castlebar and in Mayo.
I assure the Deputy that when it comes to speed of delivery that we very much are not intending to delay this by any manner or means. As a counterpoint to that, these are big projects. This is a massive transformation. We have gone from just about having an emergency fund to fix a leaky roof in a college of further education to having hundreds of millions of euro to spend on capital. We now have somebody in SOLAS leading out on these projects. Avril Behan is a very eminent quantity surveyor leading the way. We will evaluate the cases that have come in as of last Friday and we will work with MSLETB and the local authority in Mayo to finalise site selection as well.
I thank the Minister. It is good to hear there is a pathway in place to see these projects delivered in a timely manner, especially the college of further education in Mayo. It is positive news to hear that there is engagement with the county council on the preferred site at the military barracks. The key consideration for this college will be site selection to serve the needs not just of the students but also of the town and to make it a hub for people to come visit and to get educated. On the back of that, I emphasise it is important that in tandem with ATU and the college of further education we will look at the broader issue of student accommodation. I am aware the Minister is working tremendously hard on that, but there is a shortage of accommodation in Mayo for students. There is a need to not just look at our main cities and universities, but also at the technological universities and the FETs so they are encouraged to submit applications to the Department for small- or medium-type developments. We should also incentivise local authorities to look at suitable sites so builders are encouraged to put in applications. The Minister is working tremendously hard on that, but this is an opportunity to raise it.
I thank the Deputy. He is entirely right. For the technological universities to reach their full potential and indeed for the full benefit to be seen for the regions of Ireland we need to see the provision of student accommodation. That never happened when they were institutes of technology.
I think Waterford Institute of Technology may have, of its own volition, provided some student accommodation but I do not believe any other institute was in a position to do so. I am determined that does not happen with the technological universities because I really believe, for a variety of societal, economic and educational reasons, that it makes so much sense to look at providing student accommodation in the regions. The student accommodation policy approach that I brought to Cabinet only this week will provide for that. I have said consistently that 2024 will be the year in which we invite technological universities to bring forward their proposals so that we can engage on them. We are only 18 days into the year and I expect to be in touch with the TUs this month in relation to those proposals coming forward and then we will engage with them, just as we have engaged with the traditional universities, to determine the best vehicle to advance these projects, to fund them and get them to design and planning stage 2. We need a pipeline of projects in regional Ireland for student accommodation.
84. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science his plans to improve pay and conditions for personal assistants working in further education settings; and to provide an update on the development of the further education disability framework; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2026/24]
View answerThe Minister and I have had multiple interactions regarding personal assistants who work in the further education sector, including in Drogheda Institute of Further Education, DIFE, Ó Fiaich Institute of Further Education, OFE, Cavan Institute and Dunshaughlin Community College. They are doing spectacular work to facilitate students with extra needs but they have a contract that does not work. They have to apply for jobseeker payments, with all of the difficulties that causes. A number of things are required vis-à-vis their pay claim and there is work the Minister can do on an improved payment. It must be ensured this happens as quickly as possible and a system that works within the further education sector is delivered for those with disabilities.
I thank the Deputy Ó for his question but, more importantly, for genuinely engaging constructively with me on this over a sustained period. I have found his engagement to be insightful and very useful to my Department. As he will be well aware, a number of education and training boards, ETBs, have employed personal assistants to provide supports to learners under the fund for students with disabilities. I have been in a number of these ETBs and colleges, including DIFE, with the Deputy, and my officials have engaged with a variety of stakeholders on the issue, including SOLAS, the trade union FÓRSA, and Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, the representative body for the ETBs. Indeed, Deputy Ó Murchú and I had a meeting with a number of personal assistants, which he very kindly convened and which I felt was useful. He knows my position on this. In budget 2024, I secured an additional €2 million for the fund for students with disabilities and was very clear, on receipt of this, that I wanted my officials to examine the position of personal assistants across the tertiary system, how we can support them in the interim and what further steps can be taken. I have engaged with my officials consistently on this and the work is ongoing. I am due to meet the group again, along with the Deputy. We have a date in the diary for him and I to meet the group of personal assistants again shortly and I hope to be in a position to provide an update at that meeting.
I understand that FÓRSA has lodged a formal claim for improvements to the terms and conditions of personal assistants with ETBI. I believe that was lodged in November. Under the Education and Training Board Act 2013, the terms and conditions of service of a member of staff of an ETB are such as may be determined by the board with the necessary ministerial consent. I understand that a response to this claim will issue shortly and my Department is being kept apprised of developments. I have asked my officials to engage constructively, as appropriate, on this matter with a view to securing progress. We discussed adult education tutors earlier and the need for regularisation and a contract. I know that there are a number of parties to this, of which I am only one, but I believe in trying to get to a point where we can bottom out exactly the contract terms and conditions of personal assistants because this would be hugely beneficial to our education system and to the people working in that area.
Regarding to the development of a disability framework for further education and training, my officials are currently gathering information on the range of disability supports and services across the sector. This will inform a detailed piece of policy work around where we need to go.
I welcome the Minister's answer. FÓRSA needed to make that pay claim because that is how we will get to the end point of having a contract that is fit for purpose. Similar to the educators, this is a means of regularising the situation and putting personal assistants on a decent footing, which may be comparable to SNAs or others, because what we have at the moment is not sustainable for students or for personal assistants as employees. On some level, they feel that the situation is indicative of great disrespect, especially as it has gone on for a considerable time.
I welcome the additional funding. Hopefully, the pay claim can be dealt with as quickly as possible and beyond that, I hope we can work on the other terms and conditions to deliver for students with disabilities. That is what this is about; it is about ensuring that they can be facilitated through the further education framework.
There is a big piece of policy work that I have asked my Department to do on how we support people with disabilities throughout the tertiary education system. This is not a political point because it happened long before I was here but over a number of generations we have made good progress on inclusion at primary and second level. We have more to do but there has been good progress. However, there is still a bit of a cliff edge when it comes to third level. I can point to good examples and good practice but I do not want to just be able to point to good examples and practice but to embed that. I want to know that there is a consistency of approach no matter what part of the tertiary education system a student is in. For example, at the moment we have ten ETBs employing 82 personal assistants directly, four ETBs procuring personal assistant support services via external providers and two ETBs that say they have no current demand for personal assistants which, in and of itself, concerns me. The reason I am sharing that information is to highlight the very different approaches across a range of ETBs. We need to get to a much more consistent position so that no matter where students live in Ireland, and regardless of whether they go on to further education, higher education, or an apprenticeship, they can have an expectation in terms of the supports provided to them as a citizen with a disability in this country. I am determined that we do that piece of work.
In the short term, I want to meet the personal assistants with the Deputy and see what we can do with that additional funding for students with disabilities. My Department is also monitoring carefully the claim submitted by FÓRSA.
I agree that this is about ensuring we have consistency across the board and that we provide proper contracts for these personal assistants as employees, based on the work they do. It is also about ensuring that we facilitate those people who require the support of personal assistants.
I agree. The next step is for us to meet with the personal assistants to see what progress can be made on the basis of the additional allocation I received in November, as well as to see how the FÓRSA claim is considered and progressed. My Department is monitoring that closely. I also want to inform the House of my intention to do that broader piece of policy work on ensuring consistency in the approach to supports for students with disabilities, no matter what part of the tertiary education system they access.
85. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science if there are plans for the further expansion of apprenticeship courses in County Louth; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [2027/24]
View answerI ask the Minister to lay out his plans regarding the further expansion of apprenticeship courses in Louth. We are talking about apprenticeships in many different fields at this stage. Provision has moved beyond what could be considered traditional apprenticeships. This relates to what we discussed earlier in terms of the need for multiple pathways for people to deliver the skill sets that are required across the board.
The Deputy could not have known when he submitted his question that I would make an announcement this morning but I am pleased to say that I have just given approval for a major expansion of apprenticeship provision in the Dundalk Institute of Technology, DkIT. A total of 390 additional apprenticeship programme places will be provided there under a programme that will see the refurbishment of vacant space within the P. J. Carroll buildings. I want to congratulate DkIT whose new president, Dr. Diarmuid O'Callaghan, has very much welcomed this announcement. In his comments this morning, he said that he believes this will solidify DkIT's commitment to providing for and responding to the regional and national need for training in the in-demand craft system. I am very much looking forward to that project progressing.
Of course, as the Deputy Ó Murchú will be aware, this comes on the back of a very significant expansion in apprenticeship programmes in the Louth and Meath region. Louth Meath Education and Training Board, LMETB, is providing education and training services to more than 30,000 students. LMETB had a total of 2,339 apprentices registered at the end of 2023 in various programmes, including hairdressing, network engineering, ICT software development, plumbing, carpentry and joinery, pipe fitting, electrical, tool making, motor mechanics, metal fabrication and wood manufacturing and finishing. LMETB established the Advanced Manufacturing and Training Centre of Excellence, AMTCE, in Dundalk in 2021. The Deputy will also be aware that last year I launched the Drogheda apprenticeship training hub, which provided for a very significant expansion of apprenticeships. Drogheda has 336 additional places, while Dundalk has 390 additional places.
That is all very welcome but we do need to see movement on a regional skills and training centre. We also need to deal with space constraints at OFE for certain courses. It may be possible to deliver additional space through the programme announced by the Minister this morning.
On DkIT, Dr. O'Callaghan has done significant work in the past while, including enhancing the relationship with Maynooth University, which will provide solutions for DkIT into the future.
Deputy, will you give your remaining time to your colleagues who want to ask some supplementary questions?
I ask the Minister to provide details on those 3,000 places and exactly what they relate to.
In addition, have critical skills and immigration visas ever been looked at in terms of trades? I have looked at that and it did not seem to be clear. On the five-year period the Minister mentioned, I was talking specifically about 2022-23, when there was a doubling of people with visas going to Australia and there was an increase in the number of people leaving over those coming in.
The question referenced the expansion of apprenticeship places. I ask the Minister, and I have already asked for this, for a purpose-built apprentice centre in Cork under the heading of either Munster Technological University or the ETB. The northside would be the ideal location for that. We need multiple campuses. I once again ask the Minister to look at that. It is an area that requires additional spaces. We have the capacity on the northside to deliver it.
