Ruairí Ó Murchú
Question:8. Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [2746/24]
View answerTuesday, 13 February 2024
Questions (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
Bríd Smith
Question:9. Deputy Bríd Smith asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [4036/24]
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Richard Boyd Barrett
Question:10. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [4019/24]
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Paul Murphy
Question:11. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [4022/24]
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Mick Barry
Question:12. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [5334/24]
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Paul McAuliffe
Question:13. Deputy Paul McAuliffe asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [5224/24]
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Pádraig O'Sullivan
Question:14. Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [5225/24]
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Cian O'Callaghan
Question:15. Deputy Cian O'Callaghan asked the Taoiseach the expected timeline for the citizens' assemblies committed to in the programme for Government. [5296/24]
View answerOral answers (6 contributions)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 to 15, inclusive, together.
The Programme for Government: Our Shared Future committed to establishing four citizens’ assemblies on the following topics: biodiversity loss; the type of directly elected mayor and local government structures best suited for Dublin; drugs use; and the future of education. Three of those four citizens’ assemblies have now concluded their work and submitted their reports to the Oireachtas. The Dublin Citizens' Assembly concluded its meetings in October 2022 and submitted its report to the Oireachtas in December just gone by. The Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage published its response to the report in December. The Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss concluded its meetings in January 2023 and submitted its report to the Oireachtas in March 2023. The Oireachtas Committee on the Environment and Climate Action published its response to the report in December 2023. The Minister and officials in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage are now leading on the preparation of a whole-of-government response to the recommendations of both the Dublin Citizens' Assembly and the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss, and these responses will be published in due course, once they have been finalised.
The Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use concluded its meetings in October and submitted its report to the Oireachtas in December. The report was published on 25 January and the Dáil and Seanad will now refer the report to an Oireachtas committee for consideration. I recently met with Paul Reid, the chairman of that assembly, who briefed me on the work done. I thank him and, indeed, all those who took part in the citizens’ assembly and the secretariat for their participation and commitment to the task.
The Government will consider the question of further citizens’ assemblies in due course. However, there is an extant commitment for a citizens' assembly on education to begin its work this year.
In relation to the previous question, what I was talking about is the worst of circumstances, really chaotic circumstances where the council is probably looking at nuclear options. The fact is that we do not necessarily have all of the resources required to deal with what are very complex cases. I am also talking about circumstances that have reached the level of chaotic criminality and whatever the fears are in relation to those kids, this is having a detrimental impact on the wider community. We need better processes for dealing with such circumstances.
Regarding the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use, we are very glad it happened and welcome its final report. We have been over and back in this House in relation to the failure of the war on drugs. We all know the reality we are dealing with, particularly in disadvantaged areas that are under the cosh of criminal gangs and drug-debt intimidation. We all know that an awful lot of this is fed by those who have resources and are out on Friday and Saturday nights taking cocaine. We have to deal with the realities of the world we are in and we need to do something better than what we have been doing to date. I accept that we must measure what we do vis-à-vis other states but we must make sure there is no hold-up. I ask the Taoiseach to give us an indication of the timeline for getting the committee up and running and getting from there to action and legislation.
I had a very interesting encounter with the Irish Second-Level Students Union yesterday. I spent the afternoon discussing with students from secondary schools up and down the country the issues they are concerned about. It highlighted for me the urgency of radical reform of our secondary school system and a few points should be borne in mind in that regard. One of the things they said was that there is absolutely nowhere for students to go if they are feeling anxious, worried, scared or bullied because we do not really have the necessary staff resources in schools or people who are trained to help. They were very keen on the idea that we would have psychologists in every school so that there would be somewhere to go. They were also scathing about the curriculum in the sense that most of it is rote learning out of books rather than more participatory education involving field trips, visits to museums or theatres, or meetings with people who are specialists and experts in a particular area, whereby they would feel motivated and would participate in their education, rather than just having to learn off books. That was very interesting but obviously it requires resources. They said that buses for things like that were a huge cost that most schools could not incur. They also said that when school inspections happen, the school inspectors never talk to the students about the issues affecting the school. It is all curriculum-based, rather than engaging with the students themselves about the issues affecting them.
I raise the issue of the future of education and the citizens' assembly on education that was mooted. I ask the Taoiseach to provide a timeline on when that might actually be instigated. I raise this because now is a very pertinent time, particularly in the context of the skills crisis that is facing the country. I acknowledge the work that has been done on higher education over the last number of years, including the provision of extra places for apprentices and so on. A citizens' assembly would be the right forum to question what education is for, to determine how we devise an education system going forward to produce a sustainable society and to answer all of those big questions that need to be asked about how we develop our future education policy. Of particular interest is the area of special education. Do we still follow a special school model or do we become more inclusive in mainstream school campuses, for example? The issue of school transport needs to addressed. Should every child have an equal right to access school and so on? If the Taoiseach could provide us with an update on when that citizens' assembly might be formed, that would be appreciated.
It is good news that a special committee is being set up to consider the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use. That is a good development about which I have a number of questions. First, when will that committee commence and, second, how long will it go on for? If it goes on for a protracted period, it could run into the next general election and then nothing will happen. I hope the special committee will be short-lived, running for only three or four months. That would at least give the Government some time to consider its recommendations and any possible legislative changes based on those recommendations.
I thank the Deputies for their questions. In response to Deputy Ó Murchú, I understand what he is saying about complex and chaotic cases. I have come across them myself but as every case is different, it is difficult to comment without knowing the circumstances. I know the Deputy appreciates that.
A number of Deputies raised the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use which was discussed at Cabinet today. The Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, brought a memo to Cabinet establishing a dedicated committee, which will be made up, if I remember correctly, of 14 members, both Senators and TDs. The Independent Members will be asked to nominate a chairperson because it is their turn in the rotation. We expect it to be up and running next month or certainly no later than April. There are some technicalities around that. The committee is being given seven months to carry out its work and produce a report, but it does not have to take seven months. It could be done more quickly. It was pointed out to me by my staff who were involved in the citizens' assembly and by the chairman, Paul Reid, that because all of the different interest groups and experts appeared before the assembly, it is not necessarily the case that the special committee should have to do that all over again. Ultimately, it is going to be a decision for the members and the Chair as to whether they want to have everyone come in again or whether they would be happy enough to get it done in one day. That is their call, not ours.
What I would say in relation to the three takeaways from the report is that the chairman, Paul Reid, was very clear on these things. He said that we should have a dedicated committee and not just refer the report to the health or justice committee because it is about health and justice and a lot more. That is why we decided to go ahead with a dedicated committee. Another takeaway is that we should develop an Irish model that works for Irish circumstances and not try to copy a model from any other jurisdiction. He was also very keen to point out that while the citizens' assembly recommended decriminalisation and a health-led approach, it made many other recommendations as well. He was keen that this not just be about the issue of decriminalisation, how that works and what it would mean, important as that is.
Deputy Boyd Barrett spoke about children who are in difficulty needing someone to go to and I know from my visits to schools and from talking to young people in primary and secondary schools that many schools have a school chaplain. In the past, that would have been a religious person but that is now normally not the case; it is a teacher with special training. We have increased the number of guidance counsellors too. I had a chance to visit Foróige services and Jigsaw services which are really good services, where they exist, but I appreciate that it may not be the case that every student in every school has access to the supports he or she needs.
On school visits, I do a lot of them too and I have to say when I visit primary and secondary schools around the country I am so impressed with how much education has evolved and now much more interactive it is now than it was when I was in school. There is so much more technology and engagement now. Technology being available to schools is really of huge and crucial importance.
I do not know if inspectors talk to students as part of carrying out inspections but I think they should do. If it is not done, it sounds like a good idea. Any time one inspects a service, one would often ask the service users what they think so if that is not done as a matter of course, I would agree with the Deputy that it ought to be done because it is really important to hear the voice of students when it comes to the quality of their education. It is their education in the end.
Finally, in response to Deputy O'Sullivan's question on the citizens' assembly on the future of education, we have not taken a decision on the timing of that yet but it is intended that it be done this year.
I think we need to have it set up, ideally by the middle of the year. Citizens' assemblies do not fall when the Oireachtas falls, so the election date is not a determinant in that regard, but we would like to have it set up this year. The Minister, Deputy Foley, is working on the terms of reference for that.