I wish to introduce Mr.Dalton, Secretary General of the Department, and I ask him to deal with that question.
1998 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.
Vote 19 - Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Resumed).
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Resumed).
Vote 21 - Prisons (Resumed).
Vote 22 - Courts (Resumed).
Vote 23 - Land Registry and Registry of Deeds (Resumed).
Mr. T. Dalton (Secretary General, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform) called and examined.
Acting Chairman
Mr Dalton
Would it be possible for the Deputy to repeat the question?
On the last occasion the Secretary General was before the committee he stated that there was a perception internationally that Ireland is a soft touch in terms of its social welfare system and other facilities it provides, almost automatically on arrival to the 96% of people who come here and who are not legitimate asylum seekers. Has the position changed or are we still perceived in this way? The Secretary General indicated that Ireland had been advertised on the Internet as a great place to go if one is an asylum seeker.
Mr Dalton
We probably are still perceived as a desirable location. The figures indicate that this is the case. We are still acquiring approximately 1,000 people per month and that figure is higher than the one which obtained when I last appeared before the committee. There are indications, sometimes, that it is about to drop but it does not drop significantly. The indications are that we are a desirable location.
Some of the regimes that have been introduced abroad are probably more stern in nature than the regime which applies here. To that extent, we are still seen as something of a soft touch. However, the accommodation situation is likely to change that, because the simple reality is that there is not sufficient accommodation available. I do not know what would happen to programme refugees if they came here next year. I could not predict what would happen.
With my hand on my heart, I could not say that they would not be offered accommodation on a flotel. Incidentally, no one has been offered such accommodation as yet because flotels have always been the option of last resort. They are the last alternative between people being accommodated or being forced to live on the streets. That is their literal purpose. Their use was put forward in that context. They are not meant to be used as a first option and, for humanitarian reasons, no one wants to see them used. They are used throughout Europe but we will not used them unless we are obliged to do so. However, if it comes down to a choice between children being obliged to live on the streets or being offered a place in a flotel, the best option would be to choose the latter.
I thank Mr. Dalton for his reply.
What are our obligations in relation to refugees in general? I do not refer to those who enter the country under the programme system. Which Department is responsible for dealing with queries about refugees under the Geneva Convention?
Mr. Mac Kernan
Because of the fact that we have acceded to and ratified the Refugee Convention of 1951, we are obliged to receive people in need of refuge and to protect them. We have an obligation that we have freely entered into as a member of the United Nations and, therefore, we have taken on the obligation to take refugees, it being assumed that this would be done in a systematic and programmed way in co-operation with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and in accordance with the definition of what is a refugee.
It should also be borne in mind that the United Nations will endeavour to take account of the capacity of individual countries to absorb and integrate refugees and that there will be a degree of burden sharing. I refer here strictly to programme refugees. That burden sharing is reflected in the comparative numbers received by one country rather than another. There are 3,000 programme refugees in Ireland if you count the Kosovars who entered the country quite rapidly. One must have sympathy for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which is obliged to deal with this rapid and accelerating influx of people.
There are 3,000 refugees in the country, some of whom have been here since the end of the Vietnam war in the 1970s. If you compare the number of Vietnamese refugees in this country to the numbers in France and the United States, you will find that we do not have that many.
I would compliment——
Mr. Mac Kernan
We have obligations that we freely enter into. That is the answer.
Acting Chairman
Would Mr. Dalton care to comment or is Deputy Durkan satisfied with Mr. MacKernan's reply?
I accept the answer. I compliment the Refugee Agency for its work in relation programme refugees. The programme works extremely but we are faced with new problems. At the summit which gave rise to the Dublin Convention, member states of the European Union decided to work together to arrive at a workable solution to the issue of refugees. That does not appear to have happened. On one hand there is a liberal view that everyone should be accommodated, regardless of their circumstances, while, on the other, there is the hard-line view that nobody should be accommodated. The balance lies somewhere in between. The sooner we achieve such a balance the better it will be for everybody concerned. I refer here to refugees and asylum seekers living here and also to our own citizens.
Mr. Mac Kernan
The Deputy is referring to the Dublin Convention.
Yes.
Mr. Mac Kernan
The effective implementation of the Dublin Convention is the subject of ongoing work, essentially between Justice Ministers. I am aware of what is involved here but it might be more profitable for the Deputy to direct his question to Mr. Dalton. I can inform the Deputy that under the Dublin Convention, broadly speaking, if somebody arrives in Ireland and their claim for refugee status is manifestly unfounded, they should return to the country of the EU from which they travelled to Ireland. That is the essential provision. However, Mr. Dalton would be better able to answer the Deputy's question.
Mr. Dalton
The fundamental purpose of the Dublin Convention was to ensure that people would have their cases addressed in the first country in Europe in which they arrived. It was intended to avoid what is called "asylum shopping" whereby people would move from country to country and lodge applications and possibly fail in their applications in several countries. The convention is not working as well as was expected. In fact, it is the subject of ongoing discussion in Europe. One of the major difficulties with it is trying to prove that somebody landed in another European country or identifying which country they landed in. For example, if 15 or 20 people travel to Ireland from the UK and even if they state they come from London, the UK authorities will not necessarily accept that they should process these people's applications under the Dublin Convention, because it must then be proven that these people did not arrive from Hamburg or somewhere else in Europe.
The Dublin Convention is not working as expected because the basic idea behind it was that the analysis should be carried out in the first country. This is one of the basic reasons for introducing the fingerprinting system, which, I know, is a sensitive issue. However, the idea is to ensure that with an exchange of fingerprint information across Europe that you can establish where somebody arrived first, or if they arrived somewhere else and made an application there, and whether their application was accepted or rejected in another jurisdiction. That is the fundamental purpose of the Dublin Convention.
The Deputy referred to a wider issue, namely, the approach adopted by Europe, outside the Dublin Convention, to asylum generally. At their last meeting in Tampere, Finland, the Heads of Government reached an agreement on adopting a cohesive and co-ordinated European policy on asylum. That has not happened yet. It is under discussion at the moment. It is a very large task and there are substantial questions to be asked. The approach of Europe is what could be described as a fortress approach. In other words, there is recognition that unless there is some system of regulating the flow of people in to the European Community, the numbers could become enormous.
On the other hand, there is the reality of worldwide migration. I do not know what answer the western world, and certainly Europe, is going to adopt in the end to that reality of worldwide migration, but the approach at the moment is one of trying to protect the external borders, trying to regulate the system of entry and trying to have some sort of cohesion within Europe as to how asylum seekers are treated in the different jurisdictions. That is where the plan to have a cohesive approach stands.
Proportionate to our size and economic capabilities, how do we rate in absorbing refugees or asylum seekers in comparison with other European countries, in comparison with Switzerland, Germany? I know there are very high levels of asylum seekers in those countries.
Mr. Dalton
It varies but at the moment, in proportional terms, we are about second or third on the table. In other words, the numbers arriving in proportion to our population. On the other hand, it has to be borne in mind that other European countries already have substantial numbers of people who arrived——
Over a number of years?
Mr. Dalton
Yes, over a number of years. At the moment I think we are second in terms of the proportion of arrivals to population.
One of the things that was envisaged during the formulation of the Dublin Convention was bringing some sort of order into the way the issue was handled throughout Europe. I note what you say in relation to that at present. It is still in a vacuum, as it were, and has not been concluded. To what extent can we in this country influence the conclusion of those discussions? I and I am sure everybody here would be concerned about the kind of discussions taking place here at present on this issue. We do have moral responsibilities in these matters which we have to accept. There is no sense in trying to shirk our responsibilities. At the same time, we should not have a situation that is out of control or disproportionate to what would normally apply to a country of this size. We should take our fair share of the burden. To what extent are we motivating our European colleagues towards that objective now?
Mr. Dalton
Let me pick up on one comment the Deputy made. He expressed concern about the sort of debate that is taking place. We strongly share that concern. We are always conscious of the need to avoid saying things that are wrong from the humanitarian point of view. Apart from anything else it creates a law and order situation - and we happen to be dealing with that end of the business as well - because the outfall of racism is extremely serious from that point of view. In terms of influence, we participate in all European fora on this business. As I said before, I find it difficult to find somebody in the Department who is not on a plane somewhere in Europe. We participate at official and at ministerial level in all endeavours which are geared towards the production of an asylum policy for Europe. We are fully involved in it and we can influence it there at the table, and we are doing it all the time.
To what extent are we bringing it to a conclusion, to get to the stage whereby an international or Europe-wide agreement is put in place, we know we have to work to, we deal with our share of that problem, and we do it to the best of our ability?
Mr. Dalton
I could not put a time frame on it. The problem - and it is like anything else in the EU - is one of trying to get all the countries to a settled point of view. I would imagine that it is something on which there will be conclusions more swiftly than there have been in other areas such as judicial co-operation and many other areas that were dealt with in the third pillar. This area is regarded around Europe if not as the top issue, then one of the top issues not only by Ministers for Justice but by Heads of Government. I have participated in these meetings and Heads of Government talk about this as the number one issue when they get together. It is regarded in Europe as a top priority, driven by Heads of Government, driven by Justice Ministers. I would expect results in that area quicker than in many other areas in the Union.
How many refugees or asylum seekers have we, by national origin, in the country at present?
Mr. Dalton
It is difficult to say. Since 1997 we have had over 20,000 applications for refugee status. We estimate that the number in the country is in the region of 15,000. That is an estimate, because people move to and fro and they disappear off the system for a while and come back into it again. We do not know precisely. It is something on which we are going to have some research done, not only to find out what the position is but also to find out what it is costing, which is a big consideration.
In terms of the breakdown in terms of people arriving now, about 75-80% are Nigerians and Romanians, and they are half and half, that is 30-35% are Nigerian, and the same proportion is Romanian. The rest are divided between the rest of the world and are from places like the Congo, Algeria, Kosovo, but mainly African. We get flows at certain times from certain places which is not that easy to understand, such as Poland from where we have had a number of applicants. The bulk are Romanian and Nigerian, and they represent 75-80% of all applicants.
Acting Chairman
We must vacate the premises. After 2 p.m. we will be refugees ourselves, so we had better ensure we complete our work.
This is the Committee of Public Accounts whose basic responsibility is to see that money is being spent properly. In relation to the Refugee Agency, I am particularly impressed with the accounts and the work that has been done with the small amount of money that is involved. There is only £330,000 of a grant to deal with 3,000 programme refugees. Even the rent, at £15,000, would not be sufficient for a decent apartment in certain parts of Dublin. That can be taken as some form of praise. Taking into account the small amount of money that is there, are there sufficient resources within the Refugee Agency, sufficient people employed and sufficient IT resources, to do the work that the agency, or the Interim Board Reception and Integration Agency as it is becoming? Is there a requirement for any additional resources or do you feel that the present resources are sufficient?
Mr. Mac Kernan
The present resources are sufficient for what the agency has been doing. As I said in answer to Deputy Lenihan, one would hope that part of the contribution which the Refugee Agency will be able to make in its new location will be a certain synergy with the other bodies that would be involved in dealing with a much larger problem. It may well be that experience will show that the resources of the Refugee Agency might need to be boosted in terms of personnel and so on. As matters stand, the resources are adequate.
There is an important point to be made in regard to the Refugee Agency which should be borne in mind, that is, that part of the reason it has been so effective is that it has a high degree of independence. We want it to be able to operate relatively independently but to operate with the purpose of endeavouring and helping to make the programme refugees themselves as independent as possible. It has worked well because it has discouraged dependency and encouraged independence on the part of the refugees which is what one would want to do. That is reflected in the accounts.
Thank you.
Acting Chairman
Thank you, indeed. The committee notes the annual financial statements 1994-98 of the Refugee Agency. I sincerely thank Mr. Mac Kernan and his officials.
The witness, Mr. MacKernan, withdrew.
Acting Chairman
We have to deal with paragraphs 15 and 20. They have not been noted. Will Mr. Dalton please introduce his officials and we shall take it from there.
Mr. Dalton
Seán Aylward is the Director General of the Irish Prisons Service, Ken Bruton is the finance officer, Bernice O'Neill is to be the refugee commissioner and Máirtín de Búrca, principal officer, deals with the disability area and the Disability Authority.
Acting Chairman
Thank you. Who is taking it for the Department of Finance?
Mr. O’Farrell
I am Jim O'Farrell on the public expenditure side and I am accompanied by Cormac Cronin on the staffing side.
Acting Chairman
Thank you. Paragraph 20 is very technical. We discussed it at a previous meeting on 3 February. The officials were present but the Secretary General was abroad on business on that occasion. For that reason we have asked him to come back in. Paragraph 15 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:
15. Irish Council of People with Disabilities
The Irish Council of People with Disabilities (the Council) is an independent State funded body established in January 1997 and funded through the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Council was established on an interim basis primarily to support local disability networks and to oversee the establishment of a permanent Council. Funding of the interim Council for 1997 and 1998 amounted to £398,000 and £876,000, respectively. The interim Constitution which governed the affairs of the interim Council expired on 31 December 1998 without the interim Council having completed its work on the introduction of a permanent Constitution and elected Council, due to be in place on 1 January 1999.
In line with the Constitution of the interim Council the accounts were subject to audit by a private firm of auditors. The accounts for 1997 and 1998 had not been certified by the auditors by 31 August 1999.
During 1998, the Department became concerned with apparent serious deficiencies in the Council's financial management and its credibility. The documentary evidence available to the Department suggested failure on the part of the Council to follow proper accounting procedures and a very unsatisfactory approach to expenditure control, including the high level of expenditure incurred by individual board members and the apparently inordinate amount of travel by some board members; the high costs incurred in the engagement of legal services to no apparent advantage; the very high level of settlement reached on the termination of employment of a former chief executive officer; the failure on the part of the council to recover from the relevant international organisations the travelling and subsistence expenses which it advanced to its delegates for attendance at meetings of these organisations; advances made to bodies although they were in significant credit at the time and had not submitted expenditure plans; decisions on the allocation of significant funds which appeared to have been made in an informal manner and, on occasions, by individual board members.
The Department advised the Council of its concerns in June and July 1998 pointing out that, at local level, there was little evidence that the Council had been involved with the local disability networks other than handing out money and computers. There had been suggestions that the networks were suffering from lack of leadership, motivation, direction and training by the Council. The Department concluded that the credibility and reputation of the Council had been seriously damaged and directed the Council to take remedial action. This included the appointment, in consultation with the Department, of a full time Chief Executive Officer with an appropriate level of authority and an agreed job description, the installation of proper financial controls precluding expenditure without the proper authority, the establishment of sub-committees to liaise with the Department on the Council's operations and the provision of proposals and a time frame for the establishment of a permanent Council.
In September 1998, following receipt of information from a senior official of the interim Council about particular payments, the Accounting Officer instructed the Department's Internal Audit Unit to carry out an immediate audit investigation of the interim Council's financial affairs under the following terms of reference: to examine the financial records of the organisation with a view to establishing the credibility of the internal controls and procedures which give assurance that all expenditure is in accordance with good accounting practice and to examine the payment of salaries and expenses to the Council's administrator and the agreements, conditions of employment and resolutions of the board to support these payments.
The draft report prepared by the Department's internal audit unit, was critical of the manner in which the interim Council managed its financial affairs. The report was furnished in late November 1998 and circulated on a confidential basis to those people to whom reference was made and to members of the management board of the interim Council. They were asked to furnish any comments they might have to the Department by early December 1998. All responses received were forwarded to the Internal Audit Unit for consideration and some of these caused minor revisions to be made to the report. However, before the report could be released, legal action seeking a judicial review was initiated by the former chairman of the interim Council who had resigned in June 1998. Consequently, the final report, while complete, was never issued and its contents are known only to its authors.
In response to my request for sight of the audit report, the Accounting Officer informed me that legal advice furnished by the Chief State Solicitor's Office states that it cannot be formally released to me until the legal proceedings are finalised. However, the Accounting Officer assures me that there is reason to believe that the matter can be resolved between the parties and that the audit report will be released to me then.
He also advised me that there is prima facie evidence to suggest that there was some misappropriation of public funds, but that this would be clarified by the audit report. In the meantime revised financial control arrangements were put in place in October 1998, immediately on receipt of a preliminary oral report from the head of the internal audit unit and have operated without interruption to date.
The Accounting Officer also stated that, in January 1999, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on the recommendation of independent consultants, appointed a seven person steering group for a nine month period to oversee the establishment of a permanent Irish Council of People with Disabilities. While the steering group is progressing well in its work it now appears that it will be seeking an extension of time to complete its tasks. This is because of unexpected difficulties which it encountered in the course of its work and the time required by the consultative process in which it is engaged with the membership of the Council in the course of preparing a new constitution for the Council.
Mr. Purcell
You will recall that on the previous occasion that the Accounting Officer was before the committee on this matter regarding the Irish Council of People with Disabilities he felt restricted in what he could say because of legal considerations which also prevented him from making the internal audit report on an investigation into the financial affairs of the council available. In the interim the impediments to release of the report have been overcome and copies of the report have since been provided to the committee and to my office around the time of the last scheduled meeting in February.
A reading of the report confirms there were, indeed, shortcomings in the administration of the organisation in the period up to late 1998. The summary of findings at section 3 of the report gives an insight into the type of deficiencies that bedevilled the organisation - turf wars at a senior level, a lack of management involvement in financial administration, poor financial control and overall a lack of appreciation of the accountability requirements for public moneys.
The consequences of the deficiencies are contained in the report proper. They include unauthorised salary and travel payments, remuneration payments without deduction of income tax, funds being issued to the county organisations without supporting documentation and a failure to recover moneys due to the council are the main manifestations of the deficiencies.
As the Accounting Officer stated at the meeting on 2 December last revised financial procedures have been put in place since October 1998 and he indicated that they have been operating satisfactorily since. Things have moved on somewhat in that a steering group appointed by the Minister to run the affairs of the council have registered a new company called People with Disabilities in Ireland Limited. The steering group will form the basis of the national board and is currently in the process of recruiting a new chief executive officer for the company.
Acting Chairman
Thank you Mr. Purcell. Does Mr. Dalton wish to make an opening comment.
Mr. Dalton
I spoke at some length about this before. I accept there is no doubt about it and the report demonstrates that the control situation was totally unsatisfactory. I said before and I will say it again, it is not a way of excusing what happened, but it is important to bear in mind that this was a completely new experiment involving people who were disabled in many ways. They were people who were keen to control their own affairs. That was seen to be a good thing because it had to do with the empowerment of the disabled. Unfortunately, it carried this downside of a serious lack of control. I have gone into that and I said it was not excusable from a financial point of view.
Once we knew something had gone wrong we did control the finances in the sense that we said no more resources would be paid to the council without the specific say-so of the Department's finance officer. He is still assigned to the council and is now working with the steering committee which has taken the reins.
I might mention briefly some of the things that have happened. The Comptroller and Auditor General has already mentioned that the finances are now in order. We still do not have audited accounts for 1997, 1998 and 1999 but I am informed they are almost ready and will be available shortly. The steering group has come up with a new constitution which has the acceptance of 97% of the people who voted on it, which is a good result. Elections will be held for the networks in May or June of this year. A major drive for membership of the council is under way. The chief executive officer post, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, is advertised.
Litigation in all but two cases has been settled. The case of the administrator, whose salary increased quite significantly without clear explanations as to why, is still before the Employment Appeals Tribunal because the person concerned is unhappy with her treatment. There is also a separate court case outstanding where the right of the steering committee to access the database of the Authority was questioned. A Circuit Court judge has reserved judgment on that. Apart from that, the cases involving the chief executives and so on have been settled. The steering group has had its period of office extended by the Minister to December 2000 so as to bring its work to conclusion and hand over a healthier organisation to the council.
Acting Chairman
Thank you.
Mr. Dalton says this was a kind of trial experiment that the disabled community, or their representatives voices presumably, were going to be represented on the board of this body. Is that correct?
Mr. Dalton
That is correct.
Was the entire board of management or directors or whatever entirely made up of disabled persons or were there persons who were representatives or spokespersons, campaigners, advocates, lobbyists for the disabled also on the board?
Mr. Dalton
As far as I know, I have just been told. I thought they were exclusively people who had a disability of one kind or another. About 90% were people who had some form of disability. The disabilities varied.
How many were on the board of directors, if that is the term used?
Mr. Dalton
There were 30 on the board——
Thirty.
Mr. Dalton
——of whom 27 would have some form of disability.
Who were the seven people on the board who were not disabled?
Mr. Dalton
I said 27 would have suffered from some form of disability. I had better get you precise figures on this in case people come after and say they were available when they were not.
There are only three people who were not disabled.
Mr. Dalton
Three people.
Who were they, just to get an impression of the people involved?
Mr. Dalton
Parents and advocates of the disabled.
Does Mr. Dalton mind my asking him who they were?
Mr. Dalton
I do not have the names of the people concerned, but I can get them for the Deputy.
It was an experiment that went badly wrong. There are legal misappropriation issues involved. I am intrigued about the travel aspect. If what happened is not a misappropriation of resources it may be some form of abuse by members of the council. There is reference in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report to unnecessary and high levels of travel by members of the board or by management personnel. At what level did this abuse relating to travel by members of this body take place?
Mr. Dalton
This has all been resolved. People were not familiar with the normal requirements regarding travel that apply in the public service in terms of submitting claims and keeping a precise mileage record. Therefore, some of the travel claims tended to be on the healthy side. Some people, because of their special requirements, had to bring assistants. That would have added to the costs involved. They would have submitted a claim for their travel expenses and one for their assistant.
I do not want to get into the detail of that. I appreciate what Mr. Dalton said. If a person brought an assistant, the additional cost of that person's claim for expenses is valid. We are not talking about the argument that is often made against charitable or worthy bodies, that some of their members have a good time at the expense of the charity by attending ridiculous conferences in some faraway places. Was there an element of that involved in this instance?
Mr. Dalton
No. It would be unfair to apply that argument to the people concerned. It was not like that. While some of the claims for travel expenses should have been better presented and should not have been as high as they were, the main problem that arose was that the administrator was to get travel expenses, irrespective of whether she travelled. The administrator had an element built into her monthly payments in that she was to get £500 a month tax free, and she claimed it was to apply, irrespective of whether she travelled.
Has that matter been referred to the Revenue Commissioners?
Mr. Dalton
That matter is in the report and the report is available. That is among the issues that are part of the litigation at present. The Garda also has a copy of this report.
We do not want to stray into those areas. In terms of the travel expenses involved, were the three members of the board who are not disabled entitled to different travel expenses compared to those members of the board who are disabled? In other words, one can allow a certain amount of increased expenses for the disabled members of this board, given that there are extra expenses involved in terms of purpose built vehicles to bring them here and there and the additional expenses involved for assistants. Is there a massive dichotomy between the level of travel expenses incurred by the 27 disabled members and the three non-disabled members of that board? Is there evidence that travel expenses were inordinately high for the three non-disabled members of that board?
Mr. Dalton
I do not believe the excesses in claims for travel expenses can be broken down between those claimed by the able bodied and disabled people. Particular individuals caused the difficulty.
Would it be fair to conclude that the inordinate level of travel expenses that were claimed was not restricted solely to the disabled people?
Mr. Dalton
The information I have is that they were the people who were most involved in the travel. I could not say that there were not claims from the able bodied people. My impression is that the travel claims of some of the disabled people were inflated. In saying that, I want members to bear in mind that these people are disabled.
I am sensitive to that. If one was to take account of the normal legitimate travel expenses that would be allowed to members of the public service, how do the travel expenses of the three members of this board who were not disabled compare to the general Civil Service rate for such travel?
Mr. Dalton
I do not have that detail, but I would be glad to send it on to the committee.
I would like to have that information as it would give us an insight into whether this was something that was loosely organised suddenly became disorganised and was an experiment, or whether it was something that was a target for serious abuse.
Acting Chairman
Mr. Dalton mentioned that these three people were advocates for disabled groups. Having been involved with a number of disabled groups, it is often the case that one cannot get a member of one of those groups who is capable or willing to travel. I would not like the impression to given, which would be unfair, that as the people involved were able bodied they were not fully representing the group. I presume they might have been advocates for three different groups.
Mr. Dalton
They were, Chairman. I would be as concerned as the Chairman about being fair to them. When all this is worked out, there will not be a great deal of money involved. The circumstances that are most difficult to explain are those surrounding the departure of the two chief executives and the severance payments that were made in the first instance without reference to the Department and the position of the administrator which is still before the Employment Appeals Tribunal. Her salary jumped from £24,000 a year to in the region of £34,000 a year within a few months without any paper trail or explanation for it. Those were the issues of most concern.
This is a very heavy document. It targets particular individuals. As Mr. Dalton said, the two items he raised are the significant ones. There are many smaller items outlined that are similar to what takes place in any business, which are irregular and wrong. How much money was given to this council in 1996, 1997 and 1998?
Mr. Dalton
In the region of £650,000 to £700,000. I can check the exact figure.
That is good enough.
Acting Chairman
The allocations are set out in the details of the Vote on page 23 of the report.
From which Department's Vote was that allocation made? Was it from the Department of Justice Equality and Law Reform?
Mr. Dalton
Yes.
Why did the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform not police this more thoroughly? How it did it allow this situation to arise?
Mr. Dalton
While it may sound like a very poor defence, it was the responsibility of the Department of Equality and Law Reform, for which I subsequently acquired responsibility.
There is no mention here of an assistant secretary, a principal officer or a HEO who had responsibility for how that money was spent.
Mr. Dalton
It dates back quite some time. The problems were identified in 1998 - at least they were first brought to my attention then. Once that happened the money was cut off. The problems dated back prior to that time. There was contact between the then secretary of the Department of Equality and Law Reform and the then Minister, Mervyn Taylor - I think he was aware of it - and the council, but the full extent of the inadequacies gradually only became apparent. From 1998 onwards, we had a handle on it and there should have been ongoing monitoring of the situation.
Why did those problems exist before that time? Why were they not picked up by someone within the Department Mr. Dalton inherited, although I accept that was a separate Department at the time?
Mr. Dalton
There was a great reluctance by the people concerned to listen to advice. Even when I became involved, there was resistance to the idea that a Department should have any control over this organisation. The idea that it was public money and that the public had the right to intervene had not dawned on them.
Is that idea still permitted within the national system?
Mr. Dalton
That is well dissipated at this stage.
Acting Chairman
I am extremely disappointed at the fallout. I thought it was an excellent initiative to set up such a council. Emotions are running high among all those participating in it. They have their own difficulties in terms of background. There was probably a lack of expertise at the outset. Substantial money was provided between 1997 and 1998 when it was doubled from £400,000 to almost £900,000. It is extremely disappointing that this happened and that so much money was spent on legal services rather than on the provision of services to the clients.
I commend the Department for reacting to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and for prompting the group to do something with regard to the full-time chief executive officer and the financial controls. The report makes dismal reading. More money will be spent in this area. As someone who has chaired a health board on four different occasions, I am au fait with the needs of the handicapped and those with disabilities.
It was extremely disappointing it got off to this start. It highlights the need for and the success of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the ability of a Department to respond. It fell between two Departments and Mr. Dalton has inherited the difficulty. It is obvious that one or two strong individuals were involved and that other people were not able to cope with that.
We wish the new body success and we hope it works out. Are you, Mr. Dalton, happy with what has been put in place? Is there a bright future for the new board?
Mr. Dalton
I hope so because, ultimately, this is about providing proper services for people who suffer a disability. That is a worthwhile objective. I agree with you, Chairman, that it is a pity it had such an unfortunate beginning. It is going from strength to strength since the steering committee took over and that is good.
Acting Chairman
Paragraph 20 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is a technical one.
Mr. Purcell
This was fully discussed with all the other parties. Mr. Alyward, who represented the Prison Service, was also there. I have nothing more to add. There was a full and frank discussion of it by the committee in February.
Acting Chairman
I suggest the committee notes Paragraphs 15 and 20 and the Vote and accounts in general. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank Mr. Dalton and his officials for their attendance. As I become more familiar with this task, I might be able to apply the muzzle a little more firmly in the future.
The agenda for the meeting of 25 May will be the Midland Health Board annual financial statements from 1994-8, the Mid-Western Health Board annual financial statements from 1994-8 and St. Luke's and St. Anne's Hospital annual financial statements from 1995-6. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The witnesses withdrew.
The committee adjourned at 1.45 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 25 May 2000.