We will begin with the Refugee Agency and the annual financial statements for 1994-98. I remind witnesses that they do not enjoy absolute privilege and that the same rules apply. The Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs is the Accounting Officer for the body and he is accompanied by Ms Noreen O'Sullivan, acting director of the Refugee Agency, and by Corinne Issertes Puech. I would like to welcome them to the meeting. I ask Mr. Purcell to introduce the accounts.
Annual Financial Statements 1994-1998: Refugee Agency.
Acting Chairman
Mr. Purcell
The Refugee Agency was established by the Government in 1991 to co-ordinate arrangements for the admission, reception and resettlement of programme refugees admitted into Ireland under specific Government decisions. There were three broad categories of programme refugees, as they came to be known. In 1979, there was the first group, the Vietnamese refugees or the so-called boat people; in 1992, there was the Bosnia programme refugees and, more recently, the Kosovan programme commenced last year.
The Committee might wish to note that on 18 April the Government approved the establishment of a new body to be called the interim board for the reception and integration agency on a non-statutory basis pending the enactment of legislation. As I understand, that new body will subsume the activities of the Refugee Agency.
In regard to the accounts for the five years, there was nothing in the audited reports for which I felt there was a need for public accountability.
Acting Chairman
Do members have any questions?
This is an item of enormous public concern and is the subject of divisive debate. It is important we put things in context starting with the numbers. How many programme refugees are there in the country?
Mr. Mac Kernan
Before answering the Deputy precisely on that point, I would like to make a distinction between asylum seekers and programme refugees, which is an important one to note. The essential ingredient in the case of programme refugees is that there is a Government decision to admit programme refugees. There is close co-operation with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. A further distinction needs to be made between the groups of programme refugees we have. First, the Vietnamese and Bosnians were admitted on a long-term basis and many of them have settled in Ireland and are, more or less, permanent residents. The Kosovans are also programme refugees but in circumstances where this was a response to an extreme situation where the refugees concerned had spilled over into Macedonia and so on. That is regarded as a transitional operation. When one talks about persons who arrive in Ireland seeking asylum outside that category, one is talking about people who arrive without a decision having been made in regard to them. That is an important distinction to maintain.
To come back to the numbers, there are 845 Vietnamese in Ireland, 1,222 Bosnians and 850 Kosovans, totally just under 3,000.
I welcome the distinction you made. The Vietnamese are the longest here. I would be curious to hear from the agents because, again, I would presume they and the Departments are in contact with each other given that there has been, as the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform well knows, criticism by the Opposition and what some people would call "liberal do-gooders" with regard to asylum policy. They argue that we should have some kind of open door procedure.
Acting Chairman
Let us stick to procedure. Questions should be addressed to the accounting officer and the Secretary General rather than the agencies. Although the matter is handled by the agency it is done so through the Department.
What lessons have we learned from the refugee programme in terms of integration and reception and what level of contact has there been via the agency or agencies responsible for integrating the Vietnamese intake of 1979? I understand it has been a success, although I am open to correction on that. What kind of inter-agency contact has there been between Departments with a view to learning from the experience of the programme refugees and translating that to the general policy area?
Mr. Mac Kernan
The most obvious point to make here is that the Refugee Agency is being subsumed, to use Mr. Purcell's comment - I would say incorporated - and, therefore, that expertise and their experience is being made available to the new body. However, the kind of contact that an agency of that nature would have had, and continues to have, would be with those Departments and agencies that have an obvious part to play in integrating refugees - the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Health and Children, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Department of the Environment and Local Government, the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs and so on. That is an ongoing contact and is part of the body of skills and experience which the Refugee Agency has and which I hope will be fruitfully brought into play as part of its involvement in the new body. That body of expertise is there. The Vietnamese you have mentioned began to come to Ireland many years ago and the vast majority of them and their children are now Irish citizens.
A low percentage of people return home.
Mr. Mac Kernan
Yes. They are free to return.
Presumably you have statistics on that. A very small number of Vietnamese or Bosnians are returning. As situations normalise in those places——
Mr. Mac Kernan
It should be recalled that the Vietnamese were brought to Ireland at the time for permanent resettlement.
That is correct. There is a very low rate of return to the countries, even when those countries have rebalanced themselves in terms of——
Mr. Mac Kernan
Yes. The longer people are away.
Of course. I am not implying that there should be an obligation on them to return, but, statistically, there is a low level of return to the countries from which these programme refugees originated.
Mr. Mac Kernan
Yes. The circumstances under which the Vietnamese refugees left were not conducive to their wanting to go back.
Exactly. It would imply that whatever the criticisms people might make about our treatment of people of different ethnic origin, the record from the programme refugees appears to be that people are settled, are happy and have integrated.
That would be in the Deputy's constituency.
There is very little desire on their part to return to their countries, even when matters have substantially improved at home.
Mr. Mac Kernan
I agree, but I think the important adjective in that is "programme". It was a matter of numbers, of quantity. There was a systematic approach - it was possible in the circumstances to put in place a systematic and comprehensive method of coping and integrating persons, like the Vietnamese, who were admitted in the first place, as I said, for permanent settlement.
That is correct.
Mr. Mac Kernan
There is a matter of scale here, and so on.
Scale, persistence and preparation.
Mr. Mac Kernan
They came at a pace that could be managed.
Yes, but nevertheless, it is a truism that there are very few instances of people turning back.
Mr. Mac Kernan
Yes. That is, of course, a matter of choice. They chose not to return.
Of course. Irish people choose to return from America to partake in our wonderful economy. That is their choice.
On the question of programme refugees versus asylum seekers, would it be the plan of the agency to accommodate programme refugees in flotels if an accommodation crisis arose relating to them? Is that within the scope, criteria or standards set down for programme refugees? You have made it clear that the distinction between the programme refugees and asylum seekers is such that with regard to the former, a higher standard was set and was able to be achieved in terms of a higher standard of care and treatment because the numbers are lower and because the infrastructure, support and care for these people as they arrive can be put in place and that, in view of this, certain objectives have been set. Given what you have said, would it be true that a programme refugee arriving to Ireland next year or the following year would not be accommodated in a flotel?
Mr. Mac Kernan
I cannot answer that exactly.
Is there a distinction to be drawn? There is an important principle here.
Mr. Mac Kernan
There is an extra element which is important to bring out here and that is that the programme refugees were brought here for permanent settlement and had a right to work from day one. As soon as they can look after themselves in terms of accommodation, off they go.
Given that there is an accommodation crisis in the country, and especially in the Dublin area, would a programme refugee be accommodated in short-term emergency accommodation, such as, for example, a flotel, as envisaged for asylum seekers? It is a theoretical question and it is perhaps a little unfair to ask you.
Mr. Mac Kernan
It is the case that when the Kosovar refugees came they came pretty rapidly. Let us say there was a less than perfect systematic reception. It was necessary to house the Kosovar refugees together in groups, and so on, and we had to seek whatever accommodation was available at the time.
Emergency accommodation.
Mr. Mac Kernan
For example, caravans in Kildare Barracks.
Exactly. The main concern is that there be a consistency in the kind of treatment available. It would be ridiculous to request the same level of resources in all cases, but there should be consistency underpinning the principles that are applied in terms of the types of accommodation available, whether it be for programme refugees or asylum seekers.
One final question to the Secretary General. On your last appearance before the committee you bravely and rightly stated that there was a perception internationally that Ireland was a soft touch when it came to refugees and that this was one of the reasons why there was such a large influx.
Acting Chairman
We cannot address this question without introducing the Justice, Equality and Law Reform Vote.
Should I direct the question to Mr. Mac Kernan?
Acting Chairman
We will be examining the Secretary General when we turn to the Justice, Equality and Law Reform Vote. Do members wish to do that?
Perhaps we could address a few short questions.
Acting Chairman
That is what I hope to do, but I wanted the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform officials to be au fait with what has been happening. That is why I asked them to be here. If we wish to address questions to them, technically, I must open the Vote.
Can we do that?
Acting Chairman
We can if it is what the members wish. Is that agreed? Agreed.