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COMMITTEE of PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 12 Oct 2000

Vol. 2 No. 25

1999 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts.

Vote 6 - Department of Finance (Subhead S).

Vote 3 - Department of the Taoiseach.

Mr. T. Considine (Secretary-General, Department of Finance) and Mr. D. McCarthy (Secretary General to the Government) called and examined.

Acting Chairman

Witnesses' and Members' attention is drawn to the fact that from 2 August 1998, section 10 of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, grants certain rights to persons who are identified in the course of the committee's proceedings. I also remind members, notwithstanding this provision in legislation, of the long standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I ask Mr. Tom Considine, Secretary-General of the Department's public service and management division to introduce his officials.

Mr. Considine

I am accompanied by Mr. Eric Embleton, Assistant Secretary, Department of Finance, Ms. Carmel Keane and Ms Maggie Doolan.

Acting Chairman

I ask Mr. Dermot McCarthy, Secretary-General to the Government, to introduce his officials.

Mr. McCarthy

I am accompanied by Ms Mary Doyle, Assistant Secretary in the Department of the Taoiseach.

Acting Chairman

I will not call the Comptroller and Auditor General as there is no note on this. I call on Mr. Considine to make an opening statement.

Mr. Considine

The subject of my statement is the strategic management initiative and its major output, "Delivering Better Government", which is a comprehensive programme of change for the Civil Service. I will deal with the key elements of that and the developments which gave rise to Partnership 2000 and the PPF agreements in supporting it, as well as the role of changed management fund.

The question is why the SMI got under way and a number of factors can be summarised under the headings internal, external and international. First, one had a growing awareness of the rising cost of providing public services and changing and higher expectations of service from the public in relation to the level of service they should have. There was also the growing complexity of Government itself.

On the other side there was a growing awareness on the part of Civil Service management that there was a need for modernisation and change. There was the extension of the Comptroller and Auditor General's remit to cover value for money which was a significant development. There was also the greater use of information technology in the work of the Civil Service.

Internationally, globalisation was having an increasing impact on how governments functioned and there was an awareness of change taking place in other countries, particularly New Zealand and Australia. We were members of the EU and were aware that change was being promoted by the OECD and from elsewhere. All of this gave rise to debate within the Civil Service. My colleague Eric Embleton was centrally involved during 1992-4. This led to the SMI being launched formally in 1994.

What is the definition of strategic management? We define it as the process by which an organisation maintains a focus on the medium to long-term, plans accordingly and implements its plans. It sounds simple but it is a very structured way of doing business. The SMI is concerned with modernising the Civil Service which is the important objective. In so doing it addressed three key issues - how the Civil Service can make a better contribution to national development, how it can provide and excellent quality of service to the public and, in doing so, make the most effective use of the resources which the Government makes available to it. It is also concerned with improving the linkages between Departments and agencies and was designed to be extended to the wider public service.

To make it happen a co-ordinating group of Secretaries General was established under the chairmanship of the Department of the Taoiseach. The role of this group was very important. It was to facilitate the process of reform, to evaluate strategy statements produced by individual Departments and offices, and we will come back to those later, and to recommend changes to enable a more efficient and effective management of the Civil Service by removing barriers to better management. Its report to Government was entitled Delivering Better Government and was a comprehensive programme of change for the public service.

Statements of strategy are for each individual Department and office to set out what its objectives are in a clear manner, to set out how it is going to achieve these objectives and how the available resources it is voted or allocated by Government would be used to this end. In other words, it is a results oriented approach.

The document Delivering Better Government was launched in May 1996 and one could summarise its two main objectives as better government through providing quality service and delivering better government through better management. How was this made to happen? Again a group of Secretaries General has responsibility for implementation. As part of the work programme, individual working groups were established to tease out key areas where change was needed. New legislation was enacted to which I will return. The system also relied on consultation and participation by unions and staff. An important part of the supporting structure was an SMI team in the Department of the Taoiseach whose function it was to monitor and support the process and an all-party committee of the Oireachtas on the SMI.

I will now turn to the legislative programme. The Freedom of Information Act was a key to opening the operations of Government to the wider public. The Public Service Management Act created a new framework within which the public service is managed. I will return to this issue. Other legislation was important in the same vein, including the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunity of Witnesses) Act, 1997, and the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act, 1993. Earlier legislation such as the Ombudsman Act, the Data Protection Act and the Ethics in Public Office Act were also important.

The Public Service Management Act, 1997, came out of Delivering Better Government and provides a statutory basis for a new management structure in the Civil Service. However, this new structure safeguards carefully the unique authority of Ministers as regards policy, the allocation of resources and their responsibility to Dáil Éireann. Within that framework the Act assigns formal statutory responsibility to the Secretary General for managing the Department, implementing and monitoring Government policies, preparing and providing progress reports to the Minister on the implementation of strategy statements, we have already touched on this issue, assigning specific responsibilities to officers of appropriate rank and ensuring effective management of issues requiring a cross-departmental response.

The key elements of Delivering Better Government with an external focus were quality services, better government through quality services, regulatory reform, openness and transparency and better management of cross-cutting issues where significant progress has been made. We will return to the others as I proceed. The key elements of Delivering Better Government with an internal focus were devolving authority and accountability, better HR management, better financial management and more effective use of information technology.

The quality services initiatives commenced in 1997 and involved a set of principles which were converted into action plans by each Department and office. These plans were published. Since then the principles have been reviewed and expanded to reflect the provisions of the equality Act and particularly to recognise staff as internal customers. These will be reflected in revised action plans which will be published in the new year.

The basic drive behind regulatory reform is to reduce red tape and to provide greater accessibility to statutes and so on. There is a quality check list where Departments and offices are required, under amended Cabinet procedures, to use a quality regulation check list for each new legislative proposal. As regards accessibility, statutes from 1922 to 1998 are now available electronically. The Freedom of Information Act came into operation in the Civil Service on 21 April 1998 and has been extended to a number of other areas of the public service. Further extensions are also planned.

Human resources management also needed to be modernised and developed. There have been management initiatives in relation to recruitment, promotion and tenure. Regarding equality, the Civil Service as an employer is committed to a policy of equal opportunity, which includes ensuring that people with disabilities who are capable of effective performance in the jobs to which they aspire are not disadvantaged by reason of their disability. Across the Civil Service there is a target of 3% for such employment.

In June this year the Government issued a new gender equality policy which requires that one third of all assistant principal posts be filled by females within five years. This is to be integrated into the strategy statements of Departments and offices with appropriate goals being set.

In relation to performance management, it was considered particularly important that the existing framework of strategy statements and business plans should be completed by putting in place a performance management and development system. This would bring the business plans down to the level of the individual. Each individual would have objectives. The competencies required to do their job would be identified and, very importantly, any training needed to ensure the individual had these competencies would be provided. It was also considered necessary to refocus the HR functions by delegating more to individual departments and offices and in turn delegating down to the level of the line manager who deals with particular issues.

Financial management was another major area which needed attention and multi-annual budgeting has been introduced. Expenditure reviews are well on the way to a second round. Regarding administrative budgets, Departments have three-year expenditure programmes which allow them much greater flexibility than before to look after their in-house costs. A new financial model is being developed to support this system. This new system is referred to as the generic model because it identifies common features for a financial management system across the Civil Service. It will provide for the standard functions of a financial management system, management and financial accounting, cost allocations and so on, together with developing the use of other financial and non-financial performance indicators. Again, the focus is on results. The new model will facilitate the full costing of programmes and will aim to provide the information needed to measure and evaluate whether the objectives of Departments have been achieved. It will relate expenditure to the costs of delivering a service and to the output of that service. The proposed timetable for the project is identification of requirements to be completed by Spring 2001, the system to be designed by Autumn 2003 and fully implemented by 2005. It is a long period, but it is a very important development in the Civil Service and will underpin many of the changes made to date.

Clearly, information technology is also very important in relation to how the Civil Service is managed and how services are provided to customers. Part of the Action Plan for the Information Society, adopted by Government in July 1999, was to make effective use of IT, to support business activities and objectives, facilitate redesign of business processes and to develop electronic services. The Department of the Taoiseach has a central policy and co-ordinating role. The Departments of Finance, Social, Community and Family Affairs, Public Enterprise and Education and Science also play a key role.

IT is a major agent for change, both in the public and private sectors. In relation to Government it will facilitate interactive service delivery to customers, more integrated services which are designed around customers' needs rather than the organisation of Departments and offices and should result in people being able to get a package of services at a point of contact, rather than having to go between one Department and another.

In relation to e-procurement, the Government would do its own purchasing using technology which would have the added advantage of encouraging business, particularly small businesses, to develop its IT skills.

Partnership 2000 recognised and supported this change agenda. It did so by putting in place a partnership arrangement which enabled targets to be set for delivery of services, and 2% of the pay increase was dependent on those targets being met. Payment was only made when these were validated by the partnership committee.

The Programme for Prosperity and Fairness builds on Partnership 2000. It acknowledges the need for continuous modernisation. It takes as given the fact that the SMI building better government platform exists and acknowledges that the strategic management framework is the way business is done, involving strategy statements, business and service plans, moving performance down to the level of the individual with individual targets and competencies being identified and training provided as required, and quality service delivery to the customer.

The next phase in the programme is to set sectoral specific objectives for the Civil Service, the education sector, the health sector and the local government sector. Performance indicators would be sector specific. The organisation would tailor them to meet their own circumstances and there would be a quality assurance element at both the stage at which the targets are set and to ensure they were delivered upon. On delivery the third phase of the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, which is 4%, would be paid in October 2002. The payment depends on agreed indicators being in place by April 2001 and being satisfied the targets are achieved by 2002.

In order to demonstrate the intention to support the SMI Delivering Better Government programme, the change management fund was established in 1999 to co-finance implementation of the strategic change agenda. It has a budget of £5 million per annum and is expected to be required for about five years. In 1999 the fund approved spending of £2.4 million for non-IT projects, but only £1.3 million was paid out within the year as demands for payment were somewhat slower than expected. In 1999 the fund also made payments of £1.7 million for IT related projects, bringing the total spend in 1999 to just over £3 million. To date in 2000 the total approved for payment from the fund is £3.5 million. Draw downs are slow this year, totalling only £0.28 million to date. We expect this to pick up as the year progresses. Inevitably, there are gaps between projects being approved and expenditure being incurred.

Acting Chairman

Thank you for that wide ranging opening statement covering an eight year period. Does Mr. McCarthy wish to add anything?

Mr. McCarthy

I will make one brief comment on the division of labour between our Department and the Department of Finance. The Department of the Taoiseach chairs the implementation group and houses the SMI team but the responsibility for the implementation of Government policy which derives from the process on an ongoing basis rests with the Department of Finance. The reason for this division of labour was to facilitate three objectives - to signal a degree of involvement and support at a political as well as administrative level which would extend right across Government; to provide an opportunity for management across the public service to be involved in developing, leading and implementing the process and to remove the process to some extent from the normal day to day tensions which arise, not only in regard to staff interests but also between Departments, in the implementation of financial, human resource and other policies. That was the rationale behind the division of labour and our judgment is that, to date, it has worked reasonably well and has complemented the roles of the two Departments involved.

Acting Chairman

While appreciating that there is an ongoing cost analysis within the Departments - we will probably obtain some information on that - what evidence is there to suggest that the SMI, which has been fully in operation since 1994, is helping to deliver a more efficient and effective standard of government? It may be too simplistic a question but it is one which members of the public may ask.

Mr. Considine

That is what the SMI is all about. If we were not delivering a better standard of government, the entire process would be a failure. We must look at how the service is delivered to the public and how it is perceived. We must also examine how we use the available resources. It is very difficult to retrace our steps and say that if we had not done this, it would have been more expensive. When one goes through the list of things we have done to date - much remains to be done, particularly on the information technology front - such as strategy statements, business plans etc., Departments now have a far more structured system in which to relate to their Ministers and work out what they should be doing. Departments report annually to the Minister in regard to their performance vis-à-vis the strategy statement. The strategy statement, in turn, is broken down into business plans for units within the organisations and the next step will be to take matters down to the level of the individual.

It is not really possible to quantify the SMI's effects but it appears that Departments are adopting a far more professional and organised approach to the conduct of business. From a public perception point of view, the process, together with the Freedom of Information Act, is far more accountable. Subject to the restrictions of the legislation, people can find out how their cases are being dealt with. Follow-up procedures are in place right up to the information commissioner if people are dissatisfied with the level of progress. Somebody outside the system can observe what is being done and make an independent judgment as to whether it stands up to scrutiny.

I am satisfied that there has been a great deal of improvement but much remains to be done. I am hopeful that when we complete the three big programmes in which we are engaged in regard to the performance management system, there will be even greater accountability throughout the system, particularly in regard to individuals. When the programme of work on e-Government is completed, service provision will occur on the basis of people's needs rather than departmental organisation. When the generic accountancy system is put in place, it will support all the other changes and assist us in producing performance indicators which will allow us to judge whether we are actually delivering what we set out to deliver.

Acting Chairman

Mr. McCarthy made reference to what would be referred to, in political terms, as "internal dynamics". There is always a fear that the Department of Finance runs everything. Has the process helped to iron out any gaps which may have existed?

Mr. McCarthy

I believe that is the case. The process has made a profound difference to the culture within the public service. We have, rightly, been criticised in the past for being more interested in administration than management. The impact of our activity might have been less of a concern or focus in people's minds than the administration of programmes on a routine, unchanged or unreflective basis. That has changed significantly and the task of public service management is now being seen as an integral part of management throughout the public service, not merely in the Department of Finance. From that point of view, the process is a shared burden.

The jury is probably still out in regard to the full extent of the impact on the final consumer of public services. We can be reasonably confident, however, that this reform has gone deeper and is more durable than earlier efforts at reform. Looking at our international colleagues from our experience through the OECD and other networks, one can judge that this reform is quite robust in its structures, legislative underpinning and the behavioural and cultural changes it has fostered. It is early days to be definitive about the final impact on customers and citizens but there are already tangible benefits to which one can point. For example, the quality customer service plans which each Department and agency has adopted and published, have brought about improvements in practical, operational details such as office accessibility, availability and quality of information, complaints procedures, etc. The fact that these are regularly reviewed has a beneficial impact. We are also awaiting the restatement of some legislation which would make the law of the land more accessible to ordinary citizens, not just members of the legal profession.

This is another example of the tangible benefits that can flow from this. Overall the process has produced worthwhile change in the way the system is managed. There are indications it is already producing tangible benefits and in future we can be confident that the transparency of what is achieved and accountability over what is done will be enhanced.

Are we satisfied as to the efficacy of the initiative to date? Is it progressing satisfactorily in accordance with expectations? My initial reaction to the SMI was that it was the efficient strategic delivery of better Government and better services in a cost-effective and rapid fashion. That was the objective but I wonder if the letter and spirit of this target is being achieved.

Mr. McCarthy

To comment on at least one aspect of Deputy Durkan's question in relation to the pace of development, some issues have taken longer to bring to fruition than we would have wished. Perhaps the time involved in areas such as the performance management and development system, where there were extensive consultations with staff interests in designing a system which will radically change the way in which people's careers are managed and developed throughout the public service, was longer than we might have expected. This has brought about a degree of commitment and involvement by staff interests which is a good omen for the success of the process.

When one considers the scale of what is required in the reform of public financial procedures, as Tom Considine outlined earlier, one will see that it is taking a significant amount of time. Some radical changes took place quickly. For example, the Public Service Management Act provided an entirely new legislative basis for the Civil Service. There had been criticism of outmoded legal frameworks for public administration for some time, yet that Act was enacted relatively quickly. The Freedom of Information Act was also enacted relatively quickly. Some aspects of the process moved quickly in laying the foundation blocks. Other aspects are taking a little longer but that time is being well spent embedding them and maximising commitment from the public service to make them work.

Another description of the SMI is "making the system work". I would like to home in on this aspect for a moment. Are the initiatives to date making the system work? In other words, is the general public in a position to evaluate whether delivery of the services to which it is entitled and the response from the various Departments with which people have corresponded, etc., have improved tremendously, a little or not at all?

Mr. McCarthy

People are in a much better position to be able to make that judgment than was the case previously. They can, for example, consult a Department's statement of strategy which sets out its business and what it is intending to achieve. They can see in the quality customer service plan what the standard of service is, including access to information, time taken to respond to correspondence or telephone calls and the extent to which these standards are being met. If they have a complaint, they can determine whether it is being processed in accordance with the complaints procedures adopted by Departments.

There is a degree of transparency from that point of view. One can see from the annual report of each Department what level of performance is being achieved overall, not just in relation to one's own case. There is much greater transparency about what is being offered to the public and what standard is being delivered. That standard may not always be met and that in itself should be a spur to improve performance. However, there is a radical difference from what applied previously throughout the public service. There were always Departments and agencies which were ahead of the posse in their performance but this is a general standard which is now applicable throughout the system.

Mr. Considine

One indicator of the process is the Freedom of Information Act which is obviously having an impact. Up to the end of March 2000, there were 19,000 requests for information. People are also using the opportunity to obtain a second opinion because approximately 5% of requests go to the Information Commissioner.

That is an example of bureaucracy uncurling. I note the example of the Freedom of Information Act, but that is in response to a culture which had developed and which this jurisdiction inherited from another jurisdiction, whereby the least information given is the best possible position. I believe a lot of information sought under the Freedom of Information Act could and should be readily available. I do not mean a private citizen should be able to inquire from a Department as to information pertaining to someone else's business, but one should be able to obtain information relating to one's own business without a great degree of difficulty.

This aspect needs to be considered carefully because it is a serious problem for an individual to gain access to information which Departments, local authorities or whatever may have on them. It is not the prerogative of Government, semi-State or State bodies to withhold that information. What degree of training currently takes place in the context of the initiative, including re-evaluation and so on? I note the points already made in the presentation.

Mr. Considine

On the Freedom of Information Act, Dermot McCarthy mentioned a change in culture, which is very important. I take the Deputy's point that perhaps this has not yet gone as far as it should. However, there have been big changes. People are now much more inclined to publish documents and reports, put them on the web and make them available. It would be very easy to under-estimate the extent to which people are being given material about themselves. They take it for granted, particularly people working within organisations and so on. There have been many changes.

The Freedom of Information Act was very well supported in relation to training. There was a huge investment in training and there is a central unit in the Department of Finance which continues to support this. My colleague, Eric Embleton, has more first-hand information on the efforts made to make sure the Freedom of Information Act worked from the beginning and that it was properly supported by training.

Mr. Embleton

Training staff to use and fully understand the Freedom of Information Act involved training many hundreds of civil servants. There was further training beyond that for deciding officers and so on. A great deal of training took place before the Act was enacted in April, 1998. Subsequently, there was a great deal of training as we learned from our experience of the problems that arose under the Act. In addition, there is an FOI policy unit in the Department of Finance which continues to provide a great deal of advice on issues arising in relation to the application of the Act.

My colleague, Carmel Keane who heads up our training unit, has just passed me the figures. We have trained 8,000 civil servants on the Freedom of Information Act since 1997 and training is ongoing. We have given and continue to give support to the wider public service through the Institute of Public Administration, for example, in training the public service generally for the application of the Act, which was applied in the wider public service later than in the Civil Service.

I accept that great strides have been made in relation to the Freedom of Information Act but what about the actual delivery of services? A member of the public will ask how fast and how efficient is the reponse to his individual situation. For example, the need for a juvenile detention centre has been an issue for the last 20 years. Why can the various Departments not get together, surmount the various dermarcation problems, iron out the difficulties, recognise that judges, the gardaí and the public have been calling for such a centre and deliver the service? The purpose of the strategic management initiative is to deliver a service.

Acting Chairman

That might involve a policy decision.

It would not involve a policy decision. It is the delivery of a service. The need has been agreed by various Administrations.

Mr. McCarthy

I would not like to comment on the specific example given by Deputy Durkan. However, the point he is making is an extremely important one. Many of our most important public service issues are cross-cutting issues which require better co-ordination across Departments because the problems and the policy responses cannot be contained within the sometimes artifical boundaries of individual Departments and agencies. This is not something we have been good at, although we are not unique in this. Delivery of what in another jurisdiction is called joined up government is a theme throughout the developed world. The SMI process has been seeking to support this and to make it easier. The Public Service Management Act provides for groups of officials to be mandated to work out of different Departments as one team and with one line of accountability to ministerial level.

We have had examples of better co-ordination in areas such as the national drugs strategy, with which Deputy Durkan will be familiar, and in other areas such as the support for the implementation of the national development plan. There is a significant effort, which is nearing completion, to produce a national children's strategy which would also have a bearing on the example given by the Deputy. SMI is alive to this problem. There is much to be done. These are the most difficult issues because they challenge the political and administrative structures within which we operate. We need to be more flexible than we have been.

The cross-cutting approach is becoming easier in the area of information management and information sharing. We should soon be in a position to remove the obligation on people, when applying for services, to supply the same information to differerent agencies in different formats and to have a more streamlined approach to the supply and use of information. In that area we are seeing progress.

Given the speed with which modern technology has made it possible for responses to be given and for information to be transmitted from one area to another, is an ongoing analysis taking place of the legislative requirements to keep pace with modern development? The public often tells us there is no legislation to deal with X, Y or Z. However, in many cases, when one looks for the necessary legislation one finds it is there. The two points to my question are the need to ensure the delivery of services as envisaged under existing legislation and the need to identify legislation needed to meet modern requirements.

Mr. McCarthy

We had significant legislation in the recent Electronic Commerce Act which provides a legislative framework for electronic services, both public and private. In the Information Society Commission, which advises Government on policy requirements, we have a particular legal advisory group which charts this issue very carefully and within the implementation team for the information society in the Department of the Taoiseach we have been following it closely. We are very alive to the legal constraints on the further development of electronic services and well equipped for them.

Access to better information about the state of the law generally and how it applies to public services in particular is something which will be helped by the restatement Bill which will make it easier to pull together legislation in various Acts and statutory instruments. We have established a new statute law consolidation and revision unit in the Attorney General's office which will support this process on an ongoing basis and make it easier for people to get access to the law, which is a basic right.

Mr. Considine

Much legislation is no longer required and an excess of legislation can be a burden on industry, users and so on. The ongoing regulatory reform which is designed to reduce red tape should identify legislation which is not cost effective and should not continue. The annual Finance Acts give an opportunity to take measures which are urgently needed. This year, for example, the Revenue on-line service was facilitated. Dermot has presented the bigger picture but particular matters arise which must be dealt with quickly. Both sides are reasonably well accommodated at the moment.

Acting Chairman

Mr. Considine mentioned training and the fact that each local authority and health board now has a designated official. Do these officials receive a standard training in freedom of information legislation?

Ms Keane

We have been co-operating very closely with the Institute of Public Administration in assisting it to put programmes in place which are developed from models we have been using. We would be glad to support that. However, we would have a problem on the resources side in putting it out to the wider public service but our templates on training are available.

Acting Chairman

There should be a standard that would be applied throughout the country rather than leaving it to a board. The committee made recommendations as a result of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on means testing. Was that what Mr. McCarthy was referring to when he said standard documentation would be available?

Mr. McCarthy

Indeed, and not just for means testing but other forms of information that people sometimes have to supply to get a passport, driving licence and so on. The framework would include means testing reform that the committee discussed.

Acting Chairman

It is a great source of aggravation among the public.

I was an early sceptic about SMI and I remain to be convinced of its merits. Two of the key facts you rely on to justify it are the notion of a change in culture - it is interesting that both Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Considine have used this phrase and are clinging to it - and the publication of these strategy documents so that people know what Departments are doing. The strategy documents are a waste of money. The objectives are rather bland and expensively produced. This committee has complained about that in other areas, particularly the partnership groups who seem to have this in common with the upper echelons of the public service. They produce expensively costed strategy statements or annual reports. It would not persuade me of the benefits of SMI.

You cannot measure a change of culture. By its nature it is intangible and cannot be defined. The absence of performance management or targets worries me. It started in 1994 and it was still rolling in 1996. I would be interested to hear if both gentlemen regard it as a rolling programme or one which at some time will come to an end and we will have a better service. Deputy Durkan and the Chairman put their finger on in earlier. I appreciate Mr. McCarthy's frankness earlier when he said the jury is still out as regards the impact on the customer. We are still receiving representations and I do not see any measurement of whether complaints have reduced or increased. My impression is that complaints by the public on the way it interacts with the Civil Service and public services is rising. Does Mr. McCarthy believe it is now time to have a customer advocate in every office of State?

Perhaps local authorities are under-resourced but citizens who walk in off the street into State offices are often brushed aside and treated in a very unkind manner. This is very much the case in the health sector. The public who walk in off the street and expect a service in a hospital are brushed aside and, in some cases, are treated no better than a piece of meat to be moved around. They are told to wait six or eight hours before they get the treatment they feel they deserve. When will the change of culture take place?

One of the key objectives of the scheme was to address the rising costs of supplying public services. What is Mr. Considine's view on this? Perhaps he has comparative data. What percentage of GNP do we spend on supplying public services in 2000 and how does that compare with the start date of the SMI in 1994?

Another key objective was more efficient services and presumably that impacts on delivery. We have introduced FOI and have 19,000 requests. I would like to see a breakdown of those requests. There is confusion and you are clinging to the notion that FOI represents restitution of citizens' rights. It does not. It is merely an information gathering process. I am interested in how complaints procedures have evolved. The only measure I can think of to evaluate whether the Civil Service is working efficiently is if the number of complaints has reduced. The Office of the Ombudsman has been in existence since 1994 and I would be interested to hear from him whether the level of complaints has decreased in the target years 1994 to 2000 when SMI is up and running and effecting the change of culture we are talking about.

I would like to hear more about benchmarks and performance indicators, how they are constructed and when they will be delivered. Some say you should start with a statement of rights for the customer, deliver the performance indicators and then try to achieve the change in culture. I do not know if the ISO 9000 or the ISO process has arrived in the Civil Service but from working in the private sector, the mere fact of an organisation trying to achieve a benchmark target actually improves the service. I wonder why it has not been done in this case. It is extraordinarily effective in business in terms of improving performance, quality and efficiency. Why are we waiting for the performance indicators? I accept the jury is still out but that is what worries me. Why is it still out regarding the effect on consumers? What qualitative research has been done to find out what the public thinks of the SMI process and whether the services are being developed appropriately?

I am sorry to ask so many questions. I know some of them may not be answered today and I look forward to hearing from you in writing. Why does it sometimes take a Minister or Department up to three months to answer a Deputy's letter? I am not looking for better performance or being selfish. If it takes some Departments three months to answer a letter from a Deputy, what hope has the public? I am not blaming Ministers per se as individuals or the Departments but where does the letter go? Is it sent around the building? Why cannot we guarantee delivery as a public administration? Why not set as a target that a letter will be answered within a certain length of time? If such matters were addressed people would be less cynical.

Acting Chairman

As Deputy Lenihan addressed his questions to both Secretarys-General I will call Mr. McCarthy first. I appreciate there were many questions asked and I am sure the Deputy will remind you of those that were not answered.

I am interested in benchmarks, quality assurance and ISO 9000.

Mr. McCarthy

The Deputy covered a lot of territory. It can be difficult to demonstrate a change of culture to a third party but there is no difficulty in identifying it if you are a participant on either side. There has been a change of the type we set out to achieve, not least by removing what were seen as barriers to public service change and reform in the past, for example, the legislative framework and in particular the question of Ministers as corporation sole. That was seen as a fundamental barrier to making progress in both transparency and accountability. That was removed in one of the early phases of the process. The strategy of taking one step at a time was well founded.

Indicators of performance are crucial and necessary both generally and at the level of the individual organisation. As Mr. Considine outlined, we are moving to a point where these will be comprehensively required to be in place, independently verified and operating in order for the third phase of payment under the PPF to be implemented, but they are not without their difficulties.

The two indicators mentioned by the Deputy that might be relevant to an overall assessment of the impact of the SMI are problematic. Whether the share of GNP on public services has gone up or down might tell us something about the value for money being achieved. If that is our overall concern, policy decisions might not only produce a higher rate of spend as a proportion of GNP, but a better quality of spend. Equally, a reduction in GNP might be associated with a diminution in the quality of service. One, therefore, has to choose the indicators carefully.

Likewise, the number of complaints received is also a problematic indicator because international literature shows that one can have an increase in the number of complaints received when people have more confidence that they will be attended to. An improvement in the quality of customer service, therefore, could actually produce an increase in the number of complaints. That is virtually the universal experience with police complaints services, for example, and I suspect that it applies more generally. We are, therefore, trying to find indicators which would be a good basis of the real experience of customers using a variety of different factors which together rather than in isolation would throw light on the quality of the experience of the use of public services. That is why in the quality customer service principles each Department and agency is required to have a strategy, for example, for dealing with complaints, measuring and monitoring the response to them, looking at response times and setting standards by which responses should be issued to the public or Deputies making representations. I am sure those standards will not always be met, but having better information about the proportion which are not met should sharpen management performance.

As one of the chief complainants - I gather this stuff every day - I am not aware that there is a minimum standard. Nobody ever told me.

Mr. McCarthy

There is a standard, although not necessarily a uniform one. Each Department and agency is required to have its own explicit standard for the handling of correspondence and materials. We can supply the committee with information——

Is there an average standard across all Departments?

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should address any questions through the Chair. I will not allow crossfire. I would prefer to hear Mr. Considine and Mr. McCarthy. We can return to any points noted.

Mr. McCarthy

In relation to ISO 9000, which can be a very useful spur to practice, one agency, the Office of Public Works, has achieved certification for its project management services. It is somewhat easier in relation to those activities which are concrete in nature when in a sense one can measure a process over time. It is a little more difficult, however, in areas such as policy advice where objective measured benchmarks are a little more difficult, but we are participating in the OECD programme of public service and management reform. In so far as there is a development which might apply those forms of accreditation to the public service, we would be keen to take them on board.

Mr. Considine

I will try to cover some of the areas which have not been covered so far. The Deputy asked if this is a rolling programme and when it will come to an end. Matters are evolving constantly. In the area of e-government, technology in particular, I hope it will not come to an end, that our performance will continue to improve as technology develops and that we will use it to the maximum extent.

It will take some time to put the performance management system in place. The same applies to the new financial management system. These are huge changes which will have to be introduced across all Departments. It will take some time to put the e-government programme in place, but that is not to say that no progress is being made. At a very early stage tangible progress will be made in terms of forms being available through information technology sources and so on.

On the cost of services, as Mr. McCarthy said, the percentage of GNP will not enable one to get a handle on the matter. Let me give examples of the areas from where there is extra demand. Services for asylum seekers were not required previously. They now have to be provided. It is a new area of service. There is also a different approach to prison management requiring additional staff. There are also demands for additional staff for Revenue and the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. In many of these areas one either provides new services or there is a public decision that the quality of existing services has to be raised. It is a complicated question to answer, but that is not to say that indicators of performance cannot be developed, they can. This can be tackled by way of the generic model and performance management.

The Deputy indicated the number of complaints made to him and others. The Freedom of Information Act provides a formal channel through which ordinary members of the public can seek information. There are statutory deadlines which have to be met. I am sure there have been cases where these have been missed, but generally great attention is paid to meeting them. That is a very important development. It is my experience that Departments monitor the answering of correspondence. I hope there will not be too many difficult cases, but there is a strong awareness of the need to meet the targets set for Department and Offices since 1997. Some extra publicity may be required.

Mr. McCarthy

There are two matters I should have mentioned. We have had evaluations made of the quality customer service experience. We can also make some of that material available to the committee. The implementation group has been discussing a brief for a full blown evaluation of the impact of the SMI process to date. We are at a point where a number of the foundation blocks are in place. A number of the points raised by Deputy Lenihan would be comprehended by this, including teasing out the value or relevance of particular types of indicator at the aggregate level.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Lenihan has raised an interesting point. It would be ironic at a time when statutory requirements to respond to the public on various issues are being enforced if elected members were not receiving responses. This issue should be revisited, although not necessarily by this committee.

I am reassured that there is a minimum response time to a query or complaint in each Department. However, as Mr. Considine rightly suggests, perhaps that should be given more publicity. That is the first time I have heard of it. I would like to receive some kind of general indicator, Department by Department, public office by public office or otherwise, as to what is the minimum response time. I hope it is a minimum response time that is guaranteed and measured as having been delivered or not delivered over a period. There is no point in having a commitment if it is not delivered upon.

I am intrigued to think that the ISO 9000 is not a suitable vehicle for evaluating customer organisational efficiency or pleasantness or whatever we want in the public sector. I note Mr. McCarthy's point about Office of Public Works being concrete, that it is building, that it is out there designing our new offices which it did very well. However, all organisations, not necessarily Departments but offices within Departments, should be able to aspire to an ISO 9000 award. Why else are offices in the private sector as opposed to the whole organisation going for an ISO? For example, the whole of a multinational organisation like Dell does not go for an ISO 9000. Its office or one part of its office in Limerick or Galway might decide to go for it and get it and improve its service. That is what I am interested in, seeing the actual service delivery points of the public service go for quality and benchmark awards like that. That is my point on that.

Mr. McCarthy

That is a very reasonable point. We will see whether we can advance it on foot of today's discussion. The point I was making was simply that the policy advice area is a difficult one.

There is no way of evaluating, and Mr. Considine made that point very well in relation to the percentage of GNP I have given.

Mr. Embleton

We are conscious of the point that Deputy Lenihan has raised. He is right. When we started down the quality customer service route we did not attempt to install a Q mark, as it were. The reason for that, it will be appreciated, is that even applying for ISO 9000 requires quite a deal of preparation and hard work to get internal systems right in order to respond effectively to customers at the service delivery end. I should add that the quality customer service working group - Mr. Considine referred to it in his presentation - is now looking at this issue of a quality customer service mark with a view to developing some sort of standard that the Department should aspire to and be assessed on. In that regard the Public Management Research Committee, which looks at issues of strategic management and public management, is also looking at that issue and feeding in to the quality customer service group. It is hoped that we will eventually arrive at some system that will allow us to develop a quality service mark that is appropriate to public service, be it in relation to entire Departments or sections within Departments.

At a wider level, the issue that has been raised - Dermot McCarthy referred to this - is difficult in the context of public administration. It is something that Governments elsewhere have also been grappling with. There is now an EU initiative on building what has been referred to as a common assessment framework which is a means of benchmarking Government Departments or parts of Government Departments both within national boundaries and across national boundaries. This was launched in May of this year at a conference in Lisbon on benchmarking and quality service in public administration.

Thank you for the frankness. I accept what Mr. McCarthy is saying, that the culture has changed. The Sir Humphrey approach is gone. I hope we are not in Sir Robert Armstrong territory but it looks as if the culture has changed. Certainly the old culture of secrecy in the public sector seems to have disappeared. In fairness to Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Considine, that change of culture, and not just putting the phone down and forgetting about the query, is attributable to SMI. I accept that has changed to a large degree, perhaps at the higher to middle end rather than at the middle to lower end. That is just an evaluative point.

Is there any way of assessing the rising cost of services? The key area that we identified earlier, the rising cost of supply in public services, is a huge issue and there are normative issues in relation to policy changes and shifting parameters of one kind or another. Is there not some way of picking one benchmark figure, for example, the administrative overhead, or of indicating the cost of delivering public services as a percentage of what is dedicated to administrative overheads, which is generally what people analyse in relation to charities when they look at what is being spent on the delivery of the service as opposed to what is spent on administration? Is there any figure like that, such as the administrative cost or overhead of the State in supplying services which provide continuity and a benchmark whereby people can say that in 1994 there were many administrators and much less delivered to the customer and that now, in 2000 there has been shrinkage of the administration and more delivered to the customer?

Mr. McCarthy

It is certainly possible to look at indicators of administrative overhead in particular areas. For example, one could look, as is routinely done, at the administrative costs of the social welfare system relative to the numbers dealt with. Similarly, in relation to Revenue, one can look at caseloads in a very straightforward way. It is more difficult when one has to classify staff. For example, in the health services, are ward clerks to be classified as administration or are they part of the service delivery? When one gets into such definitional questions, it becomes more difficult to be definitive. As regards numbers in the public service, data are available and one can make general deductions about trends. What may be more significant for the future is whether our systems are capable of making the best possible use of information technology which would certainly liberate a significant resource that is currently tied up in administration. We feel that the broad strategy that we are adopting in relation to e-Government, in the context of SMI overall, will enable us to do that in a way which is much more significant than any previous efficiency gains.

E-Government is excellent in the way it is being managed and rolled out in the Civil Service. I congratulate you for that. It is important that we should have some targets against which to measure it.

Acting Chairman

Mr. Considine would be anxious to address that as well.

Mr. Considine

In regard to what Dermot has said, in areas like Revenue and Social Welfare, but particularly Revenue, it is easier to get such comparisons. We did a study of Revenue for the sub-committee of this committee, the DIRT committee. The difficulty in relation to this is that it depends on what the level of service is. People say that more resources should be devoted to the collection of revenue, and that drives up the percentage cost. Essentially there is a trade-off between the level of service one wants to deliver and the cost of it. Our findings in relation to Revenue is that the cost is quite competitive internationally. I remember being questioned about our reluctance to provide more resources for Revenue, which would have the effect of pushing that figure in the opposite direction.

In any case, we have had administrative budgets for a number of years now. We have set efficiency targets requiring people to shave a couple of percentage points off the cost of their housekeeping. For example, expenditure was of the order of £950 million. There would have to be a targeted attempt to focus on getting better value and making savings. If savings are made they can be used for developmental purposes such as strategic management initiatives and so on. This has all been done but at the end of the day we cannot forget the economy is growing rapidly. There are much greater demands for services now than there were four or five years ago. In any evaluation of costs we have to look to the volume of services provided. The focus has been there and has been part of the evaluation process since the early days.

Acting Chairman

The percentage cut is a crude mechanism for controlling expenditure as applies at health board level. For example, one is told to cut 2% for the following year. It is a crude mechanism. It might provide glowing percentages in terms of efficiency but there is a wider issue which concerns the standard and level of service provided rather than percentage cuts. I saw this in action in the 1980s and again more recently. It is a crude mechanism and does nothing for the public. In view of the interesting discussion we have had I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General if he has any observations.

Mr. Purcell

Anything that helps to restructure the way the Civil Service operates to make it more efficient and effective is to be welcomed. Despite the fact that it has been going on since 1994 it is still, as Mr. McCarthy said, early days. We are trying to turn a big juggernaut here. International experience has shown that it takes time. Even the more radical of the ventures, in New Zealand, had several hiccups and there are different schools of thought as to whether they succeeded.

I have considered carrying out a review of the SMI per se in toto to establish what progress has been made because I can see that the representatives of Dáil Éireann, to whom I report, need some independent assurance in this regard. To do that, and I would certainly listen to anything the committee would say on this, might be of limited value.

We have to take into account what else is happening. Mr. McCarthy mentioned that an impact evaluation is mooted. I am aware Mr. Embleton mentioned briefly the committee on public management research which has carried out some work and has issued useful papers, one of which is the adequacy of strategy statements and how well they were constructed. It was a positive-looking report. That work is being done. I am looking at one specific element, which would be helpful for the committee to report on, the series of programme evaluations being carried out in Departments to see what they are achieving. I expect to produce a report for the committee on that some time next year.

Looking at something as wide-ranging as the SMI, which now embraces e-commerce, e-government and so on, it is in danger of becoming an even bigger juggernaut and less manageable. The risk is that people will get too caught up with the process and lose focus on the end result. It is fair to say, and I would be mindful of this in considering whether to carry out any wide-ranging review of the SMI, that the means by which a better management can be attained is no guarantee that better management or services will be delivered. That is the acid test.

Ultimately, I could see a role for audit in the end game which may have to be considered in the event of a possible legislative change. As an assurance to Dáil Éireann a role for myself and my office might be to attest to the validity of some of the key targets being expressed certainly at macro level in organisations and the measurement of performance in the same way as I attest to appropriate accounting policies being adopted and assess if the figures are correct. There may be a case for certifying performance for Dáil Éireann as an extension to audit. It could be seen as an extension to my value-for-money mandate.

I am not necessarily saying that would have to be on an annual basis the same way as an annual audit. It is premature to speak about it yet but it may need to be factored into the end-game when Departments report on performance, set targets and claim certain achievements. I imagine what public representatives and the public will want to know is if they are sustainable. Somebody needs to be able to say that. I am not touting for the business in that sense but it would be necessary no matter what kind of quality assurance groups there are in the system, to have a real external evaluator operating on behalf of the people and Dáil Éireann.

Acting Chairman

We will probably revisit this matter. I take the Comptroller and Auditor General's points. We all need an independent audit on what is being done. We all say that if it is not measured it is not done. He is attempting to do the measuring. These matters will evolve. It is an excellent exercise to date even if it is without all the figures sought by Deputy Linehan. Obviously, it is not a simple exercise, it is ongoing and we welcome it. On behalf of the committee I thank Mr. Considine and Mr. McCarthy.

A propos what the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, the FOI structures are good and work effectively and the degree of training is excellent. However, there is a lack in the actual delivery of services training. There is a simple way to test that. Simply put oneself in the position of a consumer, one wishing to gain access to hospital services or a homeless person and become that person for a day and make application through the system. I have no difficulty with making representations even if it takes three months - we have a system in the Dáil to short circuit this and to which many have objected but thankfully it is still in place. However, what I object to is having to go down the line afterwards and say how the job should be done. That happens regularly. That is my criticism of certain Departments and their areas of responsibility.

A critic of mine on the staff of the local authority once said that along with suggesting the job should be done he always suggested how it should be done. My experience in public life is that one can identify an issue that needs to be dealt with and while knowing the procedures exist to enable it to be dealt with a year later one discovers it has not been dealt with. That is what is inexcusable and that is why the public have a problem. They do not blame the public service in general. They blame Members of this House, and they are right to do that because we are the people who represent their views at this level. I suggest that a test be carried out in relation to the efficacy and the application of the SMI, that is, the delivery of services to those people because problems still exist in that area.

Acting Chairman

Mr. McCarthy might tell us that it is intended to carry out such a test; I think he mentioned that in his opening comments.

Mr. McCarthy

Indeed, and there is some material available already by way of review of front line service delivery and there is a significant amount of training for front line staff who carry the heavy burden. In some instances, the difficulties at the point of access relate not to training for service delivery but either a resource or a policy issue. The service sought or required may not be available. I take the Deputy's point that that raises other issues about the targets and so on that may be set down for a particular area but we would need to be clearer if we were measuring the implementation of a service standard to customers at the point of delivery and the adequacy of the service or policy to begin with. They are two different aspects which raise two different issues.

We will fall between two stools, Chairman.

Acting Chairman

I take the point Mr. McCarthy makes. If somebody asks us for twice as much money to provide twice the level of service or whatever, that is a decision for those of us in the other House or somebody else to make. I do not want to get too much into the nitty gritty. Deputy Durkan is questioning our next role and when we can get information back from you on the evaluation.

Mr. McCarthy

We can supply immediately the information about the current standards of customer service and the information on the testing of that, which has gone on to date. If the committee wishes to consider that further——

Acting Chairman

Yes, the delivery of service and how it is progressing. I thank both Secretaries General, Mr. Considine and Mr. McCarthy, for their contributions, and indeed their staff. As the Accounting Officers from the Department of Finance and the Department of the Taoiseach are not present, and other aspects of Votes 3 and 6 remain to be examined, we will not note Votes 3 and 6 at this stage. That can be done when we revisit the Votes relating to the Departments of Finance and the Taoiseach. Is that agreed? Agreed.

We must agree the agenda for Thursday, 19 October, which is Votes 26 and 29 - Department of Education and Science, 1999 Appropriation Accounts. Agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

The Committee adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until Thursday, 19 October 2000 at 11 a.m.
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