COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 7 Jul 2011

Business of Committee.

Chairman

Are the minutes of 30 June 2011 agreed? Agreed.

As for matters arising from the minutes, we have secured agreement from the Whips that for each meeting, two members of the Opposition will be paired with two Government members and consequently, our public meetings will not be interrupted by votes in the Dáil. Each party should make its own arrangements for those individuals to be present here during those votes.

The next item pertains to correspondence received since the meeting of Thursday, 30 June 2011. No. 3.1 refers to correspondence dated 29 June 2011 from Mr. Jerry Carroll, director of the General Council of the Bar of Ireland regarding the third interim report on the procurement of legal services by public bodies. It is to be noted and a reply will be prepared by the secretariat for issue to the Bar Council.

No. 3.2 refers to correspondence dated 1 July 2011 from Mr. Kevin Cardiff, Secretary General of the Department of Finance regarding the provision of information requested at the meeting of 2 September 2010 on the purchase of the site for the decentralised FÁS office in Birr, County Offaly. It is to be noted and published. No. 3.3 refers to correspondence received on 6 July 2011 from Mr. John Buckley, Comptroller and Auditor General, on accounting arrears as at 30 June 2011. It is to be noted and published and if members agree, the committee can discuss this under agenda item No. 4.

No. 3.4 refers to correspondence received on 6 July 2011 from the office of Deputy Mary Lou McDonald regarding the recommendations of the draft report on the hearings of the 30th committee for the period from July 2009 to January 2011. I have discussed this with the Deputy and I understand the issues have been resolved and we will proceed from here.

No. 3.5 refers to correspondence received on 6 July 2011 from Mr. Cathal Magee, chief executive of the Health Service Executive on the opening statement and some additional material that has been circulated to members and will be available on their computer screens. It is to be noted and published.

Reports on statements and accounts received since the meeting of 30 June 2011 are listed in Nos. 4.12 to 4.22. They are to be noted without reading through them. Some of the VEC accounts noted here date back to 2004 and while it is clear the audits were performed at that time, the fact that such accounts are only now being presented to the Dáil dilutes the principle of good public accountability. I intend to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General whether he will seek an explanation for these delays. I suggest the committee notes the accounts but with a caveat to the effect that members are unhappy to be asked to deal with accounts that are so out of date. This offers the committee an opportunity to again signal to Accounting Officers that this practice will not be tolerated. Moreover, it will not simply be a case of asking for an explanation as the committee will be obliged to explore other avenues to ensure the presentation of accounts in a timely fashion.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Does this mean they were only signed off recently?

Chairman

I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor to comment.

Mr. John Buckley

I refer the Deputy to my letter at No. 3.3. First, I wish to deal with it in a little more detail as we had a somewhat disjointed conversation at last week's meeting about the audit arrears and the accounting arrears. I have included in an appendix to that letter the status of all embedded arrears that exist. This states that there are 15 bodies that, from an accounting point of view, are in arrears and that the vast bulk of those have been dealt with in separate special reports - there have been ten of them over the years - and that four of them will feature in our future report. As I explained to members in private session last week, there is an escape valve or reporting mechanism to deal with this issue independently of the certification process and it has been or will be used.

As for the tabling of reports to the Dáil, there was a problem in my office. I should explain the vast bulk of legislative provisions provide for the accounts to be sent to the agency following audit. That is the standard operating practice and it occurs in every single case. Exceptionally, in the case of the VECs, there is an additional provision that the accounts be sent to the Minister. A fortnight ago, we became aware that a certain number of accounts had not been sent directly to the Minister. This could have been the cause for the Minister not laying those accounts. Immediately on becoming aware of this, we passed them all on to the Minister and they now have been laid. To the extent that this happened in our office, it appears to have happened because we move people from job to job. The almost universal standard operating practice is simply to send the accounts back to the agency, which then transmits them, together with its annual report, to the Minister. Sometimes the Cabinet reviews those annual reports, which then are tabled for the Dáil. This was an exception and because of changes in the office, a reasonably large number fell through the cracks over the years. We now have rectified this by making sure the Minister has those accounts and he now will table them.

However, that is a separate issue from the arrears. The arrears, as a result of an arrears elimination programme undertaken in recent years, are reasonably under control and an explanation has been attached to the letter of anything that is still to be finalised in the next few months.

Chairman

On the current comments regarding the position in respect of FÁS, I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to give an account this morning regarding FÁS, the newspaper reports thereon and some concerns raised by members.

Mr. John Buckley

I cleared the accounts for the year 2010 of FÁS for certification on 26 April and they were signed on 17 May. As I just explained about the process a moment ago, when they are finalised they are sent back to the agency itself, which then transmits them to the supervising Minister, who either takes them to the Cabinet prior to tabling or tables them for here. While I gather they have not yet been tabled, our audits are up-to-date and the audit certification process is up-to-date.

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

Have they gone back?

Mr. John Buckley

They have.

Chairman

The audit was being conducted from February onwards-----

Mr. John Buckley

Yes.

Chairman

----- and was signed off on 17 May 2011.

Deputy Shane Ross

I understand the problem there is internal, as FÁS cannot get its act together about designing it and getting it into the Irish language and so on. For some reason, it simply cannot do that. That is what the agency is saying.

Chairman

However, for the committee's information, it is important to note the audit was under way from February 2011-----

Deputy Shane Ross

Yes.

Chairman

-----and the accounts on the audit were signed off on 17 May 2011.

Deputy Shane Ross

Yes, that is correct.

Chairman

On No. 5, it is noted that our meeting on 23 July 2011 will consider the work programme for the early autumn in order that Accounting Officers can be put on notice in respect of appearances before the committee.

On the final report on the hearings of the 30th committee for the period from July 2009 to January 2011, following last week's meeting the recommendations from the report were extracted and circulated to members for comment. The matters raised by members have generally been dealt with. I propose to publish the report by way of a launch in the AV room at noon on Wednesday, 13 July 2011.

We will now discuss Special Report No. 70 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Emergency Departments.

Mr. John Buckley (An tArd Reachtaire Cúntas agus Ciste) called and examined.