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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 7 Jul 2011

Special Report No. 70 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Emergency Departments

Mr. Cathal Magee (Chief Executive Officer, Health Service Executive) and Mr. Fergal Lynch (Assistant Secretary, Department of Health) called and examined.

Before we commence I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence regarding a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House, a person outside the Houses, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 158 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policy or policies.

I welcome Mr. Cathal Magee, chief executive of the Health Service Executive, and ask him to introduce his officials.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Thank you, Chairman. I am joined by Ms Laverne McGuinness, national director integrated services; Dr. Barry White, national director clinical strategy and programmes; Dr. Philip Crowley, who has taken up his appointment of national director quality, risk and clinical care, in the past six months; Dr. Una Geary, national clinical lead for the emergency medicine programme, one of the national programmes within Dr. White's team; and Mr. Liam Woods, national director of finance.

I welcome representatives from the Department of Health and ask Mr. Lynch to introduce his officials.

Mr. Fergal Lynch

I am the Assistant Secretary in the Department of Health with responsibility for acute hospital services.

I ask Mr. Buckley to introduce the special report.

Mr. John Buckley

This report, which was completed in November 2009, is basically a status report on the development of emergency medicine up to that point. There are likely to have been substantial changes given that 18 months have elapsed since it was completed. The Accounting Officer will be in a position to update the committee on those changes and developments.

The report sought to build on a large number of reviews of hospital emergency departments in the period from 2002 to 2007. It essentially examines the progress made in addressing the key recommendations made in approximately 12 reports carried out during the period in question.

Before getting into the findings I will mention some contextual issues. The first thing to bear in mind is that the configuration and make-up of emergency departments can vary from hospital to hospital. In reality, therefore, when we make cost comparisons, although the costs given are valid for each hospital, when it comes to comparisons and staffing levels, they can only provide, at this stage of development, a starting point for a discussion and conversation about the relationships between cost inputs and outputs. Another contextual matter is that there is a drawback from the viewpoint of any move to evidence based management in that information on resourcing is not as yet captured systematically within the Health Service Executive. This led to our need to gather most of the information by way of survey. Also, performance measurement on the output side is limited to counting attendances and bed waiting times. Bed waiting times refer to the time from the decision to admit until the patient gets a bed in the hospital. As a result, with the assistance of experts, we needed to devise performance criteria for purposes of the evaluation.

That said, the surveys we carried out in 33 hospitals found that there is a wide variation in the resources devoted to each attendance and in the associated direct cost of emergency care across the hospitals. At a minimum, this points to a need to ascertain the cause of the variation. The central point here is that measurement of inputs and outputs associated with major functions such as emergency departments and emergency medicine generally needs to be done systematically to position the HSE to make informed allocation and management decisions.

From an operational perspective, the examination found that the efficiency and effectiveness of service delivery was constrained by access to diagnostics and that there were delays in accessing senior clinical decision makers within emergency departments in approximately two thirds of cases. There was also a lack of timely access to specialist consultants in most cases and the waiting time for bed accommodation following decisions to admit was unsatisfactorily long in a large number of hospitals. Owing to the interconnectedness of emergency departments with the wider health system, improvements generally can be achieved not just within the departments but by streamlining hospital services on the one hand and community care services on the other.

I will point to two or three issues in the area of hospital organisation. The effectiveness of emergency departments could be favourably impacted upon by better discharge planning and providing alternative lower cost accommodation for patients whose acute care episodes have been dealt with, improving hospital capacity through more day care and same day admissions and wider use of initiatives to improve patient flow through the system.

At the level of the community, a range of initiatives has been piloted with the aim of diverting patients who do not need emergency treatment from presenting at emergency departments. Examples of these initiatives include the use of community intervention teams, rapid access clinics for urgent but non-emergency care, home help and home care packages and out-of-hours general practitioner services. Most of these initiatives had not been fully evaluated when we did the survey. It is desirable to fully evaluate them so that their cost effectiveness can be ascertained. In terms of the future organisation of emergency departments, the report suggested that it would be useful to consider how good practice opportunities might: feed into planning; establish minimum standards for emergency departments in the areas of diagnostic support, senior decision maker availability and specialty consultation; combine measures of timeliness with indicators of clinical outcome, patient safety, patient satisfaction and cost so as to establish a balanced set of performance indicators; and define the boundaries of the emergency department so that accurate and comparable costs and performance indicators can be generated for core department activity. Thereafter, it would be useful to classify emergency departments by activity bands so that the resource input associated with each attendance can be compared for like institutions.

The Accounting Officer will be in a position to outline the developments in the service in the past two years and the impact of any reconfiguration carried out to date.

Thank you, Mr. Buckley. We are also joined by Mr. Heffernan from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I invite Mr. Magee to make his opening statement.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to attend the Committee of Public Accounts to discuss matters arising from the 2009 Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 70 on emergency departments. We look forward to working with the committee and extending to it every co-operation and assistance in its work.

I introduced my colleagues but in view of the significance of this issue and the public debate that surrounds it, Dr. Cathal O'Donnell, medical director for ambulance services and a consultant in emergency medicine, Professor Gary Courtney, national lead on the acute medicine programme, Mr. Brian Gilroy and Mr. Sean McGrath, national directors, are also attending and are available to the committee.

These are challenging times for our health care services. Demand for services continues to grow year on year and exceeds our capacity to meet it. At the same time we are implementing almost €1 billion in budget reductions in 2011. For example, more than 588,000 inpatient treatments were provided in 2010, which is an increase of 47,000 or 9% over our planned activity, almost 730,000 day case treatments were provided in 2010, an increase of 60,000 or 9% over the 2009 outturn, and there were more than 3.5 million attendances in our outpatient departments, an increase of 200,000 or 6% over the 2009 outturn. During 2010 there were just over 1.1 million individual presentations in the country's 33 emergency departments. Almost one third of those who presented, 369,000 patients, were subsequently admitted to hospital. Data for the first four months of 2011 show an increase of 5,614 presentations and 4,535 emergency admissions when compared to the same period last year.

There are considerable challenges in our emergency departments. It is not acceptable that patients are waiting on trolleys for long periods. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report raised a number of important conclusions on more streamlined hospital processes, community initiatives, the relative cost of emergency department attendances, acute hospital services and regional centres. In my introduction, I will comment briefly on each of these areas.

The national clinical programmes have been established to drive improvements in how services are delivered. These programmes, which are being led by Dr. Barry White, have been established over the past year. The two most significant programmes in this context are the acute medicine programme, which is focused on the management of medical patients who represent the majority of cases requiring admission by emergency department, and the emergency medicine programme.

The focus of the first programme is on implementing key solutions which have been shown to drive major improvements in the care of patients with emergency presentations. This includes standardised protocols, early access to senior decision makers, rapid access to diagnostics, availability of community intervention teams and home IV services and seven day per week discharge planning. This programme will commence implementation in 12 hospitals by the end of 2011. The acute medicine programme document which outlines these interventions was published within the past six months. During 2010 and 2011 there has been renewed focus on implementing a range of service improvement measures and initiatives, such as reducing the length of time people stay in hospital, increasing the numbers of patients receiving day surgery, increasing day of surgery admission, putting in place additional ward rounds by consultants, increasing the number of senior clinical decision makers and putting in place early discharge policies to ensure patients are discharged by 11 a.m.

The programmes include plans to recruit 14 new consultant posts in emergency medicine and 34 new consultant posts in acute medicine to support implementation in 2011 and 2012. The future development and recruitment of advance nurse practitioners will also form part of a comprehensive workforce plan for emergency departments. We have set out in appendix 1 to our submission details on service performance improvements and performance metrics in emergency departments and my colleague, Ms McGuinness, can take members through these. The appendix also summarises the key interventions for the national clinical programmes for 2011.

In regard to regional centres and safety of small hospitals, a critical factor is ensuring that our hospitals and all the services they provide are safe and comply with the appropriate clinical standards. The safety of care must be central in our planning for the role of smaller hospitals within our acute hospital networks. We are regulated by the Health Information and Quality Authority, which set out very clear recommendations in its reports on Ennis and Mallow hospitals in regard to what is safe or unsafe when delivering care in hospitals of this size. We are required to implement the HIQA recommendations to ensure that the standards of care delivered in smaller hospitals are as high as possible and that the type of care provided is appropriate to the clinical setting and the needs of patients. An implementation process has been established which involves all the relevant national clinical leads in critical care, emergency medicine, acute surgery, acute medicine and the ambulance services. The clinical leads have set out what type of patient should go to smaller hospitals, taking account of the level of specialist cover and the volume of care provided in each hospital. The clinical advice of the national clinical leads is consistent with and reinforces the HIQA recommendations for smaller hospitals.

The HSE recognise that changes to the role of smaller hospitals must be accompanied by the commensurate development of our ambulance emergency services. In recent years, the HSE has invested significantly in training ambulance paramedic staff and the number of advanced paramedics has increased from 14 in 2005 to 220 to date. Appendix 2 sets out an assessment of the implications of the HIQA reports on Ennis and Mallow for the delivery of services in our smaller hospitals. Dr. Philip Crowley, director with responsibility for quality and patient safety, can speak further about this key section of the document. Appendix 3 sets out a briefing note on the ambulance emergency service.

Community services and primary care also play an important role in relieving the pressure on emergency departments by providing services in the community which prevent unnecessary hospital admissions and provide hospital patients with appropriate services once they are discharged from hospital. At the end of April 2011, 368 primary care teams were in place. Approximately one third of these teams are well developed and offer a range of services including falls prevention, diabetes and asthma programmes. The remaining teams are in earlier stages of development. Our service plan target is to have 527 teams in place by the end of 2011.

The GP out-of-hours service plays a very important role in pre-hospital emergency care. In 2010 there were more than 899,000 contacts made with the GP out-of-hours services. The HSE carried out a national review of the service in 2010 with a view to driving down costs and achieving greater efficiencies. The recommendations arising from this review are being implemented in each of the four regions. Appendix 4 sets out additional information on these initiatives and performance data associated with them.

I come to the cost of emergency department attendances. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General found there were significant variances in the cost per attendance at emergency departments nationally. The Comptroller and Auditor General also noted some issues in deriving the costs used and made recommendations such as: the need to distinguish EDs that have diagnostics from those that do not; the need to filter out costs associated with additional services such as chest pain and endoscopy; the need to review cost treatment of streaming units; and the need to review the accuracy of cost capture and design an overhead allocation model.

These conclusions we support and they are being addressed in our approach to costing service in the acute setting and the clinical programmes. ED costs represent on average 7% of total hospital cost. The HSE has adopted the approach of costing all inpatient, day case and ED attendances and has implemented and is implementing full costing on a diagnosis related groups basis, which is called DRG, with the support of the Economic and Social Research Institute, ERSI. This is a standard method of defining inpatient and day case work used internationally. This costing approach takes into account the full cost of treatment, including ED attendance. The output from this costing process is used to influence the funding of the 39 hospitals involved. This costing approach includes the development of a standard cost allocating model for all overhead costs as referred to by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

There has been no common classification of ED activity. The work undertaken in EDs varies from minor injury to major trauma. In some instances ambulance bypass protocols are in place to ensure patients go to the most appropriate facility. The ED programme is looking at the classification of activity in these settings to allow for appropriate comparative analysis and appropriate internal and external benchmarking.

The HSE has undertaken a patient level costing exercise in both 2010 and 2011 as a precursor to moving funding to the patient level. In 2011 the HSE will introduce a pilot project in orthopaedics which involves payment per treatment from July 2011.

The committee will be aware that our hospitals are facing challenges in recruiting sufficient non-consultant hospital doctors across a range of hospital specialties. This is despite a major overseas recruitment drive. There are 4,660 NCHD posts in the Irish health system and, as of 11 July, 80% or 3,750 of the 4,660 posts will be part of structured training schemes run by the postgraduate training bodies and funded by the HSE. The postgraduate training bodies have indicated that they have largely filled - in excess of 97% - posts on their training schemes. The remaining 19%, 910 posts, are service posts and not training posts. The key issue is the extent to which this complement of posts is filled. As of 5 July, 172 posts remain unfilled and as of yesterday, 6 July, that has reduced to 158. While the full impact of any vacancies will not be known until the next rotation commences next week, we are aware that there will be shortages in a number of EDs, especially in smaller hospitals. Hospital management is working with clinical directors in a planned way to develop and devise contingency arrangements which can be implemented if and when required, to ensure any resulting impact on services is minimised and patient safety is maintained. Appendix 5 sets out a full and detailed report on the current non-consultant hospital doctor situation and we can update the committee in the question and answer session.

Members of the committee will be aware that the programme for Government committed to the establishment of a special delivery unit in the Department of Health. The unit, under the leadership of Dr. Martin Connor, will initially focus on the areas of reducing trolley waits in emergency departments and on cutting inpatient, day case and outpatient waiting lists in our health system. Dr. Connor has also been appointed to the board of the HSE, and a dedicated committee of the board has been established to support the implementation work of the special delivery unit.

This concludes my introduction and, together with my colleagues, we will be happy to take questions.

I thank Mr. Magee. May we publish the opening statement?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes.

I welcome Mr. Magee and his colleagues. I acknowledge that the accident and emergency departments are among the hardest working parts of the health service. I thank those working in those departments for their work and thank the HSE for the work it does in supporting them. Having had personal experience of at least three of these wards, I am struck by their professionalism and the quality of the work they do. My vein of questioning today is all about understanding the work they do, how it is measured and how it can be improved in the future - interests we all share.

I will structure my comments based on the report produced by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I will structure my questions under the four headings in the report: emergency department performance; influence of wider hospital management; managing emergency demand; and care in emergency departments. In my questions I will try to integrate Mr. Magee's opening statement, which we got yesterday, into the headings I have outlined. At the end of my questioning - approximately two or three minutes before I finish - I will make two or three tentative observations I have formed based on looking at this material and researching it elsewhere, on which I would appreciate Mr. Magee's views.

Is it correct that I have 20 minutes?

Under the first heading, emergency department performance, I refer to paragraph 2.2 on page 22 of the report. I will allow Mr. Magee a moment to open that page. This report assesses the performance of the different departments under the four headings of decision capacity, speciality access, diagnostics, and bed waiting time. A total of 33 departments were assessed. Under the heading of decision capacity, 23 of the 33 hospitals were given an unsatisfactory rating. Under speciality access, 19 of the 33 acquired that rating. Under diagnostics, it is four of 33. Under bed waiting time, it is 26 out of 33. What is Mr. Magee's reaction to those kinds of performance levels? Where does he believe they stand today?

Mr. Cathal Magee

I think the presence of decision capacity in our EDs is two things. One is the number of emergency consultants we have in place and the level of medical presence in each of the units. Also, a significant issue is around the cover that is provided over the seven-day period and outside the normal working day. We need to increase the number of emergency consultants we have. As I outlined to the committee, we are recruiting an additional 14 consultant posts in emergency medicine. We are also, I suppose, managing a range of changes to the way in which the emergency departments are organised and structured and the protocols they follow across all of the system. Perhaps I would ask Dr. Una Geary, who is the lead on our emergency medicine programme, to comment on that aspect.

I would be particularly interested if Dr. Geary could comment on where these figures stand today.

Dr. Una Geary

I will preface my answers to the Deputy's question by explaining that we are in the process of developing an emergency medicine programme which will focus on improving quality, patient access and the cost effectiveness of care.

That is the EMP.

Dr. Una Geary

Yes, the emergency medicine programme. In terms of decision capacity, as Mr. Magee outlined, one of the key areas for the programme will be improving and increasing the number of senior decision makers in emergency departments, primarily consultants in emergency medicine, but also expanding the number of advanced nurse practitioners who are involved in patient care in our departments. We are working very closely with the other key acute care programmes to improve emergency department patient access to specialties, as I outlined. Our programmes started last year. We are at the stage where we have detailed draft plans ready and we are engaged in detailed work across the various specialties to start implementing this change before the end of the year. Later this year, we anticipate there will be dramatic improvements in how our patients can access the other specialties they need in a very timely manner. Again, we are working very closely with the diagnostics group because it is recognised that access to diagnostics is crucial, not only to emergency department patients but also patients in acute medicine units which are listed at the end of this document. Although there has not been a dramatic change in any of the dimensions listed in the table since the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was produced, an extensive body of work has been done in the last 12 months to position the acute hospital service to tackle each of these areas and start implementing significant improvements within the coming months.

Has an assessment been done of how our accident and emergency departments are performing in the areas in question?

Dr. Barry White

It is probably worth for two minutes giving the Deputy an idea of where we are in the national clinical programmes to give a background of where they are. I am a consultant in haematology and I am on secondment to establish these programmes. Essentially, they are joint initiatives between the Health Service Executive and the different professional bodies - doctors, nurses and therapists - and patients. Front-line staff are defining how we should deliver care in the best and quickest way possible within our resources. Many of the areas of the programmes we have looked at are around emergency medicine, what occurs in emergency departments and to improve those areas. The programmes have defined a set of measures by which the services need to be implemented and there needs to be systems put in place to collect all that data. This is specifically to address the Deputy's point. Later on this year, a number of aspects of that data collection will be implemented.

There have been significant improvements in some of the sites in terms of access to decision making. If I could introduce Professor Garry Courtney, who is the lead for acute medicine, he will talk about some of that. The other important point is that by the end of the year we anticipate a very substantial improvement in access to decision making with the appointment of in excess of 50 additional consultants. These are not just additional appointments but people going in specifically to address the issue the Deputy raised, which is the ability to get access to key clinical decision makers.

Before Dr. Courtney speaks, it should be noted that I do not doubt the existence of plans or that measures are in place. All I want to know is what the measures are saying today.

Dr. Garry Courtney

We have been quite high level so far and we could bring this down to specifics. I am a consultant physician and work in a hospital on the front line looking after medical patients. The reason the acute medicine programme is focusing on medical patients is that 50% of the bed days occupied in hospitals are medicine and they account for about 75% of the costs. That is the key area that must be managed and controlled. Otherwise all other specialties are squeezed out, elective surgery is cancelled and waiting lists grow.

I work in St. Luke's Hospital, Kilkenny, with which the Chairman will be familiar. We had very significant problems with trolleys and patients in corridors. It is totally unacceptable to have 27 patients in corridors. We brought in a new way of working which has been to establish what is called a medical assessment unit. That lies at the heart of the acute medicine programme. We have not had trolleys or beds in the corridor in St. Luke's Hospital, Kilkenny, for about the last eight years.

The medical assessment unit has been up and running for the last ten years. We are now rolling out that programme and establishing acute medical units or medical assessment units in 15 hospitals this year. The key features of this process, which will bring improvements, are the new consultant posts. This will not just be 34 new physicians but 34 new physicians who will work in a different way, as will their other colleagues. It will involve general practitioners and there will be a tremendous and much enhanced relationship between GPs and consultant physicians. We are bringing GPs into the governance arrangements of the hospital. We have taken down the wall and barrier between GPs and hospitals. The GPs will be the key people who will stream - that is a new word - the patients into different areas. This means they will go to psychiatry, medicine, surgery or whatever. We have often said it is like Croke Park. One does not bring all the people through one gate, rather one opens up about seven gates and one also lets people out in a more efficient way. Senior physicians, that is, consultants like me, and specialist registrars and registrars will have a continuous presence on the floor.

It is known internationally that if one has senior decision makers on the floor, as it were, a number of things happen like magic. Patients are assessed and treated much more quickly and sent home. They are not admitted because decisions are made immediately and diagnostics are used much less. Junior doctors who are in training tend to cover themselves by ordering too many tests. Obviously that is expensive and it goes to the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments.

Diagnostics are important and our radiology colleagues have greatly facilitated the programme by-----

I apologise to Dr. Courtney for interrupting. As my moment in the sun will quickly elapse, I would like to move through some of the issues. I will pick up on a point Dr. Courtney made which I would like to explore, namely, increasing access to diagnostics. I draw his attention to figure 3.2 on page 36 of the report which refers to performance in this very area. It relates to the ability of hospitals to deliver different diagnostic functions and asks hospitals to rate the various functions. This is, I believe, the point Dr. Courtney was making. The vast majority of these areas are beyond my understanding. The exception, however, is the area of plain film X-rays, which I would like to examine to understand how things work in this regard. Of 33 hospitals that performed, 12 of them rated their service as "fair", "poor" or "very poor". Is that acceptable?

Dr. Garry Courtney

No, it is absolutely unacceptable.

What is driving this? One would expect that of all the diagnostics reported on here, the one everyone should be able to do quickly is examine an X-ray film and inform the patient and his or her carer of where matters stand. What is behind the figures I have cited?

Dr. Garry Courtney

These figures apply to the report in 2009.

Dr. Garry Courtney

I would say that because of the diagnostics programme - Mr. Magee mentioned the 31 programmes - quite a number of extra radiologists and radiographers have been appointed. There has been huge investment in better equipment in the last two years. Also, we now have a tremendous improvement in that nurses can now order X-rays in our hospitals. From the time the patient presents, the turnaround time for nurses ordering an X-ray is now five minutes.

Are such figures available now? Does Dr. Courtney have an understanding of where we stand at present?

Dr. Garry Courtney

Perhaps I can refer that question to the Comptroller and Auditor General. In the past week, we have been filling in forms and providing up-to-date information on where we stand on all of these issues. My strong belief, as opposed to a suspicion, is that-----

Dr. Barry White is nodding furiously.

Dr. Barry White

To address specifically the question the Deputy asked, these are surveys. To get the Deputy an update, we would need to do another survey. Where we are at with the individual programmes is more about putting measures in place. We will have surveys by the end of the year as we implement and roll out the programmes and we will be happy to return to the committee with an update later on in the year, especially as we implement a lot of the programmes. The measures we are putting in place will be more real time as in there is a time in which one has to have the X-rays back to the department. Those will be the measures we will be producing going forward. The simple answer to the Deputy's question is that a repeat survey has not been done in this format but there are other metrics.

On the point of metrics, will the witnesses look at paragraph 3.27 of the report which is about assessing waiting times. The report states that while there were only universal metrics in individual hospitals, a range of waiting times were being measured and at least 17 such metrics were reported in a survey of hospitals. That paragraph identifies the various ways in which different hospitals measured the definition of waiting time. Further on in the report, section 3.3 states that the HSE has stated that under the national services plan 2009 it has committed to a patient time indicator, PTI. The report states that by 2009, 11 hospitals out of the 33 collected this information electronically. Have the measurement systems improved and, if so, is the PTI in this report the same as the PET in the HSE contribution which stated that 17 hospitals assess waiting times? Does that mean there are electronic measurements in place for 17 out of 33 hospitals and, if so, is that good? If the PET and the PTI are one and the same, that means that in the past two years the number of hospitals assessing waiting times has increased from 11 to 17. How is this being measured electronically and how broadly is it rolled out?

Dr. Barry White

I will ask Dr. Una Geary to respond.

Dr. Una Geary

I will speak to the issue in section 3.27 initially about the different types of measures that were in place in different emergency departments in 2009. The emergency medicine programme has done extensive work in developing a suite of key process measures that will map the patient's journey through the emergency department and the key stages in that journey. The definitions have been agreed by the emergency medicine programme. When I speak about the emergency medicine programme, I speak about a group of clinicians, nurses, advance nurse practitioners, doctors and therapists, who have come together and agreed all the aspects of this plan, in consultation with patient representative groups. We have a detailed suite of measures that home in on every stage in the patient journey. These have also been agreed and are aligned to the work the SDU will start in September around the patient journey.

How many hospitals are implementing that system at present?

Dr. Una Geary

This will be implemented in all hospitals. At present there is a range of IT capability in our various emergency departments. Several hospitals can produce this data very quickly and some need an upgrade in their IT systems. I would flag it as a key area of development.

Out of 33 hospitals, how many have the system at present?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Two measures are currently being taken in the hospitals. One is what is traditionally known as the trolley count, whereby patients are counted every day in the trolley. Traditionally the HSE has taken that trolley count at 2 p.m. each day for all of 33 hospitals. With effect from 27 June, we have moved to take the trolley count at 8 a.m. which is the same as the IMNO count. Every day we count electronically the number of patients waiting on trolleys at 8 a.m. and the figures are available for all 33 hospitals. That just counts the numbers waiting on the trolley but it does not give a true measure of the experience-----

Or of the waiting time either.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

We give the waiting times for the number of patients waiting six hours, up to 12 hours, those waiting 12 to 24 hours and over 24 hours. I have some of those statistics with me and I will be happy to go through them with the committee. The other measure we have moved to relates to ICT capacity and capability. Our hospitals do not have common infrastructure. We have moved to what is known as the patient experience time.

That is the PET.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Yes. Seventeen of our hospitals are currently collecting patient experience time, five are at a basic stage of the process. That counts the time from when the patient comes through the emergency department door until he or she is either admitted to a bed or discharged, if necessary. That is the time measurement system for each patient coming through the hospitals.

Some 17 out of the 33 hospitals have that system.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

The majority of our very large hospitals are included within that ICT capability.

When does Ms McGuinness believe that system will be rolled out to all hospitals?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

We are moving towards having it in place by the end of 2011, in line with the new indicators.

Dr. Barry White

By the end of the year we should have it rolled out to the locations that represent 90% of the issues around trolleys, that will be 20 locations.

I have no doubt from reading the report and hearing the testimony that the quantity of care being delivered is massive and very impressive but it strikes me that there should be a common system for measuring this across every patient. It was flagged in this report as being a big opportunity. As we stand, only just over half of the hospitals have a PET system in place. It strikes me that the system needs to be rolled out comprehensively.

Mr. Cathal Magee

That is entirely accepted. In the current phase with putting in place the special delivery unit we are revisiting all of the metrics and performance management data across the emergency department, standardising the measurements and putting in place the IT systems to try to give a regular weekly update on both patient experience and the numbers on trolleys. That is a baseline that has to be put in place in dealing with the situation going forward.

Dr. Barry White

We accept that fully and the statement is valid.

I thank the witnesses for their answers and for their work in this area.

I thank Deputy Donohoe. I call Deputy Michael McCarthy.

I welcome the HSE officials and thank them for a very detailed report which raised several critical issues and several questions. The report finds that two out of three people attending emergency departments are discharged following treatment. Is that figure largely in line with HSE guidelines and what research has been done on the issue?

Dr. Una Geary

That is a standard practice in most western emergency health systems. One would expect that admission rates would vary up to about 30% and that discharge rates would be about 70%.

We have all seen the advertisements on television which try to ensure that only those who need to be in accident and emergency departments are seen there and are either admitted or discharged. How effective have the primary care teams been at their end? Mr. Magee outlined the numbers and the target for the end of 2011. How effective is that in reducing the numbers in accident and emergency departments who do not need to be there? How effective has that been in terms of the approach?

Mr. Cathal Magee

The impact to date has been moderate. Recently we conducted a limited survey on some of the major Dublin hospitals and found that almost 70% of attendances were self referral. In the major urban areas and certainly in the city areas, there is a huge percentage of self-referral to emergency departments. That is an issue that suggests that in some of the urban environments, the primary care service - the GP service, the out-of-hours service where there are gaps - is not necessarily meeting the requirements. The key issue is to stream patients appropriately to the right level of care within the community before attendance at emergency department.

What needs to be done? What is the benefit of that?

Mr. Cathal Magee

As the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General sets out, everybody agrees that the primary care service, the GP service, including the GP out-of-hours service, is a critical component of our health system and has to work as the first point of call for non-emergency or non-major acute issues. That area must be developed. Our primary care strategy is still in the early stages of development. It is obviously resource constrained but there is a commitment in the programme for Government to put primary care and the GP service at the heart of our future health care system. There is no argument about the importance of that issue. Managing that and the relationship with the acute system requires integration protocols and, as Dr. Courtney said, very significant joint engagement from the hospital system with the community, and general practitioners, GPs, having access to acute medicine units as required. It involves a reconfiguration of our primary care and our acute system.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

With regard to the GP out-of-hours service, there is approximately 90% coverage of the population when one takes into account the four extended hours services over Dublin. A total of 899,000 people contacted the out-of-hours service in 2010. There has been an increase in the number of people availing of the out-of-hours service for the first four months of the year, up to 53,000. That is a pre-hospital avoidance measure and the uptake of it is increasing with its extension. There are several areas in primary locations which do not have an out-of-hours service, for example, Tallaght. We are currently in strong discussions to have an out-of-hours service in place before the end of the year in some of those vibrant communities.

How many of the primary care teams have access to diagnostic facilities?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Not many of our primary care centres have diagnostic facilities. All GPs make referrals to the hospitals for diagnostics but they do not have diagnostics on the premises themselves. There is one in Arklow. We do not have many facilities with diagnostics in them.

Is there a link with the local hospital in areas where they do not have those facilities?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Yes, there is a link. The GPs have automatic referral to the hospitals for diagnostics and referral back.

How effective are the primary care teams thus far, limited as they might be, in terms of access to accident and emergency services, given what the witness just said about the restrictions on it? How much improvement needs to be made?

Dr. Una Geary

The international literature suggests that it is very important in a health system to have a well-developed primary care system to complement the emergency care system. The Deputy referred to admission rates. Interestingly, in the US, which has a very poorly developed primary care system, the admission rates in emergency departments can be as low as 12% because even more patients who have primary care problems go to the emergency departments there. However, it is also important to remember that there is an overlap between the types of patients who attend primary care and who come to emergency departments. It is impossible to quantify the exact impact expanding out-of-hours general practitioner services will have on emergency department attendances. One will not see one-to-one reductions in the number of patients attending emergency departments as it is a far more complex equation. It will be very difficult to quantify exactly.

Given the constraints on resources and the obvious economic difficulties facing the country, how can the service be improved in terms of having that overall effect? What needs to be done?

Mr. Cathal Magee

If we are to change our health system, significant leadership will be required, particularly from our clinicians. Between 85% and 90% of what takes place in our health system is a clinical pathway. What has been very significant in the past two years, and it was started by my predecessor, Dr. Brendan Drumm, is the involvement of clinicians in the leadership and management of our health care system, and in its change and reform.

The work done over the past 18 months by Dr. Barry White and his team on programme needs, on mapping out and blueprinting the future care pathways in our acute system, is hugely important and strategic. We have work to do yet to take that into the primary care setting and to link up the provision of care and the care pathways in our primary care into our secondary care and acute system. That is the major element. All of our work up to now has been more focused, perhaps, on our acute system. We are currently looking at how we can put in equivalent clinical leads in some of the key areas of our primary care system.

Chronic disease management is probably the key component of how the primary care system needs to take the pressure on our acute system back into the community care system. It probably needs more significant clinical leadership within the primary care part of the portfolio.

Dr. Barry White

To answer the Deputy's question about how to improve it, there are two issues. Managing chronic disease better, which are the top five conditions such as the respiratory diseases - asthma, bronchitis and emphysema - diabetes, heart failure, stroke, cardiovascular disease and so forth, has been shown to decrease recurrent rates and requirements for attending at the hospital. However, it is a long-term return on investment. One of the focuses of the primary care programme we established is to manage chronic disease in an integrated way within primary care, and to manage it better. That will yield improvements, but it will take quite a long time for that to filter through to the system.

The only other way of improving the function of our emergency services is to create capacity within our existing system. That is hard, given the constraints we are under. It involves the doctors, nurses and so forth looking at everything they do and seeing if there are ways to make it more streamlined and efficient, and to see if they can learn from best practice not just internationally but also from a hospital up the road that might be doing certain things better. A very important point was made in the report about sharing best practice, and we entirely agree with it. We have looked around the country. It is not necessary to look outside the country to see what one can do well. Some location is doing something excellently. If we can nationalise existing best practice around the country, we would secure a major improvement in terms of releasing some capacity within the system.

That is one of the things on which the emergency medicine programme is focused. Best practice workshops have been held throughout the country where different emergency departments have outlined what they do well and where they could improve, so that information can be shared. This concept of ground-up improvement not just in the quality of care but in efficiency, use of resources and creating capacity is the way it has been done internationally where people have been successful in achieving this. It is not about central command and control, but about local and front-line workers optimising and improving the way they do their work. That is the solution. I believe we will secure improvements in the service from that work. We will get substantial improvements in creating capacity and if we get primary care chronic disease programmes implemented, there will be a significant improvement.

Dr. Philip Crowley

What Dr. White said is obviously correct. Another aspect of the work being done within the HSE is establishing a programme on prevention. We cannot talk about how we will manage chronic disease without talking about preventing it. The trends in terms of risk factor profile and an aging population suggest that whether we manage chronic disease in primary or secondary care, we are facing a significant increase in incidence rates of chronic disease which can only be managed by prevention. We are participating fully with the Department of Health's review of the public health role. I am a public health doctor. One of the programmes we are establishing is a prevention programme to ensure that all the programmes focus on prevention as well. That is an important point.

Dr. White referred to nationalising best practice. Take the example of Tallaght hospital. Last year it was on a par with Waterford in terms of best practice. There was virtually no waiting time at the accident and emergency department in Waterford. Last week, however, the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, voiced concerns about patient safety in Tallaght hospital. What is HIQA's interpretation of patient safety and what led it to think that patient safety is an issue? Where did it all go wrong in Tallaght in the past 12 months?

Dr. Philip Crowley

On patient safety, HIQA has not been explicit about what it is referring to, but if one considers the coroner's case that gave rise to the decision by HIQA to investigate issues of safety in Tallaght, it is the retention of patients on trolleys in the emergency department and adjoining areas that is the issue of concern.

Why would there be such a decline from 12 months ago when it was on a par with Waterford? Clearly, there is something wrong or something that was happening a year ago is not happening now.

Dr. Philip Crowley

I am not sure that the emergency department waiting times have deteriorated in Tallaght. It has been a problem for some time.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

Tallaght hospital has had a problem with its emergency department waiting times for all of 2010 and continuing into 2011. It has consistently had problems with emergency department waiting times.

On the whole issue of the efficiency of treatment, in 2009 the HSE introduced a six-hour target waiting time. How effective has that been and where is it at?

Ms Laverne McGuinness

A target waiting time of six hours was introduced but it has not been successful in so far as there are more breaches of the target than those achieving it. I will go through some of the figures for the average patient's wait per day in emergency departments for January to May. The number waiting six hours was about 44, the number waiting six to 12 hours was 42, the number waiting 12 to 24 hours was 53, and those waiting more than 24 hours was 11. In regard to the patient experience time, an issue which was raised earlier, and how many patients are seen who require to be admitted to our emergency departments within the six-hour period, the answer is 48.8% for the 17 hospitals which were reporting. When we take into account those who are seen and may not require admission, the percentage is higher at 67%. That is the position in regard to the six-hour target.

I wish to draw attention to page 53 of the report which deals with the wider hospital organisation and, in particular, the issue of discharge planning. It is clear from the table that discharges spike on Fridays. Why is that the case? Is it that consultants are block-booking beds for their elective patients and taking them in at the weekend to ensure procedures go ahead on a Monday? If admissions were more even, the work would be balanced throughout the week. When there is less pressure on bed capacity, why would discharges spike on a Friday?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Before I invite one of my colleagues to reply, I should say this is a very important issue in terms of our discussions with the consultants within the Croke Park agreement and in looking at the changes required to underpin the implementation of many of the recommendations of the acute medicine programme and the emergency department programme. We need a senior decision-making presence in our major acute hospital systems across seven days. Therefore, we need more significant cover at weekends to ensure the patient flow, admissions and discharges, is a seven-day event. Hospitals work 24 hours per day, seven days per week. Therefore we cannot confine the decision making to Monday to Friday. In many hospitals there are decision makers who come in and are present at weekends and people do structured sessions. One of the underpinnings of the implementation challenge around all the programmes of change is the need for much more significant cover. As I said in my introduction, we are appointing 14 new emergency medicine consultants and 34 new acute medicine consultants. In putting those consultants in, we need also to change the working arrangements for the full consultant teams in each of those hospitals. If we can achieve that, it will be a very significant underpinning of the implementation of the changes that are a blueprint within the programmes.

Where will those posts be located? How many have been filled and will the 14 be filled before the end of the year?

Dr. Barry White

They are all going through the process of being advertised and recruited this year.

How many posts have been filled at this point in time?

Dr. Barry White

There are only-----

Mr. Cathal Magee

I think it will be the late part of the year before they are in place. There is a process that has to take place. Each of the hospitals has indicative approval. They have to produce some business cases but the process is under way. All the hospitals have been notified. We are running a parallel process. We may advertise those posts.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Certainly it will be the late part of 2011 before they are in place.

So, none of the posts has been filled.

Dr. Barry White

Not at the moment. It is about improving the process as well so that many of the hospitals and the teams have to find ways of sorting out this particular issue. It is not that people are not working hard, it is just that there are multiple conflicting commitments on people. For example, if a consultant is in a hospital with 650 beds and is on call on a Saturday and Sunday, he or she will not be able to see 650 patients on a ward round. One of the issues for us, and Dr. Garry Courtney will speak to it, is a requirement for additional resources around those areas. They have occurred subsequent to the agreement being agreed with the hospitals to achieve this very specific objective. That is when the posts are-----

Mr. Cathal Magee

I ask Dr. Garry Courtney to comment on the seven-day cover.

Dr. Garry Courtney

That is an excellent point. The emergency demand on hospitals is stable over the whole week. It unbalances the whole system to have many discharges on a Friday and many admissions on a Monday. The system does not work. By putting in the acute medicine programme by having medical assessment units, there would be discharges by senior decision makers every day of the week and the medical assessment units would be turning back patients with the rapid diagnostics. The patients who are brought into the hospital must have a whole system approach. There will be a multidisciplinary team assessment. There will be daily ward rounds by senior medical decision makers. We encourage discharges every day of the week, including Saturday and Sunday, which is a fallow time, as identified in this report. We have been concentrating on the front door of the hospital emergency departments and the medical assessment units. The back door of the hospital is how we discharge patients. The most important meeting in a hospital is the multidisciplinary discharge meeting for the complex and frail elderly patients. They have to be put into the community in a proper way. That must happen seven days a week.

With regard to the consultants' appointments, all of them will pass through the consultant appointments advisory committee on 25 July, in two weeks time.

I thank the witnesses and the Chairman for his indulgence.

Before calling Deputy O'Donnell and the other speakers who have indicated, I want to say I have listened to the debate up to now in regard to the measurement of patient care and the measurement of activity within several of the hospitals mentioned in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The HSE has not come to this as new business. It has been in the business of delivering health care through the health boards for a long time. This debate is taking place against the backdrop of the debate which took place in the House last night, relative to Roscommon hospital. How was Roscommon hospital allowed develop to that level? We are talking about emergency departments, patient care and patient safety. If there are workshops on best practice and so on, and while I acknowledge there are many examples of good practice, St. Luke's in my constituency being one, and good management systems in place, surely certain things were happening at Roscommon hospital that gave the HSE a clear indication of problems down the road. Similarly, there was a problem at Tallaght hospital, where 60% of patients waited more than six hours, and at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda, where four out of five patients waited just as long. If beds and best practice were monitored and one knew what was happening in the delivery of health care, why was this allowed to happen? Relative to that, the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, is on the scene. Each time the HSE develops a new programme or a new medicine, a new standard must be reached. Surely HIQA would have given the HSE some indications that certain things were going wrong in certain departments of certain hospitals. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report from 2008, which was presented in 2009, clearly indicated that something was amiss in these hospitals. Why does it take so long? It is almost as if these crises and emergencies happened overnight when, in fact, the HSE is paid to manage the service. Will the HSE give the committee a general outline as to how it intends to respond to HIQA? How many more emergency departments or hospitals may be under threat because of the standards that will be applied?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Perhaps I can comment, although I am new to the system having been appointed last August. The configuration of our acute hospital system has been debated and has been controversial for many years. I understand there was a hospital commission report in the 1930s. There was also the Fitzgerald report in 1968, which was a hugely important blueprint for our acute hospital system. It argued for a particular configuration of our acute system, but did not get to implement it in the manner planned. The Hanly report also dealt with all of these issues.

Health is an area where there must be significant stakeholder commitment in order to effect the changes required. In recent years, since being set up, the HSE has gone about hospital configuration processes in each of the key regions. Changes have taken place in Ennis, Nenagh, Monaghan and Dundalk, which have regard to the changes suggested by the clinical evidence with regard to the clinical settings appropriate to patients and in what circumstances. This was brought to a head in the HIQA report on Ennis, which made clear recommendations around the type of care appropriate for a small hospital and express recommendations on 24-hour, seven days a week emergency services. This was followed by a further report on Mallow in April 2010 which was extremely critical of the follow through and implementation of the Ennis recommendations.

We all share a challenge in getting all of the stakeholders - the community, the public representatives, the local clinicians and the GP community - to come on board to implement the changes that all would agree are required. What has happened in the past 18 months is that we have approached this in a slightly different way. We have put a huge investment of capability, costs and leadership into blueprinting our national clinical programmes, which are defining what is good clinical practice in particular settings and what is appropriate for particular patients. That has been expressed in many detailed reports and has the support and engagement of all the key clinical groups, therapists, nursing leads and clinicians. We are in the process of seeking to implement that. We are at an early stage of trying to implement the reconfiguration of our acute hospital system to deal with the core issue of patient safety and to ensure patients are in the appropriate setting for their need. This does not mean the demise of smaller hospitals. What is clearly emerging from the analysis of the programmes is that smaller hospitals have a huge role to play in our health system. They have the infrastructure and the resources to be a critical part of the hospital network. It is not about closing these hospitals or about reducing their importance in our health system, but about changing the nature of the health care service they provide, and that is appropriate.

We have a situation in the west where many patients in the Galway hospitals could be more appropriately treated in hospitals like Roscommon hospital. Equally, we have had situations where people are admitted to Roscommon hospital whom it would be more appropriate to admit to a Galway hospital. The same is true of Loughlinstown hospital and St. Vincent's. Therefore, it is not a question of closing one and building up the other, but of using the infrastructure and capabilities in a fit-for-purpose way to enhance the quality and range of services that can be provided locally. There is no reason diagnostic services, for example, cannot be provided locally, nor why outreach services, outpatient services, rehabilitation care and so on cannot be provided locally. It is in this area that political representatives and communities must help to contribute to a better understanding of the issues. People do not really understand the issues, but if they hear the clinical teams speak to the agenda, we will get a different outcome. It is significant that our clinical leaders are beginning to engage in the debate, to take ownership of it and to face up to the tough challenges in the media and with staff in our hospitals. That is beginning to change the view of the various stakeholders. We also have the regulator, who is taking a best practice approach and requiring the system to change.

People here will have their own views on why we are here. I think it is a collective issue and not an issue simply for the health system. The community needs to decide whether we want a good health care system, whether we understand what that means and whether we can support each other to execute that. That is what is required. Given the impact on resources and the fact that this year we will operate with €1 billion less, members will understand that it is incumbent on us to try at least to put a quality health care system in place. This point is so important that I will ask Dr. Philip Crowley, who has direct responsibility for patient safety on our team, to comment.

Dr. Philip Crowley

The regulator has made very clear recommendations. I share the committee's frustration that recommendations made some time ago have not been fully implemented. The appendix sets out the degree to which the recommendations are now being addressed, one hopes effectively. It is not about changing the nature of hospitals, but about ensuring that patients with complex needs go to the place where those needs will best be met. If that means that people characterise that as downgrading a hospital or removing a service, that is an unfortunate way of framing it, because that is not the intention. The intention is that patients with complex needs will go to major centres. The impact of making those kinds of changes on smaller hospitals is not as great as those who campaign to retain services believe it is. If we look, for example, at the patient profile in most of these hospitals, we see that most of the patients already migrate to the correct place for the complexity of care they need if they have had a stroke, an acute heart attack or major trauma, and most of the protocols that need to be put in place are now largely in place. I share the sentiment of the question and we are striving to ensure the safety issues highlighted in both of the HIQA reports are adequately addressed in our smaller hospitals.

The question is whether hospitals generally, big or small, will be able to comply with the new conditions imposed on them by HIQA. As manager of the health service, has the HSE a list of the hospitals it feels will meet the new standards and of those that will not? What will be required to be done with those hospitals that will not meet the standards? What steps are being taken to carry out the necessary changes within those hospitals, based on the best practice that already exists in some hospitals? What is the HSE doing about the situation in order that we do not have crises in different hospitals?

To return to the question I already asked, why is it that the likes of Tallaght and Roscommon hospitals have become big national issues and why are problems not flagged adequately for the issues to be addressed to prevent them from becoming crisis issues? I will not labour the point because other members also wish to comment, but these questions are important for the patients and communities throughout the country we serve.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Before asking Dr. Philip Crowley to respond again, I will respond to that. We have set out in appendix 2 an outline of the approach that is being taken to the implementation of the recommendations of the Ennis and Mallow reports and the implications they have for smaller hospitals. We have also set out ten such hospitals that are covered within the impact of the outcome of those recommendations. Dr. Crowley has given a high level status report in the document about where we stand on each of those hospitals. Each hospital must be looked at in its own circumstances. We must consider the network it is in, the volumes and the protocols in place. That is under way currently. We have put a process in place around the management and implementation of the recommendations of the two HIQA reports. We cannot compromise on the issue of patient safety. Therefore, it is change for safety, not change for downgrading.

Dr. Crowley will update the committee on the current status of the approach and implementation.

Dr. Philip Crowley

I established this directorate in the HSE as of January this year. One of the things we have done is put an agreed process in place as to how we receive reports. We have been criticised in the past for receiving reports and not implementing them in a systematic way.

On the HIQA report on Mallow, we now have an agreed implementation process and senior clinical leads from the clinical programme are participating. They are meeting now. This is to ensure we analyse the recommendations and apply them in a sensible way to the hospitals in question. We need to apply them in such a way as to ensure the appropriate patients are dealt with in the appropriate place.

The Chairman's question also refers to the forthcoming HIQA national standards for safer and better health care. I understand they are currently with the Minister for approval. I participated on behalf of the Department of Health, where I used to work, on the body which helped to draw up the standards which have now been submitted for consultation and are in a final form. I worked very closely with HIQA and it is my understanding there is no intention that the standards would used to close down hospitals.

If we address the issues raised in the Ennis and Mallow reports in a comprehensive way, those hospitals would then be in a good position to comply with the standards because the major risks have already been identified for them. The standards are not being seen as some kind of a stick with which to beat up the hospital system, so to speak, but rather a set of quality and safety goals to which we need to aspire and against which we need to demonstrate progress. My directorate will support hospitals in doing that.

The standards will also apply outside hospitals to community-based care and primary care. We will work with the health system to ensure it is supported in complying with the standards. I welcome the standards. We will use them to continually drive improvements in the health service.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Roscommon is emerging as an issue because of this work and not for any other reason. It is emerging because we have examined its circumstances benchmarked against what we consider to be acceptable clinical practice and what is appropriate as recommended by HIQA. It is not emerging for any other reason. That process has been under way over the past five or six months.

Tallaght is a separate issue. There is a trolley problem there and that is where the work of the acute medicine and emergency programme is targeted. There was an adverse incident with a patient which created the circumstances in which HIQA decided to conduct an investigation. The Tallaght issue is very different from the Roscommon issue. It is important to understand that Roscommon has emerged because of the work under way within the HSE to implement the best practice requirements for smaller hospitals and make sure that the care provided is appropriate to the setting. It is not arising for any other reason.

The questions may sound negative and probing, but getting information and explanations into the public domain to allay fears is part of the process.

I welcome Mr. Magee and his colleagues. I have a couple of points. I want to refer to Mr. Magee's statement. He is probably aware that next Monday is a huge day for accident and emergency departments in terms of non-consultant hospital doctors. The Mid-Western Regional Hospital in Limerick is in my constituency. I would like an up-to-date position on non-consultant hospital doctors. I note in the appendix the appointment process for such doctors. What number of them is the HSE required to have in place by 11 July? I cannot get the information from the presentation.

I note that in round one there was a 22% take-up, and of the 948 doctors interviewed, 208 took up posts. It strikes me as a low figure. Surely it should have flagged that there was a problem. In some cases the public heard about the problem with non-consultant hospital doctors a few weeks before 11 July. We need an explanation as to why this situation arose. The public are entitled to know what happened. I note in the other rounds that the numbers diminished. This appears to have been an ongoing problem over recent years. The HSE has a centralised system.

I ask Mr. Magee to explain the process. Why was this announced a couple of weeks before 11 July? The Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill is currently before the Dáil. Does he believe it will ease the situation? Why was the issue not examined a number of months ago when there was a problem with the first round? I ask him to address that point.

On the special delivery unit, is Dr. Martin Connor present today?

Mr. Cathal Magee

He is not.

It would have been worthwhile for him to attend. We are discussing accident and emergency departments and reducing trolley waiting times. He is a member of the board of the HSE. It would be useful to get an update on the position. I note from the presentation that, interestingly, the number of hours patients are waiting in accident and emergency has reduced from 6.2 to 6.1 hours, yet the average person waiting in an emergency department for more than 12 hours has increased by 140% since 2010, from 44 per day to 106 in April. Clearly, there are major problems in that area. I ask Mr. Magee to address those points.

The situation regarding non-consultant hospital doctors appears to be an administrative matter. The Chairman made some points. Issues appear to arise overnight. There was an issue with non-consultant hospital doctors for months. From a management viewpoint we need to know why it arose. It is not good enough that we are on the brink at this moment. I would like an assurance that the required numbers of doctors will be put in place over the next few weeks. I note an assurance from the HSE that the accident and emergency services in my local hospital will be available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I ask Mr. Magee to address the issue.

Mr. Lynch is here to discuss the special delivery unit.

I was just making a general observation.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Dr. Connor is not in the country and could not attend the meeting. It would have been useful to have him here and he will be available for a future meeting.

Witnesses must have been aware of the number of non-consultant hospital doctors who needed to be replaced because of the change in rotation on 11 July.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes.

How many are needed? I ask Mr. Magee to go through the process and explain why we are at this point.

Mr. Cathal Magee

By way of introduction, before I ask Mr. Seán McGrath, the HR director, to support the details that have already been circulated, our health system is dependent on significant numbers of non-national non-consultant hospital doctors. That has been the experience in the system for many years. Many of the doctors we train go abroad. There are many significant positive aspects to that. They come back with a lot of international best practice and clinical experience. It means we are heavily dependent on the recruitment of non-consultant hospital doctors, NCHDs. A shortage emerged in the last couple of years. It is not something that just happened this year. There has been evidence in recent years that the supply of non-consultant hospital doctors has contracted dramatically internationally. From a point where there were too many and recruitment was demand led, it has now reached a point where there are supply problems.

Work is under way on international recruitment since December to try to anticipate and fill vacancies. Mr. Seán McGrath will talk about recruitment outside of Europe. We also had problems in January. This is not a new problem.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Recruitment campaigns took place in India and Pakistan in March of this year.

The current situation began with approximately 450 vacancies in the non-training posts that we are having difficulty filling. Yesterday, we were down to 158 vacancies. The legislation going through the Dáil will be very important in allowing the grade of supervisory registration to facilitate the intake of these non-consultant hospital doctors from Pakistan and India. This will also provide us with a foundation. We have targeted more than 220 non-consultant hospital doctors who have visas and are interested in accepting offers of employment. Of them, 80 are due to come this week. We hope to have significantly more. They will go into the new assessment process that has been put in place by the Medical Council, working with the colleges and the medical schools. Once these doctors are properly registered in the supervisory registered way they will be present in our system for two years. In the medium term, that will create a foundation with which to address the longer term strategic problem of how we resource our non-consultant hospital doctors, what resources are required and where will they come from, what changes must we make in our career pathways and do we understand the dynamics of this market in attracting doctors. The next couple of weeks will be hugely important in making sure the intake of non-consultant hospital doctors from India and Pakistan goes through the registration process and can be assigned to hospitals where there are currently gaps. The gaps caused by the current 158 vacancies are not much greater than those that existed this time last year or in early January. The problem is now more manageable. We are confident that a solution will emerge that will give us a foundation for dealing with this problem in a structured way.

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Seán McGrath, to give more detail on this.

Is this the first year recruitment was centralised?

Mr. Seán McGrath

That is correct. As part of our service plan, we decided to centralise recruitment. With our dwindling supply of junior doctors, in Ireland and internationally, a range of hospitals and settings were recruiting themselves. To support them in that and to ensure that we can distribute doctors where they are required, we centralised that activity in January of this year. This is the first time we have centralised recruitment. It gives us more flexibility locally, regionally and nationally. We can see where the deficiencies and shortages are and have targeted specialist campaigns, as we have done in India and Pakistan, to fill vacancies in these areas.

When was the HSE aware that it had a major problem with non-consultant hospital doctors? The job of the HSE is to manage the operation of the health services on a day-to-day-basis. It often seems to the public that a problem arises overnight. We are all here to serve the public. When did the HSE know there was a major problem with the recruitment of non-consultant hospital doctors?

Mr. Seán McGrath

Since 2008, when the Medical Practitioners Act 2007 came into effect.

When in the current year?

Mr. Seán McGrath

The issue has been ongoing for the past 12 to 18 months. It did not come up overnight. This time last year, we had significant vacancy issues when we were trying to recruit. We have had a range of initiatives in the last 12 to 18 months. This is not a new issue, in the health service or in the institutions where these doctors are finding vacancies themselves. Late last year, we decided to go after NCHDs outside the EU and we set up the recruitment campaign in India and Pakistan, where there is a rich vein which can give us a longer term solution rather than a short-term one. This will crystalise in doctors coming from these countries in the coming days.

The crisis in the recruitment of non-consultant hospital doctors for accident and emergency departments came into the public domain two or three weeks ago. Surely there is an internal flagging system that would indicate a need for change in recruitment, with regard to examinations and so forth. Why are we having to bring legislation through the Oireachtas days before the 11 July?

Mr. Seán McGrath

We knew this was an issue six or seven months ago. We had to centralise recruitment to get more visibility earlier. We needed to go outside the EU for doctors. We did both those things. We knew last year this issue was creeping up on us. We knew it in January because of the shortage we experienced. We have put in different strategies to address that.

Would the HSE ever have reached the target without the change in legislation?

Mr. Seán McGrath

Not the way it was configured.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Registration of doctors and the process of registration is a matter for the Medical Council, which is a separate statutory authority. The council governs the process of registration. The HSE can express a view and have dialogue but we have no role in medical registration. There are significant complexities and issues. I had recent meetings with the chairman and CEO of the Medical Council. There has been a huge amount of dialogue and collaboration between the colleges, the medical schools, the Medical Council and the HSE to work through a solution to this problem.

Could I ask Dr. Crowley to comment so that there is an understanding of the registration process? It is not in the gift of Mr. Seán McGrath to decide a different way could be put in place.

I applaud the Minister for his prompt action when the issue was brought to his attention. He responded extremely promptly when his guidance and support were needed and when legislation was required. It would also be important for Dr. Garry Courtney to speak about the scale of the challenge of the recruitment process in which we have been involved.

Dr. Philip Crowley

I was a NCHD at a time when one had to compete vigorously to get on to training schemes and to get into positions around the country. I may be showing my age.

Dr. Crowley is holding up well.

Dr. Philip Crowley

I thank the Deputy. It is dismaying that significant numbers of our newly-qualified doctors are voting with their feet. I was very involved with NCHDs over a number of years and I feel an absolute necessity to sit down and talk to our graduates and listen to them. We intend to do that. We must try to understand what it is about the career structure and other aspects of working in Ireland that seem to lead a greater number than before to travel to work in other places.

Deputy O'Donnell asked about timing and finding things out very late. We have been working on this issue for quite some time. The situation is very dynamic. People apply for jobs and then decline them or they apply for more than one job. The centralisation process is attempting to get an overview and if people are moving from one job application to another to have a view of that. The provision of a supervised temporary registration is something that will allow us to compete on a more equal basis for whatever NCHDs are available, both nationally and, in particular, internationally. I welcome this provision as it is a safer mechanism for registering doctors.

Dr. Garry Courtney

Last November I was asked by Dr. Barry White to look at setting up an international group in India and Pakistan. We were aware of the issues at that time which arose initially in Dublin north east and spread rapidly throughout the country. Dr. Crowley has mentioned flows and it is incredibly dynamic. It used to be steady. We sent some doctors out for training overseas and they came back. It actually worked quite well. Now there are far too many doctors leaving and not enough coming in. The former Medical Practitioners Act which is being amended now, had raised the bar to a certain standard and made it a little difficult for doctors to come here and to be registered. It is complex and difficult. We set up four trips to India and Pakistan and these were totally supported by the HSE. We brought 40 Irish consultants and some Indian and Pakistani consultants over there, supported by HSE staff. We achieved about 5,000 applications and we made a strict short list to 800. We interviewed 600 in Islamabad and in Mumbai, in a very clean operation. We have offered posts to about 250 applicants. A few minutes ago I received a text to say that 196 visa applications have been achieved. The Minister for Health and the Department have been very helpful but also the Department of Justice and Equality and the immigration and naturalisation service have been extremely helpful in expediting these applications. The President is expected to sign the Bill on Sunday, presuming it goes through the Houses of the Oireachtas. There is a statutory period of one week for consultation. We believe we will be able to run the new assessments for these doctors to the very highest modern standards in the week commencing 18 July and that these doctors of very high quality and in sufficient numbers will be available in Limerick and everywhere else in the country, from 25 July.

The shortfall is currently 150. How many of those posts will be filled by 25 July?

Dr. Garry Courtney

I can tell the Deputy we have 196 visa applications. Obviously we need to see the people arriving at Dublin Airport, of whom 51 will be here by the end of the week and more than 100 by the following week. We have the flight details. This is an incredibly complex organisational undertaking. We have gone 6,000 miles away to persuade highly qualified doctors, trained in the British system. There are different types of health care. Ireland, England, Canada and Australia, have a British system of health care. Previously we had been relying on eastern European doctors. There is nothing wrong with eastern European doctors but it is a different type of education and it is more difficult for them to fit in. There are also some language difficulties.

I would like the committee to understand that it is frustrating for us to have to go through the hurdles. I am a shop floor doctor and I need help but we are very confident that by 25 July, we will have sufficient doctors on the ground.

Mr. Fergal Lynch

It might be helpful if I updated the committee with regard to the special delivery unit. This unit will be attached to the Department of Health. Dr. Connor will report to the Minister. The role of the special delivery unit, SDU, is essentially to unblock the obstacles stopping patients from being seen and treated quickly. The four priority areas which, so far, will be the focus of the special delivery unit are, the emergency department area which is a key focus and concern, particularly where admission waiting times have been unacceptably long in a number of hospitals; the second area is inpatient waiting times which have been rising recently, it must be acknowledged; the third area will be outpatient waiting times where we are all conscious of the issue of GP referral and speed of GP referral to an appropriate outpatient clinic with a consultant; and the fourth area is access to diagnostics.

Dr. Connor started his work on 1 June and has been working intensively since that time to put the process in place and I think he has been making some progress thus far. At this early stage, his focus in the special delivery unit will initially be on capacity planning for winter. There was considerable concern about emergency department performance in a number of areas last winter, particularly over the Christmas-new year period. His first priority will be to ensure we have sufficient capacity planning in place for the winter to come.

The second area on which he will be working intensively with the HSE and the clinical programmes will be with regard to IT. Questions were asked earlier about data, data analysis and particularly the patient experience time process. He will work closely with the HSE in order to put that in place, in other words, moving away from the standard trolley count figures to a full 24, time in, time out process which is essentially what we have been talking about. He will work intensively with selected hospitals, particularly those which have special difficulties. This is a proactive but a very co-operative process which he sees as working with the HSE and specifically with the clinical programmes, towards that end. He has spoken, for example, of intensive weekly performance meetings as required with individual hospitals. He will have bed management networks established in conjunction with the HSE. There will be intensive support on the ground from Dr. Connor and his colleagues. Ultimately, he will have local capacity plans signed off for each of the hospitals, particularly the ones with problems in this area. As required, he will move to daily pressure monitoring, particularly as we approach the November-December Christmas period.

He will work very intensively with the HSE on a co-operative, positive basis. He has also been asked by the Minister to have proposals for putting the special delivery unit on a formal footing in the next couple of months and he is on track to do so. This is my update of the current position as regards the special delivery unit, SDU.

In response to Mr. Magee's general commentary I agree with him about the need for safety and for the need for clinicians to articulate this publicly. However, it is very important for Mr. Magee, as the chief executive of the HSE, to understand that the taxpaying public understand full well the necessity for safety and standards. They also understand the need for access to service as a core component, not only for their peace of mind but also as being a core component of delivery of quality care. The debate about Roscommon hospital and the other rural hospitals is centred on that reality, which is completely disregarded by the HSE, in my view.

I wish to ask about Roscommon hospital in particular. Figures of relative mortality rates for cardiac patients were given to the House in the course of this week. We were given figures of 21.3% for patients admitted to Roscommon hospital as against 5.8% for patients admitted to University College Hospital Galway. Can Mr. Magee or a member of his team verify that those figures are accurate?

Mr. Cathal Magee

I will ask Dr. Crowley to comment.

Dr. Philip Crowley

We understand those figures are drawn from HIPE, from the HIPE data, the hospital inpatient inquiry data. People have questioned the accuracy of HIPE at times but, by and large, there seems to be a fairly significant discrepancy in mortality rates that is unlikely to be explicable by differences in how patients are coded.

Is this information published?

Dr. Philip Crowley

It is a Department of Health report. I do not believe it is published.

Mr. Fergal Lynch

The data are not published yet. It is part of a report currently in preparation. I understand it is being finalised at the moment and should be ready for publication shortly.

I presume that data will form part of the basis for the HSE assessments of Roscommon hospital and decisions taken in respect of that hospital.

Mr. Cathal Magee

No, that is not the case.

Okay. Looking at the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, we have had a look at this table, figure 2.2. It would not lift one's heart with regard to the supposed safety of any of the emergency departments in rural Ireland or anywhere else. It is disturbing that Mr. Magee comes to this meeting today without comparable data to track those measures as taken by the Comptroller and Auditor General. In closing the accident and emergency services in smaller hospitals, Mr. Magee's argument is that it is safer to transfer patients to larger hospitals. For instance, University College Hospital Galway does not come out in any glowing sense in this report. What action has the HSE taken to ensure hospitals have the capacity to take on board additional patients?

Mr. Cathal Magee

We agree that access to services is one of the greatest challenges in the health system. Will the Deputy repeat her question regarding Roscommon hospital?

Patients will no longer have access to accident and emergency services at Roscommon hospital and will instead have to travel to Galway University Hospital. The available figures suggest the latter is not in a state of preparedness to receive additional patients given that it is struggling to cope with existing numbers.

Mr. Cathal Magee

One of the considerations in making decisions on which services are appropriate to which setting is the capacity of a particular regional centre to cope with demand. That is factored into considerations and is documented in our report. In some locations we have to look at capacity considerations arising from reconfiguration and weigh up various factors. We are confident there is no cause for concern regarding capacity at Galway University Hospital. We do not expect the volumes of patients flowing through to Galway from Roscommon to impact adversely on the former. However, we recognise that Galway University Hospital faces significant challenges, as do all accident and emergency departments.

My point is that the accident and emergency unit at Galway is, according to the report furnished to us, already struggling in terms of decision-making capacity, speciality access and bed waiting times, in common with most other accident and emergency services. It does not look like a facility fit to take additional pressure but rather like a facility in need perhaps of better management and some reconfiguration and undoubtedly in need of more resources. Unless Mr. Magee can tell me differently, I cannot countenance how it is fit to take more patients.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Members should bear in mind that the catchment area for Roscommon is served not only by Galway University Hospital but also by hospitals at Castlebar, Sligo, Mullingar and Ballinasloe. In other words, the flow from Roscommon will not all be into the regional hospital in Galway. My colleague, Dr. Philip Crowley, might comment on that.

Dr. Philip Crowley

We are all agreed that access is critical. There is a range of elements to access, including access in general to outpatient services. This is the key access issue in Ireland, rather than geographical access, and there are safety and quality elements to it. There is no point in having a quality service if patients cannot access it.

In regard to Roscommon and Galway hospitals, it is impossible to compare the two because they are completely different operations. Galway University Hospital's accident and emergency department is run by three emergency medicine specialists, one of whom spends one day a week in Roscommon. They support the proposed change in regard to the complexity of care whereby more complex cases will go to Galway. Members should note that we are not talking about large numbers, with hospital data indicating that two thirds of Roscommon residents already access their hospital care outside the county.

This is relevant in the context of the point the Deputy rightly made that one cannot transfer services to a facility which is not ready to receive them. The data show that 1,000 day cases at Galway University Hospital last year involved Roscommon residents. These cases should be done in Roscommon and we expect the rate of day case surgery at Roscommon to increase, with operating theatres being mobilised to achieve that. That will bring appropriate care for patients closer to their home. The proposal for Roscommon hospital will make services safer. I do not expect it to result in the type of disruption predicted by those who are upset about the decision. We will find when the dust settles that no harm has been done.

Geographical access is critical for people living in rural areas, particularly in respect of accident and emergency services. That is the key concern; it is not that people expect a centre of excellence on the doorstep of every homestead. However, the issue of geographical access has been absolutely disregarded by the HSE, not only in respect of Roscommon but also in the case of other small hospitals. The delegates are not in a position to give a cast iron guarantee that no ill effects will arise from this decision. They are not in possession of a crystal ball to allow them to offer an absolute assurance that it will not have an effect in respect of patient safety. Citizens are aware of that.

I note that Sligo General Hospital fared slightly better than Galway University Hospital, but it still merits a black mark in respect of decision-making capacity and bed waiting times. All accident and emergency departments in the region are under tremendous pressure. However, rather than addressing this in any realistic way, the HSE has taken a decision to shut down some of those facilities. Instead of tackling the problems that exist services are being removed. The bottom line is that Roscommon's accident and emergency service is being removed; there is no sugar coating that. I question the rationality of what is being done. It makes no sense to take services away from one location and consequently to pile increased pressure on services which, according to the report to which I referred and with all due respect to the limited data Mr. Magee provided in the appendices, are still struggling. It looks like a recipe for further failure and disappointments for the HSE and more particularly for the public.

Mr. Cathal Magee

The issue is patient safety. I refer the Deputy to the 2009 HIQA report on Ennis hospital which mandated the HSE to undertake a strategic review of the configuration of emergency care services, with a view to devising a prioritised programme of service development aimed at consolidating emergency services in regional centres, with smaller hospitals having a similar activity profile to the mid-western hospital in Ennis, which was redesignated for minor injuries. In other words, the regulator with responsibility for quality and safety requires us to implement the appropriate configuration of services consistent with good clinical standards. The approach taken by HIQA is also consistent with the analysis and advice of our clinical directors. There is significant consistency between our national programme needs and our clinical directors in regard to what constitutes the most appropriate setting for care. That consensus aligns with HIQA recommendations, which we are obliged to implement.

The HSE seeks to implement best practice, as recommended by clinicians and required by our regulator. Rather than trying to take away services, we are seeking to do that in a way which enhances health care for people in Roscommon. I invite Mr. Cathal O'Donnell, medical director of our ambulance service and an emergency department consultant, to comment on the transfer arrangements between locations for patients who need emergency care.

Mr. Cathal O’Donnell

In terms of the ambulance service, it is important to remember that if a patient in Roscommon or any other area has an emergency medical problem or injury, treatment does not start when he or she arrives at a hospital but rather when the ambulance arrives and the paramedic assesses the patient. We have made a significant investment in the ambulance service in recent years, in the context of the fleet of vehicles and in training personnel with regard to the type interventions they can make. Access to hospitals is part of it but access to the emergency services is probably as important. Treatment begins the moment a paramedic arrives at a patient's side.

The second point I would make is that we are putting in place a significantly enhanced ambulance service resource from 8 a.m. on Monday next at Roscommon. This will include an extra ambulance at night, every night. In addition, 24 hours per day, seven days per week an advanced paramedic response car is on call. Our advanced paramedics are highly skilled, very well trained and highly motivated people who can perform significant, high-level, life-saving interventions for patients. We will also enchance the availability of our existing ambulance resources during the day. The people of Roscommon will, therefore, have access to a significantly enhanced ambulance service and this will commence operation at 8 a.m. on Monday, 11 July next.

The third point - Mr. Magee already referred to it - is that Roscommon is ringed by hospitals. Depending on where one lives in the county one will live close to a hospital. A perception has arisen in recent days that all patients from County Roscommon will go to the hospital in Galway. That is not the case. They will go to their nearest hospital. When they arrive, our staff will assess them, begin their treatment and then transfer to the nearest hospital appropriate to their medical needs.

I would not question the proficiency or commitment of any of the medical or paramedic staff to whom Dr. O'Donnell refers. I have set out a counter-analysis in respect of the strategy being adopted which is wrong-headed in nature and which will run into difficulties. The people of Roscommon and beyond are fully aware of that fact.

The documentation submitted to the committee indicates that the HSE envisages that a centre for urgent cases will be in place at Mallow General Hospital from November 2011. Will Mr. Magee indicate what this will mean in the context of the services provided at the hospital? In the context of manner in which the HSE has dealt with the accident and emergency services at Roscommon, will he indicate the other hospitals with which it is taking the same approach?

Mr. Cathal Magee

I will ask Dr. Crowley to comment on the process of implementing the recommendations put forward by HIQA and the approach that was taken. Obviously, every situation is different. A hospital may operate in a different network, it may have different volumes and its baseline of services may be very different.

What is the position regarding Mallow?

Mr. Cathal Magee

I will ask Dr. Crowley to comment on that.

Dr. Philip Crowley

As the Deputy is aware, Mallow was the subject of a specific investigation by the Health Information and Quality Authority. During the period of the investigation the authority found that a level of cover which mitigated the risk of patients who became critically ill overnight being adequately managed was arrived at. The plan in respect of Mallow continues to evolve. We do not currently believe there are major risks there. However, there are plans to integrate it more closely with Cork University Hospital. It is important to state that in general there are particular issues which need to be addressed in the context of smaller hospitals.

I have no intention of being rude but Dr. Crowley stated that he envisages greater integration involving Mallow General Hospital and Cork University Hospital.

Dr. Philip Crowley

Yes.

What does that mean for Mallow General Hospital and the services there?

Dr. Philip Crowley

It means they will be better integrated. The consultants there will be integrated with their colleagues in Cork so there will be a better service and training environment in which they can operate.

What will be the position in the context of accident and emergency services?

Dr. Una Geary

I will address that matter if the Deputy does not object. As part of the strategy for emergency care, the emergency medicine programme is developing the concept of emergency care networks. In the Cork context, what this involves is a situation where a large regional centre is closely networked with its surrounding satellite units. It would be networked in terms of clinical governance and clinical supervision and there would be a rotation of staff to the centre for training and continuous professional development.

A key element of the emergency care network would be the ambulance service. We will develop systems for greater integration between the ambulance service and each unit in the network. We are of the view that all services should be considered on a network basis. This ties in with the Deputy's earlier point regarding geographical access. As much care as can be delivered locally should be delivered locally. However, this must be safe, high-quality care. At the same time, it is important that the small number of patients requiring high-complexity, high-acuity care are quickly transported to the centre where they can receive it, without being obliged to stop off at units which cannot deliver the quality of care these people require when they need it. Mallow-Cork University Hospital is a clear network.

I accept that. We sometimes discuss safety as if it is some type of holy grail. It is a given that any health service in the State is safe. I do not believe we should clap ourselves on the back or imagine that something being safe is a particular achievement. Is it the case that, under the scheme as envisaged, the current level of accident and emergency services on offer at Mallow will change, be reduced or reconfigured? That is clearly the implication, is it not?

Mr. Cathal Magee

In the context of Mallow, a huge amount of work - led by Professor John Higgins - has been done on setting out a reconfiguration roadmap for all acute hospital services in Cork and Kerry. There is a significant report - it has been published and is available - which maps out, in considerable detail, the future service configuration for all of the hospitals within that network. The process within that reconfiguration project has been very consultative and collaborative in nature. A great deal of work has been done with all of the clinicians within each of the hospital settings and there has been significant engagement with the community. In Cork and Kerry, there is a voluntary as well as a statutory system. Both systems have come together in agreeing and signing up to a very detailed roadmap. That is the process of implementation that is under way through the regional director of operations, RDO, HSE south.

The future service roadmap for Mallow has been pretty well mapped out. There is good alignment among the clinical community and staff at Mallow General Hospital in the context of understanding the roadmap to which they are working. That was reinforced with the publication of the HIQA report on Mallow General Hospital. In that sense, we are proceeding with a very steady, planned programme of change within Cork and Kerry - in which Mallow is involved - which is understood, for which there is a great deal of support and which is being implemented on perhaps a more phased basis.

My understanding from the documentation is that the change in question will be the same kind of change as that envisaged for Roscommon. In other words, an urgent care centre in lieu of the current accident and emergency department.

Mr. Cathal Magee

The direction of travel is clearly set out in the roadmap. I do not believe there is any argument or debate about that.

I am stating that what I have outlined is my understanding and I am asking Mr. Magee to confirm it. Am I correct in my understanding?

Mr. Cathal Magee

In the context of these issues, we are not prejudging the local development of solutions or the timing and phasing of the implementation of change. We have a very large system and we have management teams, clinical directors and hospitals which have to take responsibility for the management of the change process. Our responsibility at national level and Dr. Crowley's responsibility, as lead director on patient quality and safety, is to ensure that the implementation process operates in accordance with the best clinical standards that have been developed nationally and with the requirements of the regulator, HIQA. However, we leave it to local authorities to decide on timing and other considerations.

Mr. Magee will understand that my responsibility is to question our guests on these matters.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes.

The HSE has circulated documentation which states that an urgent care centre will be in place at Mallow from November 2011. This is information Mr. Magee has offered-----

The Deputy's question is reasonable and should be answered directly.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes. The documentation says what it says.

So the scenario that will apply will be similar to that which obtains in Roscommon.

Mr. Cathal Magee

It would be helpful if I were to ask Dr. Geary to share with the committee and clarify for it the hierarchy and structure of emergency medicine across the different levels.

With respect, that information is not needed for Mr. Magee to answer the question. I will put the question to him again. What is envisaged for Roscommon County Hospital is that the accident and emergency service, as we know it, will cease and that an urgent care centre will be in place. What I read from the documentation in front of me is that the same scenario is envisaged for Mallow. I want Mr. Magee to tell me if I am correct in that assumption?

Mr. Cathal Magee

What is stated in the document is the formal situation. There is a process of change under way. Mallow, given its size and scale, would be appropriate in terms of having an urgent care centre.

As opposed to the accident and emergency service it currently has?

Mr. Cathal Magee

I would ask Dr. Una Geary to clarify what we mean by an emergency department.

I understand that the network-----

Before Dr. Geary answers that question, I point out that Deputy McDonald has asked a straightforward question and it would be helpful to the committee if she was given a straightforward answer. That is fair. We have had a reasonable exchange up to now and the question that has been put should be answered directly and then Mr. Magee can dress it up or give further information thereafter.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I confirm what we have set out in our documentation to the committee, namely, that an urgent care centre will be in place from November 2011 and a medical assessment unit will be in place. This is consistent with the reconfiguration roadmap that was published almost more than a year ago and that has the support and buy in of the local hospital networks and all their individual components. The process of implementation-----

It is also consistent with what happened in Roscommon. I am conscious that I have probably used my allocated quota of time in this exchange.

Deputy Harris is waiting to speak.

My apologies to the Deputy. It has been clear, as this reconfiguration agenda has rolled out, that whatever level of buy-in Mr. Magee may have, he does not have the buy-in to this from local communities in many of these cases whose members ultimately are the users of these services. They pay for these services and they take it for granted that those services must be safe. In any event, I thank Mr. Magee for his answers.

Before I call Deputy Harris, I have a question for Mr. Magee regarding figure 2.2 on page 22. That model was set down by the Comptroller and Auditor General in terms of gathering this information in 2008. I again ask Mr. Magee for a straight answer to this question. In the period from 2008 to the time of this meeting, did he, separately from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, carry out a similar analysis?

Mr. Cathal Magee

No.

The template was set down by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Given that this was carried out in 2008 and while Mr. Magee has given explanations and so on, it would have been helpful to the committee in the course of this exchange to have had a similar table setting out the current state of affairs. We are trying to examine a report delivered in 2009 based on 2008 statistics and it is a very good report in terms of the outcomes from each of these emergency departments. It would help members if information setting out the exact position today was provided in a similar way to enable us to make the types of comparisons Deputy McDonald was attempting to do in the course of the exchange. In terms of other reports that will be examined by this committee in the future, Mr. Magee should take the initiative and carry out a certain level of analysis to enable us to examine such analysis beyond this meeting. That would form the basis of a reasonable exchange and give us better information in real time as to what is going on in these hospitals.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I take the Chairman's point. In responding to the committee and in the documentation we forwarded prior to this meeting and presented today, we seek to deliver on all the Chairman's expectations in terms of comparative analysis and being able to compare metrics that had been defined by the Comptroller and Auditor General and our response to those. The Chairman's question is a fair one. We can consider that in terms of responding within a short time. I would ask Dr. Una Geary to comment on one aspect. In the past two years or 12 months we have moved on quite significantly in developing an understanding of the appropriate measures of performance, arising from putting in place the emergency medicine programme. It was not that we did not have regard to the committee's need for comparative analysis, it was more that we put so much work into the development of a more comprehensive set of metrics, which we will be very happy to share with the Chairman.

Before Dr. Geary responds, one of the problems is that in a good deal of the reporting done through the HSE, and the Comptroller and Auditor General in terms of this report, one gets a different set of analysis based on a different make-up of the measurement. All I am asking for is that when a measurement, or how it is taken, is established, it would be helpful if that model was continued or if in varying the model that it would be explained to us.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes.

This report of 2008 is quite shocking in terms of the emergency departments. If public confidence was to be restored, if it was damaged because of the information in the public domain, it would have been helpful today if the HSE brought forward an up to date report and measurements to say that since this report was completed and published in 2009, it had taken the following measures, and what we have here is the outcome. That would deal in a comprehensive way with matters and then the members could deduct from it exactly what the HSE has achieved. It is that jumble of information that makes it difficult for people to understand exactly where the HSE is going.

It is similar to the earlier question on the HSE's method of planning in terms of services in Tallaght or the other hospitals, Roscommon and so on, and now Mallow. In that way the position would be flagged for us well in advance and people would understand that this is a plan or direction the HSE is taking. That is often missing from the public debate in terms of what the HSE is trying to achieve. Sometimes the exchange here is helpful and sometimes it is not and that is why I intervened on foot of Deputy McDonald's question. It is helpful if it said baldly exactly where the HSE is going and then, either politically or otherwise, we can deal with the circumstances arising from the reply.

I thank Mr. Magee and his team for the presentation and also the Comptroller and Auditor General. This report documents a health service that is dysfunctional in terms of the Committee of Public Accounts and ensuring value for money for the taxpayer, which is our role in this committee. This report uses words such as the absence of standards, lack of norms, lack of procedures, problems with access, variations and no performance indicators. My colleague, Deputy Donohoe, stated this in discussion almost two hours ago when he asked Mr. Magee if he could outline the situation in each of these hospitals today and the answer to that was "No". I accept that he has plans to put in place a system of metrics and that this system will come on stream but he will understand my frustration and that of the public when I say Christmas is also coming. It is extremely frustrating for people, particularly when this meeting is taking place at a timely and sensitive moment not only for Members of these Houses but for people across the length and breadth of the country.

I take the Chairman's point that 20 months after this report was published Mr. Magee cannot tell me, a member of the Dáil committee that is responsible for seeking value for taxpayers' money, what he has done with the money to rectify the mistakes, errors, and failures documented in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. I make that comment at the outset.

I also acknowledge two positive signs I take from today's meeting. One was Mr. Magee's comment on moving, on a trial basis from this month, to patient level funding or money following the patient in regard to orthopaedics. That is a welcome development. I also very much welcome his comments on clinician leadership. As we enter and progress this debate about reconfiguration, it is important that we listen to clinicians. I am not a medical expert. Many of the delegates are, although some of them are not. We can all play politics or management games with the health service but ultimately we must hear much more from clinicians, medical experts and the people on the front line. I welcome the comments in that regard.

I wish to inquire about three areas, one of which is the special delivery unit. I thank Mr. Lynch for his comments. I am still unsure about the chain of command. As the CEO of the HSE is Mr. Magee no longer in charge of accident and emergency waiting lists? I understand that Dr. Connor cannot be present today. He is on the interim board of the HSE. I am not sure how the chain of command works. He reports directly to the Minister, Deputy Reilly, not to Mr. Magee as CEO. Who is running accident and emergency departments now? We need clarification on the issue.

If Mr. Magee does not mind I will put the other two questions to him now as well. The next question relates to discharge. We all know anecdotally and in our constituencies about that awful term, "bed blockers" that has been used in hospitals when referring to people who no longer want to be in hospital and, medically, no longer need to be there but who cannot leave because of a lack of community care and home care packages. We have touched on the area on several occasions today. Page 56 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to a national integrated discharge planning steering committee. I seek an update on progress in that regard because Dr. Courtney, whom I have met previously, made comments about the multidisciplinary meeting probably being the most important a patient encounters in a hospital. My experience, and that of many of my Oireachtas colleagues, is that the supports are not available in the community so all the multidisciplinary professionals in the world can meet but it is pointless if the necessary supports and resources are not in place. I would be interested to hear an update on that.

My last point, which is probably the most important, relates to Dr. Crowley and appendix 2. I thank him very much for that. It is most informative. We have become accustomed to people losing faith in reform of the health service at any level because what we have seen in the past - I hope we will not see it in future - is a system where people lose services. Existing services are taken away and people are promised shiny, new, better services in future. One loses a service in one hospital but one is told that a centre of excellence is being provided down the road. What Dr. Crowley documents in the appendix is extremely encouraging but I seek clarification that it is as I read it. He refers to the future role of smaller hospitals, model 2 hospitals, how we treat people in the appropriate place but he also states that before the changes are finalised and implemented a number of things must be addressed such as the ambulance service and capacity, which seems an obvious one, primary care, and out-of-hours GP services. I will be parochial but only in the sense of adding a context to the discussion. My nearest hospital is St. Columcille's in Loughlinstown. Can I tell my constituents, or will Dr. Crowley tell them and all the other patients of smaller hospitals, that the new services will be in place before change happens? If Dr. Crowley is asking us to take a leap of faith, people will not buy into that.

I wish to focus on two more points that relate to the issue. Can Dr. Crowley confirm that what we see happening to smaller hospitals is not the implementation of the Hanly report? I have heard my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Reilly, say in the House on several occasions this week that reconfiguration does not equal downgrading. He has said that one can reconfigure services whereby the smaller hospital will address the clinical need in some areas and that one could see more footfall, for the want of a better term, coming through hospital doors. It is important to clarify whether this the Hanly report?

To be blunt, Mr. Magee referred to the need for political help. I am confident that my view is shared by many colleagues across the political divide, that the HSE has shown a huge lack of willingness to engage with political representatives. I read about changes to my health service in the Sunday newspapers. I have to beg and cajole HSE officials to meet me. To this day I have no confidence that I would have advance notice of any change to a health service in my constituency before our colleagues in the media or my constituents hear about it. That is creating massive frustration among public representatives who are losing confidence in the HSE's ability to work with us, but it is also creating fear and worry, which I hope is unnecessary, among many of my constituents. We are not having rational discussions. We are reading leaked reports. We think there is a problem with information being leaked in this House. I suggest to Mr. Magee that he has a big problem with people who leak information in his organisation.

There are good reporters.

Yes, there are good reporters as well. I would like to hear about that. Could we have a timeline for change? I understand that local issues and clinical need are factors but I wish to know if there are dates and timelines for change and whether we will be informed. Could we work constructively together on the change or are we just going though niceties?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Perhaps I will start with the special delivery unit, SDU, and the line management role. There is no change in the governance arrangements within the HSE arising out of establishing the SDU. The accountability, governance and management structures within the HSE are as heretofore. Dr. Connor has become a main member of the board. We have set up a board committee dedicated to the governance and stewardship of the interventions around the special delivery unit. In that way we aim to integrate and align line management within the organisation to the change agenda being articulated and developed through the work of Dr. Martin Connor. Within that work there is a huge issue of integration with Dr. Barry White and the clinical programmes.

The work of the emergency medicine programme and the acute medicine programme is the strategic template on which Dr. Martin Connor wishes to work. That is very much the strategic agenda. We have immediate operational issues where Dr. Connor has experience and capability to help to intervene to turn around some of the challenges we face within accident and emergency departments. We work extremely closely with Dr. Connor in an aligned and integrated way, but the formal position is that there is no change in the authority structures. Dr. Connor is acting as a catalyst, an adviser, to help the situation. All of the authorities will have to reside within the HSE to execute change. That is in accordance with the legislation and with our governance structures.

As Mr. Lynch mentioned, the other work Dr. Connor must do is to develop over the period to September a future operating model for an SDU. There is work to be done. Given that this is a piece of valuable performance management capability, one must consider how it can be incorporated into the overall management arrangements within the health system. That is the line that also issues from the programme for Government. Through the period up to September or October we may see new models emerging of how that can be executed. As of now, as CEO my intent is to embrace the capability, commitment and expertise brought by Dr. Connor and to integrate it into the running of the system. That will be dealt with by him as a board director and as chair of the committee with responsibility for the area.

I will invite Dr. Crowley to make a contribution on the model and Ms McGuinness to contribute on bed management. Deputy Harris's final point on public representatives is a fair one. Given the challenges facing the health system on a funding, quality and access basis, the executive has a responsibility to work more closely and effectively with public representatives in the relevant areas so that they are aware of what is going on. There are fora in place but they are quarterly. They may not provide an adequate basis for dealing with the issues. We had a recent request for a meeting on the hospital in Loughlinstown. We are happy to organise and facilitate that. Many meetings have taken place on some of the challenges and issues in Roscommon hospital in the past 12 to 18 months. I think there is an issue, and it is a fair point. If we are to change and reform our system, given some of the constraints, and if we are to have the collaborative working across our communities with our public representatives, and especially with our staff in our hospitals as well, we need a better process than the one currently.

In regard to leaks, the only comment I would make is that it creates bigger problems for the Health Service Executive as well because when that happens and information is in the public domain that has not been channelled through the proper processes, it creates huge problems for us as an executive and for me as CEO. It is not something we entertain or are happy with but I understand the issue.

I will ask Dr. Crowley to come in on the-----

Before we hear from Dr. Crowley, Deputy Harris raised an important point which goes back to the comments we heard earlier about stakeholders, and we are representatives of the public in this regard. I will highlight two issues which are a frustration not just for a new Deputy like Deputy Harris but one experienced across this House. I ask Mr. Magee to take note of two points. First, the Oireachtas meetings planned as part of a new approach - we continue to refer to a new approach even though this has been the approach for some time - are not doing the business it was intended they would do. I ask Mr. Magee to examine the way these meetings are conducted throughout each of the regions as they are set up, or locally in terms of county or constituency, to ensure there is a better exchange of information and opinions because my experience is that they are not functioning as they were intended. It is more or less a case of ticking a box rather than engaging, and it is something I intend to come back to at every meeting we have, if necessary, to have it dealt with. I am delighted that Deputy Harris has raised it.

The second issue for me and for Deputies in this House is that in the context of the parliamentary affairs division, which must be costing a considerable amount of money to operate, I would like to determine if it is giving value for money because it certainly is not giving information. The parliamentary questions tabled are normally asked on the basis that they will be answered in three days, but they are referred from one section to another and by the time one gets the answer, the matter has probably got worse. In some cases, the information one gets back is that the particular person has been dealt with or the information is dated. In other cases one does not get any information. It is not good procedure that Members of this Parliament would have to suffer that while acting on behalf of the public. I ask Mr. Magee to examine the parliamentary affairs division with a view not just to making it more efficient but getting the answers to the Members who tabled their questions in a timely fashion and that gives them a comprehensive answer that will satisfy, in terms of the information, the client or the organisation they are representing.

We have discussed the emergency departments. In my constituency we are told that €13 million has been allocated to St. Luke's Hospital in Kilkenny but what are the projects it covers? What is the allocation for the rest of the country? That allocation was announced a month ago but surely other hospitals must benefit from the allocation of such substantial funds. Can we be given a list of those allocations and a description as to the way that money is to be spent? I appreciate that is not part of the reporting today but in terms of giving further information to the Members in a timely fashion, I ask Mr. Magee to address that.

Mr. Cathal Magee

If I could respond, Chairman-----

I do not want to dwell too much on that now.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I will be brief. We expect communication on the capital plan from the Department of Health in the coming weeks. We have been copied on communication from the Department of Finance. The capital plan is going to the next meeting of the board and therefore I believe we are at a point where we can clarify what the capital allocation is for the current year. We can look at how that can be circulated.

Has that capital allocation not already been sanctioned because some hospitals have been told of their allocations publicly?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Mr. Lynch can deal with it but-----

It goes back to the point made by Deputy Harris about the lack of information. We are passing that information to individuals and organisations who are interested in it.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Yes.

It is a helpful exercise to make the information known before it reaches anybody else and perhaps respects the position of Members of this House.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Okay. With regard to parliamentary questions, PQs, the Chairman's points are well made. We are conscious of the service issues around PQs and there is a piece of work under way between the Department and the HSE to co-ordinate and synchronise the whole parliamentary affairs support. There is a piece of work under way to put that on a better footing because it is acknowledged it has not served the representatives well.

On the forum, I take on board the Chairman's points. There is a statutory forum in place but we will look at how we can bring some of these change agendas into that debate.

Mr. Brian Gilroy

I will comment on the capital plan for which I have responsibility. With regard to what is in the public domain, the capital plan is a multi-annual plan and therefore there are not huge variations from one year to the next. The one that was laid in the Library last year would be, by and large, a similar plan. There would be slight variations year on year because it is multi-annual. We would submit that plan in December, along with our service plan, which we did last year, and then engage in communications between ourselves, the Department of Health and the Department of Finance. That process is ongoing and, therefore, at this point in time we do not have an approved capital plan.

The Chairman asked a question on the announcement of some investment. Those announcements were made from outside the health arena. I believe it was local politicians who were making those announcements.

So they have not been approved yet?

Mr. Brian Gilroy

We do not have an approved capital plan yet.

Therefore, the capital sums that have been talked about in terms of hospitals have not actually been approved.

Mr. Brian Gilroy

The HSE-----

Just on the question, they have been approved.

Mr. Brian Gilroy

Absolutely. The HSE 2011 capital plan gets advised to us from The Department of Health. The Department of Finance, I believe, has been in communication with the Department of Health and we believe it is imminent.

What is Mr. Heffernan's view?

Mr. Tom Heffernan

To confirm, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has sanctioned the HSE capital plan. That sanction was issued both to the Department of Health and the HSE. The Department of Health may, as it has primary responsibility, wish to offer additional views but the formal sanction of the capital plan has issued.

When was that issued?

Mr. Tom Heffernan

Approximately a week ago.

Did Mr. Gilroy not know that?

Mr. Brian Gilroy

No. That is what I said. We were aware from the Department of Finance but we do not have the communication from the Department of Health yet. The Department of Health is the primary sanction on it.

What about the other questions?

Mr. Cathal Magee

Before I pass over to my colleagues, my reference to Hanly was in answer to the question from the Chairman about the reason we are here and the background to that. The template we are working from on the configuration of our acute hospital services is the national clinical programmes, particularly in acute medicine and emergency medicine. That is the template which has been developed and blueprinted in the past 12 to 18 months. That is the reference point, together with the requirements and standards for patient safety set by the regulator or HIQA. That is the only model and they are the only criteria. I will ask Dr. Philip Crowley to talk about the model 2 question and his appendix.

Dr. Philip Crowley

My appendix never had so much coverage. As I said, the Health Information and Quality Authority has made clear recommendations. In terms of risk in smaller hospitals, the process is that we have asked the hospitals themselves, as part of their network, to consider the recommendations on the risk profile they assume in accepting patients of different levels of complexity. That is in regard to complex surgery that is not of high volume, the ventilation of patients and whether they are managing the ventilation of patients safely, which relates to the level of decision making cover in the hospital, and emergency and medical care. The recommendations have implications for that area. The process is that we would ask the local hospitals, particularly now that we have a model whereby clinicians are taking a greater leadership role in partnership with the management of those hospitals, as was pointed out, to consider the profile of patients that they accept and determine the safety requirements and optimal conditions.

With regard to Louglinstown, plans are being worked on. They are not ready currently but I guarantee that they will be discussed with the committee and local representatives prior to further action. I am sorry this has not been the case to date.

Ms Laverne McGuinness

I will answer some of Deputy Harris's questions on bed management. With regard to bed management, the block happens at the end. A range of measures has been in place to try to improve capacity to ensure as many people as possible can access our beds and get through the system as quickly as possible. One of the first measures is the average length of stay. One must determine how long people stay when they first enter hospital. We set a number of targets in that regard. There has been a reduction from 6.2 days in 2010 to 6.1 days at the end of April 2011.

We are trying to ensure that more surgical cases are dealt with on a day-case basis rather than on an inpatient basis because that actually increases our full throughflow. We increased our day-case procedures by 60,000 in 2010 over 2009. In April 2011 the number had increased by 6,226 over 2010. Therefore, there is full progression. With regard to the percentage of cases we now deal with on a day-case basis rather than an inpatient basis, there has been an increase from 65% in 2009 to 71% at the end of April, thereby creating additional capacity.

Rather than having patients admitted the night before their procedures, we are working with clinicians to have them carry out procedures on the day of admission. There is an improvement such that there was an increase from 46% in 2009 to 50% at the end of April. Obviously, there is still more throughput but we are working towards the aforementioned objective.

Another important factor in respect of bed blockages is the community intervention team. Rather than having people delayed in hospital, we do a work-up beforehand. While they are in accident and emergency, there is a nurse-led service. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to it in his report. At the time in question, we had four community intervention teams in place; we now have six in place. They, of themselves, have enabled 8,600 people to avoid accident and emergency admissions.

The same applies to going home. When it is time for people to come home and complete their time of care, our home care package services and home helps kick in. Some 12 million home help hours were delivered in 2010. Our target for 2011 is the same. Some 10,000 people benefit every month from the range of home care packages. There are 22,000 beds currently supported under the nursing home support and fair deal schemes.

With regard to the question on delayed discharges, bed blockers and the statistics thereon, over a year ago the figure was up at approximately 1,000. In April, the figure had reduced to just over 600. We have crept up slightly, to 800, because of the fair deal issue but we hope to be in a position to reduce this. All the time, there are measures being put in place by clinicians to improve capacity and flow throughout the hospital. I have set out some of the measures in this regard.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I ask Dr. Una Geary to cover the point as to where we stand in respect of performance metrics. This is crucial in terms of how we go forward. I refer also to the position on the table set out in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The Chairman is correct that, in regard to performance management and the measurement of performance disimprovement and improvement, we need to operate according to the same set of data. Perhaps Dr. Geary will comment on developments in this area.

Dr. Una Geary

I would like to comment on figure 2.2 because the wrong impression has been given. I reassure the committee that the data on which the table is based are in existence across the system at individual hospital level and have also been used in some of the analyses informing our programme's work. For example, with regard to the issue around decision capacity, we have done a detailed analysis of the numbers of consultants and specialist registrars in each emergency department and we have used these data as a basis on which to decide where future posts should be allocated.

With regard to the issues associated with specialty access and diagnostics, this table gives a good overview of the system but it does not provide sufficient data or detail to enable one to make informed judgments on the current situation, particularly in regard to cost. For example, emergency departments are only rated as satisfactory, inadequate or having scope for improvement. Wearing the quality improvement hat, one would say there will always be scope for improvement because quality improvement is a road with no end.

I assure the committee, however, that the data that will be forthcoming from the system over the coming 12 months will be incredibly more detailed. In terms of specialty access and diagnostics, in particular, we will measure what tests are done, when they are done and the number of patients who receive the tests they need. There will be a whole-systems approach to providing the data. This is not just necessary in terms of the oversight of the system but is needed at each hospital's level to improve the service and patient access. I can understand members' frustration when trying to compare departments in Roscommon and Galway university hospitals based on the table but the detail that will come forward in terms of the work done under programmes will enable one to make very accurate comparisons and to have those standardised against clear definitions and measures of clinical activity and acuity in the caseloads and the patient cases to which the data relate.

The data, when presented, need to be compared directly with those in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report so we will not get lost in further analyses and statistics of one kind or another. Such presentation would help us in a simple way and would have the full report behind it. Similar types of data would allow us to make a comparison and decide on the outcomes ourselves.

I take that point but must make the point that the reason the Comptroller and Auditor General had to use a survey method was the lack of metric systems in place. Is the HSE in a position, albeit not immediately, to respond to each of the hospitals and say that since the report was produced in 2008, the decision capacity and bed waiting times in Tallaght, for example, have improved and are as it will outline? When the report was received in 2009, was analysis done at that level? Could it be circulated? When I was coming to this meeting, I expected to receive a response from the HSE as to how it had upped its game from the time the report was produced in 2008. Three hours into this meeting, I am none the wiser on it.

To answer that question, Dr. Geary said the information is available to the hospitals. Perhaps it would satisfy everyone if it were provided to the members of the committee.

That would be great.

Mr. Cathal Magee

We will take that on board and will work with the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and secretariat to update the information and make it available, and we will also share with the committee the future metrics.

If the CEO is committing himself to providing that kind of information - for example, information in regard to the parliamentary affairs division, the capital programme or Oireachtas meetings - I ask that he provide it in a fairly timely fashion so we will be kept up to speed and be included. Thus, information promised at one meeting will now be given at the next meeting. We are waiting for the CEO's response.

I apologise for being late. If I ask questions that have been asked previously and dealt with, the witnesses should tell me. I was going to ask Mr. Magee the question that was just referred to. I, as a member of this committee, find it utterly unacceptable that, 20 months after the production of the report, Mr. Magee is telling us he will work with the Comptroller and Auditor General to give us his views and an update on the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It sounds as if the report were put up on a high shelf when produced in November 2009. It was probably dusted down last week because the delegates were to appear before this committee. I cannot understand why the national Parliament and Comptroller and Auditor General would appear to be wasting their time commissioning detailed reports. The report in question was laid before the Minister and the Oireachtas, including this committee, 20 months ago.

Let me outline my first obvious question on figure 2.2, which concerns the relative performance of emergency departments, bearing in mind that one could talk about the definitions of "specialty access", "diagnostics" and "bed waiting times". As for the update of the aforementioned chart, 20 months later the HSE states it intends to start talking to the Comptroller and Auditor General. If this is the regard shown by the HSE for the report over the past 20 months, I almost feel like telling Mr. Magee to forget about it.

My next point is applicable to all other Accounting Officers who may be appearing before this committee over the year to come. I cannot understand how an organisation that is the subject of a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General can appear before this committee the following year without having responded to the report or how its representatives can then tell members an update will be prepared. I acknowledge Mr. Magee and his organisation are busy and perhaps getting this report was something of a nuisance and it was put to one side on its completion. Now that Mr. Magee has appeared before the committee, he will send on information to members. My point is applicable to all organisations due to appear before the committee that do not take seriously such reports. I suggest to the Chairman that in future before holding a public hearing on a special report by the Comptroller and Auditor General, as soon as the committee receives it, under correspondence it should ask the relevant organisation for a detailed up-to-date response in writing within a month and should indicate it might get around to a public hearing in due course. The committee might change its procedures in respect of these reports. I accept there are many other matters on members' agendas but I make this suggestion for the future.

Perhaps the committee might carry some of the fault in this regard.

Yes, I am making this point.

The report was not reacted to or acted on. I will take on board the Deputy's view.

Yes. That is exactly my suggestion. This committee should change its protocol in order that as soon as it receives a report, it should ask the relevant organisation to respond within a month.

We have decided to do that and have sent out that message clearly to the Accounting Officers.

That is good.

While I could spend a day talking about Roscommon, Bantry and Portlaoise hospitals, I wish to focus on some broader specific issues in order that members can have a better understanding of the position regarding accident and emergency services nationwide. First, the up-to-date figure is that 1.1 million people attended accident and emergency units last year. What is the budget for the accident and emergency departments? What percentage of the HSE's budget goes on accident and emergency services? The opening paragraph of the Comptroller and Auditor's report of 2008 stated the direct cost of the accident and emergency units was €200 million. At a guess, the budget for the HSE was then approaching €14 billion or €15 billion. Consequently, it appears to me as though the direct cost of the accident and emergency departments was approximately 1% to 1.5% of the HSE's budget. The witnesses should indicate what percentage of the HSE's current budget is devoted to accident and emergency departments.

I refer to the 369,000 admissions to hospital last year and note it is stated elsewhere there were 358,000 discharges from hospital. These figures suggest that 60% of hospital admissions are coming through accident and emergency departments. Am I correct in stating there were 369,000 admissions, which means that approximately one third of all cases coming to accident and emergency units last year resulted in an admission? Moreover, the opening paragraph of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report of 2008 stated that approximately 1 million people presented to accident and emergency units, on foot of which approximately 25% of cases resulted in admission. The witnesses might explain the reason this figure rose from one quarter to one third within two years. As going from 25% to 33% of people requiring admission within two years constitutes a highly significant change in respect of how the HSE manages its business, the witnesses might enlighten me in this regard.

I also note the Comptroller and Auditor General's report of 2008 stated those 250,000 people who were admitted cost approximately €1.5 billion to be treated in hospital on foot of their admission. This to me equates to an average cost of approximately €6,000 per inpatient. The witnesses might indicate what is the hospital budget, split between hospital and community, in order that members can ascertain whether the percentage being spent on accident and emergency services is rising or falling or what is the reason for a higher level of admissions. In addition, of the aforementioned 1 million people who went through accident and emergency departments, I note the figure for direct costs in 2008 was only at €200 million. That is a tiny cost, which equates to €200 per person seen. Given the cost of visiting an accident and emergency unit for those people who do not have medical cards is €100, half of that cost is being recovered in cases other than those involving medical cardholders. I hope the HSE is recovering this amount but that is another day's work. The discernible costs associated with managing the accident and emergency service probably are less than the headline figure when one factors out the bills issued by the HSE for using that service. It probably is running at approximately 0.5% or 0.75% of the total HSE budget. Consequently, I will ask a basic question in respect of front-line services. If approximately 1% of the HSE service is spent on front-line accident and emergency services - I cannot think of a more front-line service in any part of public service than one's local accident and emergency unit - it appears to be a small figure from which to start. Is it the Cinderella sector of the service and has it been neglected? What if more had been invested in accident and emergency departments and in consultants, instead of incurring the cost of €6,000 per patient for those who were admitted to hospitals? In this context, the witnesses might state how many such people are admitted directly to the hospital to which they present or whether many people have been referred to hospitals in surrounding areas. I expect some admissions probably are referrals from other hospitals.

Were I reviewing the HSE's position whereby one third of the 1 million people who come through the doors will be admitted at a minimum cost of €6,000 per head, I would be trying to find a way to have available more staff and consultants in accident and emergency units to ensure the number of people who come through the door can be treated more thoroughly in those departments, rather than requiring admission, which will cost 60 times more for each person who enters a ward. I seek witnesses' general views on the overall picture I have deduced based on sketchy pieces of information presented to me.

Mr. Cathal Magee

I thank the Deputy. Obviously an accident and emergency department is the hospital system's front of house and is an integral part thereof and obviously constitutes a significant portion of the total hospital costs. I noted in my opening statement the position in respect of developing costing models and how at present we are beginning to put in place costing models on the basis of diagnosis, that is, what are the costs for particular procedures and treatments. Accident and emergency services comprise 7% of hospital costs and I will ask our finance director to discuss the breakdown of the hospital budget vis-à-vis the community and primary sectors, as well as the rest of the health vote. In the main, that 7% largely includes the direct cost, which is the staff employed within the accident and emergency departments nationwide. It does not include overheads and I believe the Comptroller and Auditor General has recommended an overhead allocation method.

However, the Deputy is correct. The issue in respect of accident and emergency services does not pertain to the proportion of costs but really concerns the cost of admissions. As admissions are clinical judgments, I will ask Dr. Una Geary to come in later on that issue. However, the Deputy is absolutely correct as the question is, how do we stream the patients who come through accident and emergency services into the most appropriate care pathway? Obviously, discharge is the most desirable outcome but it may be necessary to provide other levels of care short of admission. I invite Mr. Liam Woods to comment on the total hospital budget.

Mr. Liam Woods

I will provide some facts in this regard. The HSE's total revenue Vote this year is €13.402 billion. The accident and emergency cost as a percentage of hospital cost is, on average, 7% and it varies from 4% to 13% by hospital. I refer to total cost in this regard and not simply to direct cost, which includes costs incurred by accident and emergency units in other departments, particularly radiology and laboratory. Typically, the larger the hospital, the smaller the percentage because, putting it bluntly, there is more other stuff going on. Finally, in response to the point raised by the Deputy, accident and emergency services account for approximately 2.5% of the global budget.

Mr. Cathal Magee

Perhaps Dr. Una Geary will comment on admission protocols within accident and emergency departments.

Dr. Una Geary

I will comment first on the Deputy's question regarding admission rates. The increasing admission rates mirror what we are seeing in our emergency departments. As our population ages, the number of patients coming into emergency departments tend to be older and have more complex needs. Therefore the admission rates are tending to increase. That is just a mark of more people being more in need.

I understand that the only way to get into some hospitals is to present at accident and emergency. Dr. Geary might talk about how one gets admission to a hospital. Some 60% of inpatients last year went in through accident and emergency, according to these figures. The figure in some hospitals is closer to 100%. The accident and emergency department is being used as the entrance lobby for people who should not come through accident and emergency, and who actually require admission though some other triage method in the hospital. There should be some triage method of admitting some of the elderly people who are presenting with chest or other complaints, and who have a clear history. They seem to have to go through accident and emergency although they are neither accident or emergency cases. Some of them are almost routine admissions. Does Dr. Geary understand my question? In my hospital in Portlaoise, by and large, a GP's letter does not get a person in; they must go through accident and emergency. Accident and emergency is therefore being used as a filtering admission process

Dr. Una Geary

There are other routes into the hospital. The development of the acute medicine programme will enable GPs to refer patients whom they consider to have medical problems directly to the medical position. Therefore they will not need to go through the emergency medicine department itself.

That always used to be the case but the HSE stopped that a few years ago. Is it now going back to where it used to be? That might be the case in some hospitals but can Dr. Geary tell us generally in what category of hospital the old procedure will be reapplied?

Dr. Una Geary

Sometimes the best ideas are old ones that need to come to the fore again. The acute medicine programme has outlined that new method of by-passing patients for whom emergency departments cannot add any value because the GP has made the determination that they need to be admitted. I will ask my colleague, Dr. Garry Courtney, if he wishes to comment further on acute medicine.

Dr. Garry Courtney

It is worth pointing out that the people coming into the hospital through the emergency department need to be admitted. These are not people who could be managed in other ways. One can do some prevention, but the experience of most people working in emergency departments is that the people coming through are sick and need to be admitted. It is not that they could go home and be managed by another route. There has been much focus internationally on the alternative approaches to taking somebody through an emergency department. Perhaps Dr. Geary can comment on that.

Dr. Una Geary

In our current health system, people who are admitted to emergency departments need to come in. The experience has been that other health services invested an awful lot of money in systems to try to stop people coming to emergency departments. There was a culture that some people who came to emergency departments did not need to be there. Certainly, all our patients who are admitted need to be admitted. There is some scope where one has highly developed systems whereby there are rapid access clinics. These are components of health care that will be delivered through the programmes. For example, patients with exacerbation of their chronic disease may contact a rapid access clinic thus intervening earlier before the patient deteriorates and ends up in the emergency department. By the time the patient reaches the emergency department with an exacerbation of chronic illness they are likely to be in a state where they need to come into hospital to be stabilised.

In due course, perhaps the HSE could send us some information on the age profile or category of people now presenting. Dr. Geary said that in two short years there seems to have been a significant change in the profile of people presenting, in that they are older with more complex complaints. How did that happen in a short period of two years? I accept that is the way life is going and it obviously has major implications for the HSE's operations, if more and more people who present at accident and emergency will ultimately require admission. It has gone from a figure of 25% two years ago to 33% now, and it could be heading to 40%. That has massive implications for the operations of hospitals. Dr. Geary might send us the type of information to which she has alluded.

Dr. Una Geary

Yes.

It would be helpful for us. I am sure the HSE officials are extremely conscious of it themselves. I ask the committee to excuse me as I must speak in the Dáil on the emergency legislation on non-consultant hospital doctors. I want to ensure that they will all arrive next Monday.

Thank you, Deputy Fleming. I now call on Mr. Buckley.

Mr. John Buckley

Looking at the issue from my perspective and reflecting on today's meeting, there is a great deal of work for us to track going forward. Efficiency changes have been mentioned, such as bringing in AMAU's in 15 places to get quicker decisions and have earlier discharges. Business processes have also been mentioned with regard to re-engineering services and clinician engagement, and better use of infrastructure in a more joined up way. One of the things that has to be on our radar in the Comptroller and Auditor General's office is how these things are working out, and the results.

From the point of view of performance information, obviously I cannot complain if, having said that the HSE should combine measures of timeliness with indicators of clinical outcome, patient safety, patient satisfaction and costs so as to establish a balanced scorecard, they are now moving beyond the crude indicators we set out, to have even better ones. However, as the Comptroller and Auditor General, I must maintain my attitude of pervasive doubt and check on those as we go.

The third element in today's discussion concerned changed management and the fact that much faith is being put in bottom-up work. I accept that there must be local flexibility and that the configuration of local units will dictate what can be done and how change can happen. If I come to look at this in the future, what I would expect to see in place - although I am not saying it is not already there - is a change management plan that allows for that local flexibility. In addition, there should be some sort of central monitoring so we have a verification process whereby the plan is submitted and monitored centrally. It would be useful to bring all this diverse change that is going on to some sort of pinnacle where it can be reviewed.

Clearly, PCTs or primary care teams are very important in integrating hospital and primary care. We will bring a report forward on that in the next few months. It may allow us to re-examine how they are functioning, as well as the access to diagnosis, and how the creation of the centres and bringing people together is working out. In turn, we will see how that will impact on the fact that, as somebody said during the meeting, the vast bulk of referrals are self-referrals. The question therefore is how will primary care changes ultimately impact on emergency medicine and how can we track that moving forward.

From my point of view, that is the kind of mind set from which we will look at the services. We will collaborate entirely with the HSE if it wishes to rework the indicators on an up-to-date basis. We will supply any information we have so that we can work together to take an up-to-date look at the performance figures we have already presented.

Thank you, Mr. Buckley. Do members of the committee agree to dispose of report No. 70? Agreed. I thank the witnesses for attending. We have had a very good meeting. I ask again that the further information requested be furnished to members of the committee as soon as possible.

If there is no further business that members wish to deal with, can we agree to deal next Thursday, 14 July with the 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, Appropriation Accounts, Vote 31 - Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Chapter 27? Agreed.

The committee adjourned at 1.20 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 14 July 2011.
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