COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 28 Sep 2017

Report on Reopening of Garda Stations: Acting Garda Commissioner

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin (acting Commissioner, An Garda Síochána) called and examined.

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputy Josepha Madigan. Before we proceed to our normal business we will hear from acting Garda Commissioner, Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin, on a commitment given to the committee at a meeting in July to provide a copy of the interim report on the reopening of certain Garda stations. The committee has still not received the report and is concerned that commitments made to it by any organisation are followed through. While we have received a written explanation from the acting Garda Commissioner we consider this such an important matter that we have invited him at short notice to explain to members in person why he is not in a position to provide the report. I acknowledge the acting Commissioner has new responsibility and we wish him well in his new role. However long or short it will be is not for us to say. We will not deal with the content of the report, but there will be a short period for clarifying issues on the commitment and its background.

I remind members, witnesses and those in the Gallery that all mobile phones should be switched off or put on aeroplane mode.

I advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members of the committee are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 186 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite the acting Garda Commissioner, Mr. Ó Cualáin, to proceed.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I recognise that the matter was discussed at a meeting of the committee in July and that I indicated the report could be provided. I made that commitment in good faith at the time. However, as the interim report was prepared for the Minister for Justice and Equality, it is a matter for the Department to approve the release of the document. It was an error on my part and I apologise for it. During the conversation that led to the commitment there was some discussion about the criteria applied and that was where my headspace was during the conversation. I had no issue with the criteria, but when the formal request was received from the committee, it outlined the interim report, and I accept from the transcript of the proceedings that the commitment was made but, as I said, it was made in error.

Chairman

The members have indicated in the following order: Deputies Catherine Murphy, Shane Cassells, Alan Kelly, Marc MacSharry, Mary Lou McDonald and Catherine Connolly. I ask members to be precise when they put questions on the issue before us.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

What is the time limit for questions?

Chairman

Each person will have five minutes for questions and answers and let us see how we get on at the end of seven or eight series of five minutes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The context of the request for the report was a discussion at the meeting. I asked the acting Commissioner about the sale of some Garda stations and whether there was proper evaluation because we may need some of the accommodation at some point in the future. I looked for the reason some stations over others had found their way onto the Office of Public Works, OPW, list. There is a long list of stations. Once it is decided a station will be sold, it goes to the OPW. The OPW has a list of the stations sold and how much was received for them. Stepaside Garda station never found its way onto that list and there are probably others that did not either. At the time, the acting Garda Commissioner told me there was a difficulty with the increase in the number of personnel and that there would be accommodation issues. The point I made was it does not make sense to sell something if we must buy it back at a point when it will be more expensive. It was in this context we sought the criteria.

I know there were six stations because the reply to a parliamentary question I asked last November stated the Minister requested the Garda Commissioner, while fully cognisant of her statutory functions on the distribution of Garda resources in the State, to identify six stations for reopening on a pilot basis, in line with the commitment in A Programme for a Partnership Government. The reply also states the pilot scheme was intended to feed into a wider review of the Policing Authority's work. My understanding is the Garda decides what resources it needs in the context of the funding available. It is valid for us to try to figure out the criteria, and this is what was being asked. We could find ourselves in a situation where stations were sold that should not have been, and how will we know whether that is the case if we do not know the criteria? It was valid to ask this question.

If we do not understand the criteria we can draw only one conclusion. In August, an article written by Juno McEnroe appeared in the Irish Examiner. The article, which is an interview with the Minister of State, Deputy John Halligan, states, "The then-Taoiseach elect told Shane Ross he would help get Stepaside Garda Station reopened, a move which weeks later the alliance’s putative leader announced with much publicity." We just want to know whether the stations are being opened for very good policing reasons, such as crime. It is reasonable for us to know the criteria, and the acting Commissioner must have known what the criteria were that day.

Chairman

We have agreed five minutes and the Deputy has been speaking for three minutes. Only two minutes remain for an response.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

To give the Deputy the backdrop, the closure of stations happened over a period of years from 2011 onwards. This resulted in a total of 139 stations being closed throughout the country. By the time-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Was that 139 stations?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, 139 stations were closed as part of the programme. All those stations are owned by the OPW and they went back into its estate to do with whatever-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Some stations did not find their way onto the OPW list.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The 139 stations that were closed went back to the OPW.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Including Stepaside?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, the whole estate, including stations closed as part of the earlier station closure programme.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

For clarification, does the Commissioner mean 39?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No, 139.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

One hundred and thirty nine were closed?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes. We had 700-plus stations at that time. That station closure programme concluded with 139 being closed across the State. Of those 139, I think 60 were sold by the OPW. When we look at the criteria based on the programme for Government commitment to opening six stations on a pilot basis, part of that issue was asking the Policing Authority, in conjunction with the Garda Inspectorate, to look at our district boundaries and how they were drawn with the possibility that this work may inform or in some way help them come to conclusions regarding how we distribute our resources around the State.

Deputy Shane Cassells

I welcome the acting Garda Commissioner and wish him well in his role. It was certainly one of the shortest opening statements we are likely to get in the Committee of Public Accounts. It is hugely regrettable that the acting Garda Commissioner has taken the decision not to honour the commitment to release the report into the reopening of Garda stations. The key point is the fact it will not be done is a blow to transparency, which was already damaged during the hearings we held with members of An Garda Síochána during the first half of this year. That has been played out well enough in the public domain up to this point. Something we should dwell on for a moment is that this will cause huge anger in the rest of the country, particularly rural areas where those 139 stations were closed or scaled down to buzzer boxes, which is, in effect, the same thing. At the same time, they see pictures in the Irish Independent of the smiley head of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport holding up a poster with his local councillor saying he got Stepaside reopened. This is the context to this. The people in my county, be in it Athboy, Oldcastle, Castlepollard or Enfield, will find that very hard to swallow this morning.

The last time Garda management were before us in July with the former Commissioner, a meeting attended by the acting Garda Commissioner, I held up the front page of my local newspaper, the Meath Chronicle. It contained the headline "Out of control" and concerned crime in Meath at the time. Would the acting Garda Commissioner believe that this morning's edition of the Meath Chronicle contains a headline that screams "Shock rise in Meath crime" regarding crime statistics? The figure is up 59%. Huge parts of my county are under extreme pressure. A huge part of my county and everyone else's county is bereft of the physical presence of the force. I wrote to the acting Garda Commissioner this week because the chief superintendent in my county, Fergus Healy, is doing a fantastic job of trying to thwart the gangs coming from places in Dublin down the motorways and targeting rural areas, but he needs personnel. The ten extra gardaí that are coming in October are simply not enough. The people living in towns and villages in Meath, Tipperary or Sligo where Garda stations are not reopening will feel angry at this morning's proceedings not knowing why their Garda stations remained closed while Stepaside and others are reopened. What would the acting Garda Commissioner say to those people who will read the report or listen to this? I believe the acting Garda Commissioner made that commitment in July in good faith. What has really changed since then not to permit this to come into the public domain?

Chairman

Mr. Ó Cualáin has two minutes before I move on to Deputy Kelly.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

In the context of Deputy Cassells' statement and questions, it would be useful to understand the criteria that were applied by Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll as he went to work to establish where the six stations would be. I can list those.

Deputy Shane Cassells

Please do.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The first one was to ensure there was a rural, urban and Dublin dimension to the pilot scheme. Stations were closed throughout the country in all different categories. Having due regard to population and crime trends, limiting the choice of station to those that remained in State ownership, which goes back to a previous point I was going to finish on from the point of view of ensuring it would not be a buy-back of State property, consideration of those stations that could be opened with least delay, and the impact on the delivery of policing services generally of any particular reopening formed the high-level criteria. Of course, very valuable input can be got, which the Deputy acknowledged, from local Garda management and the critical part it would play in respect of calling out what it sees as being the priorities for its areas. That is the piece of work that Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll set about. Some aspects of that were very detailed and needed a lot of work to drill down into trends, especially in crime and population. We had the benefit of a recent census of population which informed his deliberations regarding what was eventually included in the report. It is of use to the entire committee to hear that. This is the position I had in July regarding criteria. I have no problem with sharing the criteria because I know that this was-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

The acting Garda Commissioner said July.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

When I was here in July when I was asked about-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I thought the acting Garda Commissioner was talking about criteria.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There was a conversation around criteria alluded to by Deputy Murphy. That is why I was forthcoming in the context of giving that point. However, there was a commitment then, which I accept, that the full report could be given. Going back to Deputy Cassells' point, it is not in my gift to give it. The report is in the Department and it is for the Department to release it.

Deputy Shane Cassells

It is interesting because the acting Garda Commissioner mentioned the census and populations trends. I am in a county of 200,000 people where crime is up by 59%. I do not have the level of intelligence afforded by the crime reports the acting Garda Commissioner has but I have the very basic statistics that show that the closure of stations and the reduction of personnel are obviously having an impact in this county. I am sure other Deputies could say the same as well.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I genuinely wish the acting Garda Commissioner the best in his role. He has a big weight on his shoulders. It is an opportunity for a new beginning and I hope he takes it. Today is probably the beginning of that process. He mentioned Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll. The acting Garda Commissioner mentioned the six criteria or whatever they are called. When were they given to him?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

They would have formed part of the correspondence going back to the programme for Government the year before last.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I was a member of that Government. Are they the same criteria that we used to close stations? I presume they were.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Exactly. They would have been.

Deputy Alan Kelly

My understanding is that the selection of the stations for closure was based on three things, namely, an activity analysis of the Garda network, an examination of the impact assessments conducted by local Garda management in respect of stations regarding delivery, and a detailed review of the Garda station network in the Dublin metropolitan region. In an answer to a Topical Issue debate on 13 December 2012 to Deputy Ross about the proposed closure of Stepaside Garda station, it was said that each regional officer was tasked with conducting an impact assessment of the demands placed on each Garda district and station within their region, which sounds plausible. Is it correct to say that the criteria were the same on both occasions?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes. The kernel of it is that the local management input was critical in this regard along with crime and population statistics and usage. Some stations would have had no callers for long periods, so they were the criteria.

Deputy Alan Kelly

All I want to know is whether the criteria are the same.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

They are, essentially, yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

In fairness to the acting Garda Commissioner, I believe that when he came in here in July he gave us that commitment in good faith. I thought that the two letters that came from the Department and from the acting Garda Commissioner himself, although short, were very revealing. In his letter, the acting Garda Commissioner states that he is aware that the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality had written to the committee indicating that it would be inappropriate for the Department to release the report at this time. The acting Garda Commissioner had presumably had the discussion with the Department about this issue before coming in here and before writing that letter, seeing as he was aware of this.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have a very simple question. Has it been decided by An Garda Síochána to open six stations?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Not at this juncture. We await the final report. The interim report made certain recommendations.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Fair enough.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There is still a piece of work to be done but the outcome of the final report is imminent in the coming weeks.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It is now 28 September 2017. We all know that political statements have been issued and commitments made publicly about the opening of stations. The fact is, however, that the acting Garda Commissioner is saying this morning that no decision has been made by An Garda Síochána to actually do so. That is incredible. That is the first thing I want to say. The second thing concerns the criteria. We have to stick to the reason that we are here today.

To be fair to the acting Garda Commissioner, there is a heavy weight on his shoulders. He was in Templemore last week. This is a new broom and a new beginning and I genuinely wish him the best. I want to know for certain, however, about the process through which the stations were closed. Given that the acting Garda Commissioner has said that the same criteria were used on both occasions, I want to know for certain that the documentation currently exists to reopen those stations, down through all the superintendents and the whole network of the gardaí. I want to know that it exists in the same form as it did in 2012 on 28 September 2017, and that it has existed since we were told of the existence of an interim report.

Chairman

A quick comment before I call Deputy MacSharry.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

We have initiated the process of reopening Stepaside station. The chief administrative officer, CAO, has started correspondence on this with the Office of Public Works. Based on the interim report then, yes, a decision has been made on Stepaside.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That contradicts what the witness just said.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I do not understand, Deputy.

Deputy Alan Kelly

The witness said that no decision had been made on the opening of stations.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The Deputy asked me about six stations. No decision has been made on six.

Deputy Alan Kelly

A decision has been made on one.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

A decision has been made on one, yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Could the acting Garda Commissioner answer my question? All I want to know is whether the criteria are the same. The acting Garda Commissioner has read the criteria into the record. We did not know about these criteria, so that was helpful. There are criteria that I am now aware of. We know what was said in a Dáil question some years ago. The acting Garda Commissioner said that the criteria are the same. Ultimately, the documentation and the analysis by various Garda sections has all been put through the system, has all come through an Garda Síochána and exists. There is no question of this being backfilled or of reports being done now. This has to exist. It actually has to have existed from some time ago. I fully accept that the acting Garda Commissioner cannot publish the report, but I want to know that all the documentation in An Garda Síochána relating to those six stations, whichever stations they may be, exists. The acting Garda Commissioner has an opportunity now because this is a new broom. As long as the documentation exists, then everything is fine and justified. I just want to know that it exists.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I can assure the Deputy that I would not make any recommendations or decisions on the opening of Garda stations without a very full and detailed report on what would justify such an opening. It is not just a question of stations that were closed in the past and are now being reopened. Deputy Cassells mentioned his own county and all the other counties bordering the Dublin metropolitan area. We have to keep this under constant review. There will never be a time when we say that this our estate. We are looking at other locations where there have never been stations but where we now feel, based on current evidence, that it would be justified to open one.

Chairman

Just to clarify, the acting Garda Commissioner said that no Garda decision had been made on opening six stations.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. I would have to wait for the final report.

Chairman

That is fine. Has a decision been made on one?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It has.

Chairman

Was that a Garda decision or a Government decision or both?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It was a Garda decision.

Chairman

The Garda made the decision-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Based on-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

On a point of order Chairman, is that station one of the six?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, Deputy, it is.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That just does not add up. How can the acting Garda Commissioner say that no decision has been made on six, but that a decision has been made on one of the six?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Let me go back to the criteria that were set and to the work carried out by Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Driscoll. Of the 70-plus stations left for consideration, only four were in the Dublin area. By and large, most of the stations closed were on the western seaboard. As one came closer to the east, the numbers fell. There were only four in the wider Dublin area that could be considered for reopening, on the basis that the buildings were still in State ownership.

Deputy Alan Kelly

This does not add up, Chairman. The question was not answered.

Chairman

I will go to Deputy MacSharry next.

An Garda Síochána was following the process in the programme for Government for reopening Garda stations and had a shortlist of six. Could the acting Garda Commissioner just explain how An Garda Síochána came to the decision to only open one?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The decision was based on an interim report submitted by Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Driscoll, in which he gave substantial detail about the state of his work at that particular time.

Chairman

Did the acting Garda Commissioner approve the reopening?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That report-----

Chairman

The former Garda Commissioner told us here on the last day that she did not have the report but that the witness, the acting Garda Commissioner, did. Was it the acting Garda Commissioner's decision to reopen the station?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. When the Chairman says "my decision" as acting Garda Commissioner-----

Chairman

The decision of An Garda Síochána.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It was my decision as acting Garda Commissioner.

Chairman

Yes.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It is a matter for the Commissioner of the day to decide. That was not always the case, however.

Chairman

Can the acting Garda Commissioner give us the date of that decision?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The interim report was sent by the Commissioner's office to the Department shortly after its receipt. I would say that was June or July. I can get the Chairman the exact date.

Chairman

We will ask for that. Perhaps Mr. Joseph Nugent or somebody could phone to get the date on which An Garda Síochána made the decision to reopen Stepaside. We would like that done now. Perhaps Mr. Nugent could step outside now to make that phone call, because that date is critical. I now call Deputy MacSharry.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I welcome the acting Garda Commissioner and wish him the very best of luck. Some issues have already been covered by my colleagues. Perhaps we could just recap so that I am crystal clear. We have established that the criteria to close and open stations are the same.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

More or less.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

More or less? They are either the same or they are not.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Deputy Kelly called out three elements there. If one looks into those then the others fall out of them. We were all asked in 2011 by the then Commissioner to look at our estate of stations and to consider which of them could be closed on the basis of the three criteria Deputy Kelly just mentioned.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Did those same criteria apply to the reopening?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Will I just call out the criteria?

Deputy Marc MacSharry

There is no need. Deputy Kelly has already done so and I am also aware of those three criteria. We do not need to repeat them. The acting Garda Commissioner said that the criteria were absolutely the same. He said that several times. Is that still the case?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It is still the case.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The same criteria were used to close Stepaside as to open Stepaside. We have established that Stepaside was the only one of a potential six stations to be reopened; that the criteria were the same; and the decision was based on the interim report. Is that the case?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is correct.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

When the acting Garda Commissioner gave us the commitment that he would make that report available, did the Secretary General, Mr. Noel Waters, personally ring him?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No, Deputy, he did not.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Did somebody further down the trough?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. It became clear when we received the formal request for the interim report that it was not in the Commissioner's gift to hand it over but rather that it was a matter for the Department of Justice and Equality. It was told at that juncture that this request had been made.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

An Garda Síochána made a recommendation to Government in the interim report that six stations be reopened. Is that correct?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. It had not reached that level.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

How then did Stepaside happen to be the one and only station that An Garda Síochána decided to reopen? At this particular juncture, as the acting Garda Commissioner said, there was other work to be completed.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

This was because the work that had to be completed by the assistant Commissioner with his local management at the time was far less onerous than that of other assistant commissioners with bigger estates to consider when it came to recommending stations for reopening.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I am still not clear.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There were only four stations in the Dublin Metropolitan Region, DMR, that could be considered for reopening.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Did Mr. Ó Cualáin have a previous position that one of the reopenings had to be in Dublin?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That was part of the high level criteria.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

"High level criteria", what criteria were they? We are on different criteria.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I just called them out.

Chairman

The five.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Urban, rural and Dublin.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The assistant commissioner had to open one in Dublin and the only one he could open was Stepaside. One of the criteria which Mr. Ó Cualáin seemed to emphasise and I would like to give him the opportunity to say it was the key one, was that it was still in State ownership.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, all of the ones that were considered were still in State ownership.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Were the other three in Dublin in State ownership?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Any of the four could have been opened.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Based on the application of all the other criteria.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

There could be others of those four in the six. Is that correct?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There could of course.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Is it the case, as Deputy Kelly mentioned, that, with a new broom, new opportunity, a clean sheet, while the Department of Justice and Equality in some instances operates in splendid isolation, in this case it has thrown the Garda under the bus, telling it to design criteria and do whatever is necessary to reopen Stepaside because of the political expediency of facilitating members of the Cabinet?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The only criteria that I as acting Garda Commissioner can consider are based on policing needs and requirements for the communities.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

We are concerned because following a commitment from the Garda, the then Commissioner and the witness as acting Garda Commissioner, we were to get the report, then we were not to get it and now we have correspondence – which of course is not Mr. Ó Cualáin's fault – from the Secretary General of the Department saying we may get the report in due course, with plausible deniability built in for the Department when it says it will be with redactions based on policing and security. We are never going to get the report. Was Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll in charge in Dublin at the time that this report was written?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No he was not.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Why was he selected?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

We are all very busy, all our assistant commissioners were very busy but we needed someone who had served in the DMR in specialist areas and in the rural domain and he had done all of that. He was a natural choice to select at the time to do that work.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I thank the acting Garda Commissioner for being here. It seems to me the same criteria were used to open as to close. We are still considering which six to open although Stepaside is already agreed in isolation. The acting Commissioner was giving us a report and then he was not. The Secretary General of the Department, which is not the acting Commissioner's fault, is telling us we can have the report but it may have redactions, presumably if some of that information is unworthy of the Committee of Public Accounts or public consumption. I am bound to say and it is not necessarily a reflection on the acting Commissioner that this is totally unacceptable. It is making a mockery of transparency in a public process and sadly it does not augur well, perhaps through no fault of the acting Commissioner's, for the overall image of the Garda in a new era.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Who set the high level criteria?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The criteria would have been included in correspondence from the Department when it outlined the programme for Government initiatives.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I just want to get the sequence clear: there is a commitment in the programme for Government to open six stations-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

-----on a pilot basis. The high level criteria are set within the Department and it corresponds with the acting Commissioner saying this is the commitment we have made, this is a matter of policy, these are the criteria the acting Commissioner is to apply.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The criteria could be considered in the context of the work we had been asked to do.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The high level five criteria that Mr. Ó Cualáin described did not emanate from An Garda Síochána, they emanated from the Department. Is that correct?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is correct.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Presumably the then Minister for Justice and Equality had oversight of that, which flies in the face of the fact that the current Minister, Deputy Flanagan, is very clear, and I think accurate, in asserting as recently as 20 September that the Garda Commissioner is primarily responsible for those decisions, such as reopening stations. Was the setting of those criteria therefore by the Department not a real intrusion on the authority of the Garda Commissioner of the day?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That has to be taken in the context of another aspect of the programme for Government which was that the Policing Authority in conjunction with the inspectorate would carry out certain work.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We are not discussing that.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

This was to inform the work on the six pilot stations.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am putting a much more straightforward proposition to the acting Commissioner. If there was a need to reopen Garda stations on a pilot basis or any other basis and if the concern was solely policing need, as the acting Commissioner has said, was it not then a gross intrusion for the Department to set criteria that ought to have been set by the Garda? Who set the criteria for closing the stations?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I cannot recall. I was not in headquarters at the time. I was one of the people who had to act on that on a regional basis.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The acting Commissioner does not know who set the criteria for closing the stations but we know that the criteria for opening them were set by the Department and the Minister, therefore by the political system rather than by any Garda need.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

At the time of the closure of the stations the Garda Commissioner was not in a position to close or open Garda stations without the permission of-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I understand that.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That has changed. That is no longer a statutory requirement.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does the power reside with the Commissioner now?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The acting Commissioner has the authority to make a decision about which station to reopen.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

He has taken the single and sole decision that Stepaside Garda station is to reopen on the basis of an interim report, work that he is at pains to tell us is not complete.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I did not make that decision.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Who made that decision?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

My predecessor. That interim report was submitted.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Office of the Garda Commissioner has taken that single and sole decision.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is the acting Commissioner happy to stand over that as the priority decision for reopening of a Garda station in this State?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

All six are priorities.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Only one is over the line. Does Mr. Ó Cualáin as the person in charge, as the acting Commissioner, stand over that decision?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I absolutely do. The criteria that were recommended not necessarily-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is Mr. Ó Cualáin saying therefore that Stepaside was more urgent and more in need of attention than any other station of the 70 that he stated? Is he saying that the criteria and the analysis screamed out "reopen Stepaside" and is still mute on the other stations?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. As I think I explained in response to the previous question the reason there was so much information available on Stepaside is that it was one of four stations that had been considered by the Deputy Commissioner in charge of the DMR. His colleagues throughout the country had a far bigger number to consider in the context------

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does the Acting Commissioner think that is a credible answer?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I have come in here to assist this committee. That is how it happened. If the Deputy considers that of the 70-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Stepaside was more worthy than Rush, for example.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I am not saying what was worth-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does the acting Commissioner have the documentation? I am picking Rush because there was considerable outcry in north Dublin and acting Commissioner is focusing his remarks on Dublin. Is he prepared to say here that having the documentation and having applied the high level criteria that Stepaside was an obvious priority as against Rush or any other stations?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I am not prioritising any one station over another.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Mr. Ó Cualáin has.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The interim report submitted gave the up to date position then current a few months ago and it happened that it was far easier to come to a conclusion on Stepaside and the other Dublin stations because there were only four to consider.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Therefore the acting Commissioner is saying that Stepaside was more worthy and needy than for example Rush?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I am not saying any such thing. There is still some work to be done.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is that what his data told him?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There were grounds to support the reopening of Stepaside because of the level of knowledge submitted by Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll at the time, based on the criteria.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Does the interim report only deal with the Stepaside Garda station?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No it does not. It deals with the up to date position for all the stations.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

So, the Stepaside Garda station is still part of a report that is interim in nature and yet a definitive decision has been taken on that Garda station and that station alone?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is the current position.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

And Mr. Ó Cualáin stands over that?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I do Deputy.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Go raibh míle maith agat. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an tUasal Ó Cualáin as a ról nua. Go n-éirí leis. Níl sé éasca.

I realise there is a boundary, that the Oireachtas Committee on Justice and Equality also has a very important role in this and that the matters will be discussed in detail. Our remit is because the acting Garda Commissioner came before us and said he would give a report. That has been looked at, he made a mistake and has apologised and said he should not have. I am not going to go on about that, I accept his apology.

I am concerned at how the report was not given to us after the acting Commissioner left here. He had said in good faith that he was going to give it to us.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes. Based on my experience at the Committee of Public Accounts and at the Committee on Justice and Equality over the past few years, once we leave the committees there is usually a piece of correspondence follows us in relation to-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Mr. Ó Cualáin waited for the correspondence?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

To give clarity to the overall commitments made, be they letters or whatever commitments we made. My commitment on the report would have been included in that.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I only have five minutes so I want to ask very specific questions. Mr. Ó Cualáin waited, in due course, which is the normal procedure for a letter to come to clarify the outstanding pieces of correspondence.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

We wanted to ensure that we got as comprehensive as-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

That is okay. So there was no discussion with anyone after the witness left this committee until the committee wrote out to him and said-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There was. Yes, there would have been discussion.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

With whom?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Internally. Having left the committee I would have realised that I had said something and maybe I should not have said it and should not have made that commitment.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

How did happen? Where did the moment on the road to Damascus come?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I would have made the realisation myself and had a discussion with my colleagues. Then, when the formal request arrived we decided through the CAO, given that he had been given that department-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Had the witness been in contact with the Department of Justice and Equality?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. The Deputy would have to ask the CAO that question. I was not in contact with anybody in regard to that.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Is Mr. Ó Cualáin very familiar with the interim report?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Not very. I have read it at the time.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

We are waiting on the Government to make a decision on that, is this correct?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The Government did consider it yes, and noted it sometime in June or July.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Given that it is still an interim, or draft, report will the report come back before the acting Garda Commissioner in order for him to make comments on it?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It is an interim report and we expect a final report from Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll in the coming weeks.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Let me get this right. An interim report went forward to the Government and the Department of Justice and Equality?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

The Government, in its wisdom, acted on that interim report in respect of the Stepaside Garda station - which I will leave to the Committee on Justice and Equality to look after. This interim report went forward not finalised and the Government acted on it with regard to the Stepaside Garda station. It is still an interim report that is being worked on and is to come back to An Garda Síochána for further comments.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The final report will be submitted in the coming weeks. At that juncture we should have clarity around all six Garda stations that are being recommended for re-opening.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

A decision was taken, out of the hands of An Garda Síochána. Is Mr. Ó Cualáin standing by the decision in relation to the Stepaside Garda station and that it was a strong recommendation from the interim report?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It was a recommendation in the interim report yes.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Again, I am very conscious that the justice committee would look at the detail, but this committee is about the value for money aspect. A colleague made a very good point this morning during the private session with regard to value for money and the selling off. I might come back to that.

On the process, I understand that the acting Garda Commissioner's word was given and has apologised and we go forward. The Government, however, has acted on a draft report, which is a work in progress, and it picked one station out while Assistant Commissioner John O'Driscoll is still working on the report.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll had come to conclusions on certain matters in that interim report but there was still ongoing work required, especially in the rural regions.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Did the witness recommend that the interim report would be done in a stepped fashion and that bites would be looked at? Is that his understanding?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Given the size and significance of the work it was important, especially in the context of the piece of work that was happening with the Garda Síochána Inspectorate and the Policing Authority, that we would let them know how we were progressing. There was a lot of analysis to be done along the criteria we have outlined and in getting the views of local management. That took time.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

In the interests of openness, if the Government makes a decision in relation to one Garda station based on a draft report, which is a work in progress, would it not be prudent that this would be put before the relevant committees? If the Government is acting on the report would it be good procedure in accountability?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is a matter for the Department; I cannot answer on its behalf.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Were any of the Garda stations in Dublin not within the public ownership?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There were four left available. I can find out if there were more than four or if any other stations had been closed before-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

The witness might clarify how many had been sold in Dublin. How many were in Dublin? How many had been closed? How many were sold? How many were left available?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I can clarify that.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Go raibh maith agat.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can I come in on that because it is part of the criteria? I got a reply to a parliamentary question in July and there was 42 stations sold. There are 159 closed, and none of them are in Dublin.

Deputy Shane Cassells

Chairman, with regard to the point made by Deputy Connolly-----

Chairman

The witness says there were four in Dublin and they are still in State possession.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

When Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll started his work he established that there were four Garda stations that fitted that criteria that were still in State ownership.

Deputy Shane Cassells

Would anyone have actually contacted Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll, be it a senior official in the Department or anyone on the behest of a Cabinet Member, to extract the Stepaside Garda station away from the others to give it this prominence? I think that people are finding it hard to put this in their head as to why that station was picked out and why an interim draft report would not be allowed to go in its totality and fullness without having this station extracted.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That was a second interim report. There was a previous interim report that showed the early approach to the work and what it would entail. This was a second interim report. Could the Deputy repeat the other question?

Deputy Shane Cassells

Did anybody bring pressure to bear to say that Stepaside Garda station should be put-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I am not aware that anybody put any pressure to bear to do that.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the witness for his time and I wish the acting Garda Commissioner the very best in his role. I know it is a very difficult task. Obviously, as he is entering the programme of renewal within An Garda Síochána, it is very important for this committee that An Garda Síochána's actions are seen to be transparent and that it is seen to have robust practices. The responses here today leave a lot to be desired. Is the decision on the opening of any Garda station a reserve function for An Garda Síochána?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It is a decision for the Garda Commissioner of the day to recommend, yes.

Deputy Peter Burke

It is a reserve function. That is the first point. This needs to be clear.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There are things that would have to be approved, of course, because there are financial issues that must be considered in the context of opening a Garda station.

Deputy Peter Burke

Irrespective of the budget; whatever budget to give to the Garda Commissioner of the day comes down to the Department. The decision, however, is critical and I want no ambiguity around this. The decision to open a Garda station is a reserve function.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It is.

Deputy Peter Burke

Is it true that an Garda Síochána has made a definite decision to open the Garda station at Stepaside?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is correct, yes.

Deputy Peter Burke

Given the basis of how that the decision was made in isolation - and we must think of the world we live in - this leaves the acting Garda Commissioner and An Garda Síochána open to accusations. In order to have the force above any accusations of transparency and public scrutiny, does Mr. Ó Cualáin believe it was a good idea to isolate the Stepaside Garda station? When one considers the political realities that were around it and considering the way the force at that time was being inundated with various reports from different organisations, is the witness satisfied that it was a good idea to do that?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I do not think it is fair to say that anything was isolated. All of these matters were looked at at the same time.

Deputy Peter Burke

But the opening was an isolated decision.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It so happened that there was a recommendation in the assistant commissioner's report that could stand over the opening of that Garda station at that time.

Deputy Peter Burke

It was an interim report.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Peter Burke

Would it have been more prudent and better practice, to give it time, to announce all the stations together? If it was going to open two, three or four stations would it not have been more prudent for An Garda Síochána to say it would open them all when it was in possession of all the information, all the facts and when the reports were finalised?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

In a practical way there are many implications arising out of any decision and if six stations were to be recommended together then we would have to go back to the OPW and get its co-operation and input around re-opening a station that was closed. It is not just as simple as turning the key in the door. There are many other considerations, such as building regulations and so on, once a station is decommissioned and one then goes to reopen it and, therefore, a staggered approach is probably more prudent.

Deputy Peter Burke

In terms of a force of 15,500 and whatever number of Garda stations there are, possibly over 700-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There are over 500. There used to be over 700.

Deputy Peter Burke

In that context, the reopening of one station is a considerably staggered approach.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It has to be considered in the context of a very ambitious programme of reform under which lots of money has been committed to our capital programme involving new stations around the country and the refurbishment of stations. It is not a bottomless pit and we must be prudent in how we approach it.

Deputy Peter Burke

Has all such work been carried out in Stepaside?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No, it has just started. That discussion has just started with the Office of Public Works, OPW, through the chief administrative officer's office.

Deputy Peter Burke

The critical thing I want to be comfortable with as a member of this committee is whether the witness, as acting Garda Commissioner, is of the view that the Garda Síochána should not have done anything differently with regard to this opening. The witness cannot see the concerns that exist. He has said the Garda went through a process and made a decision based on an interim report to open that station on its own. In terms of the leadership role he now has in the Garda Síochána, he now has a chance to break away and acknowledge things that should have been done better. Is he happy with that decision and how it was made?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I assure the Deputy that, as I said, the only criteria I apply in doing my duty are on the basis of policing. I cannot get involved in politics. I am aware of it but I cannot get involved in it and it is not in my remit to do so.

Deputy Peter Burke

I appreciate that but the witness must be acutely aware of sensitive decisions. To isolate one station for reopening based on an interim report is probably not best practice. People like to have possession of all information before a decision is made. That is basic good practice in any organisation. That these decisions are being made is a cause for great concern. I spoke to my colleague, Senator Neale Richmond, on this issue during the week and he is concerned about whether there are sufficient gardaí to staff that station and reopen it.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

To revert to the criteria, that is one issue about which local Garda management must be very happy. If everything else is there, all things being equal, the question of whether there are sufficient gardaí to staff the station was part of the criteria local management had to apply when it came back with its recommendation.

Deputy Peter Burke

That people are available to staff it.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

On the basis that it was recommended for reopening, that would have to be in place.

Deputy Peter Burke

There are a lot of caveats coming in there on the basis-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No, these are-----

Deputy Peter Burke

It is a "Yes" or "No" answer. Are there------

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, they are.

Deputy Peter Burke

The gardaí are ready to go into it.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I would not have accepted the recommendation nor will I accept any future recommendations unless I am very happy that that is the case.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the witness.

Chairman

Has the acting Garda Commissioner ascertained when the Garda decided to reopen Stepaside Garda station?

Mr. Joseph Nugent

The report was provided to the Department on 9 June and it was considered by the Government on Tuesday, 13 June.

Chairman

It was announced by a member of the Government on Tuesday, 13 June. The report was given to the Government on 9 June------

Mr. Joseph Nugent

The report was provided to the Department on 9 June.

Chairman

------recommending that Stepaside Garda station alone be reopened. This is the confusion. There were 16 Garda stations mentioned but there was one for-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

More than one station was mentioned in the report but it showed that work was being done and had been substantially progressed on several, including Stepaside.

Chairman

In the report that was submitted.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Chairman

In other words, the report was provided to the Government with more than one Garda station identified as being suitable for early reopening.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is correct.

Chairman

It was a Government decision to pick one station, not a decision of the witness.

Deputy Alan Kelly

What date was this?

Chairman

Tuesday, 13 June was the date placards announcing the reopening appeared outside Leinster House before the Cabinet meeting. That is not Mr. Ó Cualáin's affair and the committee accepts that is politics. To get the sequence right-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

As Deputy Burke established and the Chairman has confirmed, it is a reserved function for the Garda Síochána to make that decision, which brings us back to the point I made earlier that the political system - in this case the Cabinet or members thereof - intruded on a decision that rightfully should have been taken by the Garda. The Garda is the body to set criteria and decide which Garda station should be reopened and on what basis. The Chairman has confirmed that this was a political decision.

Chairman

We, as politicians, will deal with that on a political level. Did the report produced by the Garda Síochána that went to the Department of Justice and Equality on 9 June and then to the Government recommend more than one early reopening?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It did, yes.

Chairman

If the then Commissioner had the authority and it was her reserved function, why did she not proceed with reopening the stations that were so recommended? Has the process to reopen any other station commenced?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The recommendation of the assistant commissioner was that a number could be progressed.

Chairman

To reopening.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes. I consider it prudent at this juncture to await the final report because other stations could be considered and one of the criteria is the impact on policing in a given area and that may change. It is, therefore, important that we get the full picture of, for example, places contiguous to the Dublin metropolitan area.

Chairman

No other stations have commenced the process. The witness said discussions with the OPW for arrangements to reopen Stepaside Garda station have commenced.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The OPW was also made aware that other stations were under consideration for reopening and, therefore, could not be sold in the meantime.

Chairman

It is the Commissioner's decision to reopen Stepaside Garda station.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, the Commissioner------

Chairman

I asked on what date the Commissioner made that decision. A report was sent to the Department of Justice and Equality on 9 June. A Minister made an announcement on 13 June. On what date did the Commissioner decide to reopen that station?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The Commissioner sent on the report of Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll and was happy with its recommendations.

Chairman

That Stepaside Garda station be reopened.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Chairman

The report from the Garda Síochána to the Government recommended that Stepaside Garda station be reopened.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Chairman

Fine.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I want to get a clarification because-----

Chairman

There will only be time for quick clarifications. The Department has not come in yet. That sequence needed to be clarified.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I will be brief. I congratulate Mr. Ó Cualáin on his appointment and thank him for his attendance. How many stations were included for consideration in the report?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

From memory, four were at a stage at which they could be considered for reopening.

Deputy Alan Farrell

In any given financial year, if the Garda made a recommendation that a station be reopened, how long would it take for the necessary works for its reopening to be completed?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I have no experience of that. I cannot recall any station recently being opened from scratch. We were closing stations. It would be a considerable period. If the building was already in existence and had at some stage been an operational Garda station, that does not necessarily mean it is in turnkey condition. Lots of remedial work might need to be carried out to bring the building up to current building regulation standards.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Were any stations in Dublin considered other than Stepaside?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There were. All four that were available to be considered were considered.

Deputy Alan Farrell

They were all in Dublin.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Alan Farrell

The interim report provided to the Department of Justice and Equality and then the Government in June was to be finalised shortly thereafter, as far as I have been informed.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Alan Farrell

We are now rapidly approaching October and have gone way beyond "shortly thereafter". What is the delay?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The delay is due to the onerous work that had to be carried out locally by assistant commissioners in regions where there were a considerable number of stations to be looked at in the context of justifying on a policing basis that the stations needed to be reopened. That is where the majority of the work took place.

They would have required many analysts who had to do a great deal of data gathering in the context of the census, crime reports and so forth, and how those have changed over the years.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Was an Assistant Garda Commissioner doing the work?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, John O'Driscoll.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Was he tasked solely with considering existing stations that had been closed or was he given the opportunity to assess communities on the basis of where a station was required, rather than where they were previously located?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

He did that. We have work to show that there are certain areas which are in critical need of a Garda presence. They will form part of his report.

Deputy Alan Farrell

The witness said that he had read it some time ago.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Did the witness read it in advance of coming here?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I did.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Were those locations primarily in urban environments or were there any geographical breakdowns as to where those stations were to be located?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

They would be in areas of increasing demand, for example, ports or airports. It was that type of profile.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank the witness.

Chairman

I call Deputy Aylward.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I wish the acting Garda Commissioner the best. He faces an onerous task in that capacity. On political interference, the witness said the Garda is autonomous in making the decision on where and when the stations are opened. It seems strange in our political situation that a Minister wanted the Stepaside station reopened in his constituency and it was the one that was picked. We are all from different areas of the country and we all wanted stations reopened yet it was this one that was picked, as several members have mentioned. It appears to the public that there was a politically motivated reason for reopening it rather than the reasons the witness has given here today. Will he comment on that? I accept that the Garda is autonomous and that politicians are not supposed to interfere but to Members of the Dáil it appeared that Stepaside station being reopened was politically motivated, with no other station considered at the time.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The only comment I can make is that this piece of work began as a result of an initiative outlined in the programme for Government. That is the basis on which we carried out our work and that is the basis on which I will make any decisions - purely on policing requirements and nothing else.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

It was purely coincidental that a new programme for Government was being formed with a new Taoiseach and this announcement was made on the same day, or around that time.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is the business of the Government.

Chairman

The programme for Government was the one after the last election. There was no new programme.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I have another question. I am from the Carlow-Kilkenny constituency. Many stations were closed in Kilkenny and some were sold. Where stations were closed there is talk about getting gardaí back to them. Two gardaí were appointed just last week, one for my parish of Ballyhale and another for Stoneyford. If a station has been sold and a garda is appointed to that parish, how does the Garda handle that? Is the Garda trying to get rented accommodation or does it just work from the main stations?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

If a Garda station was closed as part of the station-----

Deputy Bobby Aylward

And sold.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Once it is closed, it is no longer part of the Garda estate. It goes back into the ownership of the Office of Public Works. Once a Garda station is off our books the policing arrangements for that area would go to some other sub-district or district headquarters. That is where the people would be allocated.

Chairman

I call Deputy Alan Kelly. We are dealing with final quick clarifications now.

Deputy Alan Kelly

We have established the criteria, which is fine. The witness verified, following my question, that a process is being followed. There is documentation that is all date stamped. It will not be recreated but is all there. Obviously, it came through the process to the Commissioner and the decision was made. I presume that in the case of Dublin the Assistant Garda Commissioner, Pat Leahy, was fully consulted on this issue. Given gangland crime and the like, I would have presumed that Fitzgibbon Street would have been a bigger priority than leafy Stepaside. That said, if that is the decision based on the data that was given and which came through the process all the way up through the Assistant Garda Commissioners, that is fine. I presume all of these people were consulted and agreed to this process and the decision that was made.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

The most important input in this process is from local Garda management. That formed a central plank-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

All I wish to do is verify that it came all the way through the process and through all the people. The witness is basically saying it was from the ground up. It is good to know it is the local gardaí. It came up through all the ranks to Assistant Garda Commissioner Leahy and further.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

Yes.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That is fine. I seek a last clarification. The witness said earlier to Deputy Bourke - Chairman, this needs another date - that there was an interim interim report. Can we get the date of the interim interim report so we can follow this through? On 9 July, the report was sent to the Department. On 13 July, there was a big mass of bunting out in Stepaside.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

It was June.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Sorry, it was June. There was the big mass of bunting when the Government announced this single station. On what date was the interim report concluded and when was it submitted to the Government? Mr. Nugent might wish to make a second telephone call, but that information is critical.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

We provided the report that is being referenced here to the Department on 9 June and it went to the Government on 13 June.

Deputy Alan Kelly

However, the acting Garda Commissioner, in response to Deputy Bourke, said that before that there was an interim-----

Mr. Joseph Nugent

There was a status update in March which just explained what An Garda Síochána was doing with regard to the commitment in the programme for Government. Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Driscoll would have explained what he was doing in that context.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That then went up the line to the Department.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

It was just a status update. It was not a Garda----

Deputy Alan Kelly

So it was not an interim report.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

It was a status update.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It was not an interim interim report.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

We are splitting hairs. We are just saying it was a first report on what was happening.

Deputy Alan Kelly

It did not contain any recommendations or the like.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

No.

Deputy Alan Kelly

Perhaps we could have the exact date of that.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

I think it was 30 March.

Chairman

We will ask you to send a specific note. Deputy McDonald seeks a final clarification.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I seek a couple of brief clarifications so I am absolutely clear. The interim report that went to the Government stated that An Garda Síochána recommends the reopening of Stepaside Garda station.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Garda had taken a decision to do that and that will be reflected in the interim report when we see it.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It will.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Garda had not advanced a similar position for any other Garda station.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

We had substantially advanced cases-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Did the Garda say that it also believed that Rush Garda station should be reopened?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, I can confirm that was the case.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Garda said that Rush should be opened.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Cabinet cherry-picked that interim report and gave Stepaside the green light but not Rush. It cherry-picked the interim report.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

What the Government does is the Government's business. All I can do is based on what went in and what came back. There was a need to await the final report, I would say.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am just trying to establish the facts. The acting Garda Commissioner is confirming that the interim report that recommended the reopening of Stepaside Garda station also recommended the reopening of Rush Garda station.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, and a few others as well.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What other Garda stations did it recommend reopening?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There were some, not in the Dublin area, that had reached that level.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is it the acting Garda Commissioner's view that Stepaside, from a policing and public safety perspective, was more worthy of being opened than Rush?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

In my view any station that was recommended in that report-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Ought to be.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The same criteria applied.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What is the acting Garda Commissioner's view of the Cabinet cherry-picking decisions that are rightfully his? It is the prerogative of his office.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I am not commenting. My office did what it was asked to do, so that is where we are.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

May I comment on it? I think it is a disgrace that political cherry-picking of Garda decisions happens. I asked the acting Garda Commissioner earlier about the setting of the high-level criteria and he confirmed that they were equally politically set by the Department. I also asked him earlier about the criteria for closing the stations down and who set those criteria and he could not answer me. I would be most appreciative if he would furnish that information to the committee after this meeting.

Chairman

I call Deputy Catherine Murphy, who will be followed by Deputy Catherine Connolly. They have just a minute each. We have to wrap up. The HIQA representatives are waiting outside.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have a number of very quick questions. The first concerns a reply I received in November of last year to a parliamentary question and follows on from the point that has been made. The reply states, "As the Deputy will appreciate, the Garda Commissioner is primarily responsible for the distribution of Garda resources in the State and, as Minister, I have no direct role in the matter." It is very clear from what Mr. Ó Cualáin has said that the Minister had a very direct role in the matter because there was a direct choice to be made and that direct choice was made about one station. It was, therefore, not the Garda that selected Stepaside; it was either the Government or the Minister. That seems to be very clear from what he has said.

The second point is that some stations have found their way onto a sales list. Of the 159 stations closed, 42 have been sold. That makes 117 that have not been sold, and they are well distributed. There are 16 in Leinster and nine in Connacht, despite the fact that Mr. Ó Cualáin said most of them were on the western seaboard and so on. Stepaside does not appear to have been put on a list for sale. Does the Garda have a role with the OPW in terms of future-proofing these needs? Does it have a role with the OPW in saying, "Do not sell that. This is cropping up from the information we are gathering from our districts. If we are future-proofing our needs, we will need to hold onto that"? Is that part of the dialogue? Does that happen between the Department of Justice and Equality and the OPW, or between whom does it happen? We could very easily sell off stations and then have to buy or rent others in their place. That is where I feel the Committee of Public Accounts has a very strong role.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

With regard to the sale of stations, as I said, once a station has been decommissioned or is no longer in use as a Garda station, it is very much up to the OPW to decide what to do with it. However, once the programme for Government made clear that the Government wanted six stations opened on a pilot basis, our initial action would have been to ask the OPW not to put any of the remaining estate up for sale until such time as this particular exercise had been completed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Anywhere in the country?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Chairman

Deputy Nugent - I am demoting Mr. Nugent to a Deputy. Mr. Nugent wishes to make a quick comment.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

If I may, I will answer Deputy Kelly's question. The date for that status update was 6 March. I have just had confirmation of that.

Chairman

I call Deputy Connolly.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

My question has already been answered. It arose during questions I asked. Mr. Nugent referred to a previous interim report. That is what happened. He has clarified that there was not a previous interim report-----

Mr. Joseph Nugent

No-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

That is okay.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

I am not going to tell the Deputy today. As far as I am concerned, they were both called interim reports, but the purpose of the March report was a status update, whereas the one in June was-----

Deputy Catherine Connolly

I am not holding Mr. Nugent to his words but when he replied to me he referred to a previous interim report.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

Yes.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

That is all. He is calling it either an interim report or a status update.

Chairman

I call Deputy Farrell, and then we will finish.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I seek a little clarity because I am not sure the question I asked was answered. There were six stations to be considered in this report when it was commissioned. Is that correct?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is correct.

Deputy Alan Farrell

When I asked Mr. Ó Cualáin whether additional stations were considered, I was clearly referring to stations over and above those six. He said there were four, which means ten stations were under consideration.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. There were six that the programme for Government looked to have considered, but we saw this as an opportunity to bring to the table other demands that were starting to emerge from a policing point of view which did not involve those six stations.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Such as what I alluded to in terms of where stations should be. Is that-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Exactly, yes.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Does Mr. Ó Cualáin recall how many there were in total, then, from his reading of this report yesterday or today, I assume?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

We will take it that six will have to be considered in the context of those that were closed down. Then, I think, two are being considered in the context of a new station being built to facilitate a demand that we have.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Are these new stations, new bricks and mortar, or new locations?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

New locations completely.

Deputy Alan Farrell

On top of that, there is clearly one other to which Mr. Ó Cualáin has alluded by name - Rush - which makes nine.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Rush is one of the six. Rush station was closed down and was-----

Deputy Alan Farrell

I was not aware it was one of the six.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It was. Rush station, which was closed under the station closures initiative, was still on the books of the OPW and had not been sold. Therefore, it could be considered for reopening in the context of this current piece of work.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Is that the singular criterion for its consideration?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No. It had to be in State ownership for us to consider it, but all of the other considerations-----

Deputy Alan Farrell

However, that was part of the consideration.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

-----then had to come into play.

Deputy Alan Farrell

However, part of the consideration was that the building happened to be in State ownership, as opposed to there being a policing requirement. Does ownership come into the Assistant Garda Commissioner's work-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

It does.

Deputy Alan Farrell

-----as head of An Garda Síochána? Is that appropriate?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The opening of any new station where we did not have a station before would have to be-----

Deputy Alan Farrell

Of course.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

A business case must be made.

Deputy Alan Farrell

We will take that for granted. I am just asking whether it is the job of the Assistant Garda Commissioner to present a business case from a financial perspective or from a policing perspective, or is it both?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

He or she would have to present the business case on a policing basis for the six stations that are being sought, but there would be a far bigger piece of work to be done in the context of the other new stations because it would involve the possible acquisition of property-----

Deputy Alan Farrell

I will ask the question again and be a bit more precise. Does the financial aspect of the location of a station, whether rebuild or new build, as well as the financial implication for the State, form part of the Assistant Garda Commissioner's consideration?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The only financial aspect the Assistant Garda Commissioner has to consider is whether the station is still in State ownership. He or she could not consider a station that had been sold and had to be bought back. In the case in question, he did not consider such stations.

Deputy Alan Farrell

That is acceptable. That makes sense. My question is whether the financial aspect is part of the criteria. Other than the six stations that were clearly in State ownership - otherwise they would not have been considered in the first place - and-or new builds based upon a policing model which clearly makes sense, my question is whether Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Driscoll had a condition in the report whereby he had to consider the financial implications for the Garda Vote, as opposed to policing, or pit it against-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No, he did not.

Chairman

Can Mr. Ó Cualáin clarify one last question for me? He said it is ultimately a matter for the Garda Commissioner to make a decision regarding the reopening of a Garda station. The Garda has proceeded and commenced the process with the OPW for consideration of Stepaside. There were a number of other stations on the list that the Garda sent to the Department of Justice and Equality on 9 June. Why has the Garda not proceeded with the list it sent to the Department of Justice and Equality, and why has the Garda proceeded with only one today? Has it proceeded or commenced with the others? If not, why not?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

To the extent that we have asked the OPW to retain those buildings on its books in order that we can progress them-----

Chairman

Regarding those others, the six that are on that list that the Garda sent to the Department of Justice and Equality, the Garda has actually made some initial moves regarding all of them. In the first instance, the Garda has told the OPW: "Please, do not sell those. We are looking at those for reopening."

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes.

Chairman

However, the Garda has gone a step further in commencing the preparations for Stepaside.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is correct.

Chairman

What is the Garda's timescale? It is not a Government decision; it is a Garda Commissioner's decision, which is Mr. Ó Cualáin's decision. When will he move the others on that list to the same stage as this?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

I would like-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

He is clearly waiting for Government instruction.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

No, I am not.

Chairman

He has told us it is not a Government decision but a Garda Commissioner's decision. Does the Garda have the resources to move on the other-----

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The final report will give us all six that are being recommended. The additional two - four were recommended in the interim report-----

Chairman

With only one to proceed straight away.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

One will proceed straight away and the others will be-----

Chairman

I thank Mr. Ó Cualáin.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

A tiny clarification-----

Chairman

No. We are-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I just want a tiny clarification. We can make several contributions.

Chairman

Yes, sorry.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I have a final question for both witnesses so I do not mind who answers it.

In terms of the timing, it was mentioned earlier that with regard to Stepaside there was already a process under way. Mr. Nugent has been in contact with the OPW to advance that as quickly as possible. In terms of the timeframe following that, is it fair to say that it has taken precedence over the capital investment in Garda stations which, for example, have been partly or fully condemned but which are still operational? I refer, for example, to stations where cells cannot be used. In Sligo Garda station, for example, cells cannot be used and people are being sent to Ballymote, 15 miles away. In terms of the procurement of a site and the construction of a station, with the current one clearly being not fit for purpose, in the order of priority is Stepaside higher on the list? Did Mr. Ó Cualáin decide that it ought to be higher up on the list? How was the timeframe determined or, conversely, is that being influenced by a higher power in the Department or politics?

Mr. Joseph Nugent

Discussions are ongoing. We met, for example, with the OPW this week to talk through the entire building refurbishment programme, including the status of the station in Sligo. It is not an issue of priority, rather it is an issue of the full programme and the capital decisions that will be made in the budget around capital availability for us. We will take all of those into the mix and will talk to the OPW about those. It is about the OPW's capacity, from a financial and timing point of view, to respond. What I am trying to get at is that there is a range of considerations that go beyond-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I ask the acting Garda Commissioner, from an operational - cops and robbers - perspective, what would be more of a priority? Would it be operating the cells at a regional centre like Sligo Garda station or re-opening the station at Stepaside, in terms of timing and priority, if the acting Garda Commissioner had a magic wand?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

There are lots of components that go into-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

It seems to be one or the other. Do we want operating cells in the north west region or do we want to open Stepaside more quickly? If it was a ying, yang question of one or the other, what would make the best sense?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

One would have to consider everything in the context-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I am asking the acting Garda Commissioner to consider this - is it about operating cells rather than transporting prisoners 15 miles?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

That is a big problem for us. It is a huge priority to get those matters resolved. They are being prioritised. It is not-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

With no police training, would it be reasonable for me to assume that operating cells would be more of a priority than opening another station?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

The question is: what is the alternative? I presume that people who are being detained by Sligo gardaí are being brought somewhere to be detained-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Indeed they are - 15 miles away.

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

Yes, so there has to be-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

There are a good few Garda stations within 15 miles of Stepaside, are there not?

Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin

In terms of the way things will be prioritised, there is other work coming out of that programme for Government that is dependent on this piece of work being implemented. That work is being carried-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I have a question for Mr. Nugent about what he said about wider consultation. As a committee, we accept that there must be wider consultation in relation to resources, but can we presume that the head of human resource management is fully consulted in all of these decisions?

Mr. Joseph Nugent

The question I was asked related to capital money, so-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

Mr. Nugent is the chief administrative officer, CAO, and I presume, in terms of line management, he reports to the acting Garda Commissioner. I presume that the head of human resources, HR, was also consulted because there is no point in reopening Garda stations if one does have staff. I presume that in the preparation of the interim reports and through all of this, the head of HR was fully consulted. I presume the question of whether An Garda Síochána could resource this was asked, for example.

Mr. Joseph Nugent

I think the question was asked of the divisions as to whether they were in a position to resource it.

Deputy Alan Kelly

An Garda Síochána has a head of HR. I am looking for a "Yes" or "No" answer. If he was not-----

Mr. Joseph Nugent

The answer is "I do not know". I am saying that Assistant Garda Commissioner O'Driscoll-----

Deputy Alan Kelly

I ask the acting Garda Commissioner if he will ask the head of HR to confirm to this committee that, in relation to both interim reports, the head of HR was fully consulted and will make a statement to that effect.

Chairman

The acting Garda Commissioner can come back to the committee on that.

Deputy Alan Kelly

I ask that he would revert to the committee on it.

Chairman

We will ask that a note be sent back to the committee on that issue. At this stage, I thank the acting Garda Commissioner and Mr. Nugent for their presence today.

Before we suspend, I seek agreement from members that we will go straight on to HIQA now and will defer dealing with our correspondence and other routine matters until the afternoon. Representatives from HIQA have been waiting outside for some time. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 10.55 a.m. and resumed at 11 a.m.