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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 28 Sep 2017

Health Information and Quality Authority: Financial Statement 2016

Mr. Phelim Quinn (Chief Executive Officer, Health Information and Quality Authority) called and examined.

For the benefit of people following the proceedings of the committee we will hold over, for the moment and maybe until the afternoon, dealing with the minutes from the previous meetings, correspondence, reports and the work programme. We will move directly to the HIQA financial statement 2016 at this stage. We thank the witnesses for waiting. We had unscheduled business to deal with first and we thank the witnesses for remaining with us.

This morning we will examine the 2016 financial statement for the Health Information and Quality Authority. I would like to welcome from HIQA, Mr. Phelim Quinn, chief executive officer, Ms Mary Dunnion, director of regulation and chief inspector of social services and Mr. Sean Angland, acting chief operating officer. I welcome from the Department of Health, Dr. Kathleen MacLellan and Mr. David Keating. I remind members, witnesses and those in the Gallery to turn off their mobile phones completely or to put them on airplane mode. If I missed somebody, my apologies.

I advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to make an opening statement on this matter.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The Health Information and Quality Authority was established in 2007. Its primary function is to monitor and regulate health and social care services, to develop standards and to advise on the collection and sharing of information across health care services. Much of its work is focused on inspections across the disability, older people's and children's sectors. Designated residential centres must register with the authority and pay fees which include a registration fee and an annual fee.

The authority's financial statement records total income in 2016 of €18.9 million. Approximately one third of the authority's income, or €6.8 million, came from fees paid by designated centres. Recurrent grant funding received from the Department of Health, under Vote 38, amounted to €11.5 million or just over 60% of the authority's total funding. Most of the remaining income is in the form of employee pension contributions, which are retained by the authority, and replace an equivalent amount of recurrent grant funding.

The authority's expenditure in 2016 was €18.3 million. As set out in the figure on screen, three quarters of the authority's expenditure relates to staff costs. In 2016, the authority's average headcount was 192, with 73% of those staff employed in regulation functions. Some 11% of the authority's total staff costs relate to agency staff.

I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the authority's financial statement for 2016, which was certified on 29 May 2017. However, my report drew attention to two specific matters. First, I drew attention to the authority's accounting treatment for pensions. The Act establishing the authority gives the Minister for Health, in consultation with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the authority to set the accounting framework for the authority. In doing so, the Minister has directed that pensions should be accounted for as they are paid, rather than as liabilities accrued, which generally accepted accounting practice requires. This directed accounting treatment for pensions is common to a number of health bodies, and the authority does not have discretion in the matter. As I promised last week, we are compiling a list of the accounting frameworks for all the bodies we audit, setting out such exceptions to generally accepted accounting practice.

The audit report also draws attention to note 18(a), which discloses costs incurred by the authority in 2016, in relation to exiting a lease related to an office building in Sandyford. The lease, which was not due to expire until 2028, was transferred from the former Irish Health Services Accreditation Board when the authority was established in 2007. The building was surplus to the authority's requirements and had been occupied by another health sector body, until that body moved to new premises in 2015. The authority incurred costs of €146,000, equivalent to six months rent, to break the lease, and €350,000 in relation to building restoration costs. The disposal of the lease also resulted in the write-off of the residual value of capitalised leasehold improvement costs of €491,771. In the circumstances, the authority had little option but to incur the costs. Nevertheless, the additional rent payment and the write-off of the residual value of the improvements represent expenditures for which the State did not receive value.

I thank the Chairman.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General. I call Mr. Quinn to make his opening statement.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

On behalf of HIQA, I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to address the Committee of Public Accounts this morning. I am accompanied by my colleagues, Ms Mary Dunnion, director of regulation and chief inspector of social services, and Sean Angland, acting chief operating officer. In the interest of being efficient with time and facilitating questions from members, I will address the key in my opening statement that has already been circulated to the committee.

HIQA is the independent body established ten years ago to improve health and social care services for the people of Ireland. Our role is to develop standards, inspect and review health and social care services, and support informed decisions on how services are delivered. Our mandate extends across a range of public, private and voluntary service sectors.

The Health Act 2007, which established HIQA, outlines our statutory functions and provides the basis for our work. Our remit has grown substantially over the past decade but our core activities remain the same. They are to monitor and regulate health and social care services; develop standards; carry out health technology assessments; and advise on the collection and sharing of information across health care services.

All these functions are focused on making services safer and better. We provide assurance to the public as to the quality of services and endeavour to ensure that the findings of our work are reflected in decision-making at local and national level. HIQA's primary aim is to safeguard vulnerable people. Putting the needs and the voices of the people who use services to the fore is the essence of everything that we do.

HIQA plans and manages its resources prudently to make certain that they are used efficiently and effectively as we carry out our statutory functions and deliver our corporate objectives. We are conscious of providing value for money and ensure that we are compliant with all relevant standards, regulations and legislation concerning our use of resources. HIQA derives its revenue from a mixture of public and private sources. In 2016, we were granted an allocation of just over €11.5 million from the Department of Health and also received just under €7 million in annual fees and registration fees from centres that are registered. We also earned €467,000 in other income such as pension contributions and grants. In 2016, we came in under budget and returned €519,000 to the Department of Health, primarily due to delays in the sanctioning of vacant and new posts.

Over two thirds of HIQA's expenditure goes on staff costs, which amounted to just over €14 million last year. Our headcount in December 2016 was 192 permanent staff and that now stands at 209 staff. Subject to sanction from the Department of Health, we plan that this figure will grow to 227 based on current funding. In addition, a number of staff are employed through agencies and on fixed-term contracts. The majority of permanent staff, and that is 144 of our staff, work within the regulation directorate.

In our code of governance and code of business conduct, we have set out key roles and responsibilities within HIQA and the procedures and protocols that are core to our good governance. As well as policies and procedures for governing the business of the board, we also set out guidelines for ensuring that the authority conducts its business ethically. The code describes the obligations on staff, board members and individuals contracted by the authority in the performance of their duties, and includes requirements for making declarations of interest as set out in Ethics in Public Office Acts.

In recent years we have significantly strengthened internal controls and governance arrangements through an annual statement of assurance to the board. We have also reviewed our compliance with the new code of practice for the governance of State bodies as part of our internal audit programme. HIQA is currently being assessed for compliance with the National Standards Authority of Ireland’s SWiFT 3000 code of practice for corporate governance assessment. The process is near completion and we expect to be awarded certification shortly. In HIQA, we recognise the importance of external and independent oversight and we are open to and welcome such oversight.

The Comptroller and Auditor General in his audit of our financial statements in 2016 provided a clean audit report. The C&AG referenced two items: accounting for the costs of superannuation payments and the exit of a lease. In accounting for superannuation payment, as directed by the Minister for Health, we account for pension costs as they arise rather than accruing for them. The exit of a lease relates to a lease that was transferred to HIQA from the Irish Health Services Accreditation Board, a predecessor organisation, upon HIQA’s establishment. We are happy to answer any questions the committee has on these matters.

Since the recruitment moratorium was imposed in 2009, as many other bodies, HIQA has had to seek specific approval for the filling of every post it wants to fill. The situation in which every vacancy that arises and every new post sought requires external sanction creates significant operational challenges for an independent body such as HIQA. While there has been an improvement in this process, delays in filling posts impact on our operational capacity, particularly in the area of the regulation of services. It also has the potential to create additional operational costs where temporary staff are required to complete our work. We are very conscious of the importance of strategic resource planning and have recently submitted to the Department a strategic workforce plan that details how current risks within the regulated environment and future functions should be addressed.

HIQA’s organisational structure reflects our core functions and activities. HIQA’s regulation directorate is the biggest in the authority and is responsible for promoting improvement in specified health and social care services in Ireland by regulating the quality and safety of the services. HIQA has statutory responsibility for registering and inspecting designated social care services. So far this year, we have carried out 650 inspections of designated centres for people with disabilities and over 450 inspections of designated centres for older people. Of the inspections of centres for older people, 90 were themed inspections focused on the care given to people with dementia. The number of designated centres is continually increasing and diversifying, which in turn affects our workload.

HIQA has statutory responsibility for monitoring and inspecting children’s social services, including children’s statutory residential centres, special care units, child protection services and Oberstown child detention campus. We also have a statutory responsibility for monitoring foster care services against the national standards for foster care. So far this year we have conducted a total of 38 inspections of children’s services. We are also responsible for monitoring the safety and quality of health services and investigating, as necessary, serious concerns about the health and welfare of people who use these services. As a result of the limitations in numbers of our health care team to date, our health care programmes have been thematic, focused on inspecting nutrition and hydration care in our acute hospital sector, reviewing how public acute hospitals are tackling antimicrobial stewardship and medicines management and monitoring acute hospitals’ compliance with the relevant national standards. The total number of inspections carried out by HIQA across all of these sectors has increased from 920 in 2013 to 1,477 in 2016. This represents an increase of over 60% in the number of inspections carried out in those three years. Since our establishment we have also conducted eight statutory investigations, and we have recently commenced a new investigation into Tusla’s management of allegations of child sexual abuse against adults of concern, as requested by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

We are responsible for developing a consistent and standardised approach to health information, based on standards and international best practice. Health and social care services are information dependent, generating huge volumes of data every day. It is important that such information is managed in the most effective way possible in order to ensure high quality, safe health and social care delivery. We also work with stakeholders to develop national standards for health and social care services and for people living in residential services. Such standards include standards for children's residential centres and the draft national standards for the prevention and control of health care associated infections in primary and community care and also in acute hospital services.

The national patient experience survey is a joint initiative led by HIQA with the HSE and the Department of Health. It is the largest single survey of the health care system ever conducted in Ireland. The first survey was conducted in May 2017 and will now run annually. Almost 14,000 hospital patients responded to the 61-question survey which translates to a response rate of 51%. We plan to publish the national report this December along with 39 acute hospital reports.

HIQA is also responsible for providing advice that enables the best outcome for people who use our health service and the best use of resources by evaluating the clinical effectiveness and cost-effectiveness of drugs, equipment, diagnostic technologies and health promotion and protection activities. Health Technology Assessments, HTAs, are undertaken at the request of the Minister and his Department or at the request of the HSE to inform major health policy or health service decisions. We are currently undertaking a HTA on extending the national immunisation schedule to include providing the HPV vaccine to boys. Another example of a HTA published earlier this year was an assessment of smoking cessation interventions.

HIQA is a highly efficient and productive organisation that carries out a broad and ever growing range of activities. We are working with the Government to ensure our resources and processes meet the range of new areas of responsibility to be included under HIQA’s growing remit. Areas where it is planned that HIQA’s role will grow in the foreseeable future include the regulation of patient exposure to medical ionising radiation; the formal regulation of children’s residential centres, which will include voluntary and private sector services; and the expansion of the national patient experience survey to include areas such as maternity services. Furthermore, we will continue to participate and contribute to the preparatory work in developing a licensing model for public and private health care facilities, expanded functions under the health information and patient safety Bill and expansion into new areas of social care regulation such as home care services.

Today I have provided a brief overview of HIQA’s current and future work. As an organisation, over the past ten years we have contributed positively and constructively to public confidence in Ireland’s systems of health and social care regulation, standard setting and evidence based strategic advice. At all times we have endeavoured to be an exemplar organisation in our internal governance systems and have endeavoured through our performance to provide value for money, efficiency and accountability. I thank the committee for inviting us here this morning and am very happy to answer any questions it has.

I thank Mr. Quinn. Before we take questions from members of the committee, members have asked that I be strict on the time for each speaker, to give everybody an opportunity to get in within a reasonable time. The first speaker will have 20 minutes and the second will have 15. That includes questions and answers. Everybody else will have a ten-minute slot and people will be able to come back for a second opportunity later on but to give everybody an opportunity to get in reasonably early, we will confine it to those times. The speakers have indicated in the following sequence: Deputy Peter Burke, Deputy Catherine Connolly, Deputy Marc MacSharry and Deputy Alan Kelly.

I welcome the witnesses and commend them on their good work in the health sector. HIQA has a huge role in protecting the most vulnerable in society. The annual report and opening statement give us a flavour of how it goes about that business. In terms of our role, I want to ask a few questions about the financial decisions, value for money and financial performance. On the organisation's property portfolio, I understand from reading the accounts that HIQA leases buildings in Cork, Smithfield and Headford Road in Galway.

Has Mr. Angland a breakdown of staff numbers in these locations? There was an average headcount of 192 in the 2016 report.

Mr. Sean Angland

We have approximately 110 people in the Dublin office, 92 in the Cork office and a small office in Galway with eight people allocated to it.

There is a 20-year lease at €1.1 million per annum for the Smithfield office, which was signed in 2008. That is a significant amount of money for property at that time. The initial bank guarantee was introduced then. Is there an independent valuation for that rent? Looking at HIQA’s establishment costs, what seems unusual is that its service charges are nearly €100,000, security, €116,000, and refuse, €75,000. This brings just the building costs to over €1.5 million, which is significant for an organisation with such a turnover.

Mr. Sean Angland

The building in Smithfield is, as are all our buildings, in the portfolio of the Office of Public Works, OPW. The lease is in the name of the OPW which has taken it out on our behalf. The building was procured in the earlier part of 2008. It was acquired and the rent was agreed before the dip in the market.

As regards all the other services, they have been procured under Office of Government Procurement, OGP, frameworks. They represent value for money in the sense that they are completely in line with national frameworks and contracts which have been negotiated with the buying power of the OGP.

I presume the OPW would have an independent valuation for that building.

Is it correct that HIQA does not pay any rent for its Cork building?

Mr. Sean Angland

That is correct. Again, it is an OPW lease but it was acquired as part of the decentralisation programme. We do not pay the lease directly ourselves. The OPW pays it to the landlord. The Deputy may recall that when the decentralisation programme was rolled out, one of the incentives to encourage public bodies to relocate to other parts of the country was that the OPW would centrally bear the charges of the building.

Is that indefinite?

Mr. Sean Angland

That is our understanding.

There are 92 staff there. That has increased from 2016. There are eight in Galway.

Mr. Sean Angland

That is correct.

I would be concerned about the value of the lease. Will Mr. Angland come back to us on this through the OPW?

On the lease for the office at The Mall, Beacon Court, that was terminated, the rent on that was €293,000 annually. Obviously, there was a significant write-off cost. Was there any thought about subletting this premises? What was the thought behind the decision to cut and leave the property?

Mr. Sean Angland

We made a number of attempts to dispose of the property at one point. In the first instance, as the Comptroller and Auditor General set out, it was a property which HIQA acquired from a predecessor body, the Irish Health Services Accreditation Board, which was wound up on the establishment of HIQA in 2007. All of its assets and liabilities, as well as property, were transferred to HIQA. As the Comptroller and Auditor General set out, the property was not of use to HIQA.

We attempted on several occasions to ask the OPW to take the property on to its portfolio and allocate it elsewhere in the public sector. However, the OPW did not want to do that. We made efforts at various stages to dispose of the property through the private sector. We engaged with an estate agent in 2009 to do that but, again, that did not prove successful. That reflected where the market was then. For several years, through the Department of Health, we persuaded another public body to occupy it to ensure the public was getting value for money for the period of the lease.

This body was paying rent.

Mr. Sean Angland

The rent was paid by HIQA. We were both Department of Health-funded bodies.

Did it come within HIQA’s budget?

Mr. Sean Angland

Yes, the budget was allocated from it.

Was this body absorbing some of HIQA’s budget?

Mr. Sean Angland

It would have taken on some of the service charges and so on.

That was apportioned to it but HIQA was absorbing the rent.

Mr. Sean Angland

We were absorbing the rent. Both bodies were funded by the Department of Health. Rather than getting into any convoluted-----

That would not be ideal for HIQA.

Mr. Sean Angland

It was not ideal for us as an organisation. However, as I said, both bodies were funded by the Department of Health. Rather than getting into a convoluted accounting arrangement, we continued to bear the rent.

We were always aware there was a break in the lease coming up in Easter 2016. The plan was that when the OPW did not want to take on the property, we would avail of that opportunity to break the lease, rather than being tied into it for another 12 or 13 years.

My concern is about us getting a take on an organisation’s budgets. For example, the rent in Cork is €370,000 but HIQA does not pay it as the OPW absorbs it. In the Beacon Court case, there was a tenant with HIQA which absorbed that body’s rent costs. It does not give us a fair reflection of the budget. HIQA states it has a budget of €18 million. However, there are areas of expenditure which are not clear and are not spent on HIQA. This has come up time and time again with the OPW. We saw it with An Garda Síochána and the decision on decentralisation. It does not give us a fair take on an organisation’s budget.

Mr. Sean Angland

For every year concerned, the accounts will have contained a detailed note where all of these points would have been set out.

To use a word Mr. Angland used, it is a bit convoluted.

Mr. Sean Angland

It is not straightforward.

Trade accruals increased by 40%. Is there any particular reason for that?

Mr. Sean Angland

That is purely a timing issue at year end.

It does not represent a significant change then.

Mr. Sean Angland

No, absolutely not.

The summary of human resources states the headcount is 178 actual for year ended December but the accounts state it is 192. Is there a reason why these are different? In appendix 2 of its business plan for 2017, it sets out a human resources summary. This details the actual headcount for the year end of 2016 by the various different units. Its accounts also detail the actual headcount for December 2016 but both figures differ.

Mr. Sean Angland

The notice of the financial statements are the audited numbers, which are an average headcount. It takes the average headcount at the end of each month and averaged over the year-end.

I presume the accounts are per week as per P35.

Mr. Sean Angland

At the end of each pay period, they are averaged.

In terms of the summary, which is projected to go to 227 for December 2017, on what basis are these calculated?

Mr. Sean Angland

The 227 figure is a projected number as opposed to the 192 which is an actual number.

The 178 should be an actual number which is in the business plan in theory. What way does HIQA calculate the employees it has referenced on that?

Mr. Sean Angland

The business plan is obviously based on a projection going forward-----

I understand that but it is not clear what happened in 2016.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

By the end of 2016, we certainly had 192 substantive employees. Again, on the 2017 business plan, there is a plan, from our budget from the Department of Health and from the accrual of annual fees, to bring our headcount up to 227. This was accounted for within that particular budget.

I see the point Mr. Quinn is making but I am making a different point. When one is doing a business plan for the year ahead, it is based on a comparative of what happened in the previous year. In this case, this is 2016 and is mirrored in the accounts. In theory they should equal each other but they do not. Maybe they were calculated differently. Maybe it was based on actual people at that time.

It could be as a basis of the weeks they worked. It could be a different calculation. Maybe it is something to look at.

Staff costs went up by 6.5%. Looking at note 4, pensions went up by 72% to €728,000 from €422,000. What is driving that?

Mr. Sean Angland

We operate pensions, as the Comptroller and Auditor General referred to, on a pay-as-you-go basis and we had a number of retirements during the year, which is driving that. The lump sum payments to individual pensioners will be fed into the 2016 number. Four individuals received lump sums.

Four individuals received a lump sum payment which is included in the pension figure.

Mr. Sean Angland

Correct.

That is as opposed to it being an increase from last year. The wages, with an increase of six or so people in HIQA's staff, seem to have increased by a fair amount. Is it 6.5%? What is driving that increase? Did people get an increase during the year?

Mr. Sean Angland

Everyone in HIQA is on standard Civil Service rates so some individuals would have received increments but the main driver is the increased headcount, which drives the wages and salaries figure too.

It would not be that. That would mean six people had €867,000 which would be a significant amount for the wage to be driven up by. Mr. Angland might address the point about subsistence. I know HIQA staff probably have much travelling to do but if it was worked out, the €805,000 for subsistence fees and travel etc. for members of staff, if one assumes that every member of staff is travelling, it amounts to over €4,000 per person. That is obviously a significant amount. How does HIQA monitor and check that? Are there robust internal control procedures?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Absolutely. We said that the largest proportion of our staffing group is within the regulation directorate. The geographic location and spread of designated centres for older persons, people with a disability, hospitals and children's social services is such that they are dispersed widely across the entire country. That means, on the basis of staff location, that in some instances very significant travel and subsistence costs are accrued during the inspection and monitoring processes. We would have a very tight monitoring regime for the approval of staff expenses, making sure that they are actually and necessarily accrued.

Is HIQA happy with the geographic locations of its offices and that they are not driving up any of those costs?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

A fresh matter for us is that, within HIQA, we are looking at a strategic accommodation strategy and creativity about the location of our staff and the way in which they are managed and supervised in the context of that accommodation strategy. It has the potential to develop new ways of home working for staff which locates them nearer to services which are being regulated but also makes sure that there is face-to-face management of those staff when they are home workers. All of that will be developed during the process.

Might HIQA get savings during that process?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We hope that would generate savings.

On note 8 in the accounts, about professional fees, it says that "Other" accounts for €347,000. Is there more detail on that? What type of consultancy is it?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We would use a range of types of consultancy. In 2016, amounts were used for human resources, ICT systems development and part of our inspection and monitoring processes for which we sometimes have to engage experts on the subject matter to help us.

Is that all tendered for?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes. We sometimes have to engage with subject matter experts for standards development and the development of health technology assessments because the subject matter expertise would not be housed specifically within HIQA.

There is an 11% increase in HIQA's budget for agency staff. Give us a background for why agency employment is increasing. Is that all tendered for?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We would have contracts with specific agencies that were tendered for under proper procurement processes. The critical issues in 2016 with regard to the increase in agency staff related to a number of specific issues. I referred in the opening statement to the national patient experience survey. We engaged a number of agency staff as part of the development of the survey and its methodology. Similarly, during the course of 2016 and 2017, we developed a new or enhanced approach to monitoring which makes our assessments and judgments more evidence-based. We had some agencies to backfill our own expertise to enable and free up some of that expertise in-house. We have used agencies for very specific issues over the course of 2016 that I believe can be accounted for.

Was it a shock to HIQA that it was not accounting for its VAT correctly?

Mr. Sean Angland

An error was made in accounting for very specific VAT transactions over a period. The committee may be aware that, in 2010, changes were made with regard to how businesses account for VAT on services purchased from overseas. The onus was therefore on the purchaser to self-account. At the time we registered, continued to account for and made the returns for VAT on all overseas purchases that we made. We identified ourselves in 2016 that there was a particular subset of purchases, particularly for electronically-supplied services, for which we had not correctly accounted for VAT. We reported to that to the Revenue as soon as we identified it, made a self-declaration, paid the interest and penalties, and we have since put improved systems in place to ensure that we capture those immediately and account for them.

Considering that HIQA spent close to €100,000 on accountancy and audit services, how did it come to HIQA's attention?

Mr. Sean Angland

It was uncovered internally by a member of the accounts team.

So it was not anyone HIQA was paying for services? It was not HIQA's accountants or audit function but a member of its own permanent staff?

Mr. Sean Angland

Correct.

That must be disappointing, considering how much HIQA pays in accountancy fees.

Mr. Sean Angland

Most of what comes under audit and accountancy is the fees to the Comptroller and Auditor General and the fee for brought-in internal auditors, who cover a very wide range of activities. A full audit is carried out every year by our internal audit of internal financial controls. The amount we are looking at in any one year is tiny. In the overall scheme of things, in any one year, it would-----

HIQA obviously has assurances from the Revenue that everything else is okay then, does it?

Mr. Sean Angland

We are confident that it is.

Mr. Angland is confident. Is HIQA's agency budget directly related to the embargo which prevents it from recruiting enough people in key areas?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Not absolutely and specifically. There is certainly an agency cost accrual as a result of the slowness in the sanctioning of certain posts. For example, the slowness in the sanctioning of inspection posts would never cause agency costs to accrue because we can never bring in agencies for inspection. That would still account for a proportion but, as I said before, there were critical issues last year, some of which would have been known to the Department of Health, for example the issue with regard to the development of the national patient experience survey. There were specific process issues that needed to be dealt with, for example the development of a privacy impact assessment and the development of the Delphi study. We had to bolster our team at that point to make sure those issues were conducted appropriately.

Finally, on HIQA's business plan for 2017, I note that 83% of its actions have a target date of December 2017. Will it be a very busy month or is HIQA on course for the predominant amount of actions in the plan?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

A number are now complete and others are on target for December 2017. As the Deputy can imagine, a number of these business plan objectives relate to our legal functions so it stretches across the entire year.

I thank the witness for his time.

I welcome the witnesses. It strikes me that they are overstretched and understaffed, particularly if I consider the range of activities in which they are involved. Perhaps I might come back to the range of activities that has increased. All of us have just received a letter from Tallaght hospital, at which HIQA carried out a statutory inquiry in 2011 and 2017. As I only have a few minutes, I will not read it out but the letter is an absolutely appalling reflection. HIQA did a very good inquiry. There is reference to people on trolleys, with the oldest aged 77. I may come back to sanctions and follow-up, and where energy and staff should be directed. That is instead of them being spread so widely, from inspections of disability services, old person and nursing homes and down to checking whether doctors and dentists in Galway and elsewhere are washing their hands. That is low on the list of criteria. What rent is being paid by HIQA now?

Mr. Sean Angland

We are paying rent on an office in Dublin.

I heard that. What is the total rent being paid? Is it over €1 million?

Mr. Sean Angland

Yes.

What is the precise amount?

Mr. Sean Angland

The annual rent payable in Dublin is €1,155,752.

What about Galway?

Mr. Sean Angland

It is €13,750.

Was the authority also paying rent in Cork parallel with this rent in Dublin?

Mr. Sean Angland

No, we have never paid that rent.

The Office of Public Works was paying rent.

Mr. Sean Angland

Correct.

Was it paying rent for that building in parallel with HIQA paying rent for the Dublin and Galway offices?

Mr. Sean Angland

It is currently paying rent on the Cork building.

I thought the lease was broken.

Mr. Sean Angland

In Sandyford.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It was in Sandyford in Dublin.

What about the building that HIQA inherited?

Mr. Sean Angland

That was in Sandyford.

It was inherited in 2007.

Mr. Sean Angland

That is right.

That is where the lease was broken. Am I correct in saying that the amount was over €1 million by the time everything was taken into account? Was it just under €1 million?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It was just under.

There was a penalty cost for breaking the lease, restoration costs and a cost to cover the eventuality of the building being surrendered. Are the witnesses telling me that, in addition to those penalties, the Office of Public Works was paying rent every year up to 2016 in parallel with HIQA paying rent on its building?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The rent paid by the Office of Public Works on the Cork office is for a separate building. In the context of this conversation, there were four buildings, three of which we retain. These are in Cork, Smithfield in Dublin and Galway. There was an additional building in Sandyford that we inherited from the predecessor organisation. That is where we broke the lease.

My question is clear. Was the rent being paid on that building until the lease was broken?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes.

It was in addition to what HIQA was paying for its offices.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes.

Okay. That is clear. Why was the building not suitable for HIQA?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It was too small. The accommodation in Sandyford would have accommodated up to 40 people.

Was it not all set out when HIQA took over that the building was too small?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

My predecessor would have been able to set it out very clearly at the time that there certainly were significant projections around both the future role and functions of HIQA. At that time, HIQA, in conjunction with the Office of Public Works, had identified and relocated to a more suitable premises that would meet the current and future needs of the organisation.

There are parallel processes. A building remained virtually empty except for CORU, which regulates health and social care professionals.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes.

That was the only organisation occupying the building, with massive rent being paid, and there was almost €1 million in terms of penalties and costs to get out of it. I understand the logic of breaking the lease - something similar happened in Galway - but is it not an absolute scandal that rent was paid at horrific cost and that there was a penalty to escape the lease? HIQA pays huge rent in Dublin as well.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I agree that it appears unreasonable.

What is the cost of agency staff? How many staff are employed under that heading?

Mr. Sean Angland

We currently have 30 agency staff and the cost was just over €1.5 million in 2016.

That has increased, has it not? The witnesses have given some reasons for the increase.

Mr. Sean Angland

Yes.

It has gone up significantly.

Mr. Sean Angland

It is up a bit.

It is up significantly, is it not? The rent is detailed on page 28 of the accounts. The rent in 2015 was €1.5 million and in 2016 it was €1.238 million. Will the witnesses explain that?

Mr. Sean Angland

That is because we were no longer paying for the Sandyford building.

Mr. Sean Angland

The Sandyford building was included in the €1.5 million for 2015.

Lovely. That is why the figure is lower. What is the building service charge of almost €100,000? It is €94,703.

Mr. Sean Angland

That would have to do with shared costs in the buildings we have.

What does that mean?

Mr. Sean Angland

It relates to light and heat for shared areas, some car parking and some communal security.

Who else is in the building?

Mr. Sean Angland

In the Dublin office, we currently share the building with the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Law Society.

There are no private companies in the building.

Mr. Sean Angland

No.

Every hospital and disability unit pays a registration fee. Is that not correct?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

No. Registration fees arise out of those services that are more formally regulated, registered and inspected by the chief inspector of social services, my colleague, Ms Mary Dunnion.

Will the witnesses clarify that?

Ms Mary Dunnion

There are 1,190 designated centres for adults and children with disabilities and there are almost 600 designated centres for older persons. In that context, they pay a registration fee of €500, which covers the registration for a tenure of three years. This is laid down in legislation and it is a regulation.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Thereafter, they pay a registration annual cost of €183 per bed and that is divided into three payments over the year. It is a statutory payment laid down in regulations and it has not changed since the regulations began.

There is a €500 registration fee set out in legislation over ten years.

Ms Mary Dunnion

No. Every designated centre gets its registration renewed every three years.

It is three years.

Ms Mary Dunnion

There is a three-year fee and it is €500.

There is a cost in addition to that.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes, there is an annual fee. That is €183 per bed. In the context of older persons, there are 32,000 beds, and in disability services would be 6,000 or so beds. When we register a centre, we do not register a service but we register a physical building and the number of beds in it. It is an area about which we have spoken quite a bit because we see it as an area of potential improvement.

I will not mention anywhere but we could take a unit in Galway with beds treating people with disabilities. Every year it pays HIQA a registration fee for the bed.

Ms Mary Dunnion

It pays an annual registration fee for the bed and it pays a fee every three years for the registration process.

All of these organisations that are struggling and receiving Government funding, or perhaps raising money through charity, must channel that amount back to HIQA, another Government body.

Ms Mary Dunnion

It is set down in regulations.

I am just asking for clarity.

Ms Mary Dunnion

The Deputy is quite correct. That would be the payment cycle for a registered centre.

All of these organisations are struggling, are they not? They must come up with this money every year to register with HIQA because of the legislation.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

Why is the figure for registration fees lower? It seems to be down by 36%. It is on page 25.

Mr. Sean Angland

As the chief inspector outlined, the registration fees are due every three years.

Mr. Sean Angland

There is not an even number of registrations year on year. In the first year, for example, there would be a higher number. There is some volatility in the cycle.

There was a lower number of registrations in 2016 and hence a lower number of fees that year.

I cannot remember if Deputy Burke dealt with professional fees. If he did, I will not cover it again. It is on page 27 of the accounts. Did he deal with it?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

He certainly dealt with some aspects of it.

What was the explanation for it?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We were looking at a more detailed breakdown of the nature of some of the costs. I said that some of them arose from consultancy on pensions and human resources, some from support and consultancy on ICT services and preparation for the national patient safety experience survey. They are the main areas of expenditure in respect of our professional fees and there are also legal fees. Obviously, HIQA works in the context of a legal framework and so has to engage external legal advices for preparation for court, and also for preparation in respect of enforcement activity.

I have looked at many of HIQA's reports. It has carried out eight statutory reports. Did any of those relate to hospitals in Galway?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes, one of the investigations was in University Hospital Galway. I think it was in 2015 or 2014 and it related to a death in the maternity services there.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The death occurred in November 2012. It was a very publicised death, that of Savita Halappanavar. The bulk of the investigation was carried out in the course of 2013 and the report was published in 2014.

We have all had correspondence regarding Tallaght hospital, at which HIQA carried out a statutory investigation. Did it do so on its own initiative or was it directed to do so by the Minister?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The statutory investigation into Tallaght hospital was initiated by HIQA. At that time, HIQA and its board felt the circumstances in Tallaght met the threshold whereby we believed there was a significant threat to the health and well-being of service users.

This is a general query and I am just using Tallaght as an example. I am sure that my colleague will come back to this for more specific detail. I have a letter from a consultant in the accident and emergency department who is going out on a limb. We know how difficult it is for professionals to do that in Irish society. I will return to the matter of whistleblowers. This consultant highlights the level of overcrowding and the practice of admitting "boarders" - an unfortunate word, but he means people on trolleys - which, he states, "is never acceptable and is dangerous". The position in Galway is similar. It is dangerous. Those are not my words.

I am using different examples because I do not wish to be parochial. We have a situation at Merlin Park University Hospital where the roof is leaking and orthopaedic surgery cannot continue. At HIQA's board meetings, how is the decision made to carry out investigations? Will it return to Tallaght when it sees this? Will it go to Galway and look at Merlin Park where the roof is leaking and where orthopaedic surgery cannot be performed? Will it go to the accident and emergency department in Galway city where people, particularly those accessing the psychiatric unit, are walking out? What is its policy on inquiries?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I will introduce this and pass it on to my colleague. In recent years we have been very clear about how we receive information that indicates where risk exists within our health and social care services. As a result, we initiated a regulatory risk register process in 2015. This is an escalation process whereby when our inspectors receive information or observe information at the point of inspection, they can return and indicate the level of risk to their line managers. If the risk is deemed to be of a significant nature, it is then brought up to the higher reaches of the organisation to enable us to consider the appropriate actions to be taken.

Would someone have alerted HIQA to the situation in Galway where the roof is leaking?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Perhaps not so much regarding the leak in the roof. If, however, any information about the situation in Galway was received by ourselves, it would be brought to the health care team which would risk assess that information and escalate as appropriate. I will ask my colleague to come in here.

My time is running out. While Mr. Quinn is addressing this, it seems that, notwithstanding the work of his excellent staff and the inspection regime, there is a reliance on whistleblowers. When I looked at the documentation and as is the case with every subject that comes before the committee, it became obvious that, notwithstanding all this regulation, we are dependent on whistleblowers.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We receive significant amounts of what we would call unsolicited information, some of which comes from whistleblowers. However, we also have methods by means of which we assimilate information from the health and social care system and analyse it on an ongoing basis. Furthermore, there is a process of statutory notifications from the regulated sector. We take in those notifications and analyse them in every single instance. We also have the observations made at the point of inspection. Under our monitoring approach, all that information is drawn together and risk assessments are made.

I will return to this in a supplementary question but I would ask Ms Dunnion to comment.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Deputy Connolly alluded to HIQA's spectrum of activities. A total of 13 people work in the health care team. When we look at regulation, health care is not a regulated service. We only have a monitoring function in respect of regulation. Deputy Connolly is correct in alluding to Tallaght. We made recommendations there and I was on the investigation team. We have no powers under the Health Act, nor does the health care team, to do anything in the context of implementation. We are not reneging on our responsibility; the responsibility for service provision lies with those who fund and deliver the service. As a result of the fact that the health care team is so small, we take what would be considered a risk in the national context in respect of services. For example, as Mr. Quinn alluded to in his opening remarks, for this year we looked at medicines management and antimicrobial stewardship because we would see - and the evidence supports this - that the proper use of antibiotics and driving that improvement in health care is a significant matter behind which we can put our weight and achieve good outcomes. The reports that we have published show that change.

The Deputy is correct about a team of that number of staff and without any powers holding service providers to account. It is different in the context of designated and older persons because those are regulated services. It is two prongs within the-----

Could Ms Dunnion explain that for the public?

Ms Mary Dunnion

If one opened a nursing home today, one would apply to HIQA for in order to register it. One would go through administration regulations, which refer to forms and so on, and then the welfare regulations, which relate to what one must provide for residents living in the home. Thereafter, the regulation director, through HIQA, would inspect that service. If the service is compliant with the regulations, which are nationally mandated, then the service is compliant. That is where the strength of regulation comes in because if residents, who are the most vulnerable people, do not receive the service to the level they ought to, then we have powers under the regulation. Those powers can range from warning the provider or curtailing the number of admissions until the provider has improved the service. It can go as far as the cancellation of a registration.

In the areas of health care and children, none of those powers exist in regulation. Our powers there are in monitoring the services. We report our findings to the accountable person, namely, the provider of the service and its funders.

Does HIQA have more powers in respect of nursing homes-----

Ms Mary Dunnion

And in disability.

-----than in hospitals?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We have no powers in respect of hospitals aside from the power to go in, monitor the service and publish a report.

I do not think that the public understands that subtle difference.

Ms Mary Dunnion

I agree. It is the same in the case of a statutory investigation. One conducts a statutory investigation because there is a recognised risk to the welfare of a group of people using a service - we do not investigate individual cases - and, in that context, we make recommendations. Thereafter, however, HIQA's role in ensuring that the recommendations are implemented ceases. We do not have any role in that regard; our role is one of investigating, reporting and publishing.

I thank the witnesses for coming before us. I have been in and out of the meeting. If, therefore, I cover any matters that have already been dealt with, the witnesses can tell me and I will not delay proceedings.

According to the annual report, HIQA had 13,034 items under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014.

Did anybody cover any of this yet? Are there any worrying trends there?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Certainly, they would not necessarily be protected disclosures. They would be issues of concern. In answer to the last question, I referred to unsolicited information. We have quite a stream of information arising from users of services.

What differentiates them? Does it have to state, "This is a protected disclosure"?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

No, it does not.

If I write a letter stating that I have a problem with nursing home X or hospital Y, is that included?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It would be. However, we believe that under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014, we must treat all information as if it might actually become a protected disclosure. Our information handling centre and our policies and procedures take account of that. While they cannot absolutely be recorded as protected disclosures, as we do not have that information from the person, I assure the Deputy that we process that information in the same way that we process protected disclosures under the 2014 Act.

If I have to cut in on Mr. Quinn while he is answering, I do not mean any disrespect. It is only because I am getting what I need and want to move on to some other issue.

Are there worrying trends? Is there a very substantial number relating to staff or from the public? Is it more about old folks' homes, or hospitals and accident and emergency departments? Are trends developing?

Ms Mary Dunnion

In the quantum of the services we monitor and regulate, it is not a big number. The majority relate to the regulated services we talked about, namely disability and older persons' services. Those are generally related to care issues. As Mr. Quinn outlined, we initiate a review of that in the context of the person responsible for the service needing to investigate the concern and report back to us.

Is there a common denominator?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes. It is generally around care and welfare issues.

So, care and welfare. Is it mainly in hospitals or the private sector; in public hospitals or private hospitals?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We do not have any jurisdiction in private health care.

Does HIQA not register private operators?

Ms Mary Dunnion

In disability and older persons, we do, but in health care, we only monitor public hospitals.

And children? Did children not transfer to HIQA lately?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Which?

I am referring to children with autism who would be placed in a house when residential operations are closing down? These private operators are buying houses and renting them to the HSE, but they themselves must be registered. I think that under new regulations the witnesses are the regulatory authority.

Ms Mary Dunnion

That has not happened yet. It is estimated to happen in 2018.

Okay. As such, we are talking only about the public sector. Is it spread out or is it specific to, for example, accident and emergency or residential settings?

Ms Mary Dunnion

In fact, we do not get a huge number of concerns from the acute health service.

Is there a filtering system such that things do not make it into the 1,334?

Ms Mary Dunnion

No. Everything is there. Everything is recorded in that.

It seems low. Does Ms Dunnion agree?

Ms Mary Dunnion

It is.

I have probably 1,500 a year personally.

Ms Mary Dunnion

It is low because what the regulator would hope is that a person with a concern takes it to the provider responsible for it. When they come to us, it is only, perhaps, when all of those means have been exhausted.

They have been in to see their Deputy, because we all get 1,500 a year.

Ms Mary Dunnion

They never tell us that bit, but yes.

Are many of them from the Oireachtas?

Ms Mary Dunnion

No. Is this in the concerns?

Yes. Of the 1,334, how many are from Oireachtas Members?

Ms Mary Dunnion

I do not have a breakdown in the context of that, but we can look.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Certainly, we receive letters of concern from Oireachtas Members.

Good. Is there a typical length of time? Has a metric been done on the time it typically takes to investigate and see through one of these issues?

Ms Mary Dunnion

They are literally responded to at the moment in time of receiving because there is always somebody to speak to. That process is in place, so most are responded to instantly. If they come in writing, they are responded to within 48 hours. What happens thereafter will be determined by whatever the concern is. I assure the committee that we have a very rigorous process so that no concern is left unaddressed.

Have any of the 1,334 been from HIQA's own staff and, if so, how many?

Ms Mary Dunnion

These concerns are related specifically to the services we regulate. Is the Deputy asking about our staff bringing up concerns about a service?

Ms Mary Dunnion

That would be included in the monitoring or the regulation activity.

It is not included in the 1,334.

Ms Mary Dunnion

No.

If a staff member made a complaint, would it be registered in that; a complaint made within HIQA on any of its own flaws?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We have our own internal complaints process and an externally-facing complaints process.

But that is a separate number.

Ms Mary Dunnion

These ones relate totally to the services we regulate and monitor.

What is the breakdown in terms of staff, people who use the services and the general public?

Ms Mary Dunnion

I could certainly get that for the Deputy. We can give him that but I do not have it to hand.

It would be useful to have. If we could get that sent to us it would be great. Of the 1,334, how many stood up to scrutiny? Was it determined that some were vexatious, for example?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We would never start off in that context. They are all rigorously reviewed.

I mean when the process has finished as opposed to when it starts.

Ms Mary Dunnion

It would not be a trend I see, to be fair.

So, most of them are genuine and HIQA pursues them.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes, because it is the person's feeling and he or she is generally representing a family member or a vulnerable person.

Have there been any issues with procurement in HIQA? Have there been any breaches that we can identify?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

No.

I see that €432,668 was spent on professional fees in 2014. It is note 8 in the accounts. The expenditure in 2015 was €665,366. Statutory investigations expenditure was approximately €28,000, and "other consultancy" was €425,343. What is "other consultancy"?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I have answered that previously.

I apologise if I missed it.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We have given a breakdown on the headline elements, which were pensions, IR, consultancy for the development of IT systems, preparation for the national patient experience survey, and some work on leadership and management development within the organisation. They are the main headline elements. There is obviously also the matter of legal fees as we work very specifically within legal frameworks and accrue legal fees on foot of our need to engage external legal advice.

Were all of those services procured in the appropriate procurement fashion?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Absolutely.

Mr. Sean Angland

Absolutely.

Who are the auditors?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Until recently-----

Mr. Sean Angland

Our auditor is the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Was there any-----

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Internal auditors-----

-----outside accountancy firm procured to do any work?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Up until recently, it was Capita and more recently we have procured Deloitte.

A total of €12,560 was spent on media monitoring. Is that a PR firm or is it internal?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It is a procured service that feeds information to us. Even in terms of business intelligence for the organisation, we find that information contained within the media can direct us in some instances to areas where they may be risks within the-----

It is a private sector PR firm which gives HIQA a booklet, or whatever it is, every week?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It is a daily feed.

It is a clippings type of service. That is external.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes.

What PR company is it?

Mr. Sean Angland

It is a company called Kantar.

I turn to meeting room hire. Does HIQA have access to HSE facilities for meetings? Can it say, "We are in Sligo tomorrow" and ask the HSE for a boardroom?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Most of those meetings are related to meeting providers of designated centres. A lot of our meetings in that context are meetings with registered providers. As I said, there are almost 2,000 registered designated centres. As such, we often have to hire rooms because we only have our two offices.

I understand the position in HIQA but in terms of the best use of State resources, does it have access to HSE property if need be?

Mr. Sean Angland

We have arrangements with a range of other State bodies around the country so that if we need to have meetings-----

What bodies are those? Is the HSE one of them?

Mr. Sean Angland

I do not think so. We use bodies like Coillte, the Prison Service-----

Ms Mary Dunnion

We also use the offices of the Department of Education and Skills in Athlone.

While I know it is not very much money, I am sure that between the HSE, Coillte and umpteen other State organisations, there are plenty of available rooms without having to dish out €15,000 to €20,000. That is just a comment. There is a credit note from the OPW for €112,000. What did it overcharge for?

Mr. Sean Angland

It overcharged service charges on buildings. We have to pay service charges to the OPW-----

For the offices HIQA has.

Mr. Sean Angland

-----for the offices we have.

It has given HIQA a credit note, a kind of IOU, which is as good as cash.

Mr. Sean Angland

That is correct.

What is HIQA doing with the €830,000 that it carried over in cash?

Mr. Sean Angland

Most of that matches against accruals that we had at the year end. The cash is effectively matched against money that we owed at the year end, which will have to be paid very early after the year end.

It does not involve carrying €1 million in cash that requires investment or anything like that.

Mr. Sean Angland

No. We draw down cash from the Department of Health on a monthly basis. We try to minimise cash but at any point in time, because we have bills, we need money in the bank to pay them.

That €830,000 would have been required in January 2017.

Mr. Sean Angland

Absolutely.

What were the pre-payments of €519,000?

Mr. Sean Angland

That will be rent because we have to pay rent quarters in advance. It will be mostly rent but there will be other things such as other utility bills and so on in there as well.

Did Mr. Angland discuss with the Office of Public Works, OPW, the potential of buying premises?

Mr. Sean Angland

No. When we set out what our requirements were to the OPW it found properties for us through the commercial sector.

Could Mr. Angland raise with it the potential of purchasing a premises? Servicing a loan for an appropriate building may well be substantially less than €519,000 a year.

Mr. Sean Angland

We take advice from the OPW on that. It is the expert in management of the State's property portfolio.

Mr. Angland is an expert in his own field. I am sure the OPW might be open to suggestion. It will give HIQA more money to deal with the services it provides. Does Mr. Angland believe that because HIQA is a State body, he has to answer in a particular way so as not to disappoint his line Department? He might answer that after my final question. Does HIQA have enough staff and resources to provide the safety and peace of mind to the public about our health service?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

"No", is the answer at the minute. As an example, I cited in the opening statement that we had-----

I hope Mr. Quinn is not off the Secretary General's Christmas card list after that.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Colleagues are sitting in front of me here. In agreement with the Department of Health we developed a strategic workforce plan earlier this year. That workforce plan clearly articulates some of the areas of risk we currently carry in regard to the discharge of our current functions as well as some of the resource requirements we have for planned future functions of the authority. As an example, one of the critical issues for us in terms of risk is the significant increase that there has been in recent years in the number of designated centres for people with disability. There is a policy within Ireland around the decongregation or resettlement of people who have been living in large congregated settings to move into more integrated community settings, and that has happened. It has happened both as a result of the policy but I also believe it has happened as a result of the interventions HIQA has made regarding both the nature and culture of some of the services we have been in. The outcome of some of that work has been an increase of somewhere in the region of 200 new designated centres that we are not necessarily staffed for. On top of that, some of the well articulated risks we have identified within some of those services means that our inspection volumes have to increase, but we have not had the commensurate increase in staff. That is reflected in that workforce plan.

Deputy Alan Kelly has ten minutes.

I will be brief, which is unlike me, but in fairness most of the questions have been asked by my colleagues. I think I am the only person who overlaps in that I am on the Joint Committee on Health as well. I am spokesperson on health. To be fair to the witnesses, they are quite good at stakeholder engagement so they communicate quite a bit, but there is a critical issue here. I do not believe the majority of people know what HIQA does.

I agree with the Deputy. I looked at the witnesses' opening statement and in terms of anybody reading it, it states that it is here to improve the health services for the public but now we find it has no role in regulating any of the hospitals.

It is not just that. There are other areas as well.

The opening statement did not give any perception as to its limited role. I am only pointing it out, and I know it is the witnesses' first time to be here.

To be fair to the witnesses, and I know we are talking about them in front of them, they probably presumed that we knew but I would say the majority of Deputies do not know what HIQA does.

With regard to my first question, my colleague, Deputy MacSharry, talked about staffing and Mr. Quinn outlined that HIQA has gone from a staff number of 192 to 209. I know about its plans because it has told me about them. The real issue is that if HIQA ended up in charge of the whole parcel of issues in health care, this country probably would not have the budget to fund the changes it would recommend. That is the reason there is a go-slow as regards the overall remit of pushing HIQA. Somebody has to say it; that is reality. That is the reason powers are limited in certain areas. If it were to move into, say, the whole parcel, as an agency it would probably treble in size.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Again, within the context of our strategic workforce plan, we have reflected new functions such as regulation of analysing medical exposure regulations, the potential for home care regulation, obviously, the projections in regard to health care licensing and the regulation of children's residential centres. The projections just in that alone-----

The whole home care side alone-----

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We had only projected in the workforce plan for the preparation for home care regulation but if we were to look at that workforce plan, it brought us up to somewhere in the region of 384 staff, which is more or less doubling the size of the organisation, and that is just for those functions.

That is important information to get out. Ms Dunnion spoke earlier about the costs of registering. In terms of what the public needs to know also, there are registration costs. That is fine; that is the easy part. It is when HIQA comes in and makes recommendations. Organisations have two choices. They either do nothing and they will close or else they find the money and, in many cases, run deficits and eventually sort it out. In regard to the Health Service Executive budgets, for instance, and capital plans, the consequences of the decisions of HIQA have a knock-on effect on health budgets across the HSE.

That brings me on to some real issues. The Chairman is probably not aware of this but there is a unique court case going on in Ennis, which I will not get into, between the HSE and HIQA. That is why I am interested in this. I presume the witnesses' legal fees will go up because this case is unique. It is based around the registration of St. Joseph's Hospital. I will not get into the details on this issue because that is for the Joint Committee on Health and also there are some aspects we probably should not get into. I raise that issue because the HSE has taken a decision regarding a decision HIQA has made on the admittance of patients. It has gone to court to stop this happening because in its judgment it is not warranted. However, that is not the debate. In terms of what I want to get into, with regard to HIQA's costs for inspections and how it carries out its functions, these are high costs. For instance, in the case I am referring to, this hospital was visited four times in a short space of time; it was definitively three. How does HIQA manage the costs associated with the type of inspections it has to carry out? Will they grow? How are individual costs managed? Across the nursing home sector, there is a capital investment plan in place for the next number of years. How do the witnesses manage all that, costs wise?

Ms Mary Dunnion

I understand exactly where the Deputy is coming from. The inspection schedule is determined by the Health Act and the regulations that are in place. There is an opportunity to look at regulation in that context because regulation should be dynamic.

Can Ms Dunnion explain that?

Ms Mary Dunnion

The way regulation is determined now is that HIQA has to register a building and the care within that building.

It does not matter whether the care provided in the building is for those with high-dependency needs, for very dependent people or for older people who can walk around. The same regulation applies, because that is the way it is designed.

So it is too rigid.

Ms Mary Dunnion

There is a significant opportunity to begin to talk about regulating services as opposed to buildings. That will allow a reciprocal response by providers to be able to say that they are going to offer a service for people with high-dependency needs, or - and I do not mean this in a dismissive way - for people who may need only care and security. At present, there is one suite of regulation and it covers everybody no matter what type of service is required.

What Ms Dunnion is saying is that we, as legislators, need to look at changing the regulations through the Health Act in order to ensure that they are tailored to individual services rather applying to bricks and mortar.

Ms Mary Dunnion

I think there is a major opportunity there.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Certainly, the Hampton principles of regulation, which are recognised internationally, could be applied to that work, which would enable the regulation both to be risk-based and proportionate.

I wish to dig into this further. I was somewhat annoyed about what happened in Ennis - let us not think about what is going to happen in the future - because details started appearing in the media before the stakeholders even knew, which is not good. An issue of public confidence arises. I was not happy with how it was managed and I am still not happy, but we will deal with it at the Joint Committee on Health.

Getting back to the cost issue, there is a process relating to inspections and, in fairness, it has been outlined. I presume there is a rota for the conduct of inspections and so on. I presume the retrospective information is available publicly.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

If I were to go through the records of all the nursing homes in Ireland or, more particularly, for those in County Clare - by the way, I do not represent the people of Clare - I presume I would find a rota process by means of which all of this is done.

Ms Mary Dunnion

There is a schedule.

Nobody could be accused of being zealous in their undertakings or anything of that nature.

Ms Mary Dunnion

There is a schedule of inspections. Some of it is determined by the fact that a centre has to renew its registration every three years, so that will determine when inspections are conducted. What is really important is that the function of regulation and what determines it is the quality and safety of services. No schedule is rigid in application because what determines it is whether there is a risk to vulnerable people in a particular centre.

I understand that. Basically, there is a rigidity. However, there is enough fluidity in the system that HIQA staff can change it when they want.

Ms Mary Dunnion

It is flexible.

How does that happen? Does it arise on foot of public complaints?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Several things feed in to determine that. In the context of the regulation of centres for disability and older persons, there is mandatory notification of incidents. In other words, the provider has to notify HIQA in the context of falls, the development of pressure sores and residents being transferred to hospital. There are aspects on safeguarding. First, there is mandatory notification. Second, there is unsolicited information, which Mr. Quinn alluded to, whereby somebody rings HIQA to inform us about something. That information is not validated. Third, there is the regulatory history of a provider. All that brings together a risk profile.

Effectively, there is a matrix.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

I ask Ms Dunnion to write to the committee secretariat outlining the matrix and showing where it is documented because I have never seen it. I would genuinely like to see where it is documented that HIQA operates in this way.

Ms Mary Dunnion

We will certainly share that information with the committee.

Will Ms Dunnion indicate where the information is to be found because I have not see it. I will write to Ms Dunnion separately on seeking historical information. This has consequences for the Committee of Public Accounts, which must account for taxpayer's money. The Government made a decision in respect of multi-occupancy rooms in nursing homes, which basically allows the use of such rooms until 2021. Was HIQA happy with that decision?

Ms Mary Dunnion

There is a statutory instrument but it does not outweigh the importance of people's privacy, dignity and human rights.

Ms Mary Dunnion

What I, as chief inspector, have to say-----

Was HIQA upset by it? Does Ms Dunnion agree with it?

Ms Mary Dunnion

I genuinely do not believe that any bed is better than no bed.

I am not saying that. I asked a simple question. Ms Dunnion was quite eloquent when responding to Deputy MacSharry. It would probably be easier if I were to ask Ms Dunnion whether she agrees with it. The knock-on effects in the context of taxpayer's money, public confidence and the HSE's budget are dramatic. As matters stand, there will be a process whereby HIQA will do its job and will work within the framework on multi-occupancy rooms up until 2021, when the capital plan is due to come into effect. There is a major plan for St. Joseph's and, similarly, there will be a new facility at St. Conlon's in Nenagh. Either people will work within the confines of that plan to the best of their ability or they will not. My concern is that the knock-on effects and consequences for the taxpayer will be pretty significant.

Deputy Kelly's time is up. The next speaker is Deputy Catherine Murphy.

I would like an answer please.

Ms Mary Dunnion

I will make one answer. The life of a resident in a designated centre shrinks if that life revolves around a bed. It is very hard to undo that. It is not about multi-occupancy; it is about how one ensures that the living and the most vulnerable have - towards the end of their days - lives that are worth living, that care is person-centred and that people have their privacy and their dignity. That is what we measure.

I agree with all of that. We have to assess how money will be spent. My question is whether HIQA will work within the directive?

Sorry, Deputy

I just want an answer to the question.

Ms Mary Dunnion

We work to all the regulations, including in the context of people's privacy and dignity.

I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

I want to pick up on the point Deputy Connolly made in response to an email from a consultant at Tallaght hospital. HIQA conducted an inquiry. How much does an inquiry of that nature cost?

Ms Mary Dunnion

It was a statutory investigation.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I could not give the Deputy an specific figure but we would estimate the cost in hundreds of thousands of euro.

Okay. Despite the fact that there is much support for the recommendations that HIQA made in this particular case, the circumstances it uncovered at the time now pertain again. Ms Dunnion has outlined that HIQA's is a monitoring rather than a regulatory role. It is very difficult, therefore, to see how it would be possible for HIQA to drive standards up in the absence of particular powers. The consultant who wrote the email states that 350 patients die every year in the State and that, according to the Irish Association of Emergency Medicine, overcrowding is a factor at the time of death. One aspect of our work, when the HSE is before us, involves looking at contingent liability in cases where there is a failure that can be demonstrated. One of the points made by the consultant to whom I refer is made is that the fire certificate does not cover the relevant unit where some of the elderly patients have been, to use his word, "boarders" for fairly long periods. There is only one access door and there is only one isolation room into which six patients who required isolation for infection control purposes were put.

Very serious failures have been identified by this consultant and these would have obtained pretty much around the time that HIQA conducted its investigation. It screams that there needs to be regulation. On the idea that this involves a cost, there is also a cost if action is not taken. The contingent liabilities relating to the HSE are probably testament to that. The cost ran to hundreds of thousands of euro. Has HIQA conducted a repeat investigation at Tallaght hospital?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We would not have carried out a review of the implementation of the recommendations at Tallaght hospital. Certainly, we would have ongoing communication with Tallaght hospital and from some of the consultants there as well.

And HIQA would have a concern about-----

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We would have a concern but those concerns are replicated in other emergency departments, EDs, throughout the country.

As some of my questions have been answered already, I will just focus on social care. Is HIQA going to have a statutory function in that area?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We currently have a statutory function in social care.

Does the authority have a function in the home care aspect?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

That issue has arisen through communications and conversations we have had with colleagues in the Department of Health from a policy direction perspective. As an organisation that has experience of regulating within health and social care services, we would see home care as a particular area of vulnerability. Where people are in receipt of care within their own homes, we believe there is a requirement for appropriate regulation of the agencies that supply people into those homes. That would be the model used across a range of other European countries as well.

Would HIQA would look at the agencies as opposed to the individuals?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Absolutely. Not the home, no.

I presume HIQA would be considering something like the survey it is doing with the hospitals.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes, that would be a critical part of home care regulation. The ability to gain access to the views of service users would be critical.

I have been trying to piece together statistics on the level of service provided and it varies considerably throughout the country. I would not be surprised if there is a geographic difference in the response to that survey. From overnights to respite, home help and personal care hours, it certainly would not tie in with the proportion of the population that would require it. Some of the level of care provided appears to depend on historical reasons as opposed to current need. That is important. What timeframe is HIQA looking at?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

That would be a policy decision. The determination in terms of timeframe would be with the Government and the Department of Health.

It also goes to the issue of staffing, I presume. Mr. Quinn spoke about staffing issues in his opening statement. It also has the potential to create additional operational costs if temporary staff are required to complete core work. Has HIQA done any calculations of additional costs? Where does Mr. Quinn see them arising?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

They would be reflected mainly in our use of agency staff, so in terms of whether there is an increase or decrease in the use of agency staff in respect of filling vacancies, that would be reflected in our accounts to some extent.

Is the cost of agency staff per person higher, or is it to do with the information with which people would need to get up to speed to carry out a function?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I think it is a bit of both. Certainly there would be an initial training requirement for someone who is unfamiliar with the specific area we are dealing with. However, we would always try to engage appropriate agency staff to minimise that. Certainly the cost of agency staff would be higher than the cost of a HIQA employee.

When HIQA applies to the Department for staffing, because there are some costs associated with that, what typically happens? Is HIQA free to fill a vacant post or does it have to go to the Department on each occasion?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

On each occasion we are required to identify the vacancy and notify the Department which, in turn, will then provide us with sanction. Back as far as 2016 it was even more complicated than that. The Department did not have the authority to sanction certain posts and had to go to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Sanction had to be received from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, after which we were notified by the Department of Health. Then we were able to initiate the recruitment process. However, that has changed in more recent times. Posts at a level below that of principal officer can be sanctioned by the Department. At least there has been a speeding up of the sanctioning process.

In effect, HIQA can employ a more expensive agency person but cannot employ a less expensive permanent person.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

To say that we can is maybe wrong. It is rather that we do. It is usually where we believe that the function is critical and we have a legal remit or a business or corporate objective that we must meet. It would be on that basis. In every case, we would look at the rationale for employing an agency person. As I also pointed out earlier, when it comes to things like inspection staff, we would and could never employ agency staff because the amount of time for preparation of an inspector to go out into the field is such that we just have to run with that vacancy. An inspector would never be employed on an agency basis.

Does that mean that if someone in that category leaves or goes on maternity leave or whatever, HIQA has a deficiency in terms of its oversight until the place is filled?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Certainly one could say that we definitely have a deficiency in terms of the numbers to cover the workload. However, I have to say that our staff would very clearly pick up issues of risk and attempt to address them. Risk drives everything in HIQA in terms of our intervention into the external environment.

How many inquiries is HIQA undertaking at the moment?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

If we are talking about statutory investigations, there is one ongoing, namely, the investigation into Tusla on the issues of adults of concern.

Are the other ones routine monitoring?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

All other activity is derived from the Health Act in respect of the functions of the chief inspector in adult social services and in children's social services and then the monitoring activity in health care.

What is the Tusla investigation?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It was the investigation referenced in my opening statement, namely, the Tusla investigation into child protection in respect of adults of concern. It arose out of the issues in respect of the Garda McCabe investigation.

Was HIQA requested to do that statutory inquiry?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes.

Was it given additional resources?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

No.

That means HIQA must do that within its own budget. If there was more to take on, it probably would look for additional resources. Did HIQA look for additional resources for that?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We looked for additional resources earlier this year, but there was an indication that because we may be coming in at an underspend this year, the money should be found out of the projected underspend.

Am I right in saying this is the first appearance of HIQA before our committee?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes.

Mr. Quinn is very welcome.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I thank the Deputy.

A lot has been asked of him already. I want to focus on a couple of specific things, if I might. In terms of nursing homes, HIQA has very considerable powers. Will he recite them in a list, as it were, starting from registration? What are the powers that HIQA enjoys in respect of that sector?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I am genuinely not trying to avoid the question-----

It is a question for Ms Dunnion.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Yes. Ms Dunnion is the chief inspector of social services, which is actually a statutory post. She has direct responsibility to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Absolutely. I also defer to Ms Dunnion's greater knowledge.

Ms Mary Dunnion

It is probably easiest to go by way of the example of someone who is opening a service. First, he or she must apply for a registration and, in the context of that, he or she must be compliant with the registration regulations. Once that person goes through that process, an inspection takes place whereby we assess the regulations for the safety and welfare of residents. Again, they are nationally mandated regulations. If it is all well, then that is fine and the centre is registered. Thereafter, a monitoring process begins whereby the provider has to notify us of specific mandatory notifications. We conduct an inspection every year and renew the registration inspection every three years. The service provider has to apply for that within a given time. That is what happens if everything is sailing along beautifully.

If there are problems in the context of the quality and safety of the service for residents, there is a suite of actions that we can take. It all begins by making an inspection and verifying the non-compliance. It is never done without having the facts and evidence gathered.

We can give the provider a warning and tell them they must make the changes within a given time, determined by the office of the chief inspector, following which another inspection happens. It may be that we decide we continue the registration but with the condition that, until the situation improves, they cannot take any more residents into the nursing home. We can give a formal, legal notice of proposal to cancel a registration and then the provider has 28 days to respond. In many cases the response is adequate to address the non-compliance. If it is not, the next step would be to cancel the registration of the provider.

They will then not be able to operate.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

That is clear. HIQA has a very firm rein on the sector because it has statutory authority. Are there distinctions as between private and public nursing homes?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Absolutely none.

Does HIQA have any role in respect of the setting of charges?

Ms Mary Dunnion

No.

It does not have a remit in respect of either private or incidental charges. How is that done in the sector?

Ms Mary Dunnion

HIQA has a remit to ensure the contract of care between the resident and the provider has been signed. A resident signs a contract for the service they receive in the nursing home and there is a regulation that allows us to check if it has been signed. There is a discussion between the resident and the person providing the service and we would have concerns over what the regulations allow us to do in that context. We have brought these to the attention of the Department of Health.

I wish I had more time because what Ms Dunnion is saying is extremely informative. Should HIQA have a role or function in respect of costs or charges?

Ms Mary Dunnion

No, because HIQA is not a financial regulator.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The National Treatment Purchase Fund has a role in costs.

The costs in private nursing homes are set individually by each home. It is a matter of law that it has to be done that way.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

I want to ask about the board. The chairperson, Mr. McEnery-----

He was before us with NAMA.

Yes, I recall. His fee is €20,520. In 2016, the board met seven times. That means he was clearing €2,931.43 per meeting. I will not even get into the subsistence that was paid. That is a substantial amount of cash. Can Ms Dunnion tell me what are the roles of the chairperson and board? Does the board have a role or a say in the things to which Ms Dunnion has referred? What does the chairperson do to merit that kind of fee?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The fees for the chairperson and board members are nothing to do with the executive of the authority.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The Deputy asked about the involvement of the board in the work of the authority. The board provides oversight of governance and seeks assurance from the executive of the authority in respect of all its functions. We do that at board meetings and sub-committee meetings. In 2016, there were four sub-committees-----

That is fine. Mr. Quinn can tell me about those at another time. I want to know about what the board and Mr. McEnery are doing.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The chief inspector is a very singular role within HIQA. It is very specific and is not specifically accountable to the board of the authority but to the Houses of the Oireachtas. The chief inspector is employed, as are all her inspectors, by the authority. There is no involvement or interference in the non-executive element of the authority in respect of the functions of the chief inspector or the assessments we make in the health care sector under section 8 of the Act. That is all the role of the executive. We bring issues of completion and-or concern to the board but it would only be to say what we find and what we are going to do.

Mr. Quinn mentioned issues around governance and corporate compliance. One of the things we discussed with Mr. McEnery, albeit in terms of NAMA, was the issue of conflicts of interest. Is Mr. Quinn satisfied that conflicts of interest are properly catered for? I note from his CV that he has been a health adviser for quite some time. I assume he has some relationship with nursing homes or care homes for older persons. Is there a conflict of interest there? How is it managed?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I believe it is well managed within the context of HIQA. There are multiple opportunities, both proactively and reactively-----

Where are the limits for the chairperson? I am sorry to pick on him but his is the only name I recognise. What can and can he not do, professionally, given that he operates as an adviser while being chairperson of the board of HIQA? Where is the delineation? Would they have to make a declaration?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The delineation would be where a chairperson has had involvement in a particular nursing home, such as one listed within the chief executive's report, in which case he would indicate it. It would not necessarily mean there was any discussion about the nursing home but I would give a summary report to the board every two months on the nature of the activity we carried out, as well as the detail of some of that activity. Those decisions would have already been made and we would simply be indicating where we had specific issues and reporting the outcome of those issues.

Has the chairperson ever made such declarations at meetings?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

A declaration had to be made just once, at the last board meeting in July. He noted that he had prior involvement in his other role with a listed nursing home. There was no specific discussion on the detail.

It is a very hands-off role.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Absolutely.

It is a monitoring, oversight role.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It is an oversight role.

So why €20,500? I know it is set by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform but it is very generous remuneration, at almost €3,000 per meeting. We are in the wrong business, folks. It is a lot of money for attending seven meetings. Is the chairperson doing other things in the interim?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

There is ongoing communication between myself and the chairperson on governance issues within the organisation, HR, finance, ICT, ICT security, the audit programme etc. I have regular communication with the chairperson on these matters.

What would Mr. Quinn rely on the chairperson for?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It is mainly for governance oversight.

Tell me what that means.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

It is to provide him with information about circumstances we have come across.

In individual nursing homes?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

No, absolutely never in respect of individual nursing homes. Even as chief executive, I do not necessarily get involved in the detail of what goes on in specific nursing homes as that is the role of the chief inspector.

Ms Mary Dunnion

All decisions related to designated centres are made solely in the office of the chief inspector.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

They are separate and very well contained within the organisational structure.

Almost every question I was going to ask has been asked and Deputy McDonald took a lot of questions just as I was going to ask them. It was said that it was compulsory to register. Can anyone provide a service without registering or does everyone have to register?

Ms Mary Dunnion

If they want to provide residential centre services they need to be registered with HIQA.

They have to be registered.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

Many people dread when HIQA visits to carry out an inspection, especially of nursing homes, homes for the elderly and disability centres. I am hearing it the whole time. They dread the thought of inspections. When HIQA visits, does it mostly consider buildings, fire hazards, the width of doors, beds-----

Ms Mary Dunnion

It is those and others. It is really defined by the regulations. They refer to safe premises; that is one of them. They also concern welfare regulation. As explained to Deputy Kelly, that is where one is talking about person-centred care and ensuring the rights of someone are being protected and that they are entitled to the same rights as any other citizen. Those types of regulations exist as well so it is a broad spectrum, but it does include fire safety and the physical environment.

When HIQA finds problems, does it give management a chance to rectify them?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes. Every inspection that identifies issues of concern results in an action plan by the registered provider.

How long is it given to rectify the situation?

Ms Mary Dunnion

It really depends. If there is an immediate risk, it has to be rectified straight away because that is an immediate risk to a resident. If a residential centre now has a physical environment problem – many do – HIQA accepts a time-bound plan to change that, as long as the pieces that centre around the well-being of the vulnerable person are taken care of. It is a matter of person-centred care. Often people will say HIQA is looking at the four walls. HIQA is not looking at the four walls; it is looking at what is happening within those four walls.

Is Ms Dunnion talking about the welfare of the patient?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Exactly. It is about care of the kind the Deputy would like and what I would hope to have when I reach the relevant age, and I may be in one of these centres.

Charges were mentioned. There has been a lot of publicity lately about extra charges. Does HIQA have any role to play where people are paying for extra hairdressing, for example, or other such extra charges?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We have a concern with it but we do not have a specific role to play. However, what we have done is work with the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission in the context of it developing guidelines. We are looking at our statement of purpose, where we will see that charges that will be in place will be more clear for people. There are many providers in respect of which there are no charges. For example, our inspectors were in a series of places where there was a HIQA charge on residents. There is no HIQA charge so the practice was stopped.

If HIQA carries out an inspection and sees overcharging taking place, does it notify someone?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We bring it to the attention of the provider if we have concerns, but we do not have a regulatory remit and we are not a financial regulator.

Are whistleblowers all taken at face value? If someone writes in to HIQA tomorrow morning saying such and such is going on, does HIQA go in straight away to inspect the provider? How does it go about that? How does it manage it? Some people could be making false allegations.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Exactly. We gather quite an amount of information because regulation is actually about gathering information and then utilising it. Any information we receive that we have not sourced ourselves is not treated by us as validated information until we make sure it is correct.

How does HIQA go about that?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We may do it by inspection. We may do it by having the provider investigate it for us and coming back to us. We would determine whether the investigation was robust in the way it was conducted. Generally, we will follow up and make sure that, if it is true, we will work within the powers of our regulatory remit. The Deputy is quite correct that sometimes an allegation may not be true, and we will find that as well.

Are bullying and sexual harassment part of HIQA's remit? I refer to where bullying is talking place in a residential home for older people or the disabled. Does HIQA actually inspect to see whether bullying, sexual harassment or assault is taking place?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Our inspections are very geared towards ensuring residents are safeguarded. I suppose all of that might fit into that description. The way we inspect now is such that we will always look at the safeguarding arrangements for people.

Does HIQA notify nursing homes when visiting or do the inspectors just walk in?

Ms Mary Dunnion

About 75% of our inspections are unannounced. It is also important to have a percentage that are announced so one can meet the managers of the organisations and so people living there can come to meet one. In our disability inspections, we have met 75% of all the people living in the facilities.

Would HIQA have every right to walk into any nursing home at any stage, night or day, and ask to see what is going on there?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Absolutely.

How often is there an inspection? Is it once a year or every six months.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes, we would.

Every one of them?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Generally speaking.

In Kilkenny, there is a case the witnesses might know of, that of Ballytobin. Maybe I should not be mentioning the name. There were problems there. Camphill was in charge and now there is a new provider coming in. There were problems down there and HIQA was involved. Time was given to those concerned to reply and carry out whatever they were supposed to carry out. They did not do it and eventually HIQA just came in and said it wanted to close it down.

Ms Mary Dunnion

That is correct. Ample time was given for the lives of residents to be improved and to be made safe.

I know about this as it is in my own constituency. I was involved in it.

Ms Mary Dunnion

In the context of the health Act, if we find that it is important, we make sure there is a transition to a new provider. In the context of that, the HSE would have become involved.

The model involved the integration of residents and workers. That system was in place for 15 or 20 years but, based on whatever happened, it is being closed down. Is that model not suitable under HIQA standards?

Ms Mary Dunnion

There were safeguarding issues that made the centre non-compliant with regulations. Therefore, we would be legally and ethically bound to respond to that. Non-compliance with regulations will result in an enforcement action.

HIQA gave the provider every opportunity and it did not comply. Is that what happened?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Absolutely.

There was project income received for health research. What are the details of the project?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

That is a very specific programme being carried out in conjunction with the Department of Health. It is looking at the development of clinical guidelines. HIQA, as an independent body, is working now on the evidence base that is informing clinical guidelines. Some of those clinical guidelines have arisen out of the national maternity strategy, for example, so there is a suite of clinical guidelines that are now being worked upon by staff within HIQA that help the national clinical effectiveness team to implement those-----

Has expenditure-----

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We have started to expend. The grant was awarded to us only at the beginning of this year. We have started on that work now.

The last question is on people's private homes. Does HIQA have any role to play in old people's circumstances in private homes where carers are involved or where there are care hours?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Not specifically.

Has HIQA no role there at all?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

No, but I stated earlier that I believe there is a policy discussion ongoing in respect of the regulation of home care. It would be our understanding that HIQA has the potential to become involved in the regulation of home care agencies.

I have a number of quick questions on the audit. There was something I meant to ask related to page 14. HIQA has an outsourced internal audit function. The witnesses referred to companies that deal with that, including Deloitte.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Deloitte currently and Capita previously.

What was the cost of the audits carried out? What was learned, and in what areas? Were there significant issues arising from that audit? Let us take the year 2016.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Mr. Sean Angland might be able to provide the detail on the cost but we obviously have specific audits in relation to our own financial management on an annual basis. However, we would also audit across a range of the functions within the authority. For example, I believe ICT security was audited last year. We looked at performance management within our own organisation, and we looked at risk management. As part of our own integrated governance system, we have actually built the outcome of our audit process into our planning-----

I understand that but my question was on how many were carried out and the significant issues.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

There were roughly five or six. I cannot remember off the top of my head.

First, were there any significant issues?

Second, in the context of the areas chosen, will Mr. Quinn explain what he means by risk?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

I do not believe that there were any significant findings. However, we would take all of the findings seriously. We have a specific way in which we action and report on our progress against those actions to our audit and risk committee. Apologies.

Mr. Quinn mentioned that HIQA's financial management-----

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The risk, sorry-----

I accept that an audit has to be done on that, but what of the other areas at which HIQA might look?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Normally, the audit programme is very much based on our risk register. The auditors, in conjunction with the executive management team and the audit and risk committee, would look at our risk register and examine where specific gaps or vulnerabilities sit within it. We then audit on that basis.

Will Mr. Quinn give an example?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

The registration process. We wanted to look at some issues of performance or poor performance in the context of achieving registration and we audited the entire registration process. Then the auditors would have made recommendations to us on improvements that had to be made and we subsequently implemented these.

The one point that jumps out of Mr. Quinn's opening statement is that not having enough staff is impacting on HIQA's operational activity on the ground. It is significant. Does that come under risk assessment?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

We certainly would have risks that relate. Actually, we have four specific risks on our corporate risk register that would involve some element where we believe issues of resources would have an impact on our ability.

What are those four issues?

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Goodness.

If Mr. Quinn does not have them there, he can get them.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

One is specifically on HR management.

Perhaps Mr. Quinn could come back to me on it because I am conscious that my time is running out. I would just like to know what are the risks that were identified and for Mr. Quinn to come back to me. Even a quick note would suffice.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

Okay.

There are a few other little matters I would like to ask about which are directly tied in with staff and how HIQA decides where to go. I have the greatest of respect for HIQA. As I stated at the outset, it has an enormous task and I believe the range is too much for one body. Then there is the bigger issue of how we have set about privatising everything. There is a belief that the model being used is cheaper but the hidden costs of monitoring are extraordinary. For example, if one looks at nursing homes, the split is now 80% private and 20% public. In that context, and at the risk of being parochial, I will take the example of Galway. I have read the reports. If we look at the regional hospital, by any standards, with patients on trolleys, it deserves to be the subject of a HIQA inspection. The paediatric unit was singled out in one of HIQA's reports in terms of the cleaning routine, the absence of privacy and lots of issues around that. Will HIQA go back in and inspect that? How does HIQA pick that as opposed to examining the fact that there is a ward closed or a leaky roof in Merlin Park University Hospital? Does Mr. Quinn understand the point I am making? It seems an extraordinary position for HIQA to be in. It seems that HIQA is utterly reliant on whistleblowers but it says it is not.

Ms Mary Dunnion

In the context of a monitoring role in health care, we have decided on areas that we are specifically going to focus on.

Take the regional hospital in Galway then, how does HIQA pick?

Ms Mary Dunnion

We have been in the regional in Galway looking at antimicrobial stewardship - infection control and prevention - and medicines management because that is the programme of monitoring we have. That is the programme which goes right across the 49 acute hospitals.

There are themes that HIQA picks.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes, exactly. We pick those themes because we know that, with the resources that we have, we can drive improvement in that area.

What if HIQA had more resources? If we take Merlin Park, I mentioned already the fact that the roof is leaking. HIQA has also looked at a nursing home unit there, unit 5, and has found some deficiencies. Let me tell Ms Dunnion that the people of Galway want to get into Merlin Park and they cannot do so. In fact, that is something I want to deal with. I am glad HIQA is highlighting some aspects that need to be improved and I have no difficulty with that. However, the unit is registered for 52 people but there are only 45 in it. HIQA's extra requirement for bathrooms and single rooms will reduce the number of beds available, and there is a waiting list.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Sorry, is it a nursing home?

Yes. The unit in Merlin Park. There are so many issues going around in my head. There is: paediatrics, the leak, and the nursing home. Ms Dunnion stated HIQA picks a theme.

Ms Mary Dunnion

A nursing home, if it is registered, has to be compliant with the nationally mandated regulations, which are completely separate from those of a hospital. If it is a nursing home, there are nationally mandated regulations. There is a legal framework and the office of the chief inspector has to inspect against and monitor compliance with this.

I see. Ms Dunnion has clarified that for me and that is good.

HIQA uses a themed approach and examines the position in a hospital in respect of, for example, infection. It is quite clear that it is impossible to control infection if that hospital is bursting at the seams. It is difficult for me to take that - not HIQA but the theme of looking at infection - seriously when there are patients on trolleys and packed wards and HIQA has identified problems in theatre in the context of the disposal of syringes, etc. I understand the difficulties. The staff are under enormous pressure. It is difficult for me to take the concept of thematic investigations seriously. It would seem more sensible for HIQA to have a reduced burden - either more staff to allow it do everything or a reduced role - and would go in and say that there will be infection in a hospital, such as Tallaght or Galway, with this pressure on staff and pressure on a building that is not suitable, for instance, a paediatric ward that is not suitable.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Our infection and control monitoring reports would state that and it is published in the media.

What would they state?

Ms Mary Dunnion

They would indicate if there was a concern in the context of resources and if there was a concern regarding the infrastructure. Our overview report, which included all the elements, covered that. That is where HIQA's remit ends because the responsibility is for the person providing the service.

My final question is a practical one. Ms Dunnion will be familiar with the inspections that HIQA lists out for the different areas of disability.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

Is every organisation covered every year? I saw some were covered.

Ms Mary Dunnion

All disability and older person centres have been inspected.

I just want to pose a few random questions. Approximately how many closures of nursing homes would HIQA have brought about in recent years? There would be a few.

Ms Mary Dunnion

We have not brought about any closures. However, five nursing homes have voluntarily closed in the past year.

That is what I mean. They were not compliant and they had to close.

Ms Mary Dunnion

No, they closed of their own volition. It was nothing to do with regulation.

Fine. We understand that. Perhaps they had business or other reasons.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Exactly, yes.

Deputy Alyward mentioned a particular case whereby the ownership seems to have changed and I remember one instance a couple of years ago one - in Mullingar or somewhere in Westmeath - where people were being moved elsewhere because of standards. How often does that happen? It is obviously rare.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

When something like that happens, it attracts a great deal of media attention.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Exactly. One would expect that in older person services. They have been regulated for well over a decade. They were regulated before HIQA was established.

Ms Mary Dunnion

From a chief inspector's point of view, I would really be saying that services for older people should be way beyond the baseline of a regulation because they have been in that sector for so long. Disability is different. It is really important in the context of older people that the service level and what they are delivering should be way higher. It is not that they are new regulated services.

Does everybody who works in all the organisations that HIQA regulates require Garda clearance?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Garda clearance has been required under legislation since April 2016. Everybody is supposed to be Garda vetted. It is not a HIQA requirement, it is the law.

I know well it is not. In its inspections, would HIQA check registers or the files?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes. We look for the Garda vetting. We obviously do not look at it for everyone. We take a random selection off to see.

Deputy Connolly mentioned that approximately 80% of nursing homes are now in the private sector and that 20% are in the public sector.

Ms Mary Dunnion

That is correct.

Does HIQA notice any difference between the 80% and the 20%? In the context of the 20%, what is HIQA happy or unhappy about, or vice versa, particularly if there is a different culture operating within the organisations?

Ms Mary Dunnion

To be fair, we see excellent services in both the public and private sector and we sometimes come across poor services in both. The determinant of a good service is the person in charge, the management, the oversight and the assurance.

It does not differentiate between public and private.

The witness does not have a particular concern in respect of the private or public sector specific to the ownership-----

Ms Mary Dunnion

I do not have a concern regarding the care. With more and bigger private nursing homes, one must be careful to consider their financial viability because there is evidence from other jurisdictions where financial viability was not looked at and nursing homes went. That is a consideration because more and more nursing homes are grouping together.

HIQA has been existence for ten years and this is its first time before the Committee of Public Accounts so I ask the witnesses to bear in mind that members of the committee do not have the same knowledge of the organisation as would members of the Joint Committee on Health, for example. As chief inspector, the witness is answerable to the Oireachtas.

Ms Mary Dunnion

That is correct.

The Accounting Officer is answerable to us in his own right but Ms Dunnion has a separate reporting role, which I presume is to the Committee on Health or perhaps just the Oireachtas.

Ms Mary Dunnion

The Oireachtas.

As chief inspector, has she been called in to the Oireachtas to report?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

To the Joint Committee on Health.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes, and to the Joint Committee on Children and Youth Affairs.

Mr. Phelim Quinn

There is also a requirement for the chief inspector to publish an annual report that is laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. That forms part of the annual report but we have recently been developing a more detailed report on the work of the regulation directorate.

Is HIQA under the Department of Health?

The Departments of Health and Children and Youth Affairs.

Ms Mary Dunnion

That is correct.

HIQA has a regulatory role in regard to older people and those with disabilities. In County Laois, HIQA had a role with regard to Abbeyleix and St. Brigid's Hospital in Shaen-----

Ms Mary Dunnion

I do not have those details.

There are some units that I would call psycho-geriatric. The witness mentioned dementia. There is a unit in Portlaoise linked to the main hospital. When I inquired locally, I was told that HIQA did not investigate it but rather the Mental Health Commission is responsible. Where does HIQA end and where does the Mental Health Commission start and are both organisations fulfilling a similar role? Is there a need for the two separate organisations? Psychiatric-geriatric patients should be under the remit of HIQA because they are geriatric but the Mental Health Commission might believe it is responsible for them because they are psychiatric patients. Where is the line drawn?

Ms Mary Dunnion

The relevant legislation sets out what a designated centre is defined as and that determines the issue. If somebody is providing a service, they register with HIQA as a designated centre and we inspect the service in the context of the regulations. However, the Chairman is correct that there are models - this also arises in respect of disability- where there is a combination of people with both a disability and a mental health illness. That is a challenge.

Which organisation takes charge in such a situation?

Ms Mary Dunnion

Once a patient comes under the remit of a designated residential centre, HIQA is responsible.

Who decides what constitutes a designated centre?

Ms Mary Dunnion

It is defined in the legislation.

It is black and white.

Ms Mary Dunnion

Yes.

There are no joint inspections.

Ms Mary Dunnion

No. There is no remit for that.

The witness understands the reason for my question.

Ms Mary Dunnion

There are opportunities there but currently that is not-----

I have learned something today and I am always big enough to say when I have learned something new. HIQA inspects the areas it regulates such as those for older people and those with disabilities but it also often inspects hospitals. That confuses many members of the public. I do not have to mention the report into the Midland Regional Hospital, Portlaoise. The public believes HIQA has a role in regard to general hospitals because it can be seen performing a statutory-----

Ms Mary Dunnion

HIQA has a monitoring role.

The witness calls it monitoring. I have just learned the difference between those two terms. The public at large thinks HIQA has a role in respect of hospitals because it often issues reports in that regard. There is significant misunderstanding of its role.

Ms Mary Dunnion

I often think they think there are about 100 people in health care when there are only 15.

People think HIQA oversees all hospitals and the witness can understand that confusion arises because HIQA issues reports on hospitals. People do not know the difference between a statutory investigation, a monitoring role and regulatory inspection.

I want to move on to the witnesses' colleagues from the Department of Health. I do not expect Dr. Kathleen MacLellan to be able to immediately answer my next question and perhaps the departmental officials will forward the answer to the committee. The health sector in Ireland includes the HSE, which has total annual expenditure of approximately €13.5 billion, and private health care centres and private hospitals, which probably account for another couple of billion euro in annual expenditure. Do the witnesses know the financial turnover in the areas they regulate? Out of the €15 billion or €16 billion total expenditure in the health sector, is it possible that only 20% of the sector in terms of scale of activity is regulated? Millions of people go through the hospital system. Can any of the witnesses give me a general picture of the value of the disability and nursing home sectors and what level of expenditure those sectors are responsible for relative to the total health spend and not just the HSE Vote? This is the Committee of Public Accounts and such questions have to be asked here. People know approximate figures. It is possibly not something the witnesses have specifically thought about but can they give me an indication of what percentage of health services in Ireland is regulated by HIQA? Most people think it has a particular role but I am beginning to appreciate that only a fraction of the total health spend is regulated by HIQA. Am I correct in that?

Ms Mary Dunnion

HIQA only regulates designated centres for disability------

I will not ask her to guess but can the witness give a general answer to my question?

Ms Mary Dunnion

I do not know the expenditure nor what organisations are funded for. I do not have that detail.

Does Dr. MacLellan understand the question I am asking?

Dr. Kathleen MacLellan

I do. We will come back to the committee with an answer.

It can be sent to the committee. I want to know the difference between what is regulated, the monitoring role and what is in the health Vote but neither monitored nor regulated. Home help was mentioned, as were section 39 organisations.

I want to put on the record that 40 patients are currently on trolleys in University Hospital Galway and two theatres were closed in Merlin Park University Hospital as a result of a leak. That puts health and safety in perspective.

The first question I was going to ask the witnesses today was for them to explain the trolley crisis in accident and emergency departments but I learned during the course of the meeting that HIQA has nothing to do with that.

Has a vote been called in the Dáil? It is not on the screen.

This session is now completed. I thank the witnesses for taking part in the first visit by HIQA to the Committee of Public Accounts. As Chairman of the committee, I am very impressed that the 2016 financial statements of HIQA were finalised, audited and signed off by May 2017. If other public bodies were as prompt with their financial reporting it would be a great lesson for the rest of the public service. As there were no issues in respect of the HIQA accounts, can we agree to dispose of HIQA's 2016 financial statements? Agreed.

We will now suspend until 2.30 p.m. because there is a briefing on protected disclosure by the Parliamentary Legal Adviser in private session. There will be a short public session at 2.30 p.m. to deal with correspondence we did not get to in this morning's session.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 1.20 p.m and resumed in public session at 2.40 p.m.
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