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COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 2023

Chapter 4: Re-allocation of Voted Funding

Ms Katherine Licken (Secretary General, Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media) called and examined.

Apologies have been received from Deputies Paul McAuliffe, Verona Murphy and Alan Dillon who are tied up in other parliamentary duties. I welcome you all. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that the witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Today, we are joined by Ms Colette Drinan, secretary and director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is deputising for the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. Ms Drinan is accompanied by Mr. Leonard McKeown, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will engage with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to examine the following: Appropriation Accounts 2021, Vote 33 – Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, and the 2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services, Chapter 4, Re-allocation of Voted Funding.

We are joined by the following representatives from the Department: Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General; Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, assistant secretary, tourism and sport; Mr. Conor Falvey, assistant secretary, arts and culture; Dr. Aodhán Mac Cormaic, stiúrthóir na Gaeilge; Ms Tríona Quill, assistant secretary, broadcasting and media; and Mr. Joe Healy, acting assistant secretary, corporate affairs. We are also joined by the following official from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform: Mr. Dermot Nolan, principal officer. I welcome you all.

I call on Ms Colette Drinan, secretary and director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, to make her opening statement.

Ms Colette Drinan

The 2021 Appropriation Account for Vote 33 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media had total gross expenditure of almost €1.1 billion. This was distributed across five expenditure programmes, and included funding for a wide range of downstream agencies tasked with distributing grant assistance for activities and development in their respective areas. These bodies are listed in an appendix to the appropriation account.

The Department spent almost €222 million under the tourism services programme, of which €122 million went to Fáilte Ireland. Spending on the arts and culture programme amounted to €313 million. Some €130 million went to support the operations of the Arts Council. A further €122 million went towards the recurrent funding of museums, galleries and other national and regional cultural institutions.

Screen Ireland received funding of €30 million in the year.

Expenditure on the Gaeltacht programme totalled €73 million. Payments to support the work of Údarás na Gaeltachta totalled €32 million, including €14 million made available for grants for projects and capital expenditure on premises. Expenditure on the sports and recreation services programme in 2021 was €207 million. This included €165 million in funding to Sport Ireland. The Department spent €272 million under the broadcasting programme. Some €237 million was expended on grants to RTÉ and TG4 to fund their public service broadcasting commitments. Also included in the broadcasting programme is expenditure of almost €24 million paid to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, for the broadcasting fund.

On the receipts side, appropriations-in-aid amounted to €235 million in 2021, of which €221 million was in relation to television licence fee receipts. The surplus remaining at the year-end was €41 million. The Department got the agreement of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to carry over €18 million in unspent capital funding to 2022. The balance of €23 million was due for surrender to the Central Fund of the Exchequer.

The Comptroller and Auditor General issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the appropriation account. However, the audit report draws attention to chapter 4 of the report on the accounts of the public services for 2021. This examined compliance with the procedures for reallocation of funding between Vote subheads in a number of Votes. In the case of Vote 33, the Department received sanction from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to transfer €8.1 million unspent on the arts and culture programme to the broadcasting fund. The Department sought permission for this transfer to meet what it described as emerging pressures in relation to the Sound and Vision fund. In the event, the broadcasting fund did not spend the additional funding in 2021.

The transfer increased the money available to be paid into the broadcasting fund by 48%. Public financial procedures suggest that in such cases, best practice would require that a Supplementary Estimate be taken. A Supplementary Estimate for Vote 33 was approved in December 2021, but the transfer to the broadcasting fund was not included in it, even though it was approved around the same time. Without the approval for the transfer, the €8 million would have been added to the surrender to the Exchequer at the year end.

Ms Katherine Licken

A Chathaoirligh agus a chomhaltaí den choiste. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil libh as an deis a thabhairt dom an ráiteas seo a dhéanamh inniu. Gabhaim buíochas freisin le hOifig an Ard-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste as an mbealach proifisiúnta a rinne a chuid oifigigh an obair a bhí riachtanach i ndáil leis an gcuntas sin.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to address the committee in relation the 2021 appropriation account for the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. I would like to express my thanks to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for the professional manner in which the important task of auditing the Department's appropriation account was carried out. I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Joe Healy, corporate; Ms Triona Quill, broadcasting and media; Mr. Conor Falvey, arts and culture; Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, tourism and sport; and Mr. Aodhán Mac Cormaic, Gaeltacht and Irish language. Mr. Mac Cormaic has been slightly delayed but I have been assured he is on his way.

I am mindful that my last appearance before this committee was a virtual one as a consequence of Covid public health restrictions. I am grateful to be able to address the committee in person today. The World Health Organization, WHO, ended the global emergency status for Covid 19 in May of this year. While the virus is still undoubtedly with us, the world is once again open for travel, hospitality, audiences, sporting events, group participation in live entertainment, to name but a few of the casualties of the pandemic restrictions. I think I speak for all of us when I say how delighted we were in early 2022 to be able to return to a normal level of activity across these sectors.

The Department's 2021 expenditure and programmes are set against the backdrop of an extraordinary and tumultuous two years endured by the sectors, for which we have responsibility, throughout the pandemic. It was a very difficult year from the Department's perspective, with lockdowns and reopenings, the emergence of the Delta variant of Covid in June and the uncertainty around the highly contagious Omicron variant towards the end of the year.

The impact of the pandemic on the sectors for which the Department has responsibility is well documented. It is worth reiterating that these sectors were, and are, very much dependent on visitors to Ireland, on audience participation and community involvement, all of which were ground to a halt during the pandemic. As I said before, these are sectors which thrive when people congregate to enjoy their leisure time together, and they account for a significant amount of employment revenue, social activity and well-being right across the country.

During 2021, the Department continued to put flexible and agile supports in place in response to an ever-changing Covid environment, particularly in instances where horizontal Government supports were not applicable, or were not reaching the sectors effectively. Through a combination of the continuation of some of the interventions introduced in 2020 and the introduction of other new and tailored initiatives, a variety of supports were made available to mitigate against the most severe impacts of Covid 19 across the tourism, arts, Gaeltacht, sport and media sectors. Expenditure on all of the Department's Covid initiatives is captured in the chapter on Covid 19 expenditure in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the accounts of the public service for 2021 and 2022.

The supports available included business continuity supports operated by Fáilte Ireland. This included supports for coach tourism, outdoor dining adaptation funding to facilitate safe reopening when permitted, and renewed marketing activity for both domestic and overseas markets. It included live entertainment supports, which were delivered directly by our Department and provided significant job opportunities with thousands of musicians, performers, crew and support staff benefiting over the summer months in particular, while also supporting the continued production of high quality artistic output.

We had targeted support for SMEs supplying services to the event sector, which was significantly impacted by restrictions. We had support for Irish language summer colleges in the Gaeltacht, including support for eligible Gaeltacht families who normally provided accommodation for students.

In the sports sector, encompassing the three main sportsfield organisations, FAI, GAA and IRFU, we had a resilience fund to support the other national governing bodies of sport. We also provided a sports club resilience fund to support clubs from all sports and a resumption of sport and physical activity fund.

Exchequer-funded rounds of the Sound and Vision scheme were put in place to support live music and the commercial radio sector and they were put in place by the BAI, now known as Coimisiún na Meán, acknowledging the key role the media sector played in sharing trusted news and local information within communities.

These initiatives were informed by intensive engagement by the team here across all of the sectors during 2020 and 2021 and through the work of the hospitality and tourism forum, the arts and cultural recovery task force, the tourism recovery task force, the return to sport expert group, the sport monitoring group and the return to spectators working group. These were established by Ministers to provide a forum for structured engagement and consultation and to chart a way through the pandemic and beyond.

The Government's response to Covid19 in respect of these sectors recognised their importance domestically and internationally and individually and collectively. These sectors have reopened and are stabilising and recovering, but it has been challenging. The Department has supported, and will continue to support, the sectors as they journey from crisis to recovery.

Notwithstanding the priority that had to be afforded to the delivery of Covid-related support in 2021, the Department continued in parallel to pursue its core objectives, and to progress a number of key policy priorities throughout the year. Significant work was also required to embed the tourism, sports and media functions on foot of the 2020 departmental reconfiguration, which happened in mid-2020, after the election. The development of hybrid working arrangements was also progressed, as and when lockdowns and reopenings allowed.

Among milestones reached in 2021 were the announcement of major investments valued at more than €60 million under Fáilte Ireland's platform for growth to rebuild the tourism sector, providing sustainable employment across the country. The creative climate action fund was launched as part of the Creative Ireland programme. It supported 15 creative cultural and artistic projects building awareness around climate change and climate action, and empowering citizens to make meaningful behavioural changes.

Cruninniú na nÓg was a national day of free creativity for young people which took place in June 2021. Hundreds of events, mostly online, took place across the country. The implementation of the 2021 programme of the decade of centenaries, included a series of events to commemorate the centenary of the Anglo-Irish Treaty, which marked the end of the War of Independence, a key event of the decade.

The report of the night-time economy task force was published. This included recommendations and proposed actions across a range of Departments, agencies and the night-time economy sector, which is a new policy area for the Department.

The Official Languages (Amendment) Act 2021 was signed into law by the President of Ireland in December 2021. On 31 December 2021, the derogation on the Irish language as an official working language of the European Union was ended. This was a huge milestone for the language. The second annual progress report on the 20 year strategy for the language was published.

There was a €4 million investment in Sport Ireland's women in sport programme over 2021 and 2022. Some €16.6 million in grants was awarded to approximately 1,000 applicants for equipment projects under the sports capital programme.

There was the publication of a sports action plan for the period up to 2023 to support the sector's continued recovery from the impact of Covid-19 and to focus on the implementation of goals as set out in the national sports policy. There was a new high-performance strategy for the sporting sector, which was launched in June 2021. There was Government approval for the integration of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill into the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill, which has since been enacted. There was the publication of the report of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media on the Bill in November 2021. The Future of Media Commission also completed its deliberations in 2021 and submitted its report to the Taoiseach and Minister.

Across all of Government, the importance of the sectors supported by the Department as core and vital contributors to the economy, employment, societal and mental wellbeing as well as societal integration and development continues to be recognised. The Department will continue its work in supporting, maintaining and developing these sectors, not forgetting the agencies, local authorities, organisations, clubs and the many participants and volunteers who all actively and regularly engage with these sectors.

I wish to reiterate my commitment as Accounting Officer to ensure all the supports, projects and initiatives under the remit of the Department reflect current best practice and are managed in accordance with the provisions of the public spending code and all relevant Government circulars. The Department continues to draw on lessons from the past and will develop the most effective structures and processes, which will allow us to deliver most effectively and efficiently for our very many stakeholders. I am happy to expand on any of these areas should the committee members wish.

I thank Ms Licken. The first committee member is Deputy Alan Kelly, who has 15 minutes.

I thank Ms Licken for coming in and I want to acknowledge all the work the Department did during Covid-19. The Department was central to everything, given the situation we were in.

The first issue I want to raise is quite a topical one, namely, hotel prices. I have a lot of history in this area. I used to work in Bord Fáilte before I took the mad decision to go into politics. I know the history of how this all works. I know the registration process, the maximum price process, etc.

We have been hearing all these stories about Taylor Swift, and I have two young children who are coincidentally on a Dáil tour today. I told them about how difficult it was for so many young people to get tickets. That is one thing. I also told them about the situation as regards hotels. I know the whole situation about booking one year in advance, but we all know where this is going. To channel my inner Taylor Swift, they more or less said that the Government and this Department need to "Shake it Off" as there will be "Bad Blood" if hotel prices go in the direction we think they are going in relation to events like this and at other peak times. You can "Call it What You Want" but I will call it price gouging, which it is. When you consider that the hotel sector got so much support during Covid-19, it did not think in its "Wildest Dreams" that it would be in this situation where it can charge absolutely extortionate rates across this city. It is happening this very night, if you look it up. Now that it is "Out of the Woods", it is disrespecting the people of Ireland, the taxpayers of Ireland and visitors to Ireland. It is embarrassing our country where an index shows that we are now dearer than many cities across Europe, including London, Paris and so on. If this continues, we need to tell it, "You're on Your own, Kid".

I know I am having a bit of fun in using those song titles, but I am very experienced in the area of tourism. I think I am the only person here who has worked in Fáilte Ireland. I registered discoverireland.ie. I built our national tourism database with colleagues. I have never seen what is going on at the moment. Under the Tourism Traffic Act 1939, there is a list of maximum prices in every hotel room. This is the registration process. Will the Department, working with the Minister, look at changing this to have prices that are realistic? When it comes to accreditation, in other words, the rating of one to five stars, will value for money be part of it? I will say it out straight. If this does not happen, I will table legislation to do that. Is there any change afoot in the Department in relation this?

I have three questions and I am sorry to ask for short answers, but I want to get through them.

Ms Katherine Licken

In a moment, I might ask my colleague, Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, to elaborate further-----

Very quickly. I would prefer if it was one person, because I do not have much time.

Ms Katherine Licken

That is okay. We are acutely aware of this issue and we have raised it with the industry. The Ministers will be meeting with the industry next week. We have stressed to the industry the importance of reputation, and the reputation of Ireland as a value-for-money destination. We are also critically conscious that the sector has its own pressures. It is dealing with the cost of living and with energy pressures also. Nonetheless, there is a reputational issue for Ireland. This is not happening across the board. There are obviously pinch points in Dublin. We understand supply will increase in Dublin in the coming years and that should ease that competitive pressure and should hopefully bring prices down. However, we are very mindful of this issue. As the Deputy said, it is a year out and you cannot book tickets-----

Ms Katherine Licken

-----and book hotel rooms as of yet.

I was just using that as an example.

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes.

The reality is that I do not believe this sector will regulate itself. This needs regulation. What is going on in Dublin is a disgrace. It is a national disgrace. It is embarrassing to our country. People will not be able to come to this country because it is too expensive. What is happening is Dublin, in particular, is letting down the rest of the country. There are issues in Cork, Limerick, Waterford and in other places. Do not get me wrong. Yet, we have to intercept it. An amendment to the Act is needed to do so. Is that planned? I am sorry but talking to the industry is a waste of time.

Ms Katherine Licken

If the Deputy wants to table legislation, that would be a policy matter for Ministers. We have engaged quite extensively with Fáilte Ireland and the industry. Does Mr. Ó Lionáin want to add anything there?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

To add to that, as recently as a few months ago, the chief executive of Fáilte Ireland, Paul Kelly, wrote to all operators in the sector, again emphasising-----

I spoke to him yesterday about it.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

-----the long-term value. As the Secretary General said, this is an issue we are acutely aware of. There are a number of key compression weekends every year. It is not unique across Europe. We recognise Dublin is at the higher end of the European prices.

There are a lot of people who have to stay up here on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights and they have experience of this. These are not just Deputies and Senators, but people who come before the committees as witnesses. It costs €250. For anyone who is travelling within Ireland, that is outrageous. That is the price of pretty basic accommodation. It is not sustainable and it has to be dealt with. If no action is taken by the Department, we in the Oireachtas will have to do something about it, and very quickly.

I want to move on to the second question, which relates to tourism and sport, namely, the Ryder Cup. We have committed €40 million towards this project. That is fine. What other commitments have been made? This is the lead Department on this. Have other commitments been made by other Departments in relation to this? How much will the location of this event, Adare Manor, be contributing towards this project?

Ms Katherine Licken

Considerable work has taken place to date to ensure the successful delivery of the Ryder Cup 2027 and to produce a lasting legacy in the Limerick region and beyond, in Ireland, as a whole, as a destination for golf. It is an important sporting and tourism initiative.

I understand that. I want a brief outline.

Ms Katherine Licken

We have a steering group that has been established to aid the successful delivery of the Ryder Cup as a legacy for Limerick and beyond. This facilitates a central Government approach-----

Sorry, can I just have the figures, please?

Ms Katherine Licken

I do not have the figures. Does Mr. Ó Lionáin want to provide any more detail-----

Sorry, time is an issue.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The overall investment over the number of years leading up to the Ryder Cup, including all the peripheral events and other golf events that go along with it will be above €50 million. We are budgeting approximately €58 million.

Is that all by the Department, or will some of it come from elsewhere? Obviously, a new road is being built. Is that included in that figure? We will round the figure up to €60 million. Is that road involved in that?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

It is broken down under a range of headings, including licence fee payment and funding to other events, such as the Irish Open, the Irish Legends tour, the Challenge tour, marketing etc.-----

That is all taxpayers' money.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

It is, yes.

How much is Adare Manor paying towards it?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The relationship between the golf course and Ryder Cup Europe is directly between them. We are aware of it having to do extensive work on the course.

I appreciate that. It has done a huge job in fairness to it.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

We are not privy to the commercial details.

To clarify this, because there are taxpayers out there watching, with regard to the overall event coming to Ireland we have had to pay Ryder Cup Europe. Did the location have to pay Ryder Cup Europe as well?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

As I said, the relationship there is-----

No, did it or did it not have to pay Ryder Cup Europe?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

We are not privy to details of their commercial relationship.

We made a contribution towards bringing the Ryder Cup to Ireland which, by the way, I agree with. I was at the last one. I was working in Fáilte Ireland at the time. We do not know the total amount paid for the Ryder Cup to come to Ireland between public and private.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

We are fully over the public investment. As I said, the on-course work is a matter directly between Ryder Cup Europe and the course.

No, that is not what I asked. I asked how much we are paying collectively, public and private. Surely the taxpayers of Ireland would not be making a contribution if we did not know the total quantum amount. What I am trying to get at is the percentage being paid by the taxpayer versus the private amount. Surely there is no way it would be sanctioned by a Government, or by Dermot Nolan's Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, if we did not know the quantum amount. What is the total amount? Then we can deduct the €60 million from it. What is the contribution towards the Ryder Cup? Then we can deduct the public amount from it. If Mr. Ó Lionáin does not have the figures he should just say so but I would find it to be absolutely extraordinary.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

To respond to the question about value for money, in terms of assessing the bid for the Ryder Cup a number of years ago-----

That is not what I asked. I will be very clear. A payment was made to Ryder Cup Europe. The taxpayer paid part of it or all of it. If it is all of it just say so. If it is not all of it then it had to be done in partnership so what was the total amount between public and private? Then we can deduct the public amount and find out the private amount. If Mr. Ó Lionáin does not know this figure he should just say so. On top of this, I know the venue has to make big changes. In fairness, I admire this and I acknowledge it. I just want to know how much is the contribution, based on the total amount, from the taxpayer versus the private sector.

Ms Katherine Licken

We will revert to the Deputy on this. We certainly do not have figures here.

There is no problem with that, and time-wise it would be better. I ask the Department to provide all of this. Let us be clear that I have made these questions very obvious. I want to know the public versus private amounts paid for the Ryder Cup and the total amount paid in relation to the overall project, which is now €60 million. I ask the Department to break this down for us. What Adare Manor has to do privately is a matter for itself. I do not think the total amount paid for the Ryder Cup is a matter for Adare Manor because that is an Irish figure. The public aspect of it could not and should not have been sanctioned unless we knew the total amount afterwards. I appreciate that.

Ms Katherine Licken

We will come back to the Deputy.

My next questions relate to sport. I was very complimentary to Sport Ireland last week but I was also taken aback. There is great confusion about its role. Sport Ireland is not regulator. It stated it has no role in large-scale capital allocations made directly from the Department or in sports capital. I will be honest; I was shocked by what happened with regard to sports capital funding under the previous Government and the changes that were brought about all of a sudden, the fact there were reviews and the fact that everything changed. Three sporting facilities in the area of the former Minister which were very close to one another, one of them a private school, got €150,000 each after a review. That was quite shocking. I do not ever want to see that happening again. I do not think the Department wants to see it happen again. The witnesses are nodding so I know they are in agreement with me.

Sport Ireland should be in charge of all capital funding. Sports capital should not be within the Department as otherwise there is no reason for Sport Ireland to exist. Sport Ireland administers for all of the organisations. With regard to any large capital funding given to various projects, such as Páirc Uí Chaoimh, if there is no recommendation and if an holistic approach is not taken to administering sport in Ireland then, in fairness, we cannot ask Sport Ireland to be a regulator as it has two hands tied behind its back with regard to capital funding. Are there are moves afoot to make this change? I strongly recommend to the Cathaoirleach, and I have spoken to him and mentioned it here, that we write a report and make a recommendation to the Government, if I can get my colleagues' agreement, that all of this funding should be within the one organisation. Sport Ireland runs Abbotstown. It does work on capital but it does not do these two areas. Are any changes afoot to make this happen?

Ms Katherine Licken

I watched the proceedings last week and I was particularly taken with Deputy Catherine Murphy's intervention on having criteria for population. There were criteria. Deputy Kelly is referring to the large-scale sports infrastructure programme as opposed to the sports capital-----

No I am referring to both.

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes but I mean when you were speaking about that particular allocation. That was the first round of the large scale sport infrastructure fund. There were criteria.

What shocked me was that Sport Ireland had no opinion on the FAI's large plan for €863 million. It had no opinion on it because that is not its role. How can Sport Ireland not have a role in this?

Ms Katherine Licken

I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to come in on this. Obviously we engage with Sport Ireland all of the time on sports policy and sports funding but capital rests with the Department with regard to those large capital allocations and the sports capital programme. We review-----

Why is Sport Ireland in charge of Abbotstown then?

Ms Katherine Licken

Because it has to run the campus.

Ms Katherine Licken

We provide the funding for the running of the campus.

That still does not add up. There are no plans to change the role.

Ms Katherine Licken

There are no plans at this juncture, no. Certainly on the culture side several years ago the Comptroller and Auditor General recommended that capital development on the arts side would remain in the Department as opposed to with an agency. I am not aware of any proposal to change this on the sports side either. Perhaps Mr. Ó Lionáin wants to comment.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

There are very clear criteria in the sports capital programme. Over the past three cycles there have been very transparent criteria with a rigorous process whereby they are set out in advance. There is a full review of it. A review of the rigor was done last year and the findings were very positive. We can certainly give Deputy Kelly a link to the report.

I have read it.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

There is absolute transparency in terms of distribution. There is county population and need. As Sport Ireland also mentioned last week, it is-----

Is it not strange that Sport Ireland has no role in stating what we need to do and that this is how it should be administered, and to join up the dots with that work that it does?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Under statute the key role of Sport Ireland is about participation and supporting the wider sport ecosystem. It directs funding to national governing bodies. A separate company manages the campus itself. The role of the Department is in securing and fairly allocating sports infrastructure capital throughout the country via sports capital and the large-scale-----

I just think that day is over. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. To ensure that capital is going where it should go optimally, it should go where Sports Ireland advocates. Otherwise bring it back into the Department. It should be one or the other. It is in a halfway house at present.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I will make one more comment. Last week Sport Ireland referred to its own infrastructure projects. By the autumn it will have a map of infrastructural needs around Ireland. This will be a vital component of all the work the Department does.

But it will not be administering it.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

In any event there is seamless engagement between the agency and the Department. We have a team of 25 people dealing with the sports capital programme and the independent review shows that it operates very well.

Before I move to the next speaker I want to go back to the question asked by Deputy Kelly regarding funding from the Adare Manor facility in parallel with the €58 million expected to be put in by the public purse. Did the Department set out any criteria with regard to 20%, 30% or 40% matching funding? For every €10 going in from the taxpayer perhaps there might be €3, €4 or €5 going in from Adare Manor. Have any such criteria been set out with regard to the Ryder Cup?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

We can give the committee a more detailed note on it but my understanding is that at the time of negotiation with Ryder Cup Europe there was a two-pronged approach. Ryder Cup Europe spoke to the State about what the State would bring to it.

Did the Department ask for criteria to be put in whereby there would be a percentage of funding-----

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

No.

-----in tandem with the funding from the State?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

There was no stipulation in terms of minimum investment.

Would it be possible to have the figure that Deputy Kelly has asked for during the meeting? Perhaps the support staff here could get it.

Ms Katherine Licken

If we have it, we will come back to the committee with it.

I will pick up on the Ryder Cup. Obviously, most of us would be in favour of such major events, but they have to be fairly funded. The Ryder Cup was held in The K Club, so I am very familiar with the legacy of good footpaths and such things in the area. They are a good, lasting investment. However, things have changed, only in the past few months, regarding the funding of golf. With the involvement of LIV Golf, for example, big money is coming from Saudi Arabia. I certainly have concerns about sportswashing there. Does that change the nature of the contract because it fundamentally changes the amount of money available? Is this something the Department is considering in the context of the Ryder Cup, or is the contract nailed down at this stage?

Ms Katherine Licken

My understanding, on which I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to comment, is that it is a nailed-down contract at this stage and that plans are very significantly advanced for the event.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I confirm that the contract is the contract. On the approach to the Ryder Cup, we are engaging with Ryder Cup Europe and other stakeholders to try to understand the medium- and long-term implications of what is happening in the game of golf; however, to be honest, that is not clear even to the experts. It is something we are very alive to and we will be keeping a very close eye on it.

What about the involvement of the likes of Saudi Arabia?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Primarily, our focus is on delivering a good event. The first consideration is whether any of the fundamentals have changed in that regard.

As I raised last week, a huge amount of reputational damage is done regarding regulation when something goes wrong. The Olympic Federation of Ireland and the FAI are the two organisations I can point to. There is a financial component when things go wrong. The men's team lacks a sponsor at this stage. Do the witnesses see a gap in regulation, or are they concerned about one? If so, what are they going to do about it?

Ms Katherine Licken

Could I return to the subject of the 2006 Ryder Cup? Its value to the economy was €143 million. We accord the Ryder Cup such priority because we know the contribution it makes.

On governance in sport, in 2017 the then Minister of State, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan, identified corporate governance as a key priority for Sport Ireland-funded bodies, and it was agreed that the community and voluntary code of governance would become a condition of funding. That is the lever that Sport Ireland has. This made it mandatory for all Sport Ireland-funded bodies to start the process of adopting the new code since 2017. In 2019, Sport Ireland took over the governance code as it relates to sports organisations. It is now called Governance Code for Sport. The national sports body tasked Sport Ireland with overseeing a process whereby all governing bodies for sport and local sports partnerships would adopt the code by the end of 2021, and 93 of the 100 organisations have now self-declared their adoption of it. It is a journey that we are on. There are seven organisations yet to go.

My concern is that it is voluntary. There is an element of self-regulation. We did go through this in some detail last week as well, so I will move on.

Ms Katherine Licken

It is voluntary but there is ultimately a penalty funding-wise if the code is not adopted.

I presume the Department continues to have interaction with the FAI. It has a repayable grant associated with the stadium that has to be paid. I wish the sport well because it is obviously very important to communities, but does Ms Licken believe it is in a position to stand alone at this stage? The FAI has a very ambitious plan. I was pleased to see that it is thinking about the future but there is an absence of evidence for how it will be funded. Obviously, there are issues concerning the greyhound and horse fund in respect of the source in question.

Ms Katherine Licken

Greyhound racing and horse racing are obviously separate as they are funded by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, not our Department. The gambling levy does not entail a ring-fenced fund, a hypothecated fund. The FAI had made a point and we raised that in budgetary discussions last year about whether there would be merit in increasing the fund and broadening beyond soccer the number of sports that might benefit from increased funding.

Where there is no ring-fencing, there is a remarkable similarity with the amount taken in. The UK's Gambling Commission estimated that something like 60% of gambling is related to soccer. It may not be as much here because soccer is a bigger sport in the UK. However, there is no doubt that things are not what they were when it was set up, when it was very much the case that people went to a bookmaker's shop rather than online. There has been a substantial change. I hope the Department will continue to pursue that.

Could I ask about two other matters, bearing in mind that I am very short on time? Could the witnesses give me a quick update on the National Archives project? I am aware that there is offsite storage and that things have to be retrieved. It is really welcome, therefore, that we are going to see a very significantly improved storage facility at the archives because there has been a capacity problem for a very long time. What is the position on the project at this stage, and when do the witnesses expect it will be fully completed so we will see the archive functioning as it should?

Ms Katherine Licken

I will ask Mr. Falvey to come in on that in a moment. Overall, on the national cultural institutions, including the National Archives, we have a very exciting programme of development for all the institutions. We are working painstakingly through the public spending code to get to tender stage. The deadline for the submission of tenders has passed. I think we are still examining the tenders in the hope of starting construction very soon.

What is the estimated duration of construction?

Ms Katherine Licken

I do not know, so I will ask Mr. Falvey to respond.

Mr. Conor Falvey

Twelve months is what is anticipated. The tenders are being assessed at present. We hope to have a proposal to go to the Minister by September, or October at the latest. We may get people on site before the end of the year. The build will take most of 2024. Hopefully at some stage in 2025, we will be ready to open. It is a very important project for the archives.

I absolutely agree. Obviously, there are some good digitisation projects going on as we speak, including on the 1926 census. There is a larger large amount of material that cannot be provided properly because it is not catalogued owing to the issue with storage.

Could I ask about large-scale swimming pool projects? I just cannot get my head around this because projects certainly do not seem to follow population. The standard is supposed to be one pool per 50,000 people. That was the benchmark used and I believe it was taken from a Scottish model. In my county, County Kildare, the population is just short of 250,000 but there are just two public pools and none in the north of the county. There was one funded for Lucan, for example, but it has not been built. It is very difficult to come up with the matching funding, even in areas that are growing in population, because of the way the local government fund is structured. I hope that will change a little this year. Does the Department have a model that it can show us? If we are to invest, we need to see a return.

We need to have the ability for people to actually access these kinds of facilities. There is a perception that as you grow, the services grow with you, but that is not the case.

Ms Katherine Licken

The Deputy’s point about the growth of population is well made. One of the recommendations coming out of the review of the last round of the sports capital programme, which involved smaller-scale grants, is that we take account of population. In the case of a swimming pool in the Deputy’s constituency, it applied for funding under the last round of the large-scale sport infrastructure. Population growth will be one criterion and another is the priority a local authority might afford to a given project or how many projects a local authority might be wanting to support at any given time. I ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to come in a bit further on that. The point was well made around population and serving the population. We have not yet got a new round of the large-scale sport infrastructure. We are in discussions around the possibility of that.

I was assured at the time by the Minister that it was the number one priority. Amazingly, it did not get anywhere and the project that was favoured was in his own constituency. I am quite cynical about how the money is allocated.

Ms Katherine Licken

Does Mr. Ó Lionáin wish to elaborate?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

On the specifics of the Maynooth pool application, under the large-scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF, that was an application for strand 1 funding. It was an application for design funding of about €1 million. In considering all of the LSSIF applications that were announced in early 2020, the allocations and scores were based on a number of factors, such as the priority given to the project by the local authority. In this instance, in the case of Kildare, it submitted three separate LSSIF projects for consideration, which then diluted the marks for awarding. Priority was also given to the level of funding being provided by the project sponsor and how the project was likely to increase participation. There was not a specific criterion on population catchment, although of course participation is linked to population. Another important criterion was the disadvantage status of the areas as measured by the Pobal index. On that score, the Maynooth pool fell down compared with others. There was then an independent appeals process. Six projects appealed, including Maynooth. It was reviewed by officials who had nothing to do with the original decision. No mistakes were identified, so the appeal was not granted. That is where things stand on that specific project.

On the national swimming strategy, which will be published in the coming months, there will have to be a strong link between the strategy and delivery, and that is linked to capital funding. That strategy is due out in the coming months.

It has been a difficult period for tourism, particularly as it recovers post Covid. It has been difficult and, in addition to that, there is the war in Ukraine.

I wish to follow on from some of the comments of my colleagues. The sports capital grant programme is representative of one of the most positive parts of what the current Government has implemented. It is one of the most grassroots aspects of our political system, where we can work with local organisations. The funding pot this year was so large that nearly everybody who had a valid application, if not all valid applications, were in some way provided with funding that they need. This is a system that, from top to bottom, if clubs have done the correct and necessary preparation and gone to the trouble of bringing in the people they need, whether it is the agronomists, GAA clubs, soccer clubs, consultants and so on and so forth, there is a positive outcome. That is to be cherished and guarded.

I wish to get a bit of insight into the review done. Do the witnesses mind naming the people who were on that review process?

Ms Katherine Licken

The Deputy was right about the impact. The impact of what sports investment does across the country is astounding, remembering always that we have a huge volunteer cohort across Ireland that contribute to the fabric of society through sports and sports infrastructure. In the last round of sports capital, we had a record €166 million allocated. Over the course of the whole programme since the early 2000s, I think 13,000 projects have benefited to the tune of €1.3 billion. Some €18.4 million was awarded to Cork in projects in the 2020 round.

I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to come in on the review.

I just want a clear answer. Who sits on that review process board?

Ms Katherine Licken

I think it is internal. Does Mr. Ó Lionáin wish to comment?

What are the internal-----

Ms Katherine Licken

Can I just say-----

Unfortunately, I will have to get the answer to that question.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The review was managed by the sports capital division-----

Who sits on the board? Who sits on it? Who are the people?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

It is led by the principal officer in the sports capital division and it involves engagement with stakeholders out there, including-----

Who are the stakeholders?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

-----people who have received grants. The stakeholders are Sport Ireland, the Federation of Irish Sport-----

They have delegates. Would Mr. Ó Lionáin give us the names?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

There is a process of engagement with all of those-----

I acknowledge the process. Chairperson, with all due respect, I am just trying to get an answer my question.

I am chairing the meeting. Sorry. Just hold on for a second. In relation to naming particular people-----

It is a State board.

By all means, give the bodies they represent and their rank and position within those organisations-----

Hang on a second, Chairperson. This is important. This is a State entity and I am entitled to the answer, as are the public. It is a very clear question.

I am chairing the meeting.

Continue, Mr. Ó Lionáin.

But I think I am asking a valid point and I am not getting answer.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I thank the Chair. As I was saying, it is managed and led by the principal officer in the sports capital division of the Department. There is engagement then with a range of national governing bodies, NGBs, and other organisations that benefit from the funding. We invite written engagement and so on. The process runs on for a number of months. Suggestions and proposals are submitted to the Ministers for consideration. On foot of that, a review is published after every round. The most recent round-----

I am very anxious to get an answer to my question and I feel I am being tossed around the tennis court a little bit. Who sits on it?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Again, at the risk of repeating myself----

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

----- it is-----

Give us the answer. If Mr. Ó Lionáin does not want to, it is fine, he can come back to me.

Ms Katherine Licken

We can come back on this. I am just conscious of the Chairman's-----

Does Robert Watt sit on it?

Ms Katherine Licken

No. They are civil servants in our Department.

All in Ms Licken's Department.

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes, that is my understanding.

Do organisations within that unit from other organisations have advisory committees that work on these issues, such as the FAI?

Ms Katherine Licken

I do not understand the question.

I will clarify my question. I refer to organisations that might have been critical of what the Department has structured in the current format of providing the sports capital grant funding. Do they have their own advisory task force groups involving civil servants that may feed into the process?

Ms Katherine Licken

No. The review is undertaken by the civil servants. We have two structures for review in the Department. We have our strategic policy unit, which is entirely separate from all the divisional units – all the policy units. It does assessments as well, as was set out coming into the committee today. It does its assessments and that also feeds into the assessment done by the civil servants in the department of the sports capital programme or any other programme.

What I am coming at-----

Ms Katherine Licken

It is civil servants. There are not representatives that I am aware of from any of the sports bodies on the review group. Are there, Mr. Ó Lionáin?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

No.

Ms Katherine Licken

The review is looking at when such-and-such a club appeals and says “I feel I was unfairly not allocated funding and I want to appeal." The civil servants step through the appeal and decide whether it should get an allocation.

The FAI's comments were particularly strange. I do not know where they originated. It came out criticising horse racing. Everybody here has their own view on the sport. I declare my interest; I am a big lover of it. I found its comments pretty bizarre in that it was critical of the horse and greyhound fund. I recognise and respect other people have different views on it. I know Deputy Catherine Murphy has her views. We live in a democracy. I have a different view. I found that a bit bizarre that in its comments, it was critical of the allocation and of how funding is allocated for certain industries and sports. Is there a particular angle where the FAI wants to see a restructuring of how that funding is allocated at the moment?

I come back to my original point. It is one of the most transparent and healthy parts of democracy and the system allocating funding to organisations that all of us can go in and work in tandem with organisations at a grassroots level in every parish of the countryside and our urban areas and work directly with communities so that they can access funding. Of course, errors were made, particularly in respect of registry. Land registry always comes up as a big issue if there are outstanding problems there. However, any club that filled out the documentation correctly and was within the qualifying criteria in my constituency was allocated funding.

I do not see where the problem comes from and why big sporting bodies are critical of that process when it is as transparent as it is. All the figures are published. The process is published and known. A level of preparation has to be done. I want to get a little bit of insight into this review that has been done by Ms Licken's Department. Is it considering changing the system? If it is, I will say to Ms Licken that it is not a good idea.

Ms Katherine Licken

There are two separate issues here. After every round of sports capital grants, the team reviews it to get the lessons learned. Sometimes, we will get the strategic policy unit to also review and ask whether there is some way we could do better. We always listen to the stakeholders and produce a new scheme. We have produced the latest review, which is suggesting different areas of focus but not a fundamental change to sports capital funding at all. We hear the views of stakeholders. What Deputy Catherine Murphy spoke about and what Deputy O'Connor was talking about in the FAI was a broader comment about funding generally for sport. All sports organisations would share the view that if there was more funding available, that would be great. The FAI just made a particular point and it is the organisation that is visible on that point, which is that if the gambling levy were bigger and available to more sporting organisations, that would be great. I did not detect that the FAI was actually criticising an existing programme like the sports capital programme.

It said horse racing. I felt it was quite critical of horse racing in its comments. That is obviously under the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, however. It is not under Ms Licken's auspices, which I acknowledge. As I said, I cannot see where the major problem is. The amount of money that was allocated was enormous and, hopefully, the next round will be as large, if not larger, given the economic situation. I just get a sense from ongoing commentary and the direction of travel on this that there does seem to be a push towards it.

Let me make the point about large organisations, which I will not name. One might perhaps say that large sporting organisations, or a governing body of sporting organisations, would prefer to have a block grant where they would get the power that lies with Ms Licken's Department whereby they can allocate the funding themselves centrally. I would argue that would be a disaster if that were allowed to occur.

Ms Katherine Licken

They do get funded separately by Sport Ireland but not on the capital front. I do not know if Mr. Ó Lionáin wants to come in with any further comment.

It is not to the same scale. It is important to reference that. I am aware of that but it is not at the same scale.

Ms Katherine Licken

There are no proposals to change the system, as I mentioned earlier. There is no proposal at the moment to change the system. Does Mr. Ó Lionáin want to comment?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I thank the Deputy. The organisation to which the Deputy referred, for instance, along with a range of other organisations, gets core funding from Sport Ireland, which is really an assistance to it to help to run the organisation. That has nothing to do with capital. Each review round of the sports capital programme that is done by the officials in my Department takes the lessons learned. We had 3,000 grants that went out last time. Issues arise all the time in every round as sport evolves so those lessons are learned and addressed in the next round. There was engagement with Sport Ireland and the Federation of Irish Sport, which is the umbrella for all of the sports organisations. They get feedback on what worked well and what worked less well. There also would have been engagement with Cara, which is the disability umbrella group. That is all fed back into the mix and the officials in the Department make recommendations to the Minister. This is a very standard process. As I said earlier, a review that was done of the sports capital programme, to which the Deputy referred, showed that it is transparent and robust. Our aim is to maintain funding at an appropriate level into the future.

I will close with a comment and not a question because my time is up. All I am trying to say to the witnesses is that what is there is working and they should not give into the pressure.

I call Deputy Munster.

I will start by saying that representatives from Fáilte Ireland told us they engaged in a scoping exercise, if you like, and identified 30,000 short-term tourist lettings of which they were not aware, which is the equivalent of approximately 130,000 beds. Has Ms Licken had sight of that? Have they forwarded that information on to the Department? What has the Department done with that information?

Ms Katherine Licken

I thank the Deputy. I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to come in on that and to comment on the short-term letting legislation. Obviously, as the Deputy knows, the process has been paused somewhat at the European Commission. Obviously, until a registration system is actually in place, we will never get absolute numbers in terms of the number of short-term lettings. However, that is Fáilte Ireland's best estimate of the numbers that have been taken out of the system. Mr. Ó Lionáin might like to comment.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I thank the Deputy. Because a register does not exist, the information was not readily there. Fáilte Ireland effectively had to scrape data from a range of online platforms. Its initial estimate was that maybe 12,000 units could feasibly go back to housing. It did a second run at it and now its estimate is approximately 10,400 units. That is only a best estimate, however. It points to the need for a short-term letting register. As it happens, colleagues from the Department will be engaging tomorrow with the European Commission as to its views on it. We will have more information then on the likely timing of that process.

With regard to the properties identified, have those been passed on to the Department or are they still with Fáilte Ireland?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

It gave us a report. We do not have a list of 10,400 properties. It gave us its assessment with the caveat that this is an assessment based on what is available online. It is impossible to verify.

Was the figure not nearer 30,000?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

No. Fáilte Ireland estimates that there are 30,000 properties in the entire sector and that the regulatory changes, if they come in, would nudge or encourage 10,000 to 12,000 properties back into long-term rental or other housing solutions.

I thank Mr. Ó Lionáin for that. I want to ask further about the Willis Towers Watson review that is being carried out by RTÉ regarding the gender pay gap and also the blatant pay disparity between Irish-language workers and those who do their work through the English language. Has the Department engaged with RTÉ around the review at all? Has the review been completed? Does Ms Licken have a date?

Ms Katherine Licken

I thank the Deputy. The review is ongoing. We engage with RTÉ across a range of issues. Obviously, it is an operational matter for RTÉ itself. There are 160 different grades in RTÉ so it is complex. I know representatives from RTÉ appeared before various committees on this matter. The chair in April confirmed that the pay parity between the Irish-language workers and their English-language counterparts would be dealt with in the review. We understand that the review will be due in the coming months, possibly September. Ms Quill might want to comment a bit further.

No, it is fine once I have the review date. It is not completed as yet. That is fine.

Can Ms Licken give us figures or an update on the tourist accommodation centres and hotels that are currently under contract with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth? Does she have figures for that?

Ms Katherine Licken

I think there are 54,000 people in serviced accommodation as opposed to people living in people's houses from the figures that are out. Obviously, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth collates these figures. It is not our Department that collates them. Does Mr. Ó Lionáin want to come in?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

As the Secretary General said, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth produced statistics that tell us there are 54,000 people living in serviced accommodation, which would include hotels and other tourism-type accommodation. At the moment, we are offering help to the Department to drill into those figures to understand them better. Fáilte Ireland is assisting with the interpretation of that box of data, if you will, to understand better how many are hotels and how many are other types of accommodation. That is a piece of work that I think will come to a conclusion in the coming week or two. We should have a much clearer picture of how that breaks down then.

Okay, that is perfect. I thank Mr. Ó Lionáin. I want to touch on something I am blue in the face raising with Fáilte Ireland and the Minister, which is the rip-off hotel price gouging and the long-term reputational damage it is doing to the country. Fáilte Ireland was able to tell us that the figures for advance bookings from Britain this year are down, and that there are similar indications from the rest of Europe. Therefore, the reputation is out there. Lonely Planet posted a very critical review of the damage and the high costs in Ireland with specific reference to the price gouging going on in hotels. It seems the Irish Hotels Federation more or less said it is not its problem.

I know Fáilte Ireland had addressed its conference and had also written to the businesses in the sector, but to no avail, as we have seen. There are other countries in Europe that separate the 9% VAT rate and there are countries where hotels do not get it. Has the Department ever advocated for something similar with the Minister?

Ms Katherine Licken

This issue arose earlier in the context of the forthcoming Taylor Swift concert. We have continuously, as have Fáilte Ireland and Ministers, impressed upon the sector the reputational importance of-----

I know that. I know the Department is banging its head off a wall because once they got the extension of the VAT reduction, it was happy days, and they have certainly not passed it on to the customers, so they are under no pressure whatsoever. My question is whether other countries have taken hotels out of the reduced VAT rate and given it to other sectors in the hospitality sector. Has the Department ever advocated for a similar thing, given the price gouging and the rip-off that is going on? Did it advocate that with the Minister, and when and where?

Ms Katherine Licken

When we were discussing the VAT rate generally both with the sector and with the Department of Finance, which is the body responsible for VAT, not our Department, we would have looked at all scenarios in terms of supporting the sector. In the end, the Minister for Finance agreed to an extension of the 9% VAT rate until the end of August.

My question is specific. The Department would have examples of other countries in Europe that did not offer the VAT reduction and price gouging was not going on to anywhere near the extent it is here. Did the Department advocate for that particular type of-----

Ms Katherine Licken

We advocated for the continuation of the 9% generally, just because the sector was so scarred coming out of Covid. We advocated for the 9% generally but we also would have looked at whether there was a possibility of splitting it, if the 9% was not available for all.

Ms Katherine Licken

We do not know if it is actually doable and that is up to the Department of Finance to decide.

It has been done in other European countries.

Ms Katherine Licken

It may be doable there. I do not know whether it is doable here. That is something we would have to engage on with the Department of Finance.

The Department has not done that, has it not?

Ms Katherine Licken

We looked at a range of scenarios in terms of VAT generally. That is an option that potentially could be considered but only if it is feasible, and we would have to see if it is feasible. I recall that, during Covid, the issue came up around restaurants, and the Deputy will recall the restrictions.

I would like an answer to the question.

Ms Katherine Licken

That was very difficult to split then because hotels had restaurants that were frequented by people who were not guests of the hotel. It is not straightforward. Mr. Ó Lionáin may want to add to that.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

In our previous engagement with the Department of Finance, which controls this, the split option has come up in conversation but the focus was on retaining it for the entire sector. My understanding is that while a split rate has happened elsewhere, there are real complications in terms of, for example, where there is a restaurant in a hotel, how to split the restaurant from the accommodation.

Did the Department inquire as to how other countries manage to do it hassle free?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

As the Secretary General said, it is fundamentally a matter for the Department of Finance to carry out that kind of cross-European analysis.

The Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media issued a report on working conditions and skills in the hospitality sector, and the committee has had unions and workers in on the shocking pay and conditions. Eleven recommendations were made. Can the Department outline how many of those recommendations it has implemented?

Ms Katherine Licken

I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to take that question. To go back to the Deputy’s last question on the VAT rate, another complication which we have to bear in mind with regard to prices being very high is that it is not uniform across the country.

Ms Katherine Licken

There are parts of Ireland where hotels may be struggling or offering good value, but we cannot just split it and say there is one VAT rate here and one rate there. That is another-----

You have to think of long-term reputational damage also.

Ms Katherine Licken

Absolutely. We have reminded the industry of that. On every occasion, we have reminded the industry of that. Mr. Ó Lionáin might want to come in on the employment issues.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

On the joint committee's report, we have done an initial assessment and written back to the committee on that. We have highlighted that it would be useful to tease out with the committee a number of the recommendations in more detail. We have also met colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. As to giving the Deputy a precise answer on how many will be recommended, I cannot give her that answer now because we need further engagement with the Oireachtas committee. Nonetheless, it is a key item on our work agenda for 2023.

There will be a second round of questions if members want to come back in a second time. I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as a bheith linn agus as ucht na cuir i láthair. Ba mhaith liom díriú isteach, i dtosach báire, ar na sonraí ar chaiteachas ar chúrsaí Gaeilge.

I want to look at some of the Irish-language spending. In the first instance, it is very welcome that funding for the Irish language has largely recovered to pre-recession levels, as that was very badly needed. The language is on life support in some senses and it very much needs that extra funding if we are to make significant headway, in particular in regard to forwarding the 20-year strategy for the Irish language, which we are over halfway through at the moment.

It is a similar trend that we are seeing under a lot of the spending subheads, where we have had significant underspend. Looking at programme C, which covers the Gaeltacht, we had planned for a spend of €81 million and the underspend is €8 million, which is a substantial 10% underspend. That is the programme that covers things like Údarás na Gaeltachta, for example, to which I will return. There was also an underspend of €1 million on the Irish language strategy for the second year in a row. On a strategy that is so important and where funding was an issue for so long, people within the Irish-language community will not welcome the fact we did not manage to spend what we had hoped to spend on it.

I want to focus on Údarás na Gaeltachta. We had a lot of discussion on governance last week, in particular governance as it applies to the sporting bodies, and we had Sport Ireland before the committee. Údarás na Gaeltachta is another significant body that is answerable to the Department. I want to ask around the current arrangements and whether the Department is satisfied with the governance. It may be a little early in the process to ask this, but we know that legislation is being prepared with regard to the governance structures of Údarás na Gaeltachta, and it is still undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny. Will Ms Licken outline to the committee what prompted that legislation and what it is about the governance structures that we are trying to restructure by bringing through this legislation?

Ms Katherine Licken

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta agus iarrfaidh mé ar Aodhán Mac Cormaic caint leis an Teachta i gceann tamaill.

In regard to Údarás na Gaeltachta, the legislation is a direct flow from a programme for Government commitment in regard to the board of Údarás na Gaeltachta. In terms of the governance of all of the bodies, it is about having a framework in place. Governance is always about having structures in place that can prevent wrongdoing or mismanagement of funding from happening, that can identify it if it does happen, and that can rectify it and put in place new measures, so it is always evolving. We operate within the code of practice for the governance of State bodies of 2016 and within the framework legislation provided for Údarás and other bodies.

In regard to the underspends, 2020 and 2021 were very difficult years for the Department, as I said earlier. A lot of projects did not happen as fast as they might have done in ordinary times because-----

In fairness, a language programme and something like Údarás are not as capital intensive. I understand that we had a long shutdown of large capital projects, but I would have liked to see an ability to pivot funding to provide supports, particularly for parents who are raising their children trí mheán na Gaeilge. Would it have been possible for us to pivot supports so we were providing high-quality content to them through things like TG4 and Cúla 4, for example?

Ms Katherine Licken

We did that during Covid and we certainly pivoted supports into supporting mná tí, the coláistí samhraidh and the hallaí pobail.

An awful lot of really innovative work is ongoing in our Gaeltacht division in supporting parents and families, exactly as the Deputy said. Some of the language planning - I will ask Dr. Mac Cormaic to come in - takes a while. Sometimes, it does not happen as quickly as we might like. It takes a while to get it right because so much community engagement and involvement are involved.

Dr. Aodhán Mac Cormaic

On the language planning process and the €1 million underspend, it is a demand-led process. It is very important that the money is there when communities are ready to produce their plans and ready to go on implementation. A lot of the first set of plans that were approved five or six years ago came from the very strong web of communities that were ready to go and ready to get out of the traps.

Some of the later plans that were approved were mainly from the weaker Gaeltacht areas where the language is not as prominent or widely spoken as it is in stronger areas. In those cases, it took a lot of facilitation by Údarás na Gaeltachta to get lead organisations established, and groups and people working together, where the language would not be as strong, such as in the likes of the GAA and soccer clubs and that. It was very important that a lot of facilitation work went on there. Over the Covid period, that did not happen as quickly as we expected.

Will Dr. Mac Cormaic give an indication of, or quantify, how far the Covid period set us back? There was good and bad in the figures that came from the census. In some Gaeltacht areas, Gaeltacht na nDéise, mar shampla, we managed to achieve many of the key performance indicators as regards language strategy. It may be a little unusual in that. How far has the 20-year process been set back over the Covid period?

Dr. Aodhán Mac Cormaic

What amazed me about the process was how quickly the sector turned to doing stuff online. I have a whole list I could read out that provides what we did that was funded by the Department, Foras na Gaeilge and Údarás na Gaeltachta. The way people and groups turned things around and started doing things online delivered an awful lot of the activities they committed to delivering in the five-year plan. They just changed and delivered them online. Some of that was very challenging but we managed. If the Deputy looks at the annual report for 2021 on the five-year plan, it is quite impressive. We did not fall behind in any quantifiable sense. Most of what was laid down for 2021 was achieved.

I am keeping an eye on the clock. This might be, as Fr. Jack would describe, an ecumenical matter. I will ask about the conversations that are happening around possibly expanding the remit and role of Údarás na Gaeltachta, particularly in the development of affordable community housing and taking a partnership stake in the development of that. Údarás na Gaeltachta owns a lot of land, particularly within our Gaeltacht communities. Does the Department have a view on allowing it the flexibility to engage in that kind of change in its remit and role?

Ms Katherine Licken

I will ask Dr. Mac Cormaic to come in on this, but it is a policy matter and possibly an ecumenical matter. We are very engaged around housing, and planning and housing, to support Gaeltacht communities and families in bringing up their children through Irish.

Dr. Aodhán Mac Cormaic

Some of those issues will be resolved in the Gaeltacht planning guidelines, which are at an advanced stage. The Department of the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, is anxious to publish them as soon as possible. We had discussions just this week on them. I have also discussed issues around housing, and land use for affordable housing for Gaeltacht communities, with the new CEO of Údarás na Gaeltachta. That is a priority of his. He is new to the job. The board has a particular interest in that issue as well. We obviously have to fit in with national policy as well but it is very much on the radar for the údarás.

There is a significant opportunity. If you are from a Gaeltacht area, the cost of accessing housing in Gaeltacht areas is prohibitive because a lot of people are moving in from outside.

I will turn to a completely separate issue relating to the virement that happened in December 2021. It involved a significant amount of money, an €8 million transfer, or some 48% of the original Estimate, under the broadcasting fund. It was a very significant change of funding from one fund to the other. That is not problematic in and of itself, in some senses, but it was made very close to a Supplementary Estimate being made. Can the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform explain why that money was not included in its Supplementary Estimate, rather than going through this virement process? There is a public financial procedure. I would have expected to see transfers up to this 48% level done through a Supplementary Estimate, particularly when such an Estimate was so close in time to the request made for the virement.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

There is Department guidance on this issue. The Department may decide to refuse a virement if, in its view, the additional expenditure would be on a new service of which the Dáil should be made aware, it is novel or contentious, it is large in relation to the original provision, it is likely to involve significant liabilities in future years, or it arises from a major change in policy. Again, the judgment at the time, and there was lots of other stuff going on around Covid, was that this particular transfer did not actually meet any of those criteria.

It is large in relation to the original provision. It was some 48% of the original provision.

Mr. Dermot Nolan

The point is well made in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report that we possibly need to exercise that judgment more austerely in future. I know that is what happened in 2022.

Whatever about "more austerely", what jumps out at me is the proximity as regards time. The Supplementary Estimate was made within days of this. Did we not have sight of the request for the virement such that it could be included within the Supplementary Estimate and have everything shipshape and above aboard?

Mr. Dermot Nolan

The point in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is well made. This is something where judgment should be exercised more carefully. On the Supplementary Estimate itself, that was to allocate an additional €35 million to sport but was also €30 million in top-up that was allocated to sport by vire-ing from various subheads. The point in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is certainly something we have taken on board. We are looking to see whether a technical Supplementary Estimate is preferable to vire-ing money in future, depending on the amounts of money that are involved.

The Secretary General wishes to come in.

Ms Katherine Licken

I will add some colour and background to that, and more context. We have been discussing the Supplementary Estimate with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform since October. If you recall, 2021 was a hugely difficult year because there was so much uncertainty. We did not know what new schemes there would be. I was trying to count how many schemes we delivered ourselves that year. These were often done at very short notice, when we had to come up a scheme because the sectors were in such trouble. The Supplementary Estimates were discussed with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform from October on, when we did not have visibility on our end-year expenditure. Notwithstanding that, we included €30 million worth of virements in the Supplementary Estimate. It went to the select committee at the end of November and was signed off by the Dáil in December. While technically there was a week between the two, the time-lag was actually bigger. Even in that week, if you were to even take it as a week, we spent €112 million alone.

We also had emerging pressures on the broadcasting side. Local media was in a very difficult space. We saw it as a very good use of a virement to put it into the Sound and Vision fund. We ran three different schemes that came out of it: live music broadcasting projects because live music was in trouble, Irish-language content production, a specific climate-themed round, and a general round of Sound and Vision. That is what it funded.

This past year, we also had a Supplementary Estimate of €35 million where we added €15 million in virements to deal with the energy crisis. We took €15 million in savings on the culture side and put it into energy savings for culture. The point is well made that if a virement is proportionally big relative to where it is going, we will certainly look at it.

We have a remit of almost retrospective oversight of spending whereas the sectoral committees can do that in real time. That is where the Supplementary Estimates come in. It just gives a transparency to the Oireachtas. We all accept how difficult and rapidly changing the environment was, particularly as regards broadcasting. However, as a member of other Oireachtas committees, I would like to see this in front of a sectoral committee rather than being considered retrospectively.

We will take a short ten-minute break. Following that, Deputy Burke will be the first member back in. Deputy Catherine Murphy will briefly take over as Chair because I have to attend a meeting of the Working Group of Committee Cathaoirligh, which the Taoiseach will attend.

Sitting suspended at 11 a.m. and resumed at 11.12 a.m.

I welcome the witnesses. I thank them for their presentations and for dealing with the questions earlier.

I want to focus on the issue of funding for sports capital projects and the co-ordination between the various Departments and local authorities. One of the issues we are focusing on is the building of additional housing and apartments. Is there a policy within the Department to connect with local authorities, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, schools and the Department of Education on the co-ordination of the development of sports facilities? If a sports facility is sited alongside a school or a third level college, maximum use will be made of it. There will probably be a sports club there, probably after 6 p.m. in a lot of cases, or at weekends, but it will not be used between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. unless it is alongside a school or third level college. We are talking about getting value for money for the taxpayer. A lot of money is being allocated in sports grants and development projects, but are we getting value for money? If a sports complex is miles away from a local school or college, it will not generate the same benefit as if it was colocated.

This is particularly the case where we have a huge growth in population. What really brought it home to me recently is an example in Glanmire, County Cork. A lease was granted to the FAI quite a number of years ago for 30 acres alongside a major urban centre. Nothing has happened with the facility and no development has occurred, yet all of the sports organisations in that area are crying out for facilities. What engagement has the Department had with local authorities and the Departments of Education and Housing, Local Government and Heritage about co-ordination and planning for the spending of moneys?

Ms Katherine Licken

I thank the Deputy, and I will ask my colleague Mr. Ó Lionáin to come in on this in a bit. First, I will mention that we engage very clearly with our colleagues. The latest round of the sports capital programme, which was the review of it, recommended that we look at population growth in the allocations for any future round. Obviously, that is really important.

The Glanmire project is an FAI project. They wrote to us in May saying that it did not want to proceed with it. It is funded under the LSSIF but that is a matter for the FAI to decide. We recognise that-----

FAI officials have written to the Department saying that they are not going ahead with it but they still have a lease on the land. Has the Department had any communication with, say, the county council, to know what it is proposed will be done with this 30 acres? We have a problem now in that the city boundary was extended. The urban development has been within the city, not in the county. There is co-ordination between the two local authorities. Surely the Department now has a responsibility to communicate with them to see what is the best use that can be made of that 30 acres for the benefit of the community?

Ms Katherine Licken

We engage with the local authorities, particularly on very large-scale infrastructural projects.

Since the Department got that letter from the FAI in May, has there been engagement with the local authority?

Ms Katherine Licken

I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to come in to see if we have spoken with them directly on that.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

With specific reference to the Glanmire project, our relationship, in the context of the LSSIF, is directly with the FAI. What we have said to it is that we will be open to looking at other options, and that the grant allocation for them is not necessarily dead. The FAI needs to come back to us with other options. Whether that involves Glanmire or other locations in Cork-----

This goes back to the issue of co-ordination with the local authorities. That is an engagement with the FAI, but we now have a problem in that a huge number of houses are being built in this area. On one site alone, 600 new houses are being built. The local schools are bulging at the seams with the number of students that they have to accommodate. I am wondering about facilities then. Surely there must be some communication with the local authorities as well.

Ms Katherine Licken

We are very happy to negotiate. The FAI only confirmed this in May and, therefore, it is only very recently that they have confirmed that they do not want to proceed with Glanmire. We are very happy to consider alternative options for that site, working with the local authority. There is provision to work with local authorities and, to the Deputy's other point, to work with schools.

Could I ask the Department to communicate with local authorities? I am talking about both local authorities, because this land is on the boundary between the city and county. The main benefits would actually be for people living in the city whereas the land is in the county. I ask that this communication would take place.

Ms Katherine Licken

Absolutely.

With regard to forward planning where there are large-scale apartment complexes and housing projects, what level of engagement is there with local authorities once the planning process has been dealt with? In a lot of cases, sports complexes are developed ten, 15 or 20 years after the housing is built, instead of doing it all together. What level of communication has been established with local authorities?

Ms Katherine Licken

We engage with them very frequently, and in the review of the previous round of the sports capital programme, prioritising applications from areas witnessing significant population growth was one of the recommendations. Obviously, we would have to refer to the local authority in that instance. Can Mr. Ó Lionáin elaborate further?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I will refer to both the LSSIF and the sports capital programme, which the Deputy raised earlier. On the LSSIF, local authorities can specifically pitch under it. For instance, there were a number of applications from Cork. We hope that we might get sanction to proceed with a second round of the LSSIF in the not-too-distant future, and of course then, it would be quite open to the local authorities in Cork to come back to us on that.

On the specifics of ongoing engagement with the local authorities, that is something we do, and as it happens, the Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Thomas Byrne, will meet the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien next week to discuss how to improve and deepen that, and so on.

Finally, on the sports capital programme, the Deputy asked about colocation of schools and sports facilities. We actively encourage that. Schools can apply, once they are applying with a sports club. In terms of value for money, where a sports facility can be colocated with a school that is of benefit to the kids during the day and the local community during the evening, that is something that we would very much support.

In both areas, we are actively focused on these issues.

Do the witnesses think we could do more forward planning in that area? This committee is about getting value for money for the taxpayer. Having seen what has occurred in many areas around the country, that co-ordination is coming at a late stage. Could we get better value by having it at a far earlier stage?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

That is a legitimate point. I referred earlier to work Sport Ireland is doing that will allow us to deal more strategically with long-term planning. It will produce a national audit of sports infrastructure in the coming months, which will tell us where the gaps are and where investment should be prioritised, depending on resources. That will allow us to plan more systematically and strategically.

Ms Katherine Licken

We will be happy when we get that to engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the planning authorities to say where we see the gaps and ask where they anticipate the population increases and where the big builds will happen that we would need to plan for, having regard to where we see the gaps.

I return to the refurbishment of the National Gallery. There was funding of €32 million. The OPW, the Department and the National Gallery of Ireland were involved in that. There were issues to be resolved and there was an arbitration process. What was the outcome of the arbitration process? I know it was spread over a number of years but what was the final cost of the project?

Ms Katherine Licken

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Falvey, to come in on this. This is a flagship project started in 2013. Anybody who has been to the gallery will see the value it has produced in the refurbishment of the historic wings and all that has enabled, including exhibitions such as the current Lavinia Fontana exhibition and a multitude of others since the reopening in 2018.

The project was contracted prior to the current iteration of the public spending code. Many difficulties arose in the construction, not least with the combined heating power plant in the basement. It is a heritage building and protected structure, which always complicates things. There are pipes going under the combined heating power unit and under the basement. They discovered a river or watercourse of some sort there, which delayed the works and led to extra costs. The contractor put in a claim for additional costs relating in a large degree to that. Mr. Falvey can talk to the detail. It went to conciliation, which concluded in 2021. We did not accept the conciliator’s recommendation for what the contractor should get. The contractor then activated an arbitration clause. All of this was provided for in the contract. Early in 2022, the contractor approached us with a view to settling this rather than going to arbitration. We settled and the matter is concluded.

Mr. Conor Falvey

On the final figure, €6.9 million excluding VAT was the settlement negotiated on professional advice following the negotiated process to avoid arbitration. The total cost of the project including VAT was €39.73 million.

What was the original planned cost when the project started?

Mr. Conor Falvey

The envelope set out originally was €31.5 million.

Sorry, what was the figure at the start? What was the projected cost when the project started.

Mr. Conor Falvey

It was exceeded. Going back to the point the Secretary General raised, the project is the opening up of the gallery------

We have the end figure. What was the start figure?

Mr. Conor Falvey

Sorry, €31.5 million was provided in the original envelope. The contract price originally was €25.8 million excluding VAT. The final figure I gave includes VAT.

We went from €25.8 million up to-----

Mr. Conor Falvey

Excluding VAT. The total figure including VAT was €39.7 million.

If VAT was included in the original quote, we are talking about-----

Mr. Conor Falvey

There was an original envelope of €31.5 million for the project.

I fully understand that there are always hiccups when dealing with older buildings. Are we running into major difficulties with any ongoing projects in the same way?

Mr. Conor Falvey

No, but the way we manage projects now is quite different. Part of that was the experience of the gallery which showed us the opportunities that would present in the national cultural institutions but also the potential risks. We have an elaborate process under the public spending code managed by the OPW and ourselves at a programme level and then on a project-by-project basis with the institution, the OPW and the Department. That has a preliminary business case, identifies options and potential costs and makes cautious provision for inflation and contingency so that when the political system is making decisions about resourcing these projects, it is aware of------

A problem the Department has had in the past 12 months is the large increase in the cost of building. Will the projects in mind now be delayed as a result of that increase?

Mr. Conor Falvey

There has been no delay to date. We are moving the projects through the appraisal phases. These are once-in-many-generations interventions in the cultural institutions, so we are consulting closely with the institutions on their needs. We have been receiving approvals to move them through the various phases. The project relating to the Crawford Art Gallery will go to tender in October. We spoke about the archives earlier. There has been Government approval in principle of the preliminary business case for the National Concert Hall. There is no doubt that when we get to the tender stage of these projects, there will be a conversation with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform around resourcing of them.

Ms Katherine Licken

There has been considerable construction price inflation over the past number of years. We have a strategic policy unit which does a sector-specific methodology for us in order to comply with the spending code. We build in the contingency and forecast inflation in order that we give as accurate a cost as possible to the Government when it is making decisions on funding.

In building in the contingencies, part of the regime is to go in. For example, in the National Library, the west wing has been decanted of all the collections and it is now empty. There are holes in the wall where the OPW or the contractors have gone in to look at the fabric of the building and see if there are issues which will arise before ever going to tender that we need to know about. Whether we could have ever known about the watercourse under the gallery, I do not know, but in the library you can see the evidence of us putting time and money in before going to tender to understand what the fabric problems might be, as opposed to saying “Here’s a lovely new project. We’ll go to tender for it.”

Where is the Department with the project relating to the Crawford Art Gallery?

Mr. Conor Falvey

That has received planning approval from Cork City Council and is scheduled to go to tender in quarter 4 of this year.

It will be before the end of this year.

Mr. Conor Falvey

Before the end of the year, yes.

What is the timescale for the delivery of the project?

Mr. Conor Falvey

I will have to check the precise timeline. The tender process will take six months. We hope to have contractors on site in 2024. I would have to get the timeline for the Deputy.

It would be helpful to get that.

Mr. Conor Falvey

If I have it here with me, I will give it to the Deputy before we finish.

Overall, in relation to the projects the Department has for arts, are the witnesses satisfied we are doing enough work in that area? We have many facilities in which no major work has occurred for many years. Are there other projects whose delivery the Department can prioritise at this stage? We have come through ten years in which little work was done because of lack of funding. Are there certain things we can forward-plan for the next three to four years?

Ms Katherine Licken

We had a programme of investment in cultural infrastructure going back to the early 2000s, the ACCESS II programme, where we did major infrastructural investment in cultural centres around the country. We have focused since then on maintenance and upkeep of those. Some are not complete but most of them are. There have been a few completed only recently. Sometimes they take time and encounter difficulties. Our focus now is on capital to help them upgrade, for example, for climate purposes, or to maintain them in the order they are in.

We do not currently have a big investment programme, for example, in new cultural centres. A lot of our focus in on the cultural institutions at the moment because, as Mr. Falvey said, it is a once-in-a-generational infrastructure investment programme that we are embarking on. That should see the likes of what was done in the gallery - hopefully, without the cost overruns - replicated right across this infrastructure, including the library, the museum and the archives.

Mr. Conor Falvey

The Deputy will be aware that the Royal Irish Academy of Music was refurbished and opened recently. A significant grant was awarded, probably three or four years ago, to Foynes Flying Boat & Maritime Museum, which will open in the autumn, and the Esker Arts Centre, Tullamore, has been opened by the President. There are interventions on an ongoing basis. We are in contact with the local government system and the arts sector on an ongoing basis and receive feedback. As the Secretary General has highlighted, a new scheme was launched last week on climate adaptation, disability access and artist spaces. The Minister is making an announcement on artist spaces in Dublin today, possibly right now. We are constantly engaging with stakeholders in relation to needs and trying to respond and tailor the supports to the needs that are identified. We will continue to do that.

There will be a second round, if the Deputy wants to come back in again. I have some questions myself. I want to start with RTÉ. There were performance commitments that were linked to the revised strategy for 2024 that was presented to the Government four years ago to address some of the sustainability issues that RTÉ faces. There were six different commitments. Looking at them, RTÉ has stated that it did not achieve 12 out of the 32 the target measures at all, amounting to a failure rate of almost 38%. Nine other target measures were largely achieved, but not fully achieved, which means that it did not meet 59% of targets that it had set itself at the time. That is the context that I am asking these questions in. In relation to the funding of RTÉ, the committee has held a number of hearings with the organisation because there is a voted expenditure from the Oireachtas as well. How does the Department monitor RTÉ's performance commitments that are linked to the 2024 strategy that was presented to Government back then? How is that done? I ask the witnesses to keep it brief.

Ms Katherine Licken

The governance of RTÉ is multilayered. Coimisiún na Meán, which was previously the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, has a role, particularly in relation to agreeing the key performance indicators, KPIs, or performance commitments, and monitoring them. The data the committee are getting comes from the Coimisiún na Meán report on RTÉ's key performance indicators, KPIs. Perhaps Ms Quill wants to come in there.

Ms Tríona Quill

It is important, in relation to broadcasting, to safeguard the independence of public service broadcasting services. There is an independent regulator, formerly the BAI, now Coimisiún na Meán. It is provided for in legislation that it has the role in overseeing those performance commitments, reviewing them and reporting on them to the Minister on an annual basis. It is Coimisiún na Meán, rather than the Department that discusses the commitments that are set by RTÉ on an annual basis, then receives and reviews performance and produces a report on them that is submitted to the Minister. The Minister subsequently publishes that report, and also publishes a response to Coimisiún na Meán.

I would absolutely discredit that, considering that RTÉ only achieved 40% of the targets. What controls, if any, did the Department put in place in case RTÉ failed to meet those commitments?

Ms Tríona Quill

Again, the Department does not-----

It is Coimisiún na Meán that deals with that?

Ms Tríona Quill

It is Coimisiún na Meán. It comments on them, it works with RTÉ in relation to them and points out improvements that could be made. It is an ongoing iterative process that Coimisiún na Meán engages in with RTÉ in relation to matters of that kind.

Does the media and broadcasting division within the Department engage with RTÉ around performance and budget monitoring?

Ms Tríona Quill

As part of the governance arrangements with RTÉ, there are quarterly policy and governance meetings with RTÉ. Annual performance commitments would not be discussed, given that is the role of Coimisiún na Meán, but the Department would make sure that the commitments were being undertaken by RTÉ and would report, for example, that RTÉ had submitted the commitments to Coimisiún na Meán for review and so on.

I do not want names, but who is Coimisiún na Meán? Is the commission attached to the Department or internal within the Department?

Ms Tríona Quill

No, it is independent. It was formerly the BAI. There is now a broader regulator in place that has subsumed the broadcasting functions.

In relation to the licence fee, a Supplementary Estimate was sought back in 2022. According to the figures I have here, it was in the region of €15 million, as I understand it. That was granted at the time. RTÉ has operated at a loss in five of the last six years. Income is down in the region of €100 million over a six-year period and costs are up €30 million in the same period. We know that land was sold out at Donnybrook. Borrowing almost hit the ceiling and as I understand it there is a statutory limit, which Ms Quill might confirm, of €100 million. I believe RTÉ is very close to that, at around €95 million. The organisation has run at a deficit in five of the last six years, income is down around €100 million, costs are up €30 million and land was sold, which is fair enough. I hope there was a good business case for that. Borrowing is at €95 million, up against the limit, and a Supplementary Estimate of €15 million had to be provided last later. There is a new Director General in place, Mr. Bakhurst, and I wish him well in the job. I am a big supporter of State broadcasting. Perhaps the representatives of RTÉ might not have thought that when they appeared before the committee but it is most important that we have objective reporting, news and current affairs. Some great work is being done, particularly by "Prime Time". The programme has highlighted very important issues in this country. I wish Mr. Bakhurst well in his job. Looking at the figures that I referenced and the balance sheet, if I was on the board of RTÉ I would be seriously concerned. The picture of the finances and the drift in RTÉ is not a pretty one. How big a priority is getting a handle on this for the Secretary General of the Department?

Ms Katherine Licken

The Chair is right in pointing out the importance of public sector media. We are in a very changing and dynamic media landscape all around, and not just in public service media. Commercial media and social media have changed the landscape considerably. It is for that very reason that the Government established the Future of Media Commission, which made 50 recommendations on the future of media in Ireland. Ms Quill can speak to that in more detail. That included a recommendation for Exchequer funding for RTÉ. Recognising the merit good that public service broadcasting is, the Government was not comfortable with that recommendation. There was another recommendation that in the interim, additional funding of €15 million should be provided, and the Government did accept that. That is why the Supplementary Estimate was introduced to provide RTÉ with that funding.

Will there be a Supplementary Estimate this year? Has one not been sought?

Ms Katherine Licken

We do not have one planned at this juncture, but obviously, the funding-----

Given the figures that indicate that RTÉ is running at a loss, the fact there was a Supplementary Estimate last year and there has been no increase in the licence fee, is one expected?

Ms Katherine Licken

Consideration of any future funding of RTÉ in terms of direct Exchequer funding, pending resolution of the licence fee issue, would be a matter for the Estimates process.

On the 50 recommendations of the Future of Media Commission, I understand that changes to the licence fee and the methods of collection were central to the recommendations. Has that proposal been shelved?

Ms Katherine Licken

No. What the Government decided was to establish a technical group - I will ask Ms Quill to speak to this now - to look at how we can reform the existing system.

That group has concluded its deliberations with the Minister and discussions are ongoing as to what the next steps are.

This has been looked at a number of times over the years.

Ms Katherine Licken

It has.

This has been going around for as long as I have been here and I am sure the generation before me looked at it as well. I know this is a policy matter and I do not want to go there but from an official point of view and from the point of view of Ms Licken's work with the Department, is the plan to deal with this issue this year? Is the Department working to or has it been asked to work to that plan?

Ms Tríona Quill

The technical working group completed its work so those recommendations have been submitted to the Minister. It is over to the Government then at that stage in relation to the long term-plan.

Of course; I understand that.

Ms Tríona Quill

It is also-----

Is the Department working on the basis that it is a now-or-never thing and that it will happen this year?

Ms Tríona Quill

It depends.

Ms Katherine Licken

We never say now or never.

Ms Tríona Quill

Yes.

Ms Katherine Licken

We are always pushing to progress.

Ms Tríona Quill

I draw the Chair's attention to the fact that the Future of Media Commission also recommended interim funding for RTÉ this year of €16 million.

Ms Tríona Quill

It was €16 million.

The gap is being funded by direct subvention at the moment. Last year, we had a Supplementary Estimate. Does Ms Licken have concerns about the situation I outlined in which RTÉ has run a deficit in five of the last six years? The organisation's income is down by in the region of €100 million over a six-year period, costs have gone up by approximately €30 million, the family silver - valuable pieces of land at Donnybrook - has been sold and borrowings stand at €95 million. As Secretary General, does Ms Licken have concerns about that?

Ms Katherine Licken

Of course we would have concerns for the funding of public broadcasting more broadly and the viability of public service broadcasting more broadly. We get monthly financial accounts and monitor RTÉ's finances very carefully. We cannot get involved in day-to-day operational matters for good reason because RTÉ obviously has to remain independent, and that is set out in statute. We do get monthly financial management accounts from RTÉ. We have NewERA, which analyses and advises on those accounts for us on a monthly basis. We monitor it very closely.

My concern is that between the Department, Coimisiún na Meán and the board of RTÉ things could move and everybody is responsible but no one is responsible. I am not saying that is the base but Ms Licken will know herself the way it works with different organisations when more people are responsible. That is not an argument against it and I understand why they are there. Obviously, the key Department here is the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. Ms Licken is the Accounting Officer and oversees the annual Vote and the allocation of the licence fee. Is there monthly monitoring by the team in the Department? That is what I am trying to find out.

I will ask a final question on the licence fee. Ms Quill may have the exact figure. Last year, what was the figure paid by the Department of Social Protection towards the licence fee for households that are entitled to a free television licence?

Ms Tríona Quill

It was €69.8 million.

The total figure for the licence fee was €194 million. Is that correct?

Ms Tríona Quill

It was €151 million in terms of licence fee sales.

Yes, €151 million.

Ms Tríona Quill

An Post got €10 million of that for collecting the licence fee so the net revenue figure was €141 million. The Government's contribution in respect of free TV licences was €69.8 million.

That adds up to just over €200 million.

Ms Tríona Quill

Exactly.

There is then the €15 million figure.

Ms Tríona Quill

Just to mention that apart from what goes to An Post, some of that money also goes to the broadcasting fund for the sound and vision and archiving schemes. As such, €196 million went to RTÉ in respect of the licence fee.

As the Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts, the particular reason I have for raising this matter is that the overall picture looks very shaky and needs correction.

Good afternoon to our guests. I will continue on the issue of RTÉ but with a focus on the bogus self-employment that was not only rife in RTÉ but, unfortunately, in many other areas across the State. We know that in 2018, RTÉ commissioned an independent review of the employment status of 433 contractors at the station to determine whether they had been misclassified as self-employed. We know the report by Eversheds Sutherland found that 106 contracts had attributes akin to employment, following which 81 of the contractors identified were eventually offered full-time contracts with RTÉ. I believe 79 of the affected workers accepted that offer. We know a tax settlement was made with the Revenue Commissioners to the tune of €1.22 million following a review by that office. Recently, an offer was made to and accepted by 61 staff to address their unfair treatment by RTÉ. Different sums were paid out to some of those staff and some of them sent a letter to the Minister expressing concerns about the pressure they felt they were under to accept the deal that was put before them. I want to ask about an audit being undertaken by the Department of Social Protection regarding the misclassification of the contractors employed by RTÉ. Are the witnesses able to provide an update on that audit?

Ms Tríona Quill

I thank the Deputy. The Department of Social Protection began its audit in September 2020 and it was, in fact, broader than the original Eversheds review. It has been reviewing RTÉ's engagement of 500 individuals. The Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection made some public statements on that confirming those numbers. That Department is undertaking a very detailed examination and it is progressing. It is not a quick review and it will take another considerable period before that review is concluded. That is where we are now. We get updates from time to time from RTÉ through the Government processes that are in place but it is really only when the entire review is complete that the full details will be in place.

The review commenced in September 2020 and I know it is a comprehensive piece of work. Do we have any indication how long it may last?

Ms Tríona Quill

I beg the Deputy's pardon.

Do we have any indication how long that piece of work will last?

Ms Tríona Quill

We do not have any indication at this stage. There is a considerable amount of work still to do it so it will not be in the near future.

Ms Quill said the Department is briefed regularly. Is there an overview process in the Department regarding that piece of work?

Ms Tríona Quill

It is primarily being dealt with by the Department of Social Protection which is the expert in this area. It is driving the process and we are letting it get on with the work in that regard. We are not involved in the detail of it. It is more about making sure there is ongoing engagement.

Okay. At this point, is there any indication that any payments have been made to the Department of Social Protection on foot of the work carried out since 2020?

Ms Tríona Quill

I do not have that information.

On the bill that has been paid, as we already know, a tax settlement of €1.2 million has been made with Revenue. I imagine that there may well be a substantial bill for the Department of Social Protection arising from this. Who is ultimately going to foot that bill? Is it RTÉ or has the Department been asked to foot it?

Ms Tríona Quill

The Department has not been asked. It is RTÉ that will be paying that bill.

My colleague, Deputy Imelda Munster, at a previous hearing of this committee described RTÉ's behaviour as that of a rogue employer, given what was endemic within the organisation in terms of the classification of workers and the impact of bogus self-employment on workers' rights and entitlements. Will any individual be held responsible for that? Is there not an onus on the Department to hold an individual or individuals responsible for that?

Ms Katherine Licken

That is a matter for the board of RTÉ in the first instance. The separation of powers is very important there, in terms of RTÉ being independent. It is set out in statute that the organisation is independent in the pursuit of its objectives. That is important because it is public service media and public service media influences everything and is a key pillar of democracy. Therefore, that is a matter for the board in the first instance.

Eversheds recognised that RTÉ has a requirement to keep content fresh and audiences engaged and, therefore, it requires the use of freelancers and contractors to supplement the staff for short peak periods. It is not a typical organisation in that respect and that is partly why this issue arose.

Ms Tríona Quill

It is also worth mentioning that since the Eversheds report, RTÉ has put a new policy in place, an employment first policy, which is very welcome.

Yes, that has to be welcomed but the outstanding issues need to be resolved. Concerns were expressed in relation to pension payments for those who were identified. Has the issue regarding pension payments been resolved?

Ms Katherine Licken

As I understand it, the classification impacts the pension payments so that is part of the consideration.

I have already referenced a letter from some of those workers to the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, outlining their concerns about the pressure they felt they were under to accept the financial compensation deal that was put to them. Payments were offered in the range of €5,000 to €17,500, depending on the length of service. Workers felt that they were under pressure to accept those payments. Did the Minister respond to that communication?

Ms Tríona Quill

The Minister did respond in October 2022. She referred to the independence of RTÉ in this regard and in relation to operational activities generally. She drew attention to the fact that her intervention in this process, as Minister, would not be appropriate. She also said that the Department was aware that RTÉ is committed to working with the RTÉ trade union group to achieve a fair outcome. That was in October 2022.

She just restated the independence of RTÉ but there was no engagement with the board of RTÉ. Is that correct?

Ms Tríona Quill

It is a matter for RTÉ and the board of RTÉ in the first instance.

Has the Department had any engagement with freelancers or contractors within RTÉ who feel they were misclassified as contractors prior to the Revenue and Department of Social Protection audits commencing? Has there been any direct communication between the Department and any of those people?

Ms Katherine Licken

The audit that the Department of Social Protection is undertaking with RTÉ goes beyond those people identified for the Revenue settlement so it goes without saying that it is not for us to engage with them. They are engaging with RTÉ and the reason the process is taking so long is the Department of Social Protection is engaging with each individual as well as with RTÉ. It takes a lot of time to get it right.

I want to discuss the issue of the National Archives. I must declare a real interest in this area. I was a special rapporteur for a project undertaken by one of the committees some years ago about maximising our cultural and genealogical heritage. We published a report on that in 2015 and one of the things that stuck out for me was the affinity that was felt, particularly by the diaspora, for accessing records and seeing a physical connection. Records are a public good. The website the Department runs, www.geneaology.ie, is one that I use and it is very good. The more records that can be added to that, the better.

In terms of the building project, I recall visiting the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland when it was on the Lisburn Road to do some research. It comprised a few prefabs and was pretty awful. Before they moved to their fantastic new purpose-built offices in the Titanic Quarter, the staff did a huge amount of work digitising the records because there would not be access to the facility. Are we looking at the same kind of thing happening here? One of the things about the National Archives that is pretty unique is that it can be a remote offering. It is wonderful to go into the reading room of the National Library but the National Archives have a very broad reach, particularly with digitisation. Is there a scaled up programme of digitisation planned in the context of the rebuild?

Ms Katherine Licken

I thank Deputy Murphy for her question. I will ask my colleague, Mr. Falvey, to respond because he is over the detail of the National Archives. What I would say is that digitisation has been the big success story in the context of the archives, particularly on the census. It is one of our most popular websites. The National Archives are not the only body to do this. The National Library has also digitised and published records, not census records, but birth, death and marriage records.

This is a very exciting project. The Beyond 2022 project is a collaboration with the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland and through that we have discovered replications of records going back 700 years that were destroyed in the Four Courts. The National Archives found that the records were actually replicated in London and they also found records across the world, which is enhancing the collaboration. I will ask Mr. Falvey to respond on the digitisation in the National Archives more generally.

Mr. Conor Falvey

The digitalisation of the collections in the institution is critical. As the committee knows, there is a big programme of capital investment in the cultural institutions but there was also a provision under the national development plan, NDP, for digitalisation and we have been making resources available to each of the institutions to support the digitalisation of their collections.

More particularly, in terms of the National Archives, while there is a lot of interest, the greatest interest is around census information. There is a plan in place and being implemented in the National Archives for the digitalisation of the 1926 census. That process has commenced already. Obviously, we are bound by the 100-year rule there. They are not our records. They belong to somebody else.

They are very precious about that rule.

Mr. Conor Falvey

Yes, they are very precious about it. We did a little digitisation of indices previously and that was subject to commentary by the Data Protection Commissioner, DPC. Obviously, we have to be very careful about that.

Outside of that, the National Archives are also involved in the national centre for research and remembrance project relating to mother and baby homes. There will be a huge digitalisation aspect to that. That project is ongoing under the auspices of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

More broadly, there has been a big step up in public engagement. There has been a lot of digitalisation activity in the National Archives relating to the decade of centenaries. That period was covered in the treaty exhibition, for example, which had an online presence but was also a touring exhibition that went to libraries around the country.

There is almost limitless potential for the digitalisation of collections in the National Archives. It is a task that will lie ahead of us for some time to come.

I appreciate that. In fact, there are other financial benefits in terms of the cost of storage. We will always have the cost of storage, but there is the cost of retrieval. People will sometimes want to see the original, but I think accessing it in digital format can reduce retrieval costs.

Mr. Conor Falvey

Absolutely. There is a research piece for academics and things of that nature, and sometimes people will want to see the original. In terms of public engagement, however, the vast majority of public access into the future will be via digital rather than-----

Yes, and there was at one point a programme in which I think Trinity College was involved. Is that still happening?

Ms Katherine Licken

That project is a collaboration between Trinity College, the National Archives of Ireland and the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland, PRONI.

Does that extend to the National Archives in Kew? There are quite a lot of Irish records there. The Dublin Castle records are a case in point. I have looked at some of those.

Ms Katherine Licken

That is what I was saying, that when the Four Courts was burned somebody went and meticulously picked up bits of manuscripts that were charred and stored them. What they discovered when they embarked on this project was that the UK had kept copies of an awful lot of the records, so all was not lost, actually, and they are being retrieved. I do not have the figures. I might get Deputy the figures as to what has been retrieved in that project in terms of 700 years of records that we thought were lost.

As regards some of the material that is stored in the UK, I went through a lot of the boxes myself. I have gone on a couple of research missions to the archives in Kew and I was surprised by some of the stuff that I thought was quite low-level and that really should reside here. Is there any prospect of repatriation if we have an archive that is fit for purpose and can safely store additional material?

Ms Katherine Licken

I do not know that we have any discussions about that. Does Mr. Falvey want to come in on that?

Mr. Conor Falvey

Interestingly, the Minister launched the day before yesterday, I think, a proposal for a new expert advisory group here on repatriation and restitution, but that relates to items in Irish collections. There are very good relations building on the Beyond 2022 project between PRONI, Kew and the National Archives in Dublin. They have slightly different models of the way they disseminate the information, but there would be a lot of information even relating to people who may have had ancestors in the British army - for example, in the First World War - or previous records that would be of interest to people in Ireland. We tend to work on an institution-to-institution basis between the archival community more so than leaning in a different way. That tends to work. There is a process of engagement there around the collections but, as I said, there is no specific proposal at present for items to transfer.

I am aware of the good relationship between Kew and the National Archives here.

May I go back to a point Deputy Colm Burke made? He made a point about Glanmire and a particular location. It was more a general point. One thing I would like to stress is that when new communities are built it is difficult enough to get housing built, but building a community is another task. Very often those communities are disadvantaged by virtue of the fact that they do not have that community development piece that has to happen in the future, but their needs are more immediate than that. I think of west Dublin communities like Ongar and Tyrrelstown, which did not really exist to any degree in, say, the year 2000 but are quite sizeable communities now. They take several years to build. Static communities appear to be at a sizeable advantage in applying for grants over new communities that still have to have that engagement with one another as regards community development and so on. Is that factored into the ability to apply for and to partner for additional facilities? It is very difficult to see how it can be.

Ms Katherine Licken

As Mr. Ó Lionáin alluded to earlier, Sport Ireland is looking at developing a paper as to what the infrastructure gaps are across the country. That will then provide us with an opportunity to liaise with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Rural and Community Development as to what the trends are going forward in terms of population growth and build-out in areas that would help in turn inform any new rounds of grant funding. Certainly, the review of the last sports capital, as I said earlier, has recommended we take account of population growth, so that is certainly something we are looking at. Mr. Ó Lionáin may correct me on this, but for the previous round of sports capital we took the Pobal deprivation index as a measure to see if we could account for disadvantage in communities and providing facilities, and not just if the facility might be based in an area of affluence but might be serving a community beyond that area that is not so affluent or is disadvantaged. I do not know if Mr. Ó Lionáin wants to elaborate on that. I think the Deputy's points are very well made.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The Secretary General has captured it very well. I reiterate that, by happy coincidence, next week the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, will meet the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. While we do have good relations on individual applications with individual local authorities, I think both Departments recognise that there is a lot more that could be done in terms of the much more strategic planning, as was said, in rolling out Housing for All, developing new communities and how sport and recreational infrastructure can be plugged in at the start rather than being retrofitted. That would certainly be one of the topics of conversation to try to make better progress on that.

I will make just one other point on that. There is a national strategy as to how development should happen: consolidation at city level, then suburban level and, less favoured, outer-suburban level. However, that is not what is happening; in fact, it is the reverse of what is happening. If you look at trends over the past 20 years, you can see that the overall population has grown but, in fact, Dublin city in 1996 accounted for 13% of the population, while today it accounts for little over 11%. However, if you start looking at where the growth has happened, it is really an arc around Fingal, Meath, Kildare and part of south Dublin. The same profile is happening around Cork. There is a mismatch. There is probably capacity in areas that are not growing substantially, like the city centres in terms of facilities, but then there is a duplication of need in suburban and outer-suburban areas. We therefore have to question if the ideal in terms of the consolidation of a more sustainable type of development is actually happening and, if not, how do we provide the services for the areas in which people are actually living? I do not think the numbers lie as to where people are.

Ms Katherine Licken

It is also a point from a cultural perspective. We are very minded as well of the cultural element. We remind the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage regularly that in new build of new communities, cultural infrastructure is also hugely important.

I was reminded by my colleague to remind the Deputy of our placenames branch, which looks at the placenames of Ireland and the historic origins of all placenames in Ireland. We have the Dúchas Project, which is the digitisation of the folklore collection, a great collection going back to the 1930s. Also, the Crowley bequest fund is a fund administered by the National Archives of Ireland. It was a bequest from Professor Francis Crowley and involves listing microfilms and publishing of the registered papers of the Chief Secretary's Office for the period 1818 to 1852. That might also be of interest.

May I go back to the funding for sports? There was €165 million allocated for that by the Department in 2021, but the budget was €140 million, so there is a significant increase of €25 million. What accounted for that or what was happening there? I am thinking of 2021, during which a lot of the sports operations were not under way because of Covid and all that. What did that extra €25 million relate to?

Ms Katherine Licken

A lot of it was precisely because of Covid. If you think about the governing bodies in all the sports, they had no spectators, no games, no sponsorship.

So it was funding to various facilities.

Ms Katherine Licken

We had ranges of programmes administered by Sport Ireland to support all the organisations.

I just want to get an account of the figure.

Ms Katherine Licken

I do not know if that is the full accounting.

That is okay. I accept that. If I could dwell on the FAI for a moment, it made a recent submission on funding from the horse and greyhound racing fund. What level of engagement does the Department have with the FAI in regard to its submission for funding from that fund?

Ms Katherine Licken

I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin to speak on that. That was a report that it published last year, and it published it again this year.

It made a submission on it.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The recent strategy document by the FAI, which estimates a capital investment need of more than €800 million over 15 years, is not specifically looking for it from one source or another. In referring to the horse and greyhound racing fund, it points to the benefits that can be achieved by long-term sustained investment in a sector. It points to how the horse and greyhound industry has grown up over 20 years. The FAI makes the argument that a sustained commitment to long-term capital funding in sport can achieve the same for other sports. It did commission a specific piece of analysis more than a year ago on the fund, but while they are parallel, they are not strictly intertwined in terms of what the current strategy is. In terms of that strategy, we would welcome all sports projecting out and seeing what their strategic needs are. At least it shows that the FAI as an organisation is planning strategically for the future, which is positive.

To follow on with the FAI, as I understand it, there was a loss in 2019 of €5.1 million. Is Mr. Ó Lionáin aware of whether there were losses in each of the subsequent years and in the past three years as well? Was there an operational loss?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I think this was covered in some detail at last week's appearance by Sport Ireland, which does the oversight of the memorandum of understanding. It points to a steadily improving balance sheet picture.

The question is whether there were losses over the past three years.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

No, the FAI was trading initially at breakeven, with funding from the Government. It is steadily reducing its debt as well. The debt on the balance sheet was €60 million a year and a half ago, and that is coming down steadily.

If the funding from the Government was removed incrementally, would the FAI have been running at a loss for the past three years?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Perhaps in year one. The question now for Sport Ireland is that it is awaiting receipt of the 2022 accounts from the FAI. It will be drilling through those and giving a report to the Minister and the Department on the trading viability. We must bear in mind as well that the memorandum of understanding, MoU, with the FAI runs until the end of this year, so there is a decision point then for Ministers and the Government in terms of that and the relationship there.

As the assistant secretary in that section, is Mr. Ó Lionáin concerned about the losses?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

We are always concerned-----

I refer to the overall sustainability of the operation.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I am a lot more confident about the sustainability of the FAI now than we would have been a couple of years ago. The MoU sets out more than 160 measures for the FAI to take to get to a kind of best-in-class status. At the moment, it has implemented 93% of those. Sport Ireland continues to engage with it on the remaining few. It is important to acknowledge that it has made big progress.

What about the remaining 50 or 60 measures?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

No, it is the remaining 7%.

What is the total?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Of the 164 measures, I think 152 have been implemented, so we are talking about ten or 11.

So 152 measures have been implemented.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Yes.

Liabilities increased from around €58 million in 2019 to €70 million. Where do the liabilities stand now?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

If memory serves me, from last week's discussion, the current liability-----

What figure does the Department have?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

In the 2021 accounts it was €60 million. The 2022 accounts are due to come into Sport Ireland in the coming weeks. We are told that there will be another reduction in the overall liabilities.

So it is going in the right direction.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

It is trending correctly. Yes.

Is the Department actively talking to Sport Ireland and the FAI to ensure further measures are being put in place to try to reduce the liability? Is that active work by the Department?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Absolutely. As I said, Sport Ireland is the main agent for monitoring the MoU and it has regular meetings with the FAI. We then meet with Sport Ireland to get feedback on it.

I wish to focus on governance at the FAI. There have been reports of issues arising. It is widely accepted that things were not as they should have been. That is being charitable. Is the Department satisfied with the current governance arrangements in the FAI?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

On foot of the MoU, we have seen the introduction of six independent directors and six football directors, if you will. In our view that has been quite transformational because it has brought in external expertise to the board and it has ensured there is a proper mix of expertise at the board. We would certainly be of the view that, in the longer term, regardless of the MoU, there is a strong merit for maintaining a strong independent cohort on the board. To date, it seems to be working quite well.

I will turn to the debt on the Aviva Stadium, which is in the region of €28 million or €29 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

I will confirm that but it is in that order. It is serviced by both the FAI and the IRFU.

Is Mr. Ó Lionáin concerned about that level of debt on the stadium?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

No, it is manageable by both organisations. It is not unusual for a stadium of that size to have that kind of debt.

Does Mr. Ó Lionáin feel it is sustainable?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Yes, we do.

I will refer to what some call the bailout the FAI got, the €30 million rescue package. As I understand it, there was €30 million in loans and €20 million in non-refundable grants. Debts were restructured as well to stop the FAI from going into liquidation. Will Mr. Ó Lionáin outline to me the details of this package? Has the FAI started to pay back any of the €30 million loan?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The question of repayment only applies to a specific component of the overall package.

Is it correct that it is €30 million?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Some €7.5 million of it was three years of contributions for the ongoing costs of the Aviva Stadium. Under the MoU, the FAI from 2024 will start repaying the €7.5 million.

The answer to the question is that at this point it has not started.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Exactly. It is not due to start until 2024.

Next year it will start to pay back the public money that was put in.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

That is right, but only a portion of it.

Only €7.5 million.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Yes.

I thank Mr. Ó Lionáin for that answer. That completes the questions by the committee. I thank the witnesses and their staff from the Department. I also thank Mr. Nolan from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for the information and preparation of the briefing notes for today's meeting. I also thank Ms Drinan and Mr. McKeown from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for attending today and assisting the committee.

Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.

Ms Licken said she might possibly have information on funding for the Ryder Cup in Adare before the end of the week. I am just checking if that is the case.

Ms Katherine Licken

We do not have the detail of that in the Department. The negotiation between Adare Manor and Ryder Cup Europe is between them. It is commercially sensitive and it is a matter between them. I do not think we have those figures. What we do is invest in the tournament for the economic return to the region. That is our investment.

Could we just go back on that for a moment? Something in the region of €50 million in public funds is being put in for the Ryder Cup. There is an issue regarding the contribution from Adare Manor, from the facility itself, and Ms Licken is saying it is commercially sensitive.

There is no competitor at this point in the bid for who holds this. Is that correct?

Ms Katherine Licken

It is with Ireland.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The main benefit from the State's investment in the Ryder Cup will be the wider State in terms of visitor numbers.

I understand that. That is different.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

That is what drove our assessment of investing in this.

The issue is that at this point it is the sole bidder. It is the sole body involved. It is the sole facility, so I am trying to figure out where the commercial sensitivity is.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The commercial sensitivity is from the perspective of Ryder Cup Europe. It negotiates individually. For example, it has negotiated with the Olympic course outside Rome in respect of this year's Ryder Cup.

The taxpayer is ponying up €50 million. Is that correct?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

The taxpayer will not be paying a penny inside the ground and the course.

I understand that.

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

That is all private investment.

The facility is obviously going to benefit massively from this. It will be lifted to new heights. That is accepted, and it is okay. It is a commercial entity, so it is fine that happens. Of course, the State in general and the south-west region in particular will benefit hugely. The Committee of Public Accounts wants to know who else is making the funding contribution here. Is the taxpayer carrying the full burden? From the answers we are getting, it appears that the taxpayer is funding the whole lot. If that is not the case, can that be confirmed before we move on?

Ms Katherine Licken

We will come back to the committee with the exact structure. We will prepare a note about exactly how it is structured.

Can we get confirmation that Adare Manor is making a contribution? Is that a "Yes" or a "No"?

Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin

Our understanding is that every host course will be given a list of requirements by Ryder Cup Europe in the context of changes to the course and other things, which will require significant investment. We are not privy to that, because it is happening along the course.

Will the witnesses come back to the committee with a note on that?

Ms Katherine Licken

Yes.

Thank you. I would appreciate it if they could do that in the next week or fortnight.

Ms Katherine Licken

We will do.

I wanted to clear up that matter before this part of the meeting concluded. The clerk will seek any other follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is proposed to publish the opening statements and briefings provided to the committee. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank everybody for attending and for the information they provided. The meeting is suspended until 1.30 p.m., when the committee will resume in public session to address correspondence and any other business.

The witnesses withdrew.
Sitting suspended at 12.22 p.m. and resumed at 1.30 p.m.
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