The first item is the minutes of the meeting of 15 June, which have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters relating to the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee web page.
Six sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses between 12 and 16 June 2023. I will ask Ms Drinan to address these before opening the floor to Members.
The first set of accounts is Home Building Finance Ireland for the financial year end December 2022. There was a clear audit opinion. Its subsidiary Home Building Finance Ireland (Lending) DAC for the year end December 2022 also has a clear audit opinion. The Credit Institutions Resolution Fund for the year end December 2022 was given a clear audit opinion. Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board for December 2021 year end was given a clear audit opinion. Louth Meath Education and Training Board for December 2021 year end also has a clear audit opinion. The National College of Art and Design for the year end September 2021 had a clear audit opinion.
I thank Ms Drinan. That is a clean bill of health for the education sector. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.
We now move to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page.
The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is B, correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings. First, No. 1933B, from Mr. Graham Doyle, Secretary General, Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, dated 12 June, provides information requested by the committee arising from the meeting with the Department on 26 January. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. This relates to standardised designs and the cost of architects. We are starting from a blank canvas. The correspondence indicates there is some progress. There are 50 generic internal layout designs. That is welcome. The Department is seeing increased use of these in internal layouts. On the move to standardised design of houses, buildings or apartments overall, Mr. Doyle says they are increasing use of standardised designs internally. He says "the Department has recently concluded that consistency with the Design Manual and Employers Requirements should become mandatory for inclusion within briefing documents issued to Design Teams". That is welcome. We will ask Mr. Doyle to clarify for what percentage of social housing those internal designs are being used now. While welcoming the progress report, I propose we ask if there are developments towards moving towards standard design for the whole build, that is, external and internal. It is agreed, then, that we will request the information from Mr. Doyle and the Department.
No. 1938B, from the office of the Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, dated 16 June 2023, provides an update relating to Inland Fisheries Ireland's 2021 financial statements. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. The reply from the Department said Inland Fisheries Ireland's accounts are with the Minister, Deputy Ryan, for approval. Once approved they will go to the Government. The date of 6 July is noted and the accounts will be laid before that date. The accounts will be before the Cabinet next week, on Tuesday, and laid thereafter. That should comply with the timeline we seek. It is agreed to note and publish that item.
The next group is C - correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. 1931C, dated 12 June 2023, is from Deputy Verona Murphy relating to the role and work of the Committee of Public Accounts the in examining capital expenditure. The Deputy has asked that we defer consideration of this correspondence to next week because of her absence. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Next is No. 1942C from the clerk to the committee on remit oversight, dated 19 June, in response to our application to extend our committee's remit to facilitate the examination of public funds by Uisce Éireann. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I propose that we discuss this letter in private session, as we have to make some minor amendments to it. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Next is No. 1944C from me, dated 20 June. It is a proposal that the committee write to the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, NPHDB, and the Secretary General of the Department of Health seeking clarification around the remedial works required on the 11 operating theatres, when they became aware of the issue, the estimated cost, and whether it will delay the project. There was further correspondence on the matter this morning. It is dated 21 June. The letter states: "The NPHDB commenced a due diligence process in association with STS (adviser to Children's Health Ireland) and the Design Team in 2018" and goes on in that vein. It also states: "BAM is instructed to review what would be the impact of moving the grilles in each of the 11 Theatres, this is ongoing." With the support of the committee, I propose that we look for the outcome of that review. We might also ask what the cost is. The letter states: "To date none of the operating theatres have been offered by BAM as complete for inspection by the Design team or commissioning. There is significant work to be completed in these rooms." Later, it states: "The cost implication will be determined as part of this process". I suggest that, when the figure is determined, we be notified of the cost of the alterations to the 11 theatres and we ask the board why this matter was not acted on in May 2022 when it was first discovered. Those are my four questions. If the committee is agreeable, we will look for that information from the Department and the board.
Deputy Hourigan mentioned something to me. It appears that I raised this issue on 5 October 2022 when the Department and the board were before the Joint Committee on Health. I asked a specific question about theatres because I was on the board of a hospital where we ran into problems with a theatre being completed. Reading the debate of that committee meeting is interesting, as the answer given was that there were no problems in that respect at that time.
I thank the Deputy for that information. With his permission, we will note in our letter that the question was asked by a committee member at that point.
I will quote what I asked them: "At what stage is the development of the 22 operating theatres?" Mr. Phelim Devine replied:
The theatres are all constructed. All of the walls have been double-sided and nearly all the services are in, including the lead lining. The ceilings within the theatres are being finished and the pendant supports are all in. The next phase will be to install the pendants. The flooring will go in, which is a very special epoxy floor. We have put in the ICT boxes for the audiovisual screens, which will be put in at a future date by Children's Health Ireland. The theatres are very well advanced.
Did the Deputy reference the ventilation system specifically?
No, but the Chair might read the reply to the questions I asked. I asked them because of a specific problem I had encountered on the board of the South Infirmary Victoria University Hospital, where there had been a delay of more than 12 months in getting a piece of equipment. That is why I was specific in my questions. I was not aware of the ventilation issue – it was not raised at the time – but there was certainly no indication given in the replies to our questioning that there was a problem.
In our letter, we will point out that no problems with the ventilation system were outlined in the reply to the Deputy, despite the fact that it appears that all of this was known in May 2022.
Is that letter to the NPHDB?
And the Secretary General of the Department of Health. That is the proposal.
I wish to raise a couple of points. We need to ask whether a specific report was done. During Leader's Questions on Tuesday this week, Deputy McDonald read into the Dáil record part of a report by an independent expert appointed by Children's Health Ireland, which said of the recent issues:
These are not snagging lists but rather indicative of major generic faults and non-compliances. The longer that these issues take to get resolved, the more expensive and time consuming it will become.
The report made other points.
We should specifically ask the Department and the board whether there is a report. From this correspondence, it looks like there is an ongoing due diligence process. Children's Health Ireland is the body that will run the hospital. All the systems have to be capable of doing what they are intended to do. I am concerned that problems appear to have been identified with these systems. In our letter, we should ask whether, if there is a report, we can have it or at least the segment of it that deals with this issue. It is important that we have a "Yay" or "Nay" on the question of whether the report exists. One cannot quote from something that does not exist, so let us presume it does.
There is a proposal relating to our work programme that, when these organisations are before us, this matter be included. They are due in fairly soon, according to our list. We can ask that specific question. The report might be a response from the consultants or it might be the outcome of an examination – it might not actually be called a "report" – but let us look for it. We need to be careful with our language. If we strictly ask whether there is a "report", we may get back a letter saying there is none, yet there may be an outcome of a review.
Exactly.
We need to broaden our wording to include a review or examination.
What I am trying to get at is where those quotes are coming from.
My understanding is that there is a review.
There may be the ongoing due diligence process that this letter refers to. There is a code that we all get used to. It is political speak and how particular organisations speak. We can see it in one of the pieces of correspondence we received from the NPHDB in May, which referred to an updated programme for substantial completion at the end of February 2023 in accordance with the public works contract. It appears that there might have been a completion programme but not a compliant completion programme.
Let us try to strip away the language and ask the specific question about whether a programme has been provided.
I brought this up with the Taoiseach this morning at the meeting of the Working Group of Committee Cathaoirligh that the Minister for Health, yesterday or the day before, stated there is not a compliant programme. He mentioned this as a breach of contract. That is what he said.
Absolutely. There is not a compliant programme, but is there a programme? They are using the phrase "a compliant programme". That is the point I am making. If there is a programme, one of the questions we need to ask is what about it that is not compliant and is likely to lead to slippage. The other issue I would like us to raise in our reply to them, because it has been something that has come up at the committee and we have all engaged in this, is that we have asked about the kind of sanctions that can be applied in terms of non-compliance. We can see in the most recent statement from the board that it has applied the 15% withholding. I would like to know when it applied that. Was it applied after the board had a meeting with us, for example? Was it applied after it did some due diligence or did it only apply it in recent days when this came back into the public domain? I would like to know the date it decided to do that and notified BAM about it. That would be useful to know.
Okay, we will ask those questions. There is a list of questions here to go to them. On the question about the body that commissioned the report, Children's Health Ireland, we could write to it and ask if there is a document and a response and maybe a response to the concerns the committee has been raising around this, in particular, the completion of the 11 theatres.
That is critically important. The board's advisers, STS are the people who are doing the work for it, and maybe we could attach what it is being advised by them.
Okay. We will seek that information from both bodies. That concludes our correspondence for this week. I will move on to our work programme.
At our meeting next week, we will engage with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board. On 6 July, we will engage with Inland Fisheries Ireland on its 2021 financial statements. On 13 July, we will engage with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on its 2021 appropriation accounts. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, has been flagged as an area of interest.
The committee has already agreed to hold meetings with Uisce Éireann and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board after the summer recess. I propose that we consider a draft schedule of meetings for the autumn at next week's meeting. If members have any suggestions, they should feel free to raise them now or send them to the secretariat ahead of next week's meeting.
If we could have Children's Health Ireland in when we have the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board in, it would be useful.
Regardless of whether we are bringing them in on the same day, I would ask the committee to agree that we would bring in the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board as soon as possible. We have Uisce Éireann prioritised, but maybe in the first two hearings we can get Uisce Éireann and, following that, the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. Whether we would bring Children's Health Ireland in on the same day or not-----
The hospital is being built for it to run.
We can ask it in. As normal, there will be an official present from the Department as well. We can include that. Does any member wish to raise any other matter regarding the work programme?
I presume we will have the accounts at that stage. The last set of accounts were for 2020.
We should have.
The Comptroller and Auditor General's priority is the finalisation of the 2021 financial statements. The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned at a previous meeting that there are a number of issues to be resolved. They are still being worked through but the Comptroller and Auditor General is obviously keenly aware of the need for the committee to have an updated set of accounts.
The 2022 accounts cannot be finalised if the 2021 accounts are not finalised. I presume the 2022 accounts are nearly there as well.
Certainly, the audit of the 2022 financial statements is ongoing, but the Deputy is right. Insofar as there are a few issues the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned around contractual commitments and value of claims, they need to get sorted for 2021 before the 2022 work on those specific issues can start but, in general, the work on the 2022 audit is under way.
Is there any way we can have the two sets of accounts at the same time? That would be too tight.
I do not think we can, but we would certainly hope that the 2022 accounts would be much more timely than the 2021 accounts.
We could have them in twice, maybe.
Is it likely the 2022 accounts will come in in September?
The 2021 accounts, as I said, is where the priority is at the moment - getting those finalised. The 2022 audit is under way, but obviously that needs to go through a clearance process within the organisations that-----
What is the timeline for that?
The 2020 accounts were certified in November 2021. If you were looking at a timeline, it would be the back end of this year at best case. Typically, we find that if there have been a lot of issues, some of them can carry into the following year, if the Cathaoirleach knows what I mean.
In relation to the 2021 accounts and the issues that are still outstanding, they will relate to some of the issues where there were claims, arbitration, etc. Is it that those kinds of issues straddle two years or is that Ms Drinan's understanding of the nature of what is still being finalised?
Basically, it is that there is still engagement ongoing to make sure the Comptroller and Auditor General is happy with what is being included within the accounts.
I presume claims could not be allowed to hold up the final book on the audit because claims could drag on for a number of years.
Exactly. It is the information that has been disclosed regarding what is there as opposed to the financial impact within 2021, but it is more around the information that has been disclosed about possible future claims, etc.
That concludes our consideration of the work programme for today. That last item on the public agenda is any other business, if any member wishes to raise any other matters. No. I propose we now move into private session briefly before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 29 June. Go raibh maith agaibh.
