COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 26 Oct 2023

Chapter 4: Accountability of the Central Funding of Local Authorities.

Mr. Graham Doyle (Secretary General, Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage) called and examined.

An Cathaoirleach

No apologies have been received. The witnesses are all very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses are reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of provisions of Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Irena Grzebieniak, deputy director at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This morning, we will engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and representatives of Uisce Éireann and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities to examine the Appropriation Accounts 2022 for Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage and, from the 2022 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services, chapter 3, cntral government funding of local authorities, and chapter 4, accountability of the central funding of local authorities. The following areas of interest have been flagged by committee members: the delivery of social housing by local authorities and the Department's funding and governance of Uisce Éireann.

We are joined by the following officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage: Mr. Graham Doyle, Secretary General; Ms Áine Stapleton, assistant secretary, social housing delivery division; Ms Caroline Timmons, assistant secretary, affordable housing division; Mr. Fintan Towey, assistant secretary, water division; Ms Fiona Quinn, assistant secretary, local government division; Mr. Paul Hogan, acting assistant secretary, planning division; and Ms Theresa Donohue, assistant principal, housing finance and co-ordination unit.

The Department was requested to include representatives of Uisce Éireann in the delegation. We are joined from Uisce Éireann by Mr. Niall Gleeson, chief executive officer, and Mr. Sean Laffey, director of asset management and sustainability. We are also joined from the Commission for Regulation of Utilities by Ms Aoife MacEvilly, commissioner; Ms Karen Kavanagh, director of networks and economic regulation; and Ms Priti Dave-Stack, revenue strategy and governance manager. The witnesses are all very welcome. I believe this is the first visit to the committee by representatives of Uisce Éireann.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The 2022 Appropriation Account for Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage records gross expenditure of €5.632 billion.

Appropriations-in-aid of the Vote amounted to €71.4 million. The surplus of the amount provided over the net amount applied in the year was €586.7 million. Of this, the Department received permission to carry over to 2023 €340 million related to unspent 2022 capital allocations. The remaining €246.7 million was liable for surrender back to the Exchequer.

The appropriation account is presented under six programme headings. The largest by value are the housing programme, water services programme and the programme to support local government, which together account for 95% of the gross expenditure under the Vote. The remaining three programmes relate to planning, including the funding of planning-related bodies, Met Éireann and heritage, including the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS.

I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the account. However, I drew attention to the Accounting Officer’s disclosure of certain instances of material non-compliance with procurement rules in respect of contracts that operated during 2022. I also drew attention to a note in the account about fines paid to the European Commission arising from a judgement of the European Court of Justice, ECJ, in November 2019. The case concerned the failure to ensure a retrospective environmental impact assessment was carried out in respect of a wind farm constructed in County Galway. Payments related to the fines totalled €17.2 million over the years 2020 to 2023 and ended when Ireland was considered to have complied with the terms of the judgment.

Local authorities receive a sizeable portion of their annual funding from various central government Departments and agencies. Each year, my office prepares a report to present an overview of the amount and purposes of the funding provided from central government sources to local authorities. In 2022, such funding totalled €6.04 billion, a net increase of approximately 5% on the €5.77 billion provided in 2021. The primary sources of central government funding for local authorities are the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage through Vote 34 and the Local Government Fund, LGF, and the Vote for transport. Approximately 92% of the €6.04 billion was provided from these sources in 2022. In 2022, €3.2 billion of central government funding was provided to local authorities for housing and regeneration. This included housing assistance payment, HAP, and rental accommodation scheme, RAS, payments. A further €1.4 billion was provided for transport investment. Three quarters of this was earmarked for road improvements, with the balance for public transport and active travel investments. Other local authority activities that receive regular funding are water and sanitary services investments, waste management and flood relief works.

Central government providers of funding to local authorities are required to ensure an effective funding supervision regime is in place that accords with the provisions of the directions of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Given the scale of the funding transfers and the experience of the Department of Rural and Community Development with grant funding provided to one local authority, I decided to examine how some other Departments oversee local authorities’ utilisation of programme funding they provide. One of the programmes reviewed, namely, the energy efficiency retrofitting programme to upgrade the energy efficiency of local authority housing stock, is funded by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The grant-funding Departments examined were found generally to have complied with the conditions set down by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

One significant departure from the standard model of public accountability for grant recipients is that local authorities, with the permission of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, are not required to disclose details of the grants they receive in their annual financial statements. Unlike most State bodies, local authorities are also not required to present a statement on their system of internal control, or a governance statement, with their annual financial statements, or to make standard remuneration disclosures. The Department has indicated that a planned new code of governance for local authorities will introduce new compliance requirements similar to those already in place for the rest of the public sector. The Accounting Officer will be able to update the committee on the current status of the new code.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. McCarthy. As outlined in the invitation, Mr. Doyle has five minutes for his opening statement.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am pleased to be here as Accounting Officer to assist the committee in the examination of the various matters outlined by the Cathaoirleach and Mr. McCarthy. The Cathaoirleach introduced my colleagues from the Department and the other attendees at the meeting. We look forward to addressing members' questions following on from previous attendances. I have provided advance briefing material for the meeting along with a copy of my opening statement, which briefly mentions some areas notified as being of interest to the committee.

At the outset, I will mention the scale and breadth of the activities of the Department, which now has ten divisions and deals with a number of priorities under the programme for Government. The focus and commitment of staff working in the Department, and indeed across more than 20 bodies under the aegis, together with local authority partners and a wide variety of stakeholders, is significant.

My Department continues to work proactively with key stakeholders in the social and affordable housing delivery space to create the conditions that facilitate increased housing supply across the country and, within that, the delivery of new social and affordable homes. In 2022, there was overall delivery of more than 29,000 new homes. In this context, more than 10,000 homes were added to the social housing stock. Almost 7,500 of these were new-build social homes and a further 1,800 were delivered mainly through new build leasing and other programmes as part of that, such as mortgage to rent or repair and leasing. The remaining 1,000 properties, approximately, were acquired by approved housing bodies, AHBs, and local authorities. Despite the impact of Covid, directly followed by the Russian invasion of Ukraine and its effect on supply chains, construction costs increases, energy price fluctuations and higher finance costs, the ability of stakeholders to adapt and respond helped to underpin the output.

In listening to the challenges faced by the sector in delivering new build projects in particular, initiatives to support delivery have been put in place. These include, for example, multi-annual national development plan, NDP, funding envelopes, a new land acquisition fund, staffing resources for local authorities and actions to address legacy debt linked to accelerated delivery using modern methods of construction. In addition, changes to the approvals processes and amendments to the planning Act for a temporary period to assist with acceleration of social and affordable housing schemes have had a positive effect. Last year, 2022, represented the first year of an ambitious programme of delivery of affordable homes, with more than 1,700 affordable purchase and cost rental homes made available. This momentum will continue as we build a pipeline of affordable housing with local authorities, AHBs and the Land Development Agency, LDA. An example with respect to local authority delivery of affordable homes is that more than 2,750 homes have been approved for in excess of €200 million in funding under the affordable housing fund, AHF, across 20 local authority areas. In addition, 1,400 cost-rental homes have been approved for more than €155 million in funding under the AHF. Affordable housing delivery is also being supported through the first home scheme, which was launched in July 2022 and has been successful, with 750 approvals in 2022 and a further 1,800 approvals in its most recent report. The Department will continue to work with local authorities, AHBs and the LDA on the range of affordable schemes to bring forward new projects. The Department has had to innovate to bring forward affordable solutions in recent years and is starting to see delivery across these new schemes, with our focus now being on implementation and ensuring the public is aware of these schemes.

On local authorities and oversight, at this session are also discussing two important chapters relating to local government. Central government funding of local authorities totalling more than €6 billion is provided through a wide range of Government Departments and agencies. This represents a 5% increase on the 2021 level despite the removal of special Covid-19-related funding of €440 million. The Local Government Fund, is a special central fund which was established under the Local Government Act 1998. The profile of income and expenditure of the local government fund has undergone significant changes in recent years. Income to the fund is now comprised of funding from the Exchequer and, since 2014, local property tax, LPT. The Government decides the expenditure from the LGF each year as part of the budgetary process. In addition to the LPT income, almost €388 million was provided to support local authority services in 2022. This funding recognises the integral role local authorities play in the delivery of services to citizens. Last month, local authorities were advised of a €75 million increase in LPT baseline funding for the coming year, with a minimum increase of €1.5 million for each authority as a result of the recent baseline review. This is a positive addition to the nearly 20% increase in LPT funding under local authorities' discretionary use brought about since 2021.

Statutorily based governance arrangements are in place at local government level. These range from the elected council in the primary oversight role and supported in the fulfilment of its reserved functions by the chief executive, internal audit functions and audit committees in each local authority. The Local Government Audit Service, LGAS, in turn performs the independent, external audit of local government, providing independent scrutiny of local authority finances and reporting to the elected council. The National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, established in 2014, provides independent oversight of the local government sector, scrutinising and monitoring local authority performance and promoting good practice.

Moving on to the topic of water, water services continue to undergo a significant period of reform in the delivery of services. The committee has specifically asked for representatives of Uisce Éireann to join us today. A framework for future delivery of water services was agreed in June 2022 and provides the basis for Uisce Éireann to work with local authorities to complete the integration of public water services. Local authorities will cease involvement in the direct provision of water services from December 2026.

The Government’s voted Exchequer investment in Uisce Éireann is substantial under the NDP. Over €1.4 billion was spent by Uisce Éireann in 2022 to service existing schemes and deliver new water infrastructure and investment. This investment in public water services is vital to maintain and enhance infrastructure, safeguard public health, ensure environmental compliance by adequately treating wastewater and support the delivery of housing and other economic activity.

Similar to other areas, 2022 saw additional operational expenditure demands in water services driven by exceptionally high levels of inflation, which were particularly acute across design, build and operate contracts. Capital projects also progressed at a slower pace due to the inflationary environment, along with increased delivery time lines and resource constraints. The sector experienced real challenges in procuring key resources and materials.

To conclude on water, I wish to mention the almost €63 million which was provided in 2022 to the rural water programme. Certainty for priority investment has been put in place through a multi-annual capital programme aimed at improving the reliability and efficiency of rural water services infrastructure.

I note again the ongoing co-operation by all stakeholders involved in the delivery of a work programme of the scale undertaken by the Department. The Department, its agencies and our partners for delivery, including the local authorities, NGO and AHB sectors, continue to be acutely focused on achieving the best for citizens. Together with our colleagues from Uisce Éireann and others, I look forward to engaging with the committee this morning.

An Cathaoirleach

We are joined by Ms Jenny Connors from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. She is very welcome.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We have a large array of witness before us. I hope they can assist us in getting to the bottom of some of our questions.

I will return to an issue I have raised many times, namely, the HAP and RAS. I have characterised these as accounting for one of the largest spends being left in the hands of some of the least equipped and most vulnerable people. The target and output for 2022 was nearly 19,000 HAP and RAS units. What was the total cost of HAP and RAS in the appropriations account?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The outturn for HAP was just under €540 million and for RAS it was €114 million. In both cases, it was a little less than the budget allocation.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

This means well over €600 million of procurement by the State of housing supply was negotiated by recipients with their landlords on an individual basis. Is that correct?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In the case of HAP, people seek their own properties. In the case of RAS, it is a little different in terms of the local authorities.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Again, with RAS the individual relationship is set up between the landlord and the tenant.

Mr. Graham Doyle

My understanding in relation to RAS is that-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Sorry, I am referring to the price and the arrangement to secure the particular property.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is with the local authority in that case. In HAP it is as the Deputy says.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I will not get bogged down in that differentiation but I appreciate the difference. This is a monumental amount of public money that appears to have very little value for money at its core. Taking HAP, €500 million was spent without any effort to leverage the total spend against value for money. If the Department entered the market with a budget of €500 million, it would be able to exercise much greater value for money in securing those units than allowing each individual to procure one of those 20,000 units in the market. Does Mr. Doyle accept this is an incredibly poor way of securing housing from a value-for-money perspective?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I suppose if there was a way to negotiate with a single landlord or a small number of landlords to apply the strength one would have in spending that amount of money, yes, one would be able to get potentially more value for money. Unfortunately, in the case of HAP, one is dealing with 31,000 landlords and in the case of RAS, it is about 8,000 landlords.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is my point. There are 40,000 individual landlords who are being allowed to extract the maximum value for them. Who is representing the State on the other side? Often, it is very vulnerable people who have to secure those properties. We do not in any way support people to negotiate and they are often in very vulnerable circumstances. They could be leaving emergency accommodation. Whatever the circumstances, people just want a house and their biggest challenge is whether they get enough money out of HAP to secure a property. My point is there is a structural problem here, where we have nearly €600 million to spend and we will never get good value because we have 40,000 negotiators. There is no other element of procurement on behalf of the State where we would allow 40,000 people to negotiate that total spend.

Mr. Graham Doyle

That is true. There are 59,000 HAP tenancies and 16,500 RAS tenancies. Those are the tenancies and there are more people under those roofs. That is a lot of people to try to accommodate under those schemes. I am not nit-picking but in some cases there is support, particularly in the HAP placefinder service, for people at risk of homelessness but in most cases it is as the Deputy says.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is incredibly limited but, again, for those key workers, it about securing the place and not in any way about identifying value for money. It is very clear that HAP and RAS are bad value for money overall. They are a necessary solution but bad value for money.

I will turn now to the tenant in situ scheme which has been rolled out. I understand that by the end of this year, approximately 2,300 people will have benefited from the tenant in situ scheme. Is that figure correct?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is broadly correct. We will have to see where it ends up but there have been a lot of properties going through that scheme.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is a really important safety net to protect the 2,300 people who have received an eviction notice and now have a local authority home. Regardless of where they were on the waiting list, they have been protected from homelessness. I know there was a huge political battle about that at the time of the ending of the eviction ban but it is important to say that, under that scheme, 2,300 people have been protected from homelessness.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is probably more people-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Of course.

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----because that figure is for properties.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, it is 2,300 units. This also highlights the criticism I just made of the HAP system. On all of those 2,300 homes, we are no longer making monthly payments and we are no longer susceptible to increasing rents in the market. We are not having an impact on the rental market by taking those 2,300 units and all those housing applicants are now housed. Those units are already being used for social housing through HAP and RAS. Yet, we are not proactively approaching any of the landlords that remain in HAP and RAS and asking them if they would like to sell the State their property. Taking 2,300 people out of HAP and RAS, getting better value for money for the State and providing a great solution for the people in question seems to be a huge win. Why is the Department not proactively presenting proposals that would allow a voluntary sale rather than only allowing such sales in circumstances where there is a crisis and an eviction?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Going back on the gestation of some of this in the last couple of years, many people have been critical of the acquisitions of social housing, so we had actually dropped the acquisition of social housing. In that response, we have increased those acquisitions again and got support to do that-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Would it be fair to say that the difference in that case was that the units being acquired were new units coming on to the market and by acquiring them, the State was competing with first-time buyers and others?

These are people's homes.

Mr. Graham Doyle

In some cases-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

These are already people's homes. The Department has every intention of continuing to procure them next year, the year after and the year after that. In all likelihood, that person could continue to rent it for ten or 15 years. The landlord could continue to use it within the HAP or RAS system for ten, 15 or 20 years. Why is the Department not proactively approaching landlords, offering to procure the home and then leaving the tenant in situ?

Mr. Graham Doyle

There are approximately 76,000 units across HAP and RAS. The Exchequer cost under HAP is just under €9,000 per annum and the cost in the case of RAS is just under €7,000 per annum. Given that volume and those average rates and the fact that it would cost a couple of hundred thousand euro to acquire each one of those properties, we are talking about very, very large numbers if we were to eliminate the whole thing. The change that has been made in the case of people at risk of homelessness is a significant one and significant moneys are being applied to that already.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

What Mr. Doyle is saying is that if we had a very large capital fund we would be able to do that. The Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform have provided very large amounts of capital funding. This is funding that we do not want to spend on an ongoing, annual basis and funding that we do not want to have an inflationary impact in the wider economy. Should we not be using those capital funds to actually reduce costs to the State? In relation to the procurement of those 2,300 homes under the tenant in situ scheme, have we done any analysis of how much that has reduced our current HAP expenditure? It should lead to a significant reduction because the State is no longer paying between €1,000 and €1,500 per month for each unit. Our current spending is reduced. What was the capital acquisition cost? We must take a value-for-money perspective here.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is not huge in the context of just over 2,000 units. We are talking about 2,000 units multiplied by-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, but it is better value for money.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, it is in that case.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Is Mr. Doyle accepting that from a cost-benefit analysis perspective, it is better value for money for the State to procure those homes?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It all depends on what scale we are talking about. This is a big policy question. It depends on the scale we are talking about and what that type of intervention, done at scale, would do to the housing market. This is something that would have to be very seriously considered if we were looking to move in that direction.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Does Mr. Doyle not think there is an onus on policy makers within the Department to be bringing forward better ways for the State to procure than HAP and RAS? We have already accepted that it is a very expensive system. There is a method for us to reduce it over time but we are not exploring it.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is important to say that we had about 4,000 exits from HAP in 2022, so HAP is starting to reduce, albeit not to the levels we would like or Deputy McAuliffe would like.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

To clarify, 4,000 tenancies exited HAP and RAS. Is that correct?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is not necessarily the same as saying that the State is reducing the total use of HAP and RAS by 4,000.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The numbers have come down in both HAP and RAS, albeit not to the levels the Deputy would like. It is starting to decrease and most of those tenants are exiting to other forms of social housing.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Yes, but they are often replaced with other tenants using those same units. Is that not the case?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The net amount is still down though.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I very much welcome that.

While the Comptroller and Auditor General would not describe it as non-compliant procurement, it looks like a crazy way of procuring that volume of units. Given that the State has very large capital reserves and the ability to purchase homes which we know we are going to rent out for at least three years and well beyond that, I do not understand why we are not making the decision to do so. Young couples renting in the market at the moment say to each other that they would be better off getting a mortgage and buying the property they are renting rather than paying the rents they are paying currently and yet the Department is not saying that, even though it is paying rents at a massive scale. I hope our guests take the point I am making. I ask them to continue to look at HAP and RAS and examine ways to use our huge capital reserves to reduce our current Government expenditure without having a massive inflationary impact. The moral hazard of the waiting list does not apply because we have already broken that principle with the tenant in situ scheme. These are already people's homes. We could procure these homes in the morning and those people would have secure tenancies for the rest of their lives. We would relieve their anguish and save the State money. That seems like a no-brainer.

I want to come back to the issue of local government funding. In the short time remaining I want to talk about the black box - I will not call it a black hole - that is local government funding. I was a member of a local authority for a long time and passed many budgets. I was part of the budget consultative group but it was incredibly difficult for us, as councillors, to quantify the total amount of income we were receiving from Government through various funds. Has the Department examined how we might simplify that? I am sure other committee members will also discuss this issue but part of the problem with assessing local government income is the lack of transparency. There is confusion around the interactivity between the local government fund, changing grants, the baseline funding model and so on. Does Mr. Doyle accept that there is a lack of transparency in that area?

Mr. Graham Doyle

There is a huge amount of complexity in it. We have highlighted that at this committee on many occasions. The chapter that the Comptroller and Auditor General completes is helpful in terms of tracking all of the elements. Local government provides over 1,100 services to the public. There are over 580 different grant lines. If I am not mistaken there are 587 different grant lines across the various Departments and agencies. The Departments of Transport and Housing, Heritage and Local Government, as the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, provide the largest amounts of funding. The range of work done by local government is huge and we have seen more recently-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I put it to Mr. Doyle that it should not be for the Comptroller and Auditor General, who produces an excellent report, to clarify the funding lines. In many ways, it is to the benefit of the Department that the issue is so complex because changes to local government funding can be very difficult for the people who set budgets to track. Councillors from all parties and none will say that it is very difficult to say in any given year whether a local authority's income is up or down or to figure out the source of the increase or decrease. Dublin City Council is a classic example. Its homeless budget is so large that in any one year, it can obliterate any surplus. I am not taking from the complexity of local government funding but the Department needs to do more to try to ensure that local authority members can get a grip on that area.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am sure the Deputy did not mean it when he said the complexity was to the benefit of the Department. Transparency-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Let me be clear. I did mean to say to the benefit because in my view, sometimes the Department does not want local authority members to be able to find out where all of the deficits in funding lie.

Mr. Graham Doyle

My attitude to these things is that we need to be as transparent as we can be and that is what I would encourage. It is complex but there have been improvements in terms of the transparency around some of these areas. We will continue to work on them. The Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned some of the-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Will the Department take the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and build on it?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are building on it already, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Murphy is next.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In addition to HAP and RAS, there are also the long leases to which Mr. Doyle referred, which are incredibly bad value for money. Properties are being leased for 25 years, with a rent review every four years and then returned to the owner at the end of the 25-year period once they have been refurbished. When HAP was introduced I made the point on numerous occasions in the Dáil that unless it was accompanied by a big building programme, it would become unsustainable but it is very difficult to work back from it at this point.

I want to deal with the issue of transparency in relation to corporate landlords and HAP. I would say HAP is more relevant than RAS in this regard. There is a threshold for public procurement that must be advertised but that would not be the case in relation to HAP. Would Mr. Doyle accept that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I might bring my colleague in on that in a moment. In HAP, there are between 31,000 and 32,000 landlords. I have seen statistics showing that the vast majority of them have a small number of properties. There are some with larger amounts-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

There are some landlords who would be receiving very large amounts of taxpayer's subsidies, over and above the amount that would normally be required to be advertised.

They are the ones I am talking about and there would be a cohort of that they are not required to advertise.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes. Not that I understand. Can I bring Ms Stapleton in?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They are in a different category. Is there transparency of that? I assume the Department has spreadsheets.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have statistics and analysis on it that we are very happy to share with the committee.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can we have that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Then we can drill down into it. Other than that we are talking in a vacuum. It is going to be quite important for us to drill down into that.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have a huge amount of statistics on HAP. The Deputy is welcome to them.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I understand the Department then makes a return to the Revenue. I think the two systems talk to each other to ensure compliance with tax rules.

Mr. Graham Doyle

As far as I am aware they do, yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Okay. Mr. Doyle might give us a note on that as well.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I move to the Local Government Fund. We have signed the European Charter of Local Self-Government. The local property tax, LPT, was introduced, but it is centrally controlled. That became even more evident with the review of the baselines. Population certainly does not matter. We were told that was going to be one of the things that was going to be a factor in the review of the baselines. Take my area, for example, which had population growth of 25,000 between 2016 and 2022. It received the minimum amount. A neighbouring county with growth of 5,000 people received €1 million more. I am just using that as an example. I do not understand the baseline review as it applied to Cork. Cork city has been expanded by bringing in Ballincollig and other areas, yet the city gets the minimum and Cork county makes the big gain from the Local Government Fund by receiving in excess of €10 million. None of it makes sense to me. Some of it is not real money either. There is an announcement of €75 million. It is the same money, but local authorities are in some cases allowed use it differently. It does not appear to be new money. I do not see where it is new money.

Mr. Graham Doyle

To them it is money they can use or access that was not there for services before.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is an announcement of money but much of it is virtual money. The authorities are allowed use the same money differently.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am not sure that is the case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have gone through the budget in some considerable detail and I do not see where it is new money.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Sure. Ms Quinn heads up the local government side of the Department, so I ask her to comment.

Ms Fiona Quinn

I know about this baseline review and colleagues have had many discussions with the Deputy on it at previous engagements. The approach we took is we set up an independent group to look at this with councillors represented from the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA, the County and City Management Association, CCMA, the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and ourselves.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I do not need a big list. I understand this.

Ms Fiona Quinn

On the recommendations that came from that group, they considered a huge range of indicators and a huge range of weightings assigned to those various indicators. On balance, the recommendations they made, which were accepted in full by the Minister and the Government, were the transparency process we see.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I must stop Ms Quinn there. Okay, there was a review, but population does not matter. I have done the numbers on this and it does not matter. Consider a county like Fingal that has outstripped everywhere else in population growth terms. There are whole new areas in it that did not exist in 2000, for example, and there is no compensation to that local authority for those new areas, despite the fact people are paying the LPT. How on earth can that system be justified? This feeds into the point Deputy McAuliffe made. These systems are made so complicated people glaze over, but in actual fact it is the greatest scam going that people are paying a local property tax that is called "local" but is anything but.

Ms Fiona Quinn

I think last year we changed the allocation method in that, previously, as the Deputy will recall, 80% was kept locally and 20% was put into an equalisation fund. Now 100% of the LPT collected in any local authority area is spent locally.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I must stop Ms Quinn there. Yes, that is the case and that simplifies it a little, but what occurs now is local authorities will have a baseline and once they go above it, they then have to self-fund things like roads. Motor tax is collected, but local authorities must use what is collected via the LPT on road repairs.

Ms Fiona Quinn

Self-funding, yes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is daft. This is made to be complicated for that reason. If the vast majority of people had an overview of this, there would be a bloody riot.

Ms Fiona Quinn

The whole purpose of the baseline review is that it has become much more transparent and much more comparable. There are five categories now.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Yes, I have been through it.

Ms Fiona Quinn

It is very transparent. On the Deputy's point around population, 10% is dedicated based on population, but deprivation, to which 20% is allocated, also takes in population, so that balances the city areas out. Obviously, geographic area is the largest percentage weighting applied to it in the new model. The reason for that is the cost of delivering services over a much more geographically dispersed region. This is what the independent committee recommended to the Minister. It looked at it and at income-raising powers as well. For the first time-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I must stop Ms Quinn again. I looked at the total spend of all local authorities, bringing everything in. I saw some local authorities with a smaller population with a bigger total income receiving more in local property tax. It just does not make sense and it is unsustainable for local authorities that have growing populations. They cannot provide services. It is self-evident that if we have more people we will require money to provide services to them. We cannot change the geography.

Ms Fiona Quinn

The key point is it is a fixed sum of money, so it is about distribution within that fixed sum. That is what the baseline review did. It reallocated within it and, as I said, there are five clear categories recommended by this group, which had councillors on it.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

At this point I am seriously considering making a complaint to the European Commission on the issue of subsidiarity in the context of us signing up to the European Charter of Local Self-Government. I have had it with the way people are being treated with respect to the LPT.

I have some quick queries on Irish Water and the controls. We were all told when it was established that it was going to be great for efficiency. I looked at a particular project in my constituency. It ran over by a year and the local authority had to take away the road opening licence because of the condition the road was being kept in. Irish Water does the contract with the contractor and the local authority does not have control over that. If that project is replicated, then I fail to see where the value for money is. What controls has Irish Water on those contracts, and what body pays when there is an overrun? Is it built into the kind of contracts being issued?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

I do not know the specific project the Deputy is talking about.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

It is the one in Celbridge, the big sewerage project.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Okay, but the vast majority of our projects are run on time and on budget. We have issues on all projects. We are a utility, so we have to go for road opening licences. For a lot of the works, whether replacing water mains or wastewater pipes, we have to open roads and there will be disruption. Again, I am not sure about the specific delays. We have an infrastructure delivery directorate that has very strict controls. The contracts are very clear about who takes responsibility. If the contractor is not behaving, we will step in. We had an incident down in Cork where we had a road blocked off for a period. The contractor was not delivering and delivering unsafely. We had to stop those works. We took that contractor off the site and replaced it. It was very inconvenient for the local people because the road remained closed for another three weeks.

We have strict controls. If the Deputy would like, I can look into the individual case.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I will come back to this topic in the second round.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I raised applications with Mr. Doyle the last time he was here. Negotiations are ongoing. In particular, I raised the issue of Louth local authority's scandalous waiting list for people who are seriously ill and who are waiting for wet rooms, stair lifts and so forth and that those waiting lists were carried year to year so people who were seriously ill had to wait years to get the basic home supports they needed for medical reasons. That was in May. The Minister said the Department was looking into a new approach to that. Louth local authority, to the best of my knowledge, still has not received any additional funding. Will Mr. Doyle give an update on that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

My understanding is that Louth County Council has received that sanction. I will bring in Ms Timmons-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I was told that as of yesterday it has not received any additional funding that was promised. Is that correct?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It has received approval for additional funding.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Approval, yes, but my question was whether it-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

The council has to draw down the funding after the work is done, which is the normal practice.

Deputy Imelda Munster

There is a sense of urgency and those people are still waiting. The full year has gone out and we will be into next year again.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have told the council it has the funding. It just needs to draw it down from us.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is a problem year-on-year. People should not have to beg and plead for funding for vulnerable elderly people every year so they can stay in their homes. What is the new approach?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will bring Ms Timmons in, in a second. Louth County Council was allocated a substantial amount more than it could spend the previous year so we reallocated that. This year, it needs to spend more so we are trying to reallocate again. That is the approach that has been taken to date.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The council has received approval. There was no difficulty. When it asked for additional funding, we were able to provide it. On the review the Deputy referred to, I am pleased to say we got a substantial increase in funding for next year. It is up to €75 million, so now we can look at-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

How does that €75 million compare with the ask from local authorities?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It can do a substantial amount. As the Deputy will be aware, a review of how we implement the grants is under way. This is a process with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We are looking at how we might implement some reform of the grants programme, including looking at the thresholds both for income and for the level of grant available to people and the thresholds for how much is contributed by the State and local authorities. All of those are being considered at the moment and we need to decide what we will do. I expect that work will conclude by the end of the year and then the Minister will be in a position to bring forward the reforms that are announced. At the moment, the work is ongoing.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The Department accepts there is a serious issue that must be sorted out.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is a tremendously important area so we are anxious to make any improvements we can.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will touch on the housing progress reports. Local authorities delivered 101 affordable purchase homes in the first half of this year and 22 affordable cost-rental homes were delivered by AHBs. The LDA did not deliver a single affordable home this year. The Government said it is committed to delivering 5,500 affordable homes this year. If we go by those figures, 123 homes were delivered by the middle of this year. What is the status of the target of 5,500 by year end?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will let Ms Timmons come in on that, but I will comment briefly at an overall level. Affordable housing is delivered in quite a number of ways now. Through the shared equity model, which is going well, there are approximately 2,500 approvals. Local authority affordable purchase has had a good number of schemes, with more in the pipeline. Housing is also delivered through the cost-rental model. The LDA is mainly involved in the cost-rental model, with the AHBs. The LDA expects to deliver approximately 800 units. A lot of the delivery is in the second half of the year and we have not been able to break that cycle. If the Deputy has more detailed questions, I am happy to bring Ms Timmons in, but that is at an overall level.

Deputy Imelda Munster

A total of 123 have been delivered thus far.

Mr. Graham Doyle

That is of affordable purchase homes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It is 101 affordable purchase homes and 22 affordable cost-rental homes, which is a total of 123. By any stretch of the imagination, that is not remotely close to the target of 5,500.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The target is not for 5,500 of those units though.

Deputy Imelda Munster

However, the target is for 5,500 affordable homes this year. I am looking for the number of homes that will be delivered between June and the end of December this year. Of the 5,373 affordable homes to be delivered by the end of the year, how many will there be?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We do not know how many we will have by the end of the year. We are working on that with all the different players.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Doyle cannot definitively say - it would probably be foolish to at this stage - that the targets will be met.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are working towards the targets in all areas. They are across-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

The Department is across it. It is working on it. How many could be completed by the end of the year?

Mr. Graham Doyle

As regards the pipeline, we know there are a lot coming through the shared equity scheme that has been-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

How many?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is probably half the target. Ms Timmons has better figures on that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Can I get the figures from Ms Timmons then as I am looking for the figures for the end of the year?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We will give the Deputy the figures we can give at this point in broad terms.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The Government has a target of 5,500 affordable homes by the end of the year. How many does the Department say will actually be delivered by the end of the year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We have released reports for Q1 and Q2. To correct the figures, we have delivered 1,268 affordable purchase homes between Q1 and Q2. The reason the Deputy is quoting the numbers she is quoting, which are also correct, is she is eliminating the first home scheme, which is substantial part of the delivery target.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is that the scheme for 30,000?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The first home scheme is the shared equity scheme.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I see, but of the affordable purchase homes, we are talking about-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

Those are counted as affordable purchase homes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

They are lobbed into those figures.

Ms Caroline Timmons

They have always been part of the figures since we published Housing for All. The overall target incorporates those figures.

Deputy Imelda Munster

By year end, how many of the 5,500-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

The Department does not give official projections. It has never been policy to do so because we invariably find-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

If the Department knows they will be delivered, and the figures are given quarterly, surely at the end of October with two months to go, the Department has a rough idea.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We are certainly tracking and I am confident that we will do well this year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Will Ms Timmons give me a rough idea?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It is not appropriate for me to comment on figures I cannot be certain of. We do not give official projections.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How many is Ms Timmons certain of?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I can certainly say that I am expecting a high level of delivery in Q3 and Q4. This is no different from social housing. In affordable housing, we find the first half of the year tends to be lighter and there is a big level of delivery in Q3 and Q4. There is a lot of talk about why that might be but it is the way it is. We see a lot of delivery-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is the Department looking at possibly 4,000 being delivered in the next three months?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not want to give those figures but I am quite confident we will see a substantial increase on the first half of the year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is Ms Timmons quite confident that the Government target of 5,500 will be met by the end of the year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

As I have said, I will not comment on whether we will meet that target, but-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I am sure if Ms Timmons was confident-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

-----the pipeline is looking quite good to us.

Deputy Imelda Munster

-----we would not be able to stop her.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Those targets were put in place to put a lot of pressure on our many delivery partners and on ourselves to try to deliver them.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Given what I have heard this morning, I am confident that there is not a hope in hell of those targets being met. If the Department wants to contradict me and give me a figure, it should by all means do so. I want to put on public record, from what I heard this morning, the Department has not a hope of meeting the delivery of 5,500 homes.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I disagree with the characterisation of what I said. I can tell the Deputy-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

By Ms Timmons cannot give me a figure.

Ms Caroline Timmons

-----the first home scheme will deliver well on its target of 2,000 this year. I can absolutely say that is going well. The local authorities are delivering well. The LDA has a good projection for year end.

AHBs have gone less well this year and they are already saying so. We have had to make changes to cost-rental equity loans, CREL-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Ms Timmons has given me figures on who is delivering what, the LDA and all. What is the overall figure for completed houses for the end of the year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

What I am saying is we do not do official projections. We do delivery afterwards.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In regard to the promised 9,000 new-build social homes, how is that figure going? The report showed 1,401 by mid-year, quarter 2 this year. That means the figure is off by 7,599. Will there be a flurry of those between now and the end of December?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are not in a particularly different position than in any previous year. Again, as Ms Timmons said, it is a feature of the way houses get delivered.

Deputy Imelda Munster

What does that mean in relation to targets?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We see a huge amount of delivery, the bulk of the target delivered, in the last couple of months of the year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is Mr. Doyle saying we could have 7,500?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am saying we expect to see a better delivery than last year which was-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

That does not answer my question. Is Mr. Doyle saying that by the year's end, the Government figures will be met, that we will have 7,500 new public homes by the end of December?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We do not give projections for the end of the year.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I do not blame you because it is obvious you are not going to meet them.

Mr. Graham Doyle

There is no point in putting targets in that can be easily met. We have not done that-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

There is no point in putting targets in that cannot be easily met either.

Mr. Graham Doyle

People have to drive towards a target.

Deputy Imelda Munster

They are not driving very hard.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are driving very hard, I can assure the Deputy.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The figures do not show that.

Mr. Graham Doyle

They do.

Deputy Imelda Munster

They actually do not. You cannot give them.

An Cathaoirleach

Could we just clarify one thing? There was something of a revelation for me in that exchange. Before we go any further, in regard to affordable homes, I understood that to be an important housing scheme. Did I hear Ms Timmons correctly when she said that the shared equity scheme is bundled in and counted as affordable homes?

Ms Caroline Timmons

That is correct. In the delivery tables we release each year and in Housing for All, that is part of the Housing for All target.

An Cathaoirleach

Am I correct in saying that the shared equity scheme is the top-up loan provided by the Government? An individual or couple who cannot borrow sufficient money to buy a house for say €300,000, have to borrow €240,000 and the Government gives them €60,000 which they have to start paying back after six years. Is that counted as affordable housing?

Mr. Graham Doyle

They do not have to-----

An Cathaoirleach

They do not have to, but the charge stays on the property. It has to be paid back at some time, or if the property is sold the money has to be paid back. Can I clarify the point? Are we saying that is now counted as part of affordable housing?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It was always in the Housing for All plan that that is the affordable purchase model. It is the exact same model as the local authority affordable purchase scheme.

An Cathaoirleach

Many people in the business reckon that the top-up loan drove up the price of housing, that it actually increased the price of housing. The evidence from Britain showed the same outcome from a similar scheme there.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We do not believe that to be case, Cathaoirleach. We put in safeguards around the maximum that is allowed-----

An Cathaoirleach

After the scheme was brought in, prices started lifting again.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I do not believe that is associated with the scheme. The scheme has safeguards. It is a different scheme from that in the UK.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Doyle, the price of the house is the same. It is still €300,000. I do not get the affordable part of it. Where is the affordability?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It allows somebody to get into the market for that house who would not have been-----

An Cathaoirleach

To get into heavier debt.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I would not say into heavier debt because they do not have to make the repayment around it.

An Cathaoirleach

It is postponed. The debt is postponed, that is all.

Mr. Graham Doyle

To think about that for a moment, if somebody manages to buy a house at €300,000 who was only able to get a mortgage for €240,000, if that house appreciates in value over a number of years, that person is on the housing ladder where they would not have been otherwise.

An Cathaoirleach

It is very disappointing to hear this. I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am going to stick with housing in the broad sense but change focus. I want to ask about local authority retrofit of social housing. My understanding of it is that the target the Department set is to retrofit all social homes by 2050. By implication, that means by 2049 there will still be some of our most vulnerable people living in cold houses with high energy prices, and not just cold houses but very often unhealthy houses or houses that produce air pollution or emissions, etc. We will have a huge issue in how we tackle the retrofit of rental properties, but considering the State, as a landlord, is setting itself a target of completing a retrofit programme by 2050 only, can we stand over that as a State? Have we any plans to accelerate that roll out? How are we planning the roll out? How are we prioritising and making sure we reach the furthest behind first?

Mr. Graham Doyle

There are about 140,000 local authority homes. About 5,000 are already at a building energy rating, BER, of B2 because they are new homes delivered in recent years. Some 75,000 had a shallow retrofit at the start and 36,000 social homes are to have a deep retrofit under the two programmes, the energy efficiency retrofit and the midlands retrofit programmes. That is being done at the moment at a rate of just over 2,000 a year. That shallow retrofit was extensive at an earlier stage for about half the stock. As I said, a good proportion of the stock of social houses is already at B2 because 35,000 of them are new and at that standard.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Similarly, there is a good shot of social housing that is nowhere near B2. Have we some sort of analysis across our social housing stock on where we are in energy efficiency? Are we still looking at a lot of F- and G-rated homes, 1930s council housing stock, where, no matter how much coal is shovelled onto the fire, the heat goes straight up the chimney? Have we a clear and comprehensive picture of where we are with our social housing stock?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In the case of the 75,000 houses, the more than half that had shallow retrofits, there will have been very good progress in addressing some of those issues the Deputy refers to. In terms of the analysis, I do not have it to hand but I am happy to get it for the Deputy.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That would be useful to have. If 140,000 homes are in social housing, I would like to understand how many are F- and G-rated. There is no heating an F- or G-rated home. You are going to heat one room of your home and you are going to do it at great cost. Energy efficiency means a lot.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I can tell the Deputy that of the 140,000, 75,000 have had a shallow retrofit, 35,000 are fully up to BER B2 rating.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

That still leaves-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

That still leaves 35,000 of them, and the rest are undergoing the deep retrofit under the programme.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I thank Mr. Doyle. There is a lot more to dig into there, but I want to have a look at water issues. Another Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, report out this morning tells us that, shockingly, three Olympic-sized swimming pools of untreated raw sewage go into Ireland's water systems every day. Some of the comments made by the EPA director, Dr. Tom Ryan, indicate that, 30 years after we were due to comply with EU environmental protection standards, less than half of wastewater is being treated to the standards required. Most damningly in this big picture, and there are some small, specific pieces I want to delve into, he says Uisce Éireann should have a long-term plan for this work but does not have clear plans to prevent pollution at some of the most significantly impacted water bodies. Uisce Éireann was much feted when it came into being as the solution to these issues. Can we stand over that rate of failure in terms of our wastewater treatment?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

It has to be remembered we are starting from a base of complete underinvestment for probably 60 to 80 years. Since Uisce Éireann has come on board, we have made huge improvements. Those improvements are acknowledged in the EPA's report. It is critical of our rate of progress but acknowledges we are making progress. One of the biggest impacts for our rate of progress is around planning, especially in the wastewater area because everybody wants wastewater treatment in their town or village but nobody wants it anywhere near their house. We have big challenges in getting those through the planning process, judicial reviews and all that kind of stuff. We are making significant progress, however. We have done workshops with the EPA because we are putting together our plan for revenue control period 4, RC 4, which is what we will propose to the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, over the next year.

We have discussed with the EPA what we intend to do with that plan and the other plans that are in place. There might be areas where we do not have detailed plans, but the EPA has certainly seen significant plans. Mr. Laffey might wish to comment on this, but the areas where we do not have plans are-----

Mr. Sean Laffey

It is important to have context. We have roughly 1,100 wastewater treatment plants. By number, 91% of those are compliant with the urban wastewater treatment directive. By volume, though, only 40% are compliant. The main driver of that difference is Ringsend, which treats approximately 45% of the volume of wastewater produced in the country.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I understand.

Mr. Sean Laffey

Ringsend will be compliant by the end of the year, which will put us at over 90% compliance by volume.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I do not mean to interrupt, but I have an eye on the clock. We have a picture of the situation at wastewater treatment plant level, but we do not have a picture of small private water supplies. Rather, we do not have anywhere near as clear a picture as we need. Another concern is septic tanks. I suppose I am referring to water in, water out. According to an EPA report from June 2022 on septic tank inspection rates, 1,147 inspections had been carried out. Of that tiny number, 53% of septic tanks failed and 29% were considered a risk to human health. Twenty tanks were tested in Waterford that year. What is our testing rate? How many domestic septic tanks are there and what percentage of them are we testing per year?

Mr. Sean Laffey

I am sorry to cut across the Deputy, but we have no part to play in septic tank inspections.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

So, they are for local authorities.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will ask Mr. Towey to comment on the rural water programme.

Mr. Fintan Towey

Approximately 30% of households are dependent on domestic wastewater treatment systems. Most of those are septic tanks.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

So that I can compare like with like, how many of those were inspected? If there were 1,147 inspections in 2020, what percentage of the overall stock are we talking about?

Mr. Fintan Towey

I do not know the percentage of the stock off the top of my head. I could work it out. Approximately 30% of households in the country have a septic tank. The rate of inspection is quite low relative to the stock.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Would it be fair to characterise it as extremely low?

Mr. Fintan Towey

I would say it is quite low, but an important point to remember is that,-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Are we hitting 1% per year?

Mr. Fintan Towey

-----by design at the planning stage, a septic tank is allowed as a solution because, in the context and in the setting-----

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I know that. The house I grew up in was built in the 1970s before I was born and has a septic tank that is 50 years old. That is not atypical. Are we even hitting 1% per year for the number of septic tanks being tested?

Mr. Fintan Towey

It is probably a low single-digit percentage, but I am not going to jump at the figure.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Am I right in saying that, if someone wants to avail of a grant to upgrade his or her septic tank, it first has to fail an inspection?

Mr. Fintan Towey

Predominately, yes. There are limited circumstances otherwise.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

There is a specific scheme for domestic wastewater treatment systems in houses situated in high-status objective catchment areas. There is a large catchment area in Waterford that covers most of the Comeragh Mountains and another out in west Waterford. When I conducted a mail-out on this matter, no one in those areas was aware of the scheme, which I believe involves 80% grant funding. What is the scheme’s uptake rate?

Mr. Fintan Towey

It is quite low and varies from year to year.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

As I understand it, there is still money in the pot because it has not been drawn down.

Mr. Fintan Towey

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

A massive part of Wicklow, much of Clare and large swathes of west Cork are in these catchment areas, and those are only the ones that come to mind from looking at the issue. There is no uptake.

Mr. Fintan Towey

The scheme is administered through the local authorities, but the Deputy is correct, in that the uptake level relative to the provision is quite low. It is typically between 100 and 200 households per year.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am reminded of the Clinton-era military policy of “Don’t ask, don’t tell”. The flip side of this coin is the issue of private wells. We are not testing them in any sort of meaningful way. I imagine that the percentage of private water solutions being tested in real time mirrors that of septic tanks being tested. We can focus on Uisce Éireann, and the EPA has been critical of its achievements this morning, but at least I have a picture of those. I can at least look at the map and see whether Kilmore Quay needs to be addressed. There are many areas that are not captured, for example, Bunmahon in my constituency and Tramore pier at the bottom of my road, which is a whole other can of worms, but at least I have a picture. For private water into houses – wells – and septic tanks, though, I have no picture at all.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Towey should reply briefly.

Mr. Fintan Towey

The model in respect of private wells is that they are allowed as a solution to meet the water requirements of households at the planning stage, but it is the responsibility of the householder to ensure that source is appropriate.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

These are two sides of the same coin. If we have bad septic tanks-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry, but I must call Deputy Burke.

Deputy Colm Burke

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I will start with the issue of vacant properties. This week saw an inquest in Cork, from which it appears that there had been a body in a boarded-up house for over 20 years. It appears that the person died in 2001 and remained undiscovered for a further 22 years. What more action can be taken to deal with the issue of vacant properties? One of the problems involved is that of title difficulties, meaning that people cannot borrow and invest money. There is a process that local authorities could use, that being, a compulsory purchase order. I have not seen local authorities being proactive in that regard, though, or engaging with people on it. How can we fast-track the use of that process to resolve title difficulties?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will not take up much of the committee’s time, but we have had a significantly different focus on vacancy over the past while within the Department.

Deputy Colm Burke

But we still have 180,000 properties-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have made many changes to address the vacancy issue across the services that we provide within the Department and with local authorities. For example, there are vacancy officers in every local authority. Some local authorities have been more proactive than others in tackling vacancies and using measures like compulsory purchase orders. Limerick in particular has used many compulsory purchase orders.

Deputy Colm Burke

I am talking about assisting property owners. When the property owner or the person entitled to the property engaged with the local authority, the local authority would make a compulsory purchase order and sell the property back to that person at a cost. I have seen this approach being used effectively by Cork City Council. I am not necessarily saying that a local authority should take on responsibility for carrying out repairs and the like afterwards, but it would sort out the title difficulty, which would then allow the individual to invest money and bring the property into use.

Mr. Graham Doyle

As the Deputy alluded, there are many different circumstances, for example with regard to who owns the properties. There are a range of schemes that allow people to access funding, expertise and so forth in order to bring properties back into use.

Deputy Colm Burke

Someone cannot get funding unless he or she has the title. No one will touch that application for funding.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Legislative changes were made recently to allow local authorities more powers in some of those cases. I will ask Ms Timmons to contribute on that point.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The committee might be interested in knowing about the compulsory purchase order, CPO, activation programme that we launched in April. We agree with the Deputy that the use of CPO powers by the local authorities could be strengthened. We published a significant guide to local authorities as part of the activation programme on how to use these CPO powers. We have asked them to put 4,000 properties through the programme this year. Those properties can be activated in a number of ways, for example through the vacant property refurbishment grant, the repair-and-lease scheme or the buy-and-renew scheme. Another option would be to put a property through the CPO process. We have asked local authorities to look at their derelict sites registers and their vacant stock surveys and to engage with landlords on this matter.

Deputy Colm Burke

Ms Timmons must accept that, in this case, the house had been vacant for more than 22 years.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes.

Deputy Colm Burke

This was at a time when there was a housing shortage.

The other issue I want to deal with relates to whether the Department has had any engagement with the banks recently. I wrote to all of the banks about the vacant properties. Only two banks replied to me, Bank of Ireland and AIB. The latter confirmed that it has 87 vacant properties currently and is dealing with local authorities. I am wondering if the Department has engaged with the banks recently about vacant properties. The reason I am raising this is that there are four properties that I am aware of that have been vacant for more than ten or 12 years. Everyday Finance has a property that has been vacant for more than 13 years. It will not even respond to my letters. Has the Department engaged with the banks recently on this matter? I am talking about financial institutions like Everyday Finance.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am not sure about recent engagements, but we have engaged in the past with the banks around this issue-----

Deputy Colm Burke

In fairness, AIB has said that it has offered over 2,000 properties to the Housing Agency. It has been engaging with the Housing Agency. I should acknowledge that AIB has done that. Has the Department engaged with the banks recently regarding properties that are vacant for long periods? There are four properties that I know of that are very good and that could be moved into tomorrow with a bit of work. These properties have been vacant for more than ten years.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is obviously easier for somebody to get finance for a property that is completed. There is no risk involved, it is immediately available, etc. It is harder for people to try to get financing from banks to refurbish properties. We have engaged-----

Deputy Colm Burke

These are properties that have been repossessed by the banks.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Repossessed by the banks.

Deputy Colm Burke

They have been repossessed by the banks.

Mr. Graham Doyle

There is a programme of work-----

Deputy Colm Burke

In one particular case, the judgment mortgage was registered in 2012 and it has been vacant since. The person who is living in the house alongside it moved in there 13 years ago. That property has been vacant for the entire period since.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Apologies, but I misunderstood the question. We have a stream of work with the Housing Agency to engage on properties that have been repossessed by the banks to try to return them into use.

Deputy Colm Burke

I am asking if the engagement was recent. It appears that a large number of properties are still vacant.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I know that engagement has happened but I am not sure how recent it was. I will find out.

Deputy Colm Burke

Maybe it might be worth-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

If it has not been recent, it will be followed up.

Deputy Colm Burke

There is a large number of properties still not progressing which have been vacant for long periods and could be put into use.

I want to move on to Irish Water. In the period 2000 to 2008, we allowed the developers to put in sewage treatment facilities. Many of those facilities are not up to scratch. My understanding is that in Cork County alone there are over 50. The total number for the entire country is more than 500. What level of engagement has there been between Irish Water, previous contractors and local authorities? What joined-up thinking has there been as regards trying to bring all of these facilities up to the required standard?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Some of them have been taken in to Irish Water. Some continue to get grants and some do not,-----

Deputy Colm Burke

A lot of them are not There are over 500 that are not.

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----in which case the multi-annual water programme has grant funding available within those. It probably cuts across both areas. Perhaps Mr. Gleeson would like to comment on those taken in charge by Irish Water.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

On an ad hoc basis, local authority water services have been maintaining a lot of the developer provided water services infrastructure, DPI, facilities, as we refer to them. As the Deputy has said, many are in poor condition. Some of them are actually well run by the management companies. Some of the estates have groups that get together and run them. Others are not in good condition. Because the local authorities are moving out of water services, they will de facto become our problem. We are working on a programme-----

Deputy Colm Burke

Can we fast track a lot of that? In fairness, we did a huge amount of work in cities and towns with main drainage, making sure that there was no contamination of water. Then we built all of these facilities and there is still contamination of streams in rural areas as well. I am wondering if we fast track a lot of them.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

We have a huge programme of work around the country. We are spending €1.3 billion on capital improvement projects. This is yet another workstream that we have to address. We will analyse and prioritise, and we will address the ones that are polluting most as quickly as possible. We are at the early stages of analysing these works.

Mr. Sean Laffey

We have done a lot of work. The Deputy is correct. There are 539 DPI facilities outstanding across the country. Where local authorities are currently stepping in to assist local communities in running them, we will certainly continue that service once we fully take over water services. We have a memorandum of understanding with the Department, and we have a methodology in place. We have a very good picture of DPIs around the country, and in fact we have dealt with some of them by connecting them directly into our networks.

Deputy Colm Burke

Is it possible to get a report on the extent of the challenge that Irish Water faces on that?

Mr. Sean Laffey

We will certainly do that.

Deputy Colm Burke

It would be interesting to see county by county and local authority by local authority, what the challenges are and what needs to be done to see how we can improve that.

I want to move on to the issue of outstanding rents in local authorities. Has the Department got a breakdown in relation to housing rents not paid? Are there challenges in some local authorities as regards making sure that there is an adequate system in place for the collection of rents?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The collection of rents in those cases is a matter for the individual local authorities.

Deputy Colm Burke

In fairness, the Department is providing the funding. If they are not doing their job collecting rents-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

They do have to do their job in collecting rents. I know we have some statistical information around that. Perhaps Ms Quinn has some of that to hand or has some knowledge of it.

Ms Fiona Quinn

The latest audited accounts that we have for the local government sector are the 2021 accounts. The 2022 accounts are being finalised and are coming in at the moment. Of course, we have to remember that the 2021 accounts cover the period during Covid as well. There were 82% overall collection rates in housing loans, which had grown from 79% in 2020. The figure for housing rents was 87% in 2021 and for commercial rates, it was 89%. We are seeing an increase in general terms in all-----

Deputy Colm Burke

What kind of money are we talking about that is owed to local authorities between commercial rents and finances?

Ms Fiona Quinn

In terms of rents, there was just over €96 million due at the end of 2021. There was €255 million due in rates and €22.6 million due for housing loans at the end of 2021. I would say that those figures do not include processes where there are payment plans in place or debt collection processes under way as well.

Deputy Colm Burke

We are talking about over €350 million in real terms due to local authorities.

Ms Fiona Quinn

That is improving all the time. We have seen-----

Deputy Colm Burke

It is over €370 million in real terms.

Ms Fiona Quinn

Over the past few years, we have seen a continuous improvement. We expect the unaudited 2022 accounts to show that collection rates have reached 90% for the first time ever, so there has been a significant increase.

Deputy Colm Burke

On the commercial rates owed, the €255 million, where are there as regards making sure that that does not escalate further? I know that businesses had a difficult time during Covid. There were various programmes put in place. At what stage will a local authority end up having to do a right-off, and what will be the extent of that right-off? Likewise, with rents and loans as well.

Ms Fiona Quinn

It is constant and they manage their debts on an ongoing basis. There will be right-offs of small amounts in most years if necessary. As I have said, we are seeing a significant improvement in the collection of commercial rates. We expect to reach 90% for the first time ever. There is a real improvement in collection rates across the board. From a local authority perspective, even that 90% does not include the cases where they have payment plans in place with businesses. Obviously, they have supported both their tenants, people that have loans from them and businesses right throughout Covid in terms of trying to balance that and put payment plans in place where necessary to support them. Certainly, we are seeing a recovery, and the collection figures are all going in the right direction. It is a piece of work that is under way constantly.

An Cathaoirleach

We are going to take a short break. I will suspend the meeting for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 10.59 am. and resumed at 11.09 a.m.

An Cathaoirleach

The next speaker is Deputy Brady.

Deputy John Brady

Good morning to our witnesses. I want to focus initially on social and affordable housing but I have questions for Irish Water as well.

On the budget for 2023 for social and affordable housing, what is the overall budget that has been allocated?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The housing budget for 2023 is €3.6 billion.

Deputy John Brady

A figure of €4 billion has been out in the media over the last number of days and it has been said that there is €4 billion earmarked for spending on social and affordable housing this year. Is that figure correct?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The figure that gets used in that case takes into account the Housing Finance Agency's funding and also funding through the LDA. The figure that gets compiled is the housing budget itself plus those sources of funding.

Deputy John Brady

According to the figures that have come out, to the end of September there has been a spend of €1.9 billion. Is that correct?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, that is correct for our spending. That is just in terms of the Exchequer part.

Deputy John Brady

Less than half of that budget has been spent up to the end of September. Regarding projections for year end, is it anticipated that the full budget will be exhausted?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes. We are about 50% ahead this year in our capital spend. We are on track on current spend. We are 50% ahead of capital spend from where we were this time last year. There is a significant amount of delivery, as always. However, it is very much back-ended for the year. It is quite a phenomenon that, as much as we look at it, we have not been able to change. There will be a lot of social housing units delivered at the end of the year and that takes up the bulk of our budget.

Deputy John Brady

That is unlike last year, when there was an underspend of €471 million or 2021, when there was an underspend of €441 million. Is the Department projecting that there will be absolutely zero underspend this year?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In the same way we do not do forecasts on housing activity, we will not give a forecast like that. Our objective is to spend our capital budget in its entirety. There is always an element of carry-forward but we do not like surrendering money. We had this discussion last time we were before the committee. Nobody in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage gets up in the morning and wants to underspend the budget. We do however want to spend our budget properly and in line with all the procedures we have to deal with.

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Doyle cannot give assurances that there will be no underspend.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is all tied to how many units get delivered and claimed before that magic date of 31 December. With discrete periods of time called years, either it falls in or it does not. If it does not fall in and get delivered, it does not get funded.

Deputy John Brady

We are getting no commitment that the target of 9,100 social and affordable housing will be met. What we are hearing is that there will be a substantial increase on last year, which was pretty low. Many would say that the target set by the Government is too low to begin with, but we are not even getting assurances that that low target of 9,100 will be met. I am also getting no assurances that there will not be an underspend with the Department again this year.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I would just say something about last year's spend. If we go back to the last full year of activity before Covid, last year's delivery of new builds was about 50% higher than that. This year's delivery of new builds is looking to be ahead of that, while I am not putting a forecasted amount on it. What I can give a commitment to is that every effort is being made to try to deliver those units this year.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, but there are no assurances. I will move on to the issue of voids in local authority housing. It is a crime to have any local authority houses vacant at any point. I would cite my own constituency of Wicklow where there are currently 145 local authority houses boarded up right across the county. What are the figures overall for the State for local authority voids or boarded-up houses and vacant council properties? Do the witnesses have those figures?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will ask Ms Timmons to come in on the void figures in a moment. I would just say that we do not count voids in terms of housing delivery but we do fund them and are very anxious to see those void units used. We have provided significant funding in the last couple of years. There was stimulus funding about two years ago that was a blitz on a lot of that activity. Different local authorities have different approaches to voids. Some do minimal refurbishment to get the unit in and others do more extensive-----

Deputy John Brady

I am aware of that. I am just conscious of the time.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Ms Timmons can give an overall sense of the void piece.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I can give the Deputy the target we have our voids programme, which is 2,400-----

Deputy John Brady

Do we have a figure for how many are vacant or boarded up?

Ms Caroline Timmons

No, that is not a figure the Department collects. However, it is collected by the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, and I think it has given the figures for 2021. Just from memory, the proportion of local authority stock that is void is very small compared to the overall levels of local authority stock. I think it is running at a rate of-----

Deputy John Brady

That is not the question I asked

Ms Caroline Timmons

-----between 2% and 3%.

Deputy John Brady

It may be small but to have 145 houses boarded up-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

If we have the figure, we will get it for the Deputy.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We can look for the figure in the NOAC report.

Deputy John Brady

It may be small but the witnesses will appreciate that, in the midst of a housing crisis, to have 145 local authority houses boarded up in one constituency is an absolute crime.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Absolutely. That is why we provide the funding.

Deputy John Brady

The local authority will say the reason many of those houses are boarded up, some for over two years and more, is because of the lack of funding coming from central government. Can the witnesses give assurances that for any request coming from a local authority to carry out a pre-letting works on a local authority house that is boarded up, 100% funding on request will be provided by the Department?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are very anxious to fund voids. I can never say that we will fund any request that comes in but we are very anxious to spend the budget available to us. I have detailed figures on the Deputy's question in front of me now. I will not take up his time by giving them all but the bottom line, looking at significant refurbishment programmes or voids, which are not as significant, is that there are about 2,000 units in total. Some of those are significant refurbishments, which involve taking families out and putting them back in.

Deputy John Brady

That is 2,000 across the State.

Mr. Graham Doyle

That is about 1.5% -----

Deputy John Brady

There are 145 in Wicklow and 2,000 across the State. When I engage with my local authority in Wicklow, it says it can only progress so far because of a shortage of funding coming from central government. Mr. Doyle is saying he cannot give assurances that requests coming from Wicklow or any other local authority for funding will be granted.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have been going out with additional funding. We are very anxious-----

Deputy John Brady

Is Mr. Doyle saying that all requests for funding are being met by local authorities?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We will always discuss voids with the local authorities and try to fund them.

Deputy John Brady

Discussing and giving assurances that all funding requests-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

No Accounting Officer will come in here and give an absolute assurance that any request that comes in will be dealt with. I can give assurances that we are very interested in getting all those units back into use.

Deputy John Brady

As are the many hundreds of thousands across the State and those in Wicklow as well. In a housing crisis, to see houses boarded up for two years and more in some cases is an absolute disgrace. I would encourage the witnesses to engage with local authorities-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

We absolutely are.

Deputy John Brady

-----particularly in Wicklow in my case. In my last couple of minutes I will just deal with questions to Irish Water about the algae bloom we saw in Lough Neagh in the Six Counties over the summer. There are considerable concerns in this State as well, which is under its jurisdiction. Killarney has been cited and Blessington Lakes in my own constituency. An Taisce has highlighted serious concerns it has with regard to algae blooms in Blessington Lakes. Blessington Lakes, as the witnesses well know, provide up to 40% of the drinking water for the greater Dublin area. Are there concerns there about the algae blooms in Blessington and other areas? What actions are being taken?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Some algae blooms are naturally occurring. We have them in quite a lot of our water bodies. Mr. Laffey might elaborate on that.

Mr. Sean Laffey

Algal blooms are natural and they have been a recurring phenomenon on the Vartry system for the past number of decades. We know exactly when they arrive. They come in March-April time. They are generally gone by May. We are keeping an eye on it.

The issue in Lough Neagh really is around the fact there are multiple wastewater treatment plants discharging into what is essentially a closed lake and you have also a lot of run-off from agricultural activity which is raising the amount of nutrients in the water which is driving the algal bloom. We get the odd algal bloom up in Blessington lakes but we are monitoring it very, very closely. We are not in a similar situation as we are in Lough Neagh but that is not to say we should not keep an eye on these types of things.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy O'Connor.

Deputy John Brady

Is there a threat to-----

Mr. Sean Laffey

No. The treatment plant is fully capable.

Deputy John Brady

Is there a threat to members of the public who would use the lake for amenity purposes?

Mr. Sean Laffey

None at the moment. Essentially, blue-green algae is the stuff that you need to look for. We get that on very rare occasions but we would not consider it a threat at the moment.

Deputy John Brady

At the moment.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Laffey. I call Deputy O'Connor.

Deputy James O'Connor

I thank the officials, and people from Irish Water, for being here this morning. First, they would be familiar with the fact we had devastating floods in east Cork in recent days. I acknowledge the superb work that was done by people on the ground with the local authority. As Mr. Doyle will be aware, we have a new county manager in Cork, Ms Valerie O'Sullivan, who took over only a couple of weeks ago, and this was some baptism of fire. It is decent for any politician to recognise it was not an easy situation. I just want to add my voice and thank them for their work. Similarly, there were people working with Irish Water locally. It has been very difficult.

Irish Water has been going through a huge transformation. Mr. Gleeson has almost 4,000 staff, has he not?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

A lot of staff have not transferred yet, so we would have about 1,200 Uisce Éireann staff.

Deputy James O'Connor

By the end of it, however, will there be approximately 4,000?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

There will be.

Deputy James O'Connor

As part of that transition, it is interesting what is required in terms of the work Mr. Gleeson's organisation will have to do. I am particularly thinking of ground staff who are working with wastewater. Whether it is human waste or, indeed, industrial waste, is it not very dangerous work?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

I would not say it is dangerous work but it is certainly hazardous. However, they are trained and they have all the personal protective equipment, PPE, that is required to work in those conditions. Obviously, when we are designing those plants, we try to reduce the risk as much as possible. A big part of our upgrade programme is to make sure the staff on the ground have not only good tools and equipment but a plant they can operate without any hazard.

Deputy James O'Connor

Is it correct to say Uisce Éireann would have control measures in place?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Generally, we should have control measures all right.

Deputy James O'Connor

Is it correct to say that one of those control measures is vaccinations?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Yes, there are vaccinations.

Deputy James O'Connor

And medical assessments as well, is that not right?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

They would have been provided, if I am right, to people who would have worked previously with local government. In terms of its obligations, what has Uisce Éireann been doing to fulfil that?

Mr. Sean Laffey

The staff, until very recently, have been local authority staff and the responsibility for their management and the health and safety has been the responsibility of the local authority. As they transfer across to us, we will, of course, take on that responsibility. We actually run vaccination clinics for our own staff. Once staff transfer to us, they will come under that regime as well.

Deputy James O'Connor

Am I right is saying that would have kicked in at the start of this year where that obligation would have changed as people transitioned in?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

The local authorities have been transferring over this year on a phased basis. We have 31 local authorities that are under direct management of Uisce Éireann and all of those staff are now under our health and safety rules. It would be my understanding the vaccination programmes will just continue. I am not aware of any changes there.

Deputy James O'Connor

Will Mr. Gleeson tell me about Uisce Éireann's own vaccination programme?

Mr. Sean Laffey

Essentially, we offer the flu vaccine and the Covid vaccine. Where we have our own directly employed staff who might be directly in contact with wastewater material, we offer them vaccines for hepatitis A and that.

Deputy James O'Connor

Will Mr. Laffey stand over that-----

Mr. Sean Laffey

Yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

-----because I have information to say that Uisce Éireann does not have one?

Mr. Sean Laffey

Who said we do not have one?

Deputy James O'Connor

A whistleblower brought it to my attention.

Mr. Sean Laffey

We can certainly discuss that, but I can tell the Deputy at the moment there are emails going around within Uisce Éireann asking people to sign up for vaccinations.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Under this transfer programme, under the transfer management, we analyse all the health and safety programmes that each local authority had and vaccination would have come in under that. We have now taken over those health and safety plans. If there are gaps, I would certainly be interested to hear it. We would like to get more information on that but I am not aware of any issues with vaccination.

Deputy James O'Connor

If a person is working near water on roads in a confined space, there is a term for that, that is, safety critical worker. Am I correct in saying that a person has to have a safety critical medical assessment that he or she is fit to work?

Mr. Sean Laffey

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy James O'Connor

The issue is there is this transition but I am getting concerns from people working for Uisce Éireann that these are not being managed very well. What management initiatives and funding did Uisce Éireann put in place during 2022 with the realisation this transition was to take place?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

The health and safety programme was a huge part of the transition and of the management of the take-up. We have hired an additional 40 health and safety experts into the Uisce Éireann side of things. Like I said, before we took over from the local authorities, we analysed the health and safety plans. Whatever gaps there were, we will fill them.

I am quite happy to talk to the Deputy later on specific instances. We definitely have a programme in place where all this stuff and all these should be captured, for instance, the critical worker and the assessments. I am surprised it is an issue now because the data are very recent. We would be taking local authority information as to the capability of the worker so we would probably not have done very many medical assessments because they have transferred in recent months. Maybe there is a backlog or whatever. I am quite happy to look into it. We would be relying on information provided by the local authorities as far as those assessments are concerned.

Deputy James O'Connor

Are the safety critical medicals undertaken by occupational health professionals or providers, for example, doctors and nurses, and relevant experts?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Yes.

Mr. Sean Laffey

They would be. You would have to have someone who was specifically qualified in those assessments.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

I do not know who else would do it, yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

So Uisce Éireann has a process in place to provide the safety critical medicals to employees in safety critical roles.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

If required, yes.

Deputy James O'Connor

I am reassured to some degree by that. We will have to double-check in relation to the person who brought that to our attention.

It is important to reference that, during 2022, there were very severe water outages, which have been going on for a number of years, especially around the Whitegate area. What happened recently in east Cork is an indication of the water quality problems we were having. It is an area that experiences significant rainfall. This year we had record rainfall in July prior to these floods taking place, but during 2022, water outages were very common. It is so frustrating for the families and those involved who want to try to get safe water to the taps in their homes and to the showers, for sanitation, for drinking and for other use as well. I get the impression if this happened in Dublin, it would not be a problem and that it would be dealt with, but in my constituency, we are having to wait years for that critical infrastructure to be put in place. Will Mr. Gleeson commit to taking that aside and having a look to see what could be done to speed it up? There are plans in place to upgrade our water infrastructure locally. That said, it is fairly aggravating for people locally. I suppose they have to get some degree of confidence that it will be looked into.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Whitegate is one that is right front and centre with us. We have spent significant sums trying to get that. The problem is with the water source itself. As the Deputy says, with the heavy rains in that area, it gets contaminated. Mr. Laffey might have more detail on the plan for Whitegate.

Mr. Sean Laffey

On Whitegate, we went for planning permission and it has been appealed to An Bord Pleanála. We have a plan. We have a solution. We are going to get on. The money has been ring-fenced for the Whitegate plant upgrade.

Deputy James O'Connor

When did the appeal go into An Bord Pleanála?

Mr. Sean Laffey

I cannot tell the Deputy exactly.

Deputy James O'Connor

Could Mr. Laffey send me a note on that?

Mr. Sean Laffey

It must be three or four months ago.

Deputy James O'Connor

It would be good to see that, if Mr. Laffey can.

Mr. Paul Hogan

To clarify that one, it went to An Bord Pleanála in June of this year. It is 18 weeks with the board at this stage.

Deputy James O'Connor

It has been 18 weeks. I would appreciate it if that could be expedited. I understand there is a process that has to happen but, obviously, that is frustrating and disappointing.

On the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, this week of all weeks is not the time to be criticising the local authority in my area but something I would ask that needs to happen as a matter of urgency is early warning systems for flood prevention in Ireland. Someone has to take the responsibility here. There will be a battle then around the mitigation of flood risk as to whether it is coastal or whether it relates to river flooding and whether it is the OPW or it is not. What we saw happen this week has done damage that is in the high tens of millions of euro in Midleton alone. In other areas, that damage that has been done to road infrastructure is in the tens of millions of euro.

It is most certainly over €100 million in terms of damage to homes, businesses and road and critical infrastructure in that community. We need to see a proper system put in place for flood warnings in the future. If these events are going to become more common, we are very poorly equipped to deal with them. Unfortunately, it overwhelms local authorities when it does happen. Could Mr. Doyle take this up with his Department and work with others on it?

Mr. Graham Doyle

There is the flood defences piece on which the OPW works. Met Éireann is now taking on the flood forecasting system, putting in place a professional approach to that and applying international best practice to it. In this case, information was given at local government level in terms of areas of vulnerability due to-----

Deputy James O'Connor

On this occasion, Met Éireann got it very wrong. We got an orange weather warning.

Mr. Graham Doyle

When a red weather warning issued, it is issued over a very wide area. It shuts down school transport-----

Deputy James O'Connor

I understand what a red weather warning does but the situation did merit it.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Or an orange warning.

Deputy James O'Connor

Did it merit the situation? Did it merit it? It is a miracle nobody is dead.

Mr. Graham Doyle

With regard to localised events, which is always said when these warnings are issued, localised information is given for specific local areas and that was done in this case.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority has appointed an inspector to the Peter McVerry Trust, which is citing cashflow pressures. I will list a number of questions to which I would like Mr. Doyle to respond to the committee in writing because I accept that is probably is not something he is prepared for. When and how the Minister discover the problem with the Peter McVerry Trust finances? What financial controls were in place in the housing body? What oversight did the Department have relating to expenditures of housing associations? Can Mr. Doyle clarify if donations and Government grants were paid into the same bank account? Are any of the companies trading within the Peter McVerry Trust insolvent? Can Mr. Doyle outline the tender process pursued relating to expenditure? At this stage, what financial exposure is emerging from the housing body to the Department? Will the regulator's report be made available to the Committee of Public Accounts and when will that happen? Has Mr. Doyle any difficulty with those questions?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Absolutely not. We will respond quickly to those questions.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is very disturbing. I assume there will be significant fallout from it but it brings back to what Deputy McAuliffe spoke about and Circular 13/2014, which essentially sets out the public financial management principles, procedures and reporting requirements to be followed by grantors and grantees for Exchequer grant funding. Section 3 of the circular sets out certain requirements for the grantors of Exchequer grant funding while section 5 sets out obligations that the recipients of Exchequer funding are required to comply with.

Earlier, Mr. Doyle spoke about transparency. However, in December 2020, the Department sought a derogation, which it did not receive. At the same time, it issued a circular to local authorities permitting them to omit the disclosures required under the circular from their annual financial statements. Can Mr. Doyle tell the committee why the Department does not require local authorities to report on the sources of grant funding in light of what we have just discussed about transparency and accountability? How did the Department come to this conclusion?

Mr. Graham Doyle

This goes back to 2018. At that time, there were over 500 individual grant lines and payment categories identified across various Departments. A figure of almost €4 billion in expenditure was being discussed. The concern about it at the time was that if you tried to describe over 500 lines and categories of expenditure, you would lose the whole intent of including the information given the sheer volume of data that would be produced. It would also mean very different chartered accounts for the local authorities under their annual financial statements. All of that information on those individual grants is available and can be audited and followed but my understanding is that the decision was not to attempt to do that in the chartered accounts.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How come everybody else complies with it?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is just not of that scale and volume. It is my understanding that-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is it Mr. Doyle's belief that they should not have to account for the €4 billion because it is too much trouble?

Mr. Graham Doyle

No. Unquestionably, they have to account for it at the overall level and they also have to account for it individually. It is just that it does not go into the chartered accounts.

Deputy Verona Murphy

And it does not really get reported. The National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, would be what most people would regard as an ashtray on a motorbike. My views on bringing local authorities and their funding under the auspices of the Comptroller and Auditor General are well known. This matter highlights a reason why we should do so. I do not see how Mr. Doyle can justify the fact that the Department did not get the derogation, yet it issued a circular that told local authorities it was okay not to report it.

Mr. Graham Doyle

This goes back a number of years-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

I do not care how far it goes back. The bottom line is that Mr. Doyle spoke about transparency. This does not help the Department's case in that regard, and it does not help anybody to think that €4 billion should not be accounted for and that local authorities should be treated differently when it is being accounted for by everybody else. This is about grants. What is Mr. Doyle's opinion when local authorities do not turn up in the High Court and end up having to foot the bill for costs? They do not file a defence, a motion is brought by the other side to get them to file a defence and they have to pay the costs involved. Is that not public money? It comes out of the public purse.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is. I am not sure about the incidents referred to by the Deputy. If that has happened, however, the local authority is accountable for that and for its actions and the moneys it has spent with regard to that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

We have seen how that works. It is well documented as well so there really is no accountability. I do not think that in his position as Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Doyle should be giving them an out. A total of €6 billion of Exchequer funding is going through our local authorities. People want transparency but they get anything but and the organisation that is supposed to look after it under reports. I have never seen anything worthwhile in comparison to what we get from the Comptroller and Auditor General at the Committee of Public Accounts. As Secretary General, Mr. Doyle should take that on board. It is something the Department could strive to achieve as opposed to giving them less.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Comptroller and Auditor General has made some recommendations relating to the accounts of local authorities and we have already incorporated-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Could Mr. Doyle elaborate on that? How does the Department guarantee accountability and management in that regard if it has given them an out?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is not to give them an out because all of these things still have to be reported on and they have to be capable of being followed in an audit trail. If the Deputy is asking me the wider question-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

The audit trail we are talking about in this instance is NOAC-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Local Government Audit Service will audit grant funding coming from all sources. As one of the funders of local authorities and a substantial funder, we have very clear processes and procedures about the drawdown of grant funding that must be followed so we will interrogate that as a Department as will the Local Government Audit Service and NOAC will report on it at a wider level. There are audit committees and there are internal audit functions-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

We were here last year where we showed up several discrepancies that got through that system.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are caught by the system. I presume the Deputy is referring to the "Prime Time" programme. We spoke about that here on a previous occasion. The fact of the matter was that most of those issues had actually been raised by the Local Government Audit Service.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What was done about it?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Those issues have to be followed up on.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I asked what the service did about them.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It reported them to the councils. The executive is answerable to the council and those issues have to be followed up on.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The public will know it all ended up in a big fat zero. That is why we need more accountability and for this to come under the auspices of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Mr. Doyle could go on for the next two minutes but nothing happened and the public will make up their own minds about that.

I will move on to planning. What is happening with An Bord Pleanála and planning is mind-boggling. Does Mr. Hogan agree? The delays are inexplicable at this stage, are they not?

Mr. Paul Hogan

We have turned a corner with regard to the resourcing of An Bord Pleanála and that improvement continues. The number of decisions issued in September was 50% more than the number issued in September of last year. Since April, we have had 15 board members in place.

Deputy Verona Murphy

To be fair, that does not warrant a clap on the back because what happened the year before was unprecedented and no decisions were being made. How long should it take to decide on a one-off housing appeal?

Mr. Paul Hogan

As things stand, the statutory objective period is 18 weeks with An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How can Mr. Hogan justify 18 weeks multiplied by three?

Mr. Paul Hogan

We are not justifying it. We are reforming the organisation through-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

It is making people homeless. I know of people who have been given their notice. They have applied for planning permission and expected to have no issue. They probably will not have an issue but are now homeless while waiting for a decision from An Bord Pleanála.

Mr. Paul Hogan

The new planning and development Bill will introduce statutory timelines for An Bord Pleanála. On the enactment of the Bill, it will be necessary for An Bord Pleanála to operate like a local authority with regard to how it issues decisions. It will respect the differing complexity of planning decisions. A planning decision on a one-off house will clearly not be among the most complicated and should be dealt with within 18 weeks. Something more-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Despite having sent numerous emails, I keep getting the same response, which is that the board is looking at it but does not know how much longer the decision will take. Is that not ridiculous?

Mr. Paul Hogan

The organisation is working through the backlog that has resulted from the events of the latter end of last year. Improvements are being made every month in that regard. The board is reporting every month.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is the board short-staffed?

Mr. Paul Hogan

The staffing allocation has been agreed. The organisation is in the process of adding those additional sanctioned posts and is roughly one third of the way through that. It takes time to recruit people for that type of organisation.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I will come back in.

An Cathaoirleach

I will come in on the issue of retrofits, if I may. I have raised with Mr. Doyle a number of times the need for deep retrofits, including external wraps, on old local authority houses. Such retrofits are more difficult. In those old estates, No. 30 may be local authority-owned while No. 31 is privately owned, which causes difficulties. I acknowledge the progress on that. Local authorities have certainly got at it, at least in my neck of the woods. In one estate, O'Moore Place in Portlaoise, external wraps have been installed and heat pumps fitted. The results have been good despite the difficulties. I acknowledge the work that is being done. I hope it can be accelerated to meet climate targets and also to address fuel poverty.

On housing output, the underspend and affordable housing units, where people can borrow from a bank and raise €220,000 or €230,000 for a house priced at, for example, €300,000, the scheme will step in and provide a top-up on a shared equity model, with a charge being placed on the property. That charge then becomes payable at a later date. Buyers have up to six years to pay off the State's contribution before a charge applies. Nevertheless, buyers will be an extra €60,000 or €70,000 in debt on such a house. It came as a revelation to me that, with units delivered now being counted, only 101 units were delivered by local authorities through this scheme in the first six months of the year, along with 22 cost-rental units. I was not aware of that and many others, including many public representatives, will be surprised to hear it. Politically, there is a big drive on with regard to the need for cost-rental properties. Will Mr. Doyle briefly explain how we are going to reach 5,500? In reality, will 5,000 of these units fall under the shared-equity scheme or some other scheme that does not actually represent affordable housing? My point is that the price of the house does not drop under the shared equity scheme. Along with many people who observe the housing market, I would argue that these types of schemes actually inflate prices. Will Mr. Doyle give me a rough breakdown of what number he envisages being built by local authorities and the number that will be cost-rental units? How will it be divided?

Mr. Graham Doyle

On cost-rental, obviously only a very small number were delivered and offered for cost rental in the first half of this year. There were approximately 470 last year. It should be recalled that all of these schemes are new. A multifaceted work programme was involved in setting up the schemes, passing the associated legislation and so on. They have all been put in place and we are now trying to turn to delivery.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not mean to be rude but will Mr. Graham tell me under what heading are those 5,500 projected to be delivered? I do not want to nail him down to targets because I know that things can change in a month or two but how does this target of 5,000 affordable units set by the Department and the Minister break down?

Mr. Graham Doyle

That target was 5,000 across a range of affordable housing paths. There are quite a number of affordable housing paths through different entities. It was an overall target and it was always envisaged that the shared equity piece would form a significant element while we also tried to grow the cost-rental and affordable purchase elements with local authorities.

An Cathaoirleach

Is it the case that the majority of the 5,000 will be delivered through shared equity?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It will probably be about half. We have never gone out with actual-----

An Cathaoirleach

Would it be possible to give the committee a note with some information on the breakdown as to what has been delivered and through which paths for the first nine months or three quarters of this year?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have found the shared equity project to be very popular. There are about 2,500 approvals under that scheme and, to date, 750 people have actually drawn down the funding and purchased a home. There will be hundreds more in the coming months. That scheme has been very popular. With regard to driving the cost-rental piece through local authorities, approved housing bodies, AHBs, and the Land Development Agency, these are schemes from scratch. They started out very well but were strongly affected by construction inflation and interest rate changes because these changed a lot of the financial modelling. We have gone back to those schemes and adjusted them. For example, the cost-rental equity loan we run with AHBs was very popular when introduced. We had to change that from a 30% loan to a 55% loan. We have gone back and worked with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to make those changes to try to get those projects back on track.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a target of 9,000 social housing units. According to the information we have received from the Department, the overall output was 7,234.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes. That is on the build piece.

An Cathaoirleach

We constantly hear that local authorities provided 7,500 new builds last year but the figures the Department gave us following our last engagement in this committee show that local authorities using contractors, which is fine, built 1,666.

Mr. Graham Doyle

That is in terms of their own projects versus-----

An Cathaoirleach

Riddle me this; while I do not want to go back to the 1970s, there was less mechanisation at that time and, in many ways, it was harder to get things done. Despite that, we were constructing a number in the region of 7,500 or 8,000 a year. In a period of great housing demand, what has happened that has resulted in local authorities only being able to construct less than a quarter of what they constructed in the 1970s?

Why is that the case in a year when there was a large budget and a large underspend?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Regarding the 7,500 units, there are lots of different ways that they were delivered. I am not going to go through them.

An Cathaoirleach

Just one question: what does "LAPV" mean?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It means "local authority, Part V".

An Cathaoirleach

What is happening regarding the construction? Why are we building less than one quarter of what we were able to do 40 or 50 years ago?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will answer that after making a very quick point. Where we talk about turnkey construction, it is not the case that local authorities or AHBs are buying up units that would have been delivered and would have been for sale on the market. Most of that is where a local authority does not have land, but it can engage with the developer, get the project off the ground, get it delivered and get a family into it

An Cathaoirleach

I understand and I accept that.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Regarding their own projects coming forward, there has been a huge reliance on the turnkey model in recent years and a reliance on AHBs. They are trying to build back up their capacity and we are trying to help them to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

I have these figures since the last time you appeared before the committee. I thank you for sending them to us. I have been looking at these figures over the last eight months and what I am trying to get at is the reason the capacity of local authorities to build houses has been reduced to 20% or 25% of what it was 50 years ago.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The capacity was effectively eliminated after the financial crash. Building it back up and building pipelines and projects and expertise in a local authorities, all of which we have been trying to work with them on-----

An Cathaoirleach

As I said before, I am not making the argument for 1930s-type housing, or 1970s-type housing for that matter. The reason they were able to build them back then was that they had a number of different plans for different housing needs; for example, one-, two-, three- or four-bedroom houses; single-storey or two-storey houses; or high- or low-density developments. I know what you are going to tell me. You are going to tell me that you have a framework. I know all of that. I welcome the fact that you have a framework for internal design and for some other standards, but why can we not use the same plan in Donegal and Wexford, for example? We did so before. That is the only way we can produce houses. People who are in the business have told me this. That is the only way we can do it on scale-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

To go back to the question on the 1970s-----

An Cathaoirleach

-----instead of sheets of paper going back and forward between the 31 local authorities.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are trying to cut out as much of that as possible.

An Cathaoirleach

I know you are but I am trying to get this point across and it is very frustrating. When you are starting with a blank canvas on every scheme, how can you stop that? You cannot stop it. You have to get away from starting with a blank canvas. The only blank canvas should be for the site layout and design. For the units, there is nothing wrong with using a standard design. All the private builders used them in the 1970s and they are still using them. I see houses similar to the one I live in built by private housing contractors. I can see them around the country, almost identical. They are the same type of house.

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Cathaoirleach has asked me about this so many times. I do not think that I have managed to get the point across that we are not doing that anymore. We are not starting with blank canvases. We now have a manual of designs. We are mandating local authorities to do it.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are forcing them to do it, in many cases

An Cathaoirleach

I want you to tell me why, as Secretary General of the Department, you are not insisting on being able to use exactly the same plan. I know you are using similar designs, similar standards and similar internal layout. I know all of that, but the same plan not being used from one county to another is a problem in terms of mass production. We need to mass-produce. I am sure that people in Kerry who want to buy an affordable house or live in social housing would not object to living in the same type of house as a person in Donegal.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We now have the modern methods of construction roadmap to allow standardisation to feed in to houses being constructed off-site. This is much easier for local authority social housing purposes.

I want to come back to the Cathaoirleach's original question and address one of the key points here. If we give a local authority a large greenfield site that extends as far as the eye can see and instruct the local authority to construct 9,000 social housing units, that is no problem. It can be done, but it will bring up all kinds of issues that nobody wants to deal with. It is an extreme example but it illustrates my point.

An Cathaoirleach

In a small town like Mountrath in County Laois, there is nothing wrong with providing ten or 20 houses. I am not making the argument for vast estates. There is nothing wrong with those ten or 20 houses being the same as houses in Bundoran or Ballyhaunis.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I was going back to the original question about local authorities. In the 1970s, very large social housing estates were built. That is not what is being done now. That is the answer to the original question.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, we need a social housing mix

Mr. Graham Doyle

When it comes to providing houses-----

An Cathaoirleach

That does not interfere with what I am trying to get at

Mr. Graham Doyle

No, it does not. I accept that. However, now we are talking about lots of smaller sites and trying to fit them into communities. We have mandated the design of the house, not how it looks on the outside. That has hugely cut down on processing times-----

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome that

Mr. Graham Doyle

-----on red tape and the issue of how long it takes to approve something. If it is in line with our standardised designs, it now gets approved much more quickly and it is less costly. All of these are things the Department has done relatively recently.

An Cathaoirleach

Capacity is being built up and local authorities have been given some extra staff. With this being the case, they now have the capacity to build a lot more than they are building at present. I want you to take that on board.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I have a note in front of me that I would love to read, but I suspect the Cathaoirleach will not give me the time to do so. It outlines all the changes we have made to try to enable local authorities to do more. I would be very happy to write to the Cathaoirleach on the matter.

An Cathaoirleach

Please do. If we can go further in terms of design and using what is good and what works, let us keep doing so. That is all I ask. I call Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Alan Dillon

My apologies for being delayed getting here. We have brought up the issue of the rural water programme numerous times. When will the new framework for the multiannual rural water programme be published?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is to be published before the end of this year. Is that correct, Mr. Towey?

Mr. Fintan Towey

Yes, we have gone through an extensive review process and engagement with local authorities. The new programme will be announced in the coming weeks.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Why has it been delayed for so long?

Mr. Fintan Towey

The objective here is to ensure the ultimate users of the schemes through the group water schemes have good quality water. In order to ensure that, we want to be certain that the procedures through which the group schemes can apply are clear and that we provide enough direction on what needs to be done in order to access the capital funding.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The feedback from local authorities is that they are crying out to submit bids under the different measures. We had the previous one from 2019 to 2021 and we have no subsequent scheme accepting bids at present. I know of numerous towns and villages in north Mayo that are crying out for access to public water. What level of expenditure will be allocated to the future framework?

Mr. Graham Doyle

In 2019, we had €47 million for the rural water programme. It is €68 million in the current year. On the capital side, the available funding has almost doubled. Under the previous programme, there were approximately 700 applications. They have been continuing in terms of trying to get through as many of those projects as possible. The funding has been expanded significantly to launch the new programme, and thereby at least allow new applications be made, but there is still a substantial way to go. I suspect there will be an overlap with the existing programme. However, that has not stopped those projects that are on hand being run through the programme.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I want to move on to the famous Derrybrien wind farm.

The total amount paid in respect of the EU judgment stands at €17 million. Can I ask Mr. Doyle for an update on this matter and how his Department is resolving it?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The matter is now closed. The last EU fine was paid in March 2023. It was €1.2 million. The retrospective substitute consent issue that was introduced into legislation in 2010 was where that particular wind farm should have required an environmental impact assessment, EIA, when it was originally permitted. We have now integrated the whole EIA issue, the habitats and birds directives, much more into the planning Act and into the regulations around that. We have also issued enhanced guidance with regard to EIAs and the need for greater awareness and compliance around it to try to eliminate a situation like that happening again. Once the substitute consent issue was dealt with and once the wind farm was essentially decommissioned, we got to the end of the case with the Commission. The last fine was in March and, as I said, we have taken some measures to make sure the State does not end up in that space again.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Moving on to the Housing Commission, has it reviewed its future housing targets?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I understand it will report around its views on the targets.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the timeline associated with that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Its report on that will be next year. We are in the process of looking at the housing targets ourselves. We have started the process with the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, with regard to movements in population and the latest statistics that are out from Central Statistics Office, CSO. All of this will also feed into the national planning framework and the revision to that, which we concluded in April.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How does the Department then adapt and respond to the unexpected changes? We see that there is huge regional imbalance in the delivery of housing in some areas. What type of specific strategies is the Department intending to implement to address this?

Mr. Graham Doyle

When it comes to developing housing or any infrastructure, it will ultimately take its lead from the national planning framework in trying to create that housing infrastructure - if we are being specific about housing - in accordance with the principles that are outlined in that. There is a lot of change that continues to take place in Ireland. This is probably a good time to update the national planning framework. Nobody expects anything other than housing targets increasing as a consequence, but there are a lot of figures out there and they are all based on a lot of different assumptions around population, house size, immigration, etc. Different sets of assumptions generate different levels of targets.

Everyone keeps referring to the 33,000. In fact, that was an average over ten years. We hope the 33,000 is reached quite early in that ten-year cycle. By the end of Housing for All, that ten-year programme, the target is actually in excess of 40,000. There is a lot of talk about targets. The truth of the matter is the State has to try and deliver as much housing as it possibly can and grow the capacity to do that over the next number of years.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With regard to the capital that has been assigned to deliver on the housing targets, what was the underspend for last year?

Mr. Graham Doyle

On housing, the underspend was €480 million.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the Department currently tracking for 2023?

Mr. Graham Doyle

At this stage of the year, we have spent about 50% more capital than we had at this time last year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the figure associated with that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am sorry. I have the percentage but I do not have the figure in my head.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Has someone got the figure?

Ms Áine Stapleton

We are about €350 million ahead on capital spending under the A programme at this point, and about €500 million ahead on the housing programme spend overall, capital and current, comparing this year with last year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does that include the carryover of the €480 million?

Ms Áine Stapleton

That includes the carryover, yes.

Mr. Graham Doyle

That gets spent first, essentially. That is the first call.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay. With regard to the delivery of housing, what is the expected number of new builds for 2023? What is the Department projecting?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We had this discussion a little bit earlier. We do not give a projection for the end of the year. We try and bring in as many houses ahead of that 31 December deadline as can be done.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Break it down per scheme.

Mr. Graham Doyle

There are many schemes but if we are talking about social housing overall, Ms Stapleton may have a figure for the amount of social houses on site at the moment, and we would hope to bring in quite a number of those before the year end.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can Ms Stapleton provide that figure?

Ms Áine Stapleton

We have a pipeline of more than 22,000 altogether, between those on site and those at some stage of the approvals process. At the end of quarter 2, there were more than 9,000 units on site. I do not have the figure for the end of quarter 3 yet but we would expect to be adding to that. We have a very strong pipeline for quarter 4. It is similar to the pattern of last year, where a very significant element of our overall housing delivery came through in quarter 4. We are seeing a very similar trend this year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

On the affordable housing targets, has the Department issued a circular to local authorities to try to achieve an acceptable target within every county or local authority area that requires an affordable housing scheme?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will bring Ms Timmons in on that in a second. We have the housing delivery plans that we require the local authorities to put in place.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Which are social.

Mr. Graham Doyle

That is a recent innovation. It has made a significant difference in providing the focus on that. With regard to the targeting within individual local authorities, Ms Timmons might comment.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I might rephrase it for Ms Timmons. Will the Department set affordable housing targets for each local authority?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The plan at the moment is that we have decided there will have to be a revised affordable housing strategy arising out of the work being done on the national planning framework, NPF and the revision of the housing need and demand assessment, HNDA. That is going to be coming forward next year. We will be looking at that specific issue.

Deputy Alan Dillon

When next year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

That will be done by quarter 3 next year. That will be specifically looking at the strategy across all. We have already issued a circular that says that any county that wishes to apply for funding under the affordable housing fund can do so, and we have seen that counties like Mayo and Wexford have applied for funding and have been successful in getting funding for affordable housing schemes. I am happy to say we are already doing it in many ways, but what the Deputy is talking about is actually setting targets, and yes, we are considering that.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Which we have done for how many local authorities?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We have done it for 18 but it is the question of whether we will expand it out.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the witnesses. In that context, there were five local authorities last year that never built one house. Galway City Council and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Kildare, Longford and Louth county councils never built a single house. That is according to the information the Department gave us. There is something wrong when that is not happening.

Mr. Graham Doyle

In some cases there is some substantial delivery due now, but yes, I accept that and noticed that myself.

An Cathaoirleach

Will that be corrected this year?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Possibly not in every single case but certainly in the bigger local authorities the Chair has mentioned.

An Cathaoirleach

There is something seriously wrong there, with big local authorities like Kildare County Council not having one house built at local authority level in the middle of a housing crisis.

Mr. Graham Doyle

On their own schemes, is what the Chair means.

An Cathaoirleach

On their own schemes, I grant that. Yet we have this pent-up bundle of money in the region of a €1.5 billion underspend over a three- or four-year period. Deputy Murphy has five minutes.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

They long-leased rather than built, which is the very point I have been making.

I want to go back to the local government issue because it drives me nuts. A total of 35% of the population increase between 2016 and 2022 happened in five local authority areas. They would have been the substantial ones: Dublin City Council and Fingal, South Dublin, Kildare and Meath county councils. This Local Government Fund actually rewards geography as opposed to population increase.

I am looking at the Department's briefing document.

Nowhere in the briefing document was it calculated about there being a service deficit. Nowhere was it calculated on the basis of these new allocations that there was a new needs consideration in relation to when an area is being grown the services have to be grown with it. That was not considered at all. Geography was considered and compliance with national policies and a number of other things were considered. The complaint we hear from areas that are growing is that they get the housing development - and obviously not enough of it - but they do not get anything else with it. If we are to grow the country in a sustainable way, it will be through higher densities in urban areas but that policy is reflected nowhere in the briefing document the way these baselines have been worked out.

I want to come back to the figures and to reinforce the point I made earlier. It states in the briefing document that all of the equalisation funding is being met by the Exchequer this year at a cost of €118 million. Then the document states that this move is Exchequer cost neutral as the increase in equalisation funding required is offset by the increased requirement to self-fund. In other words, if they get more it has to be spent in a particular way and spent specifically on roads and on housing. It is not the discretionary spend that the impression is given that is it supposed to be. I am taking this from the witnesses' own documentation.

In some areas it will be new money but the figures given really reinforce the point of it not being new money for many of the local authority areas. It certainly is not for areas that are described as self-funded. In other words, once they go above a certain threshold, they have to self-fund housing and roads that would otherwise be grant-aided through Exchequer funding. I want to reinforce those points.

Will this now be the permanent method of funding for the future? If so, where are local authorities supposed to find the funding for new services because there is nowhere in this that there is a calculation for that?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I will bring Ms Quinn in on the question about the future and the wider implications. In terms of growing counties, obviously there is the Government sourced grant funding for housing, roads, and a variety of other things, that must be targeted in areas of population growth. There are other services that are provided by the Government in the education space, etc., that again have to target the areas of population growth.

In terms of this particular piece there is the overall level of funding available and then there is how it gets divided out and those changes that were made recently. We have been clear in the document the Deputy has read back-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Can I just ask if this is the framework for the future?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Will Ms Quinn answer this question because I know she has-----

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I just want a "Yes" or "No" answer because I have very little time.

Ms Fiona Quinn

This framework in terms of the model for LPT distribution will be in place until after the next census. The group recommended it be reviewed. Again, it comes back to decisions being made. This group, which was made up of local councillors and staff from the local government sector, was accepted in full by the Minister who sought the allocation model. It considered the whole range. The Deputy is right that when it looked at population and compared increases in population to the actual fixed population figure reported in the census, the allocation was not impacted by using one or the other, it was the same impact. There was a correlation between population figures and the change of population. On the Deputy's question around whether it is fixed, it will be now reviewed every time there is a census.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Any local authority that is thinking of growing its populations should look at this and ask, "Would we be mad?" because they will get nothing for it.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, it will be after the next census.

Ms Fiona Quinn

Yes, the recommendation was every time there is a census and that was accepted.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I want to make the specific request, coming back to my earlier contribution, that the committee be provided with a breakdown of social housing by energy efficiency, building energy rating, BER, so that it has a clear idea of that.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Any information we have we will get for the Deputy.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Insofar as it is available. We would also like to be able to quantify what level of information is not available so that we understand, God help us, the known knowns and the unknown knowns or whatever that phrase is.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, absolutely.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Ideally by local authority area as well, if possible, so we know where we should be concentrating resources. Similarly, I would like information on the rate of testing of private septic tanks. We have a mixture of figures on that and I would like to know that by overall number per annum and by percentage. Could we have that by local authority area as well?

I listened with interest to Mr. Doyle's answer to Deputy O'Connor's questions. Midleton in his constituency and places in my constituency, such as Tallow and Clashmore, were very much affected by the flooding that happened recently. I accept that Met Éireann did what I believe was a good job within the parameters it is currently given. The red weather warning was not appropriate in that scenario because that has specific implications. However, as I understand it, there is a delay in regard to the expenditure because this is directly under Mr. Doyle's Department and Met Éireann is funded under programme E. There was an expenditure of €1.254 million due to delays in the progression of projects, including a flood forecasting database. This is the specific type of forecasting we need. It is different from the countywide red weather warning, orange warning or whatever. It is specifically around flood forecasting. Why has that been delayed?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Met Éireann is taking over from the existing service that is provided under the Office of Public Works, OPW. It is trying to go further with the forecasting piece. I believe some of the delays were associated with trying to recruit specialist expertise in terms of radar systems, a flood forecasting database, a coastal model review, tide gauge, and all of these types of issues that require that expertise.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Is staffing the delay?

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is my understanding that staffing is why it has taken a little longer. What has been done is being done to a very professional standard. Met Éireann does its work to a very professional standard and is very meticulous about it and is working now to complete that project.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am assuming that, considering the recent flooding events, this has become a priority.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I do not think it affected it. The information that was given, was given in this case. I do not think it affected those recent events but having absolute state-of-the-art service for the future is the objective.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

What is the timeline for the completion of that piece of work? Have those recruitment issues been solved? Are people in place? Is the work ongoing?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We have written to OPW to ask it to accept that we are taking over through Met Éireann. I am trying to remember the timeline. I think there is a date close to the end of the year but it is just escaping me at the moment.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Will Mr. Doyle provide that to the committee because it is particularly pertinent at the minute?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

In terms of active travel spend, this gets channelled through the National Transport Authority, NTA, but a lot of it gets spent through our local authorities. I have a concern that a lot of money has been spent on the design stage and particularly the outsourcing of the design stage to consultancies. Does Mr. Doyle have an analysis of how much money is being spent on the design stage and how much of it is turning into literally concrete measures on our roads, so that we are making it safer for people to walk and cycle?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The Deputy would have to put that question to the Department of Transport but I am sure that information will be provided.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Local authorities are doing an awful lot of this work during their Part 8s or the section 38s.

Mr. Graham Doyle

They are doing it on behalf of the Department of Transport. Local authorities work with a whole range of Government Departments. We have a particular function as regards local government but when it comes to a transport spend, for example, they spend on behalf of the Department of Transport.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I want to come back to the flip side of the coin I spoke about earlier in terms of septic tanks. I have a figure around small private supply. Leaving aside the group water schemes, things Deputy Dillon spoke about and the bigger infrastructural pieces, for small private supplies, which is the private well, I have a figure of 1,700 of these being registered with local authorities. When I look at that figure, I would suggest that it is a drop in the ocean.

Do we have any sense of what percentage of the actual number of private wells out there that is? Just as there is a testing issue around septic tank access, similarly-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine; the witnesses might address the question.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is not a question for Irish Water necessarily, Chair, it is for us and Mr. Towey might address it. If we do not have that information, we can try to get it.

Mr. Fintan Towey

Approximately 10% of households depend on private wells. The small private supplies that are referenced there are also private wells, but where they are used in a setting where there is public consumption, be that either through public bodies such as a school or business, for example, a restaurant or pub that draws on a private well and uses that water, there is a requirement to register. Some 1,700 are registered. The view has been expressed that it is not known-----

An Cathaoirleach

The question was about the percentage.

Mr. Fintan Towey

It is not known how many are unregistered. I would not be willing to hazard a guess.

An Cathaoirleach

Would 1,700 be a small fraction of it? That is what the Deputy is worried about.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I am sorry; Mr. Towey gave me a percentage. We are mixing apples and oranges again in terms of the measures. Mr. Towey gave me a figure on how many households are dependent on a well. What was that figure again?

Mr. Fintan Towey

It is 10% of households.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Okay. I have 1,700 as an absolute figure. How many households does that translate to?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

From another report that we did this year, there are approximately 2.1 million households in the country and, therefore, 10% of that would obviously be 210,000.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The figure is 210,000 from which we have 1,700 of these wells.

An Cathaoirleach

Small private supplies are a different thing. I think that is where the confusion is here.

Mr. Fintan Towey

I will clarify that there is a difference here. Private wells do not need to be registered. Because the water from a household well is used for the household, that is the responsibility of the householder. The private supplies that have to be registered are ones where there is a supply to members of the public, such as a school or business.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Does that essentially mean we have no picture at all in terms of the water quality of a lot of private wells?

Mr. Fintan Towey

Does the Deputy mean household wells?

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Household wells.

Mr. Fintan Towey

Household wells are the responsibility of the householder.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I call Deputy Brady.

Deputy John Brady

I have a couple of questions for Uisce Éireann, or Irish Water as it was previously known up until the end of last year. First, how much has it cost to rebrand from Irish Water to Uisce Éireann to date?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

The new name came from the legislation change-----

Deputy John Brady

I am just asking how much it has cost.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

I am leading into that. The new name came from the Department. We are now Uisce Éireann. The Irish Water name does not appear in legislation anywhere. We looked at our own existing brand and felt there could be a challenge around-----

Deputy John Brady

I am just conscious of the time. I am looking for specific figures.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

The cost, including design, roll-out, rebranding and all that kind of stuff, is approximately €145,000.

Deputy John Brady

It is €145,000. What is the projected cost? Is that the total cost?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

That is pretty much the total cost. That would not include livery on vans, but the vans are not liveried at the moment anyway. Most of them have the county council livery. That would be something we will change over time as the vans come in for refurbishment.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. Of that, how much was spent on consultants?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

I think approximately €50,000 or €60,000 was spent on consultants.

Deputy John Brady

It cost €50,000 or €60,000 to change from Irish water to Uisce Éireann. It cost €50,000-odd to change from English to Irish.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

It is significant work. There is design work, branding, colours - there is a fair bit in it.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, can I just-----

Mr. Niall Gleeson

On the branding, Irish Water was an entity and the new Uisce Éireann is a brand new entity that incorporates the Irish Water people-----

Deputy John Brady

Okay, I get that.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

-----and the local authority staff. There is, therefore, a good reason behind the rebranding.

Deputy John Brady

I was just looking for the figures there. How many boil water notices were issued last year?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

Does Mr. Laffey have that figure offhand?

Mr. Sean Laffey

I do not have it offhand. We can get it.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

It varies quite a lot because some of them are quite short-term and may not-----

Deputy John Brady

Okay. Do we have a figure for how many are currently in place?

Mr. Sean Laffey

I do not have that figure. I will get that figure for the Deputy.

Mr. Niall Gleeson

There are around 1,600 people on boiled water notices.

Deputy John Brady

Currently?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

The Whitegate incident may have increased that value. I will get those figures. We can come back to the Deputy with the details.

Deputy John Brady

Is there one common denominator affecting them all? It is probably a variety, is it?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

They vary. For some of them, we might have had a very heavy weather event that could have impacted the plant and that would result in a short-term notice. Some have issues, like Whitegate, which is a perennial problem.

Deputy John Brady

Could we get those figures and the reason why the boiled water notice was issued?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

We can get the Deputy those figures.

Mr. Sean Laffey

The standards we apply now, which have been agreed with the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, are much tighter than they were in the past. The vast majority of boil water notices are very much precautionary in nature.

Deputy John Brady

In terms of the scheme for replacing lead pipes, it was reported that there are up to 180,000 homes with lead pipes. For how many properties does Uisce Éireann have responsibility? Obviously, private residents have a responsibility. For how many of those households does Irish Water have responsibility?

Mr. Sean Laffey

We estimate that there are 180,000 properties supplied by Uisce Éireann that have a lead connection. Therefore, essentially, we are responsible. I will say upfront that there are no lead public mains in the system at all. We have clarified that. We are responsible for the connection from the pipe in the road to the boundary of the customers' property and then they are responsible from the boundary of the property into their tap. To date, we have replaced roughly 60,000 lead connections. Of the remaining 120,000 customers or households we serve, we have actually installed orthophosphate dosing systems at our water treatment plants. What that does over the course of six to eight months is coat the inside of the lead pipe with a barrier.

Deputy John Brady

However, there is a plan to replace the-----

Mr. Sean Laffey

Correct.

Deputy John Brady

-----remaining 130,000.

Mr. Sean Laffey

It is 120,000.

Deputy John Brady

Is that due to be carried out by 2026 or is there a date planned?

Mr. Sean Laffey

It is a rolling programme. It will continue through review and control up to 2029 and probably beyond. However, the point I would like to make is that as long as the orthophosphate is in place, we actually have a very effective barrier to lead.

Deputy John Brady

There was criticism by the EPA, however, which estimated that it could take 24 years for Uisce Éireann to carry out the full replacement.

Mr. Sean Laffey

Correct.

Deputy John Brady

Would that be accurate?

Mr. Sean Laffey

The physical replacement is the ultimate solution to the problem. With the orthophosphate dosing in place, however, that solution is very effective.

Deputy John Brady

In terms of the €5,000 grant that is available for the homeowner or householder, how would Mr. Laffey see the uptake of that grant to date?

Mr. Sean Laffey

That grant is administered by the local authority. All I can say around that grant is that we have issued a guarantee to a householder that if he or she went for that grant and replaced the lead from the sink to the boundary, then we would be straight in to replace it from the boundary out to the pipe in the road.

Deputy John Brady

Do we have any figures? How many of those grants have been issued?

Mr. Sean Laffey

I would suggest that would probably be a matter for the Department.

Deputy John Brady

Okay. Do we have any idea how many grants have been issued?

Mr. Fintan Towey

We do have figures. We can come back to the Deputy with those.

Deputy John Brady

Mr. Towey might provide those figures and a county-by-county breakdown, if that is possible, since the conception of that grant.

Mr. Fintan Towey

Yes. The uptake of that scheme has been very low. There has been a very poor level of uptake really relevant to what is available. There is no possible-----

Deputy John Brady

Has every home that has lead pipes been contacted on an individual basis by the Department or is it reliant on national publicity?

Mr. Fintan Towey

We ran a campaign earlier this year to try to increase the level of awareness around the potential existence of lead pipes.

Deputy John Brady

It has been identified where all those homes are but there has been no attempt to contact-----

Mr. Fintan Towey

We have not identified where they are.

Deputy John Brady

Okay, well, I would suggest there is a failure then in terms of communicating if there is a low uptake, which certainly there is. We know where the homes are and they have been identified. I would, therefore, suggest a re-look at how that communication takes place.

An Cathaoirleach

The local authority could perhaps have a look.

Mr. Fintan Towey

Lead exists very often in the internal plumbing in houses. It was a plumbing material of choice until the 1970s. There are kind of residual elements of it but there is no public record of where the houses are so it does depend on householders.

Deputy John Brady

I would appreciate if we could get those figures of the grants that have been applied for.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I want to come back to Mr. Doyle. I just searched for the email. That planning appeal was on 18 September 2022. One person in An Bord Pleanála answered me five times with the same thing. The length of time people expect is 18 weeks. That is what is in the statute. How can Mr. Doyle explain a 13-month delay in the decision-making process? What role does he have to play in this?

I want to know how that is justifiable. How can the Secretary General sit there and tell me that regardless of resources that this is not an issue?

Mr. Graham Doyle

We are absolutely sure that it is an issue which is why we have been working with the board to provide essentially everything they have asked for in terms of additional resourcing has been-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Each time I was replied to by email I was told that it was being brought to the attention of the board. Mr. Hogan probably has something further to add.

Mr. Paul Hogan

Yes. The situation in terms of clearing the backlog is stronger than I characterised. I did check the figures. The figures for September are 150%, not 50%. Two and a half times what was being done last September has been done this September. Last year, on average, where they are at now is twice the level of output.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How many staff is the organisation short?

Mr. Paul Hogan

The sanction for An Bord Pleanála is to go to just over 300 staff and the number is around 240 at the moment.

Deputy Verona Murphy

How many staff work in the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR?

Mr. Paul Hogan

There is about 40.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Would those 40 staff be proficient in planning?

Mr. Paul Hogan

It is up to those people if they wish to apply for those posts.

Deputy Verona Murphy

That is not the context of my question. They clearly are. Would it not be a better policy, Mr. Doyle, to divert 40 staff from a regulatory post in respect of which next year we will clearly discuss nothing but the legal fees the regulator has entailed into An Bord Pleanála? We are in the worst crisis ever. I am quoting from a newspaper article in the Irish Independent in which Mr. Ian Lawlor, managing director with property lender, Lotus Investment Group, says there is “huge demand” for new developments coming to the market but developers are not able to complete projects because of planning delays. He continues:

Lengthy planning delays within our system are leading to a severe dearth of shovel-ready sites. As a result, builders, starved of sites, are bidding the site prices up, and this in turn is impacting viability, increasing risk, and negatively impacting delivery. Ultimately, the cost of all this is carried by the first-time buyer – if they can even find a home to purchase.

I think that is really damning, Mr. Hogan and Mr. Doyle. We know that there is a myriad of reasons for the housing crisis but primarily the situation is getting worse daily. There is a solution. Mr. Doyle, as Secretary General, should consider whether the 40 staff are required in the office of the regulator. It is probably unfortunate that we established the office at the very time we did because it probably will transpire that that had something to do with how the whole sector is over-regulated and we are not making headway. According to The Housing Commission, we need somewhere in the region of between 45,000 and 65,000 housing units per annum. The article also states that 50% of what has been built are apartments, not housing.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy, please give our guests time to respond.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We recognise planning as part of the issue around the overall housing qiestion, as the Deputy has said we have got the planning Bill, etc. Specifically on resourcing, we worked with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform from where An Bord Pleanála was, so just under 200 people to over 300 people, which is a 50% increase.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Doyle, please do not patronise me by repeating figures from Mr. Hogan.

Mr. Graham Doyle

I am not.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is it not a policy-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

If the Deputy wants me to answer her question about the OPR-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Can Mr. Doyle divert the 40 staff?

Mr. Graham Doyle

A piece of legislation was enacted by the Oireachtas, on foot of all the things that have happened in the planning in the past, to set up a planning regulator. It is not open to me say-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Mr. Doyle, you are the Secretary General.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, I am the Secretary General but it is not open to me to say-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

Is Mr. Doyle saying that he cannot put forward a proposal in his capacity as Secretary General? I mean a proposal to help this person not to be homeless because of a 14-month delay in planning and for the other number of people who are homeless - we have 12,500 homeless in addition to all those who are in direct provision and cannot get out of it. We are talking thousands of people and we are going nowhere. Is Mr. Doyle able, in his capacity as Secretary General, to put a proposal to the Minister to divert 40 people into planning and second them for the time being? These staff are not really doing a job that is required at this time in terms of housing. Is that not a proposal that the Secretary General can put forward?

An Cathaoirleach

I suggest Mr. Doyle responds briefly.

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is a view that has been put forward. Deputy Murphy has put a proposal to us but I do not believe it is open to me to make a decision like that.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am not asking the Secretary General to make a decision. Would he not put it as a proposal to the Minister to allow him to make a decision? Is it acceptable that somebody waits for 13 months on a decision that should take 18 weeks?

Mr. Graham Doyle

I cannot put a proposal to the Minister that says the Oireachtas set up a body and let us essentially eliminate it. That is not a proposal that a civil servant can put forward.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What is coming from that lack of a proposal is the fact that first-time buyers will no longer be able to afford-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

We do have a plan in relation to An Bord Pleanála. We are putting forward proposals in relation to An Bord Pleanála and we are providing resources into An Bord Pleanála.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Clearly not because it is a very slow process, according to Mr. Hogan. We are not able to recruit the number of staff required and this woman in Wexford has waited 13 months for a decision that should take 18 weeks. I cannot see how this woman could not sue the Department for dereliction of its duties for the cost she will incur to drive up the price of her house build in the period she has waited beyond 18 weeks. Does Mr. Doyle see there is a future prospect of people suing the Department and the planning authority because of delayed decisions? Is that beyond possibility? Maybe the Comptroller and Auditor General has an opinion.

An Cathaoirleach

I think all we want to hear is what is being done now to accelerate the decisions of An Bord Pleaná because we all know of cases in our constituencies that have been held up for years.

Mr. Paul Hogan

There are more people on the board than ever before. They are there not even six months and they have made a huge difference. The level of output is twice what it was, on average, last year.

Deputy Verona Murphy

To clarify, Mr. Hogan, regarding the level of output based on last year, were last year's figures acceptable?

Mr. Paul Hogan

So the slowdown occurred significantly in the last quarter of last year and that caused a backlog. That backlog is now being worked through at pace and at all levels-----

Deputy Verona Murphy

A slow pace.

Mr. Paul Hogan

-----from very significant, strategic infrastructure to major infrastructure schemes for Uisce Éireann, for example, and smaller scale developments also.

Deputy Verona Murphy

So it is a case of do not bother if you are building a one-off house.

Mr. Paul Hogan

No, not at all. There is a very conscious effort being made to address the large number of smaller scale developments.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I am not seeing the results of the conscious effort. Mr. Hogan has explained the delay of 13 months.

Mr. Paul Hogan

The level of output is significantly increased.

Deputy Verona Murphy

What can Mr. Hogan say to the woman who has waited 13 months?

An Cathaoirleach

To be honest, Deputy, I have given a full run.

Deputy Verona Murphy

Will Mr. Hogan address the 13-month delay after this meeting?

Mr. Paul Hogan

We cannot account for individual cases. That is not our role. It is not the role of the Minister. In the planning legislation, the Minister is precluded from getting involved in individual cases.

Deputy Verona Murphy

The Department is here for An Bord Pleanála.

Mr. Paul Hogan

I am here on behalf of the panning division of the Department that has a role in oversight.

An Cathaoirleach

To be helpful, and I understand that the Department cannot get involved in an individual case, but please convey to An Bord Pleanála the extreme frustration with the cases that are still being delayed a long time?

Mr. Paul Hogan

Yes, absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a small number of cases where individuals have waited well over a year. Please convey to An Bord Pleanála that this matter must be dealt with, as a matter of priority. I ask that because people are frustrated and there are human consequences. Please convey that to An Bord Pleanála. We understand that progress is being made but we need a step change and efforts must be ramped up.

Mr. Paul Hogan

That is agreed and understood, Chair. It is a message we have given on foot of our understanding of what is happening around the country and maybe the frustration that Deputy Murphy has expressed. That is a message we have been giving, as the capacity of the board has increased to address these things.

An Cathaoirleach

I spoke to representatives about the housing crisis and it would be great if the planning bottleneck could be addressed.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I want to focus my questions on Uisce Éireann. I want to ask Mr. Gleeson about his organisation's co-ordination with the EPA to address compliance issues. What systems are in place in order to meet previous infrastructural commitments for wastewater treatment? How is that co-ordinated with the EPA?

Mr. Niall Gleeson

It is a well organised system that is probably a lot driven by the EPA's priority action list, PAL,and remedial action list, RAL processes. My colleague, Mr. Laffey, will elaborate on that.

Mr. Sean Laffey

So the PAL switches wastewater treatment plants that they want us to focus on.

We hold very regular meetings on them with the EPA. Deputy Dillon knows from today's report that there is a lot of frustration in the EPA with the pace of delivery. We are pushing as hard as we can. There was an issue raised that we do not have plans. In some situations this is correct in so far as we know there are issues in particular plants but we have not yet decided what the solution is. For the EPA to accept that we have a plan, it wants to know what exactly we are going to do. Getting to a solution for a particular plant requires a large amount of study to make sure we land with the right solution. We have very good interaction.

The other thing to point out is that we have certificates of authorisation and discharge licences for all of our wastewater treatment plants. They tell us exactly what we are supposed to be doing.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How many enforcement actions have been taken that have led to improvements of delivery?

Mr. Sean Laffey

There are two types of enforcement action in general. We have approximately six or eight prosecutions a year. The EPA can also issue improvement notices, whereby it asks us what exactly we will do about a specific treatment plant.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With regard to the prosecutions, what was the cost to Uisce Éireann of resolving the enforcement actions?

Mr. Sean Laffey

The fines at court probably total less than €50,000. Once a prosecution is in place it prioritises a particular action for us to move on.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In terms of its compliance rating with the EPA regulations, what standards has Uisce Éireann set itself in this regard?

Mr. Sean Laffey

We want to be compliant at all times with our licences and authorisations. As I have said this morning, there are two levels. We have the urban wastewater treatment directive which is a general blanket for all treatment plants over 2,000 population equivalent and we also have our licences and certificates of authorisation.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Uisce Éireann have key performance indicators?

Mr. Sean Laffey

Absolutely yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is Uisce Éireann currently trending?

Mr. Sean Laffey

In terms of numbers, as I said this morning, 91% of our plants are compliant with the urban wastewater treatment directive. By volume this is approximately 40% of the sewage that we treat. Ringsend on any given day accounts for 40% to 45% of the volume of sewage that we treat. Ringsend, after an investment of approximately €550 million, will be compliant with the urban wastewater treatment directive again this year.

Deputy Alan Dillon

A treatment plant local to me in my constituency is Newport.

Mr. Sean Laffey

Yes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The community is justifiably aggrieved with regard to how Uisce Éireann has managed this project. There have been numerous commitments with regard to its delivery. A commitment was made that it would be completed in 2023. It was subsequently promised in 2025. Now there is a starting delay to 2026 for initiation, with completion projected for 2028. How can this happen with regard to commitments previously made? People will have to wait five years while raw sewage is introduced into the Clew Bay water system. It is completely unacceptable. How can we resolve this issue?

Mr. Sean Laffey

Raw sewage going anywhere is completely unacceptable. I certainly agree with this. Newport is a case in point. When we first examined Newport, we understood that the current outfall, which goes out into the bay, would be suitable for an enhanced plant. We then carried out studies on the receiving waters that I have mentioned. They showed the existing outfall was not adequate. It did not bring the discharge far enough out into the bay to ensure it did not have an impact. As a result, we have to do some surveys on the bed of the bay and for this we need a foreshore licence. This is causing the delay at present.

An Cathaoirleach

I want to come back to the issue of housing. I do not want to delay the meeting but we are trying to get all of the answers today. On the previous occasion on which Mr. Doyle was before the committee, I raised the issue of many approved housing body builds from the 1990s, which were 95% funded by the public, now coming out of their term of finance. In other words, the loan has been paid back over a 25- or 30-year period. There is a clatter of these. I have corresponded on this with Mr. Harrington, who is a principal officer in the Department.

Will the Department provide a written response to the committee on what will happen with these? Some of them seem to be operating as private housing. As I have said previously, social housing tenants who went into them at the time or people who have been housed in them since are now being treated as if they are private tenants. The system of allocation is not going through local authorities. Social housing is being let and we do not know on what basis. It is not being assessed by local authorities. Hello money of up to €10,000 is being charged on some of them. The rents are no longer differential as they would be understood to be with social housing. People are being told to apply for social housing so they can access the housing assistance payment or the rental accommodation scheme. The problem now is that taxpayers are subsidising the rent for homes that they built in the first place, and I can give examples of this. A working group is in place. Mr. Harrington replied to me about this. Will the Department come back to me on the up-to-date situation? There is an avalanche of these coming. What hold do the Department or local authorities have whereby these must continue to be treated as social housing? Is progress being made?

Mr. Graham Doyle

A lot of work and analysis has been done on this issue to see how it can be addressed when units become unencumbered as they come out of their loan term, particularly out of capital assistance leasing funding loans. Many of the houses the Cathaoirleach is referring to are probably from the old capital assistance scheme. There is a lot in the question; the Cathaoirleach suggests that we write to him and I am very happy to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

The crux of it is this. If the Department or a local authority does not have some legal grip on this housing it will be a free for all and allocations can be made to whomever people like. Hello money can be charged at whatever amount for tenants coming in. Rents can be set at market rates even though it is social housing. The people living in them will continue to be handed forms by private companies to apply for housing assistance payment or the rental accommodation scheme so they can receive a top-up. Taxpayers will be subsidising rent in a house which was built by taxpayers in the first place.

Mr. Graham Doyle

Just to give-----

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Doyle can come back to me. We want to know specifically what legal instrument and legal hold does the State have. Much of the housing built last year was done through approved housing bodies. I do not have a problem with them and there are some very good approved housing bodies, such as Clúid and Respond. A number of the houses built in an earlier phase are coming out of term and they are unencumbered. Will we face an avalanche in the coming years? Will there be a free for all?

Mr. Graham Doyle

To give the Cathaoirleach a little of assurance, he identified two particular incidents that are being looked into. It is not our belief this is happening on a wholesale basis. This is the first and most important thing to say. We were concerned about these issues. They are being looked at by the Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority. There is a wider issue about what happens when units become unencumbered.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Mr. Graham Doyle

A lot of thought and analysis has gone into how it can be dealt with in future. In many cases even when a unit becomes unencumbered it is still owned by an approved housing body with a particular purpose that is also a charity. The idea these units can go off into the private sector is not as concerning as the impression that may have been given previously.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not want to cut Mr. Doyle short but all of what can be done with the units is predicated on what legal hold the local authority and the Department, in other words the State, has. There is a pile of these units and I can see them in my orbit.

I have huge concerns that we will lose this housing stock.

Mr. Graham Doyle

We do not believe we will lose this housing stock. I will write to the committee. There is an awful lot in what the Cathaoirleach said. We are happy to write to him in relation to it.

An Cathaoirleach

Particularly the legal hold. I know there are different schemes such as the capital advance leasing facility, CALF, and the capital assistance scheme, CAS, but will Mr. Doyle write concerning the ones that have come in, are coming in and will come in over the next five or six years?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will Mr. Doyle write to the committee?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Yes, of course.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, it is for the committee. There is a particular scheme locally with which there is a peculiarity. The committee should get-----

Mr. Graham Doyle

It is a wider issue, it is not just that. We are happy to write to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

The last time the Department was at the committee, we raised the issue the ability of the National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office to monitor what is going on in the building industry. We are facing a huge bill with mica and we had a huge bill with pyrite. There have been cases like Priory Hall and other problems. The best way of solving a problem is to not create it. It was acknowledged the last time the Department was at the committee that there were issues with staffing at the National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office. It fits in under Dublin City Council but the Department oversees it, as I understand. There could be up to 13 counties with defective concrete blocks alone. I have a couple of questions. What extra staff have been provided to that office?

Mr. Graham Doyle

The director of that office was quoted in a newspaper at the time saying that staffing was not adequate. The Minister of State subsequently met the director and it was made clear that the issue was vacancies in the shared service unit. That was the first thing to be addressed. A recruitment process was put in place and I think a panel was put in place. There was a loss of another staff member. My understanding at this point is that job offers have been made and that a new vacancy is now going through the process.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Mr. Doyle come back to the committee with an update on that? How many fines has the office handed out since its inception? What is the value of those fines? How many business notice cessations were handed out in the past few years? How many product recalls have there been on foot of inspections by the office? The point I am getting at is that we cannot have another mica. We just cannot have it. Will Mr. Doyle come back to the committee with a reply to those questions?

Mr. Graham Doyle

Some of those are issued through local authorities rather than the office itself. We will try to get as much data as we can.

An Cathaoirleach

Will Uisce Éireann come back to the committee with a reply on the number of mains replacements that have taken place since 2014, when it became operational? What was the spend each year on mains replacements?

I have questions about two specific schemes. I refer to the taking in charge of estates put in place by developers. I will mention two particular ones in County Laois. There is a bit of head-scratching going on over them. One is the Limekiln estate in Clogh. It is a very small scheme of about 20 houses. It is a reed bed, I understand, which at the time was an environmentally friendly solution. As far as I am aware, there are still no great problems with it. It is working well but there is a block in that Uisce Éireann refuses to take it in charge. Perhaps there is a good reason for that. Will Uisce Éireann come back to the committee on that?

The other estate I would like to mention is Woodgrove, which is next door to me in Portlaoise. The local authority has spent substantial amounts of money upgrading it. It goes back to the time when I was a councillor. It was built about 25 years ago; certainly well over 20. Part of it was built 25 years ago. It needs to be taken in charge. If there is a problem with it, what is it? Water services engineers in the council who have now retired failed to get this over this line. Will Uisce Éireann come back to me on that matter, please?

That concludes the questioning. I thank the witnesses and the staff. I know that a few of the witnesses from the CRU got a flight this morning. I thank the Department, Uisce Éireann and the CRU for their work in preparing for today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending today and assisting the committee.

Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information required and carry out any agreed actions arising from this meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed. We will resume in public session in an hour to address business of the committee and correspondence. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.

The witnesses withdrew.

Sitting suspended at 12.55 p.m. and resumed at 1.57 p.m.