COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 26 Oct 2023

Business of Committee

An Cathaoirleach

The business before us this afternoon is minutes, accounts, financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business. The first item is the minutes of our meeting on 19 October, which were circulated. Any members who wish to raise anything should feel free to do so. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee's webpage.

I move on to financial statements. Eight sets of accounts and financial statements were laid before the Houses between 16 and 20 October 2023. Will Mr. McCarthy, Comptroller and Auditor General, address these?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

The first item on the list is the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board's financial statements for 2021. As members will recall, the board was before the committee last week so these accounts have been discussed but they were late for the list. They received a clear audit opinion, but, as members will remember, I drew attention to a settlement with the Revenue Commissioners of slightly less than €1 million in March 2022 in respect of underpayment of relevant contract tax and professional services withholding tax.

The second item is the National Tourism Development Authority's, or Fáilte Ireland's, financial statements for 2022. They received a qualified audit opinion. The accounts give a true and fair view, except in relation to two matters. The first of those is expected future pension funding. Unlike those of most other grant-funded State bodies, these financial statements do not recognise a deferred retirement benefit funding asset that relates to some of its pension liabilities. This is on the basis that the authority considers it has not been provided with a statutory or other guarantee for the future funding of this scheme. In its view, it has a statutory guarantee for another part of the pension liability but not for this part, which is estimated to have a value of €136 billion. Separately, the authority recognises a State grant debt of €12.9 million in respect of funding surrendered in 2019 at the request of the Department to reduce the level of cash held by the authority. The view the authority takes is that it surrendered the €12.9 million on the basis that it would be returned if required, but there is no formal commitment to that. In my view, it is more in the nature of a contingent asset.

Otherwise, I am satisfied that the accounts give a true and fair view.

No. 3 concerns Crawford Art Gallery Cork Limited. For 2022, that received a clear audit opinion.

No. 4 concerns Bord Iascaigh Mhara. For 2022, it received a clear audit opinion.

No. 5 concerns the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority. For 2022, it received a clear audit opinion. However, I draw attention to the results of a European Commission administrative inquiry that identified significant shortcomings in the weighing and reporting of pelagic fish landings and the lack of controls or enforcement over catches of bluefin tuna.

No. 6 concerns the Economic and Social Research Institute. It received a clear audit opinion. However, I draw attention to material non-compliance with procurement rules.

No. 7 concerns the Marine Institute. For 2022, it received a clear audit opinion.

No. 8 concerns the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Board, also known as Caranua. For 2022, it received a clear audit opinion.

An Cathaoirleach

Since no members wish to raise issues related to those accounts and financial statements, can we agree to note them? Agreed. As usual, the list of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

Let me move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items not flagged for discussion at this meeting will continue to be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken by the committee concerning correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s web page.

The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items is category B, which relates to correspondence from Accounting Officers and their Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings.

No. R2177B, from Mr. Ray Mitchell, assistant national director of the HSE, and dated 13 October, provides information requested by the committee during its meeting with HSE representatives on 5 October 2023. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I have flagged this item for discussion. We submitted six different questions regarding HSE matters. One relates to the timeline for the integrated financial management system. I see in the information supplied that the early build-and-test element was abandoned. It was decided that it should be terminated, in addition to the contract, and that this should be done on a no-fault basis. A new public procurement process started in 2022. The delivery date, if I am reading the graph correctly, is 1 January 2025. This has been a bone of contention. It refers to the period after the planning and design stage. That is my understanding. Is it that of the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Which table?

An Cathaoirleach

Table 1 on page 2 of the letter.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

I think it is giving the various explanations for what has delayed the project. There is a succession of tables explaining the position. If you examine the later tables, you can see that the completion of the project has been pushed out quite substantially.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. McCarthy understand the date is 1 March 2025?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

It is even later. We are looking at 80% phase one completion on 5 May 2025. There is a reference to finishing phase two by 31 July 2028.

An Cathaoirleach

That is on the next page.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes. It shows, with regard to certain of the stages, that there are implementation groups and that some of those are actually up and running. However, the percentage of the transactions of the system that will be in each of those phases is unclear.

An Cathaoirleach

On the day that those concerned were in, they said some-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Some of it was already up and running.

An Cathaoirleach

According to the final outline, it is 31 July 2028.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Yes, for the full completion of the project.

An Cathaoirleach

So there is another five years to go. In 2014 it was recommended, and in 2017 it started.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy: Effectively, the first phase was due to have been completed by July of this year, with the other phases or stages to be completed over a period of five years.

An Cathaoirleach

It is deeply frustrating that the timeline extends until past the middle of 2028.

The other issue was that of home support activity. Page 13 states that, as of July, there were 5,992 people assessed and waiting for carers. That figure seems to be sticking stubbornly at around the 6,000 mark. I ask that we get back to Mr. Gloster in the HSE and ask whether the waiting time will be affected by the issues he has raised regarding budget 2024. Could this be ascertained? Is the figure likely to increase? I hope it will not but if 6,000 have been assessed and are waiting for carers, it is significant. It seems the figure has been fairly static over the past few years. Could we get an answer on this? Do any other members wish to raise anything?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

Actually, the table relates to six months of this year, so it is January 2023, February 2023-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is right, but-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

So it is not going back over years. The figure may have remained the same over the years, but-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is the point I am making. I recollect the number was around the 6,000 mark a few years ago. However, in each of the six-month periods, it has stayed at around that level. The data show a very slight reduction of 300 or so, which is welcome, but over the first six or seven months of the year, the figure has hung around the 6,000 mark. In July, it came in at a total of 5,992. It is a case of whether there will be an impact on this by way of budgetary constraints or other measures in the coming year and whether this is being forecasted.

The next item of correspondence, dated 18 October, is No. R2184B, from Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. It provides information requested by the committee during the meeting with RTÉ representatives on 12 October 2023. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I have flagged this for discussion. The correspondence gives a timeline for the suspension of the former director general. The director general was formally suspended on 21 June and the resignation was on 29 June. The only peculiarity was that, on Thursday, 22 June, RTÉ was being quoted in the media as having stated the director general had taken early retirement. She had gone a fortnight earlier.

The other issue addressed in the letter concerns payments to Mr. Ryan Tubridy. The letter sets out when the Department was informed by the chair of the board. The Department states it was informed in late March of this year on foot of an audited annual account of 2022. Does any other member wish to comment on any of this?

An piece of information that has not been flagged by anybody but that might be of interest to members concerns MetroLink, which we have discussed here with officials from the Department of Transport. There are tables included setting out the expenditure so far, at €116 million.

There is a prudent client appraisal value of approximately €12.25 billion. Members can read through the figures themselves. It is information that we may need when representatives of the Department of Transport are next before the committee. Are members okay with the correspondence?

Deputy Colm Burke

Yes. Is there anything new in the response from RTÉ?

An Cathaoirleach

No. It gives timelines in respect of when the director general was formally suspended, when the Department was notified and how the Minister was notified, which it states was via a phone call from the chair of the board. It also includes the date that the former director general formally resigned, which was 29 June. There is a reply there regarding payments to Ryan Tubridy. We asked when that was brought to the attention of the Department. Ms Katherine Licken, the Secretary General, has stated that in late March, the Department was informed by the chair of the RTÉ board by telephone. The matter had arisen on foot of an annual account of 2022. She outlines what happened then. We can see it in the letter.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

In the interests of accuracy, the question put to RTÉ asked if the director general of the organisation resigned on 29 June. RTÉ has come back and stated that she announced her resignation on 26 June.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy

That is just for the record.

An Cathaoirleach

My apologies. That is correct. She resigned three days earlier. That concludes correspondence and we will move on to the work programme.

A draft programme has been circulated to members for discussion. It is appearing on the screens. Next week is the recess week. It is agreed that correspondence for the next meeting will be circulated to members on 2 November. On 9 November, we will meet representatives of the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communication to discuss SEAI's 2022 financial statements, 2022 appropriation account for Vote 29 and chapter 8 of the report on the accounts of public services on the performance of certain residential retrofit schemes. I remind members that meeting will take place in committee room 2 in order to facilitate the Finance Bill. The Committee on Finance wants to meet in this room for technical reasons. We will be in committee room 2 that week.

On 16 November, we will meet representatives of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform on its appropriation accounts for 2022, chapter 5 of the report on the accounts of public services and the format and content of appropriation accounts.

It was agreed to invite the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Housing Agency to examine chapter 11 on the utilisation of the land aggregation scheme sites on 23 November. However, the Department has informed us that key members of staff, including the Secretary General who was before the committee earlier, are not available on that date. I propose that we reschedule this engagement to 14 December and instead invite the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to attend on 23 November in relation to the 2022

appropriation account and chapter 19 on the National Training Fund. That chapter is being done by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In his annual report, the Comptroller and Auditor General highlighted the issue of funding for the National Training Fund. Does any member wish to comment on any of that? It is the proposed line-up from now until Christmas. Is everyone happy? Okay. That is good.

On 30 November, we will meet representatives of the Department of Finance to discuss the Department’s 2022 appropriation account and the relevant chapters from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s annual report.

Last week, it was agreed to meet with the Department of Health on 7 December to examine the 2022 appropriation account for Vote 38 and some specific areas of interest, which are the establishment of the new regional health areas; budget controls and governance, which are topical issues; budget outcomes; agency costs; and service level agreements with section 38 and section 39 organisations. That is the switch we are making near Christmas. I propose we meet with the Housing Agency and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in relation to chapter 11 on the utilisation of the land aggregation scheme sites on 14 December. That will be the final meeting of the year.

The committee previously discussed the possibility of holding another meeting with RTÉ before the end of the year. We have had some discussion of that in recent weeks. If we decide to do so, I propose that we use a Thursday afternoon session or seek an additional meeting slot, if necessary. Do members wish to make a comment? We have been back and forth with the clerk to the committee to move around those slots and try to get in the bodies that members have put into the programme. Does anybody want to comment or make a different suggestion? Now is the chance. Is the work programme agreed? Agreed. That concludes consideration of the work programme.

The last item on the agenda is any other business. Do any members wish to raise any matters? Okay. We will briefly move to private session before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9 November, when we will engage with representatives of the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

The committee went into private session at 2.16 p.m. and adjourned at 2.22 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9 November 2023.