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Committee on Budgetary Oversight debate -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 2023

Report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare: Discussion (Resumed)

I welcome Ms Mary Murphy and Dr. Nat O'Connor from Age Action Ireland; Ms Bríd O'Brien and Mr. Robbert Lynch from the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed; and Dr. Seán Healy, Ms Susanne Rogers and Ms Colette Bennett from Social Justice Ireland.

Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she does not adhere to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I thank our guests for attending. I invite Dr. Healy to give his opening statement.

Dr. Seán Healy

Social Justice Ireland welcomes the opportunity to speak to the committee on chapters 9 to 12, inclusive, of the report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and we thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation. While we have confined our statement to the chapters specified, we would welcome the opportunity to engage further with the committee on other aspects of the report, as we have done previously. There are some other aspects on which we have some ideas that have not yet been covered.

When the commission was established, we welcomed it and, in particular, its broad remit, which reflected an understanding of the integrated nature of the taxation and welfare systems in the lives of individuals, families, companies and communities and the importance of Government policy being framed in this overall context. Social Justice Ireland has an established record of engaging on policy issues regarding the taxation system and the welfare system. These form central components of our annual socioeconomic review, Social Justice Matters, which we publish every year, our annual pre-budget document, Budget Choices, and our annual post-budget analysis and critique publication. Frequently, these topics also frame our annual social policy conference and associated publications and our regular engagements with Oireachtas committees, including this one, political parties and national bodies such as the National Economic and Social Council, NESC. While Social Justice Ireland has previously made a submission on all four chapters on which we are reflecting, and we are happy to engage in discussions based on that written submission in questions with members, for the purpose of this opening statement, however, given our time is limited, I will confine my remarks to recommendations made in chapter 10, Labour Markets and Social Protection Systems.

Social Justice Ireland supports many of the recommendations contained within this chapter, in particular recommendation 10.3 in respect of extending PRSI to share-based remuneration, usually provided to higher earners; recommendation 10.6, in respect of charging the higher rate of PRSI on unearned income and passive income such as rent; and recommendation 10.7, to remove the cliff edges in the taxation and welfare system.

However, we disagree entirely with both recommendation 10.8 and the analysis underpinning it. Recommendation 10.8 relates to the dismissal by the commission of a universal basic income. We believe, however, that the analysis underpinning this recommendation contains serious errors of fact and errors of logic.

The first factual error relates to the required tax rate. In its limited analysis, the report referred to a 1994 study by the ESRI as follows, "In 1994, the ESRI conducted a study and found that a tax rate of 65 percent would be required to finance the basic income system proposed." However, the report did not go on to refer to another study carried out by Professor Charles Clark which found that a full basic income could be delivered for a tax rate of 47%, 48% or 49% percent, depending on the exact parameters used. These tax rates would replace not only income tax but also employee PRSI and levies and would apply to all personal income except for the basic income itself.

Neither did the report refer to work which was commissioned by the steering group which authored the Government’s Green Paper on basic income. The steering group drew up parameters for a full basic income and commissioned both the ESRI and Professor Clark to estimate the tax rate that would be required for this basic income model. The ESRI reported that a tax rate of 51.6% would be required. This was a significant reduction on its earlier claim that a tax rate of 65% would be required for a full basic income.

Professor Clark reported that a tax rate of 47.26% would be sufficient to fund this basic income model. As both authors had costed the same model, the basic income steering group was disappointed that there remained a significant divergence between their results. Accordingly, it asked the Department of Finance to estimate the tax rate. This is quite significant because it handed the work over to the Department of Finance and the Department reported that a tax rate of 47.6% would be required. The steering group accepted the Department of Finance estimate, which it rounded up to 48% in its report. This is the figure which was quoted in the Government’s Green Paper. In this report, the only tax rate that is quoted by the commission is its claim that it is 65%, a figure which was overtaken by the ESRI’s own studies subsequently, but notwithstanding that, the ESRI’s original numbers had been rejected by the Department of Finance which had concluded that 47.6% would be the rate for tax which would cover both income tax, PRSI, levies and so on. Given those facts and what the commission misreported, we argue that the recommendation it makes is inappropriate, misleading and erroneous.

The second factual error relates to the cost of basic income. The commission’s recent report states, “Moving from our existing mixed model to a universal basic income model would be a fundamental and very costly change in policy – from both a social welfare and tax perspective.” All costings of proposals have been made based on Exchequer neutrality, however, so there was no additional Exchequer expenditure expected. It should be borne in mind that in the previous budget, for example, tax cuts alone amounted to about €1.2 billion. There is always very substantial additional money available, budget by budget, but in the calculation on basic income, nothing was allocated - no additional money. Therefore, to say it would be a very costly change in policy is simply misinformed at best.

The third factual error concerns the impact on poverty and the distribution of income. The commission’s recent report states that the ESRI “report concluded that such a high tax rate would be a disincentive to people taking up employment and that the income distribution effect of the proposal did not benefit many low-income households, thus making a basic income unviable in Ireland”. Based on ESRI analysis, however, the Green Paper reported that “70% of household[s] in the bottom four deciles would gain from Basic Income, while 16% would lose compared with conventional options”. If we were moving towards a basic income, we would obviously have to put something in place to ensure those 16% did not lose out in real terms. The bottom line is, however, that the research showed that 70% of the poorest 40% of the population would be beneficiaries, or seven out of every ten. How then do we come to a conclusion that the distribution effect of the proposal does not benefit many low income households? Again, it is problematic. It is more than problematic; it is erroneous.

There are two other errors to which I want to point and they are both errors of logic. The commission's report contains major errors of logic. It states, for example, "A review of the evidence on universal basic income notes that while smaller basic income trials delivered some positive outcomes with respect to wellbeing, they did not noticeably affect employment or incentives to work." This failure of basic income to increase participation in the paid labour force is assumed, implicitly, in the report to be a disadvantage of basic income. However, the report fails to acknowledge that both basic income and the current tax and welfare system deliver the same participation in the paid labour force so there is no impact, positive or negative, in there. The report also fails to look at or recognise that only basic income also delivers improved well-being when compared with the current model. Instead, the report states that, "In the absence of a pilot programme that is large enough in sample size and over a long enough period of time, the fuller, long-term merits of universal basic income will remain unclear." The report is basically saying we cannot assess basic income without a perfect experiment. Our first response would be to ask how many significant policy initiatives in Ireland have followed a perfect experiment? For example, when there was a decision to reduce corporate tax rates to 10%, was it piloted? Was there some kind of perfect experiment? Of course not. It almost never happens but it seems to be set here, implicitly, as a requirement.

It is Social Justice Ireland’s contention that these errors of fact and logic contributed to the dismissal of basic income in the report. The Report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare 2022 came to its conclusion based on three serious factual errors and a failure to draw logical conclusion on pilots, that is, that universal basic income, UBI, appears to be superior, along with a declaration that we cannot assess UBI until a perfect experiment is conducted, which is untrue, and a recommendation based on no evidence that we should not do a perfect experiment. Consequently, Social Justice Ireland rejects the commission’s recommendation not to support the development of a universal basic income in Ireland. That conclusion should be rejected because the evidence and the logic on which it is based is erroneous, misleading and inappropriate. We call on the commission, on the Committee on Budgetary Oversight and on the parent Department, the Department of Finance, to ensure these grave errors are corrected.

Ms Mary Murphy

Age Action is Ireland's leading advocacy organisation on ageing and older people. We advocate for a society that enables all older people to participate and to live full, independent lives. We are grateful for the opportunity to address the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report. While today’s session is limited to four chapters, we would also welcome the opportunity to address other recommendations on another occasion.

Age Action endorses the report’s top-level recommendation on the need for tax and social insurance revenue to rise significantly to meet the challenges Ireland faces in the years ahead, including sustaining the State pension as the bedrock of income in older age, and to ensure public services are sufficient to meet everyone’s needs.

Regarding chapter 9, tens of thousands of people past traditional retirement age are business owners, and the tax system should be used to encourage and support older persons to invest in businesses and to use their capital to support new enterprises.

Regarding chapter 10, there are 80,000 or more people in employment who are aged 66 or older. That is an increase of 50% in five years. Nearly one in five people in employment is now aged 55 or older, up from one in ten in 1998. Older workers are a large and increasingly important part of the labour market, and they can require unique supports.

A growing number of older persons who rent could not afford their housing costs if they stopped working. Some older persons stay in work because their pension income is insufficient. These are issues of immediate and urgent concern.

Recommendations 10.4 and 10.5, about extending PRSI to people aged over 66, concern many older persons. Pensions in Ireland replaced 39% of an income in 2021 compared to an EU average of 58%. Ireland was the fifth lowest in the EU and the lowest in north or western Europe, and there is a high dependency on the State pension. Any increase of PRSI on pensions risks pushing older persons into poverty more than it would in other European countries.

Many older persons are on low incomes, especially those living alone. For example, 44% of adults aged 65 or older living alone are at risk of poverty. Age Action Ireland has repeatedly called for a national cost-of-aging study. Any proposal to change the tax treatment of older persons must be based on detailed evidence of the costs older persons face.

Another problem is that people working beyond the age of 65 can no longer pay PRSI to improve their State pensions. Likewise, they are not eligible for social protection payments, such as illness benefit, despite the fact that many employers will deduct this amount from their wages on the assumption that it will be paid. The commission's report is calling for a solidarity rate of PRSI that would not convey these benefits, and this makes no sense to older workers. Exempting some forms of income, such as welfare, from PRSI would be unfair, as opposed to setting a minimum income threshold. For example, former State enterprise workers did not have the opportunity to pay PRSI that would give them entitlement to a State pension but would pay PRSI on their entire income under these proposals, despite their incomes in some cases being less than the State pension rate.

Regarding chapter 11, we need to consider the pension reforms that were announced after the report was published, such as incentivising people to defer access to the State pension up to age 70. The decision to defer will be impacted by individuals' health status and by their tax status before and after retirement. Interactions between the tax and welfare systems like this lead to unintended consequences. The deferred pension proposals will likely make the State pension significantly more expensive for the State but without achieving any reduction in poverty among older persons.

Age Action Ireland supports recommendation 11.1 that secondary benefits should be developed on a cross-departmental basis to avoid anomalies, but it should be extended to apply to older persons. For example, a small increase in the State pension causes some people to lose the over-70s medical card, which is worth far more to them than the increase.

Recommendations 11.7 and 11.9 on the public employment service should explicitly include advice and services for accessing employment to older persons, including those over the State pension age.

Recommendation 11.6 on individualisation of taxation should not be applied to the current generation of older persons or to those near State pension age as individualisation of income taxation would be grossly unfair to those households where women were forced by the State to give up employment or where women worked in the home as parents and carers.

On chapter 12, the aim of greater gender equality underpinning recommendation 12.6 on individualisation is important as the current State pension system reinforces gender inequality, with women often receiving lower incomes than men as qualified adults rather than recipients in their own right.

Recommendation 12.1 on benchmarking should apply to the State pension, and a cost-of-aging study is needed to provide the evidence for any benchmarking exercise.

Recommendation 12.5 on introducing a second tier of child benefit to lower income households is important, not only in terms of social solidarity but to those older persons who currently subsidise the household income of their children and grandchildren.

We would be happy to answer the committee’s questions on any of these points.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

I am grateful for and welcome the opportunity to speak to the committee. One of the key messages in the report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare was the acknowledgement that:

The adequacy of social welfare rates in central to poverty reduction. Regular benchmarking exercises for working-age payments should be undertaken, which would set multi-annual targets for progress in rates.

The committee has asked us to comment on four chapters. I will touch on those briefly. We sent our submission to the committee in January. Chapter 9 relates to promoting enterprise. It was striking that the chapter focused on the tax system. For people who are unemployed, particularly those who find it difficult to access employment because of barriers to their access, self-employment can be an important route. In that regard, the back-to-work enterprise allowance is an important support for people. We would like to see that allowance improved. It is regrettable that it was not deatl with in the report. We feel it would be very much in keeping with some of the Government's aims in the economic recovery plan to introduce a range of measures to support young people, disadvantaged groups and people distant from the labour market to find employment.

There is, in chapter 10, an acknowledgment that a coherent approach is required to the design of the taxation and welfare systems. One of the issues that comes up regularly in our work is the complexity of our social welfare system. This situation, coupled with uncertainty about how the taxation system might impact an unemployed person seeking to move from a welfare payment into work, can make such a move challenging. It is a challenge that can be exacerbated if the only available work does not have a regular pattern, leading to income uncertainty and insecurity.

Our tax and welfare systems must adopt a strong proactive attitude to information dissemination, seeking to ensure that all people living and working in Ireland is aware of their rights and entitlements, what they can seek and where, what information and documentation is required of them to engage with the tax or welfare systems. Though online engagement will be more conducive for many to facilitate such provision, it will be essential that people for whom online engagement is not feasible have full access to meaningful supports and services.

The report also acknowledges the role of social protection in times of major economic shock in smoothing out issues for people. The Covid-19 pandemic demonstrated how flexible and supportive public administration can be and the impact it can have. The roll-out of the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, was unprecedented in its scale and speed. It and the enhanced illness benefit payment provided timely and much better income supports to people who would otherwise have struggled at a very difficult and challenging time.

Later in chapter 10, the commission notes, "Over the past decade, there has been a clear policy of developing the PES in line with international thinking that, for people of working age, social protection systems should be more ‘active’ i.e. provide support to jobseekers finding employment, as well as providing benefits." The downside to this approach is that the public employment service becomes more interlinked with certain social welfare payments, in particular jobseeker's payments, the only payments to which "genuinely seeking work" criteria apply. Such an approach does not lend itself to developing a person-centred service inclusive of all people of working age, leaving people who are unemployed and not in receipt of a payment or job changes outside of most labour market supports. This can be a particular issue for women but in more recent times it has also been a particular issue for men who come to the end of jobseeker's benefit.

The commission also notes, "There must be a capacity to respond to greater demand for training and support where people are unemployed due to sectoral decline, where tasks are transferred to automated processes." This is a challenge that will also arise as Ireland seeks to decarbonise its economy. Over recent years, INOU affiliated organisations have noted that as good jobs are lost in their areas, alternative employment too often has inferior pay, terms and conditions. Such a scenario not only throws up difficulties at the personal, familial and communal levels, but it also presents tax and welfare challenges. We need to address these issues as we move forward.

In respect of the promotion of employment, access to good social welfare and employment supports and services is critical, not only for people who are unemployed but for Ireland’s social and economic development. In a changing world of work, everyone of working age needs to be able to access good information and supports to make informed and sustainable decisions.

The commission notes, in consideration of the public employment service, that, "Jobseekers are not a homogenous cohort and the requirements of other cohorts may be even more diverse, requiring a range of responses from the PES." This is absolutely true. It is essential that the recognition of this diversity is informed by the public sector equality and human rights duty.

A report we did a few years ago considered what a quality public employment service would do. Key aspects we noted were clear communication, a positive approach, proactive support, building relationships and networking, co-operation and building links with employers. We need to ensure, as we move forward, that the system demonstrates that it believes in the potential and capacity of the person, that it engages with people and supports them to make an informed choice.

Chapter 12 relates to inclusive and integrated social protection. The report notes the important role that social protection plays in people's lives. One of the principles it notes is the mitigation and sharing of risk across society.

Social protection acts as a safety net for those who are at risk of poverty. It follows, therefore, that social welfare rates must be adequate in order to provide such a safety net effectively. The INOU feels that this is absolutely critical. We feel that the actions taken during the pandemic crisis highlighted the importance of good and adequate social welfare rates. A key learning for us arose as the economy and labour market reopened and people went back to work. The lesson was that not impoverishing people is critical to supporting them to be able to return to work. Therefore, we really need a social welfare system that is adequate, lifts people above the poverty line and ensures they can meet a minimum essential standard of living, MESL. We cite the very important done by the Vincentian MESL Research Centre in that regard.

For a good number of years, the INOU has called for the introduction of a work-friendly social welfare system that is reflective of changing work practices that are based on hours rather than days. In December, the Department of Social Protection launched its consultation. This time around, it primarily focused on pay-related benefits but it also floated the idea of a working age payment, which was initially raised in Pathways to Work. While it is an interesting proposal, we believe a lot more work needs to be done around how it would develop. It would be in keeping with some of the recommendations in this chapter of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report. Likewise, with regard to the pay-related benefit, again what is proposed is pay-related up to a point. Again, it has caps. We would be concerned at the further cut in duration of jobseekers' benefit. In the 2008 crisis, the duration of jobseekers' benefit was cut quite considerably and that has never been reinstated. That has particular implications for unemployed people who do not make the transition to jobseekers' allowance and then find themselves outside of supports. Again, we feel that some of these proposals, which were also reflected in the Commission on Taxation and Welfare report, would need to be reconsidered because they could have detrimental effects for those who are unemployed and might not be eligible for jobseekers' allowance. I thank the committee.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I will invite members to ask questions, following our usual rota. As I do not see anyone from Fine Gael here, I call Deputy Mairéad Farrell.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh as ucht teacht isteach chun an choiste. I thank the witnesses for their very interesting presentations. In some ways, I do not know where to start. I might start with the INOU if that is okay. A line from the INOU's opening statement jumped out at me:

.... access to good social welfare and employment supports and services is critical, not only for people who are unemployed but for Ireland’s social and economic development.

That is an important and strong point. Given the pressures people are facing at the moment with inflation, they are living below MESL already. More and more people are being pushed into poverty. We see all the different reports coming out. Barnardos made a presentation in Leinster House in relation to that today. Their focus was the development of the child and the impact it has on children when their parents are not earning enough. People are budgeting as best they can but simply do not have enough money coming in. Can the INOU give a view on the importance of social welfare for society as a whole? It was already below MESL, but now there is a greater impact as a result of higher inflation and higher costs of living. That is my initial question.

Is that question for a particular witness or for all three?

It is for the INOU.

Sorry, go ahead.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

I thank the Deputy. We would love to see a public employment service for everybody of working age. As the world of work is changing, we feel we need a service that is there for unemployed people, regardless of whether they are on a payment; for people who are seeking to change their job; and for people who are returning to paid employment, many of whom will be women. That is really important. Yes, our social welfare system is not adequate. It is not at the level it needs to be at to lift people above the poverty line and ensure they can meet the MESL. The cost-of-living crisis has exacerbated that. It is an issue that needs to be addressed as we go forward because it can be very difficult for people to manage other aspects of their lives if every day they are trying to figure out how to pay for this and how to pay for that, and if they pay this today what they can do tomorrow. We feel it is really important that this question is addressed. It would make a huge difference to many people.

Does Ms O'Brien believe the pressure people are under as they try to make ends meet - to put food on the table for their children, or whatever it may be - is hampering their ability to go into employment, if that is available to them, or to make progress with other aspects of their lives such as education? If they are unable to make ends meet, that may be consuming them. We know the impact a lack of food has on children for educational purposes. I am asking about the impact on adults who may want to try to access education or get into the workforce.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

I thought there was a clear learning in this regard from the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP. The payment was set at a level that made a difference. As the labour market reopened, it was really striking that the numbers went down. When the PUP was closed, only 20 people moved across to a jobseekers' payment. The clear message for me was that we need to get the adequacy piece right. It makes a difference if people are not frantically trying to struggle. Finding a job is a job in itself. Some people are great at it, but the majority of us are not. We need assistance and we need support. If one is frantically trying to manage, it is very hard to find a job because it takes financial and human resources to get one's head in that space. When one is applying for a certain job, one has to figure out how to write the covering letter, what to send in and what to highlight. It can be very difficult. Getting that piece right will help people to manage other aspects, including doing what is expected of them if they are on a jobseekers' payment, which is to find a job. It is critical to get that piece right.

Does Ms Rogers want to come in on that as well?

Ms Susanne Rogers

I have some thoughts. The welfare rate is not adequate and I think there has been a lot of work done on that. Our friends in the Vincentian Partnership have shown that the MESL is so important because it is an agreed standard for everybody, and not just those in receipt of social welfare. One should not be under this level. I am always conscious that the Insolvency Service of Ireland's reasonable living allowance, which it puts into place when someone goes bankrupt or insolvent, uses the MESL as the base. One arm of government says that someone who is bankrupt will be allowed a certain amount of money every month on which to get by - again, standard social welfare does not come anywhere near it - and another arm of government is saying that this is how much a person needs but we will not give it to them. I find that very difficult to meet in the middle. There is talk of developing a new national child poverty target. The exact point is that child poverty is family poverty if there is inadequate income in the household. Parents do their best - we all hear similar stories of parents going without certain things so their children can have them - but that causes stress and kids pick up on this. The kids know that their family is different and is not really managing things. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul and Dr. Micheál Collins did a piece of work a couple of years ago which found that the cost of poverty is not just on individual families. It is more than emotional and social; it is economic as well. It simply does not make sense to have hundreds of thousands of people living in poverty. I am always conscious that anybody who thinks that €220 per week is enough to get by on has never done it.

I agree 100%. I am conscious that I am running out of time. I have a brief question for Social Justice Ireland and the INOU and then I have a question for Age Action. Dr. Healy spoke about the universal basic income. I am quite interested in the job guarantee scheme, which differs from the universal basic income in that a job is guaranteed for people. That can be in terms of our climate action proposals and all those kinds of things. Is this something that Social Justice Ireland has considered or looked into?

Dr. Seán Healy

We have looked at it quite closely. Social Justice Ireland is very much in favour of maximising the number of jobs that are there and trying to ensure people have access to meaningful work.

However, we have got to be careful. Not every job gets you out of poverty. There are 100,000 or more-----

As the job guarantee scheme would be State-run, it would have to be at a certain level.

Dr. Seán Healy

That does not follow. I would love to think that it does. We have just heard about two sides of the State that Ms Rogers was talking about a second ago. Two sides of the State can have totally different views of how they would deal with something.

It is not here. That is what I mean. It is a concept.

Dr. Seán Healy

The concern I have all the time is that a good concept does not necessarily mean that people would get sufficient income to live life with dignity into their pocket. That guarantee needs to be built in to the job guarantee and then we can go with it. Having a basic income system or not would not impact on that. One could still have a job guarantee system with a basic income system. I would be positive about it on the condition that the payment was absolutely guaranteed to provide sufficient income to live life with dignity, which is not the welfare rate as has been pointed out clearly by both Ms O'Brien and Ms Rogers already.

I totally take Dr. Healy's point on that. I only have a minute left. Does the INOU have a strong view on the jobs guarantee? Then I will quickly ask Age Action a question.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

For us, the critical thing is people being able to access decent employment and exercise choice. That is the critical piece for us.

Obviously, it depends on what government would implement it. I take that point.

For Age Action, one of the points that jumped out at me, and something I have noticed increasingly, is pensioners facing being in shared rented accommodation and knowing that they have to retire. One man had to retire by 70 and he knew he would not be able to afford his housing assistance payment, HAP, accommodation because he was paying way too much. Is that something that is coming up a lot for Age Action?

Dr. Nat O'Connor

The answer is "Yes". In census 2016, we saw that 2.5% of older persons are renters. That adds up to a significant number. An NESC report on the private rented sector that was published today emphasises that the older renter is a growing cohort. If you project ahead ten or 20 years, a large number of people who are renting now are unlikely ever to become homeowners. The prevalence of the older renter is rapidly growing. It is a very significant policy concern because so many private leases are of short duration and people simply have no security in older age. We have spoken to people who are worried. They are working in their late 60s and into their 70s and they do not know how they will pay the rent once they stop working.

My time is up. I thank Dr. O'Connor.

There are one or two brief points that I would like to ask the panel about. I thank the witnesses for their various contributions on the report.

I would like to ask briefly about PRSI for pensioners and also child benefit and child poverty. Chapter 9 focuses on child benefit as it is and on whether it should continue to be a universal payment. There is also the child allowance that a social welfare recipient would receive. There was a recommendation towards an additional child benefit or a means-tested portion of it. I would be interested to hear the panel's views on that. Would it be almost like a small top-up? Would it be a large proportion of the overall funding that a parent should receive for child benefit? What kind of a sliding scale would it be on? Who would receive it? At present, the lower deciles of population would be able to get the social welfare top-up. There is a cohort, probably the four middle deciles of population, that would not be benefiting in a lot of different areas. Where would they spread that kind of a payment? I would be interested to hear about that. We can return to the PRSI for pensioners afterwards. I will open that question to anyone who has an interest in child benefit or child poverty.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

There have been proposals for a good number of years around amending the child income supports. A good number of years ago, the NESC compiled a report which looked at that issue in terms of maintaining child benefit as a floor and then in effect using the qualified child increase, QCI, supports. One is a universal payment and the other is paid while a person is on welfare. There have been some supports in more recent years and people can maintain some of those supports if they take up work. However, there can be a challenge if people move from a welfare payment into employment as they have to factor that in. That can be a particular challenge if what is on offer for people is low-paid work. People can also possibly access the working family payment. For us, one of the issues we would like to see is the system being more proactive in informing people of what is there and supporting people to be able to access supports in a more timely fashion. We feel that would help.

Certainly, there have been proposals for a good number of years around redesigning it. We would need to see what was actually being proposed because, as we noted earlier around the pay-related benefit, often one can ask for one thing and what then gets rolled out can be slightly different. That would need to be seen in greater detail. When work has been looked at over the years, there have definitely been swings and roundabouts. It would need to be managed with great care. Unfortunately, often there can be people who might lose out in the change. That would need to be explored carefully in terms of moving forward on that.

I thank Ms O'Brien.

Dr. Seán Healy

We agree with much of that. I would make a couple of additional points. For us, it is critical that the universal payment remain in place. On the additional payment, I agree with Ms O'Brien. She and I have been part of the NESC, which has done a huge amount of work over the years trying to work this out. It has been tried by different governments in different ways down the years, but never with any great success. We would need to be very careful. For a lot of people, there is a misconception that we can solve the child poverty issue without having to solve the household or family poverty issue. Some people think that if we solve child poverty, we solve overall poverty. I think that is looking at the whole issue in a disjointed way. It needs to be looked at in an integrated way that recognises and looks carefully at what any proposal that is being made would result in, what additional money would go into a household and what difference that would make, bearing in mind that the basic welfare rate for an adult or for two adults is far below what is required to live life with basic dignity. There is a very serious challenge here. Our view always has been that if there are resources available, the best approach is to drive the adult rates and then drive the children subsequently.

I am interested in the group in the middle who are not qualifying for any level of social welfare. Many of them are under pressure because they are travelling long distances for work or are under pressure to pay for housing and travel, etc. I am interested to see if there is some way of supporting them and their children. I am interested in whether there are particular thoughts on that.

I mentioned the PRSI for pensioners, but pensioners without PRSI might be more the direction. People have been paying in for many years and they do not see that they would get a benefit out of the PRSI when they are on their pension. Is there a view of what direction things should be going in that respect? There were recommendations in the report. There were strong views on it. I would be interested to hear from the panel on it.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

I thank the Deputy. There are a number of issues in relation to the commission's recommendations. They are recommending that older persons would pay a solidarity rate of PRSI. They are not paying PRSI at the moment. If they were to pay a solidarity rate for which they get no benefit this is almost the worst possible outcome. We are looking at a situation where the State is seeking to facilitate people who wish to work longer into their late 60s and 70s and beyond. In that sense the PRSI system needs to support people. For example, some people might like to work so they can build up enough credits to get a full-rate State pension. That is not possible at the moment. That would be a benefit of paying PRSI. A person in their late 60s could fall ill and might want to get illness benefit so they can get back to work. Many employers would deduct that amount but currently the person would not be eligible for illness benefit.

One of the strengths of the Report of the Commission on Tax and Welfare is that it looks at the intersection of the two systems. When one considers the older worker, that intersection becomes all the more important. We cannot assume that just because people lose a job at the age of 67 they are happy to move on to the State pension. They might be ill for a few months but they might want to get back to work again for another three or four years. The system should facilitate that.

Many older persons will be concerned about the idea of increasing PRSI on them, for a lot of reasons but not least because Ireland's pension coverage with private and public combined is very low. As my colleague Ms Murphy said earlier, it covers 39% of average wages compared to the European average of 56%. The income replacement of our public and private pension system is low. People on lower incomes have less capacity to pay additional taxes such as PRSI. That is a problem.

Looking into the details of the proposals that the State pension or perhaps welfare would be exempt but that other pensions would be charged, one could create all sorts of inequities by doing this. For example, there could be people with no entitlement to the State pension because they were State enterprise workers, yet they are paying a different type of public pension, which according to these proposals would be fully taxed under PRSI, and they could have a lower income than somebody on the State pension who would be exempt. That makes no sense.

Dr. O'Connor referred earlier to PRSI on earned income and on unearned income, and he made the distinctions on that. That unearned income, whether it is from rent or whatever, is coming to the pensioner who has generated and earned it by working throughout his or her life to create it and paid the tax on it. I am trying to figure out why there would be a distinction there and they would be paying on that. The private pension, for example, was saved for and generated by the person throughout his or her life. I am trying to get a handle on Dr. O'Connor's view on that in the context of PRSI.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

Okay. I suppose they were not our comments. I believe that Social Justice Ireland mentioned the PRSI on rental income and so on. There is broadly a principle that there should be equity in the tax system and that different forms of income should be equally taxed, but in this case currently all forms of income going to the older person leave many older people with a low income. That is our core concern. Any change to the PRSI system that would affect older persons simply must do a detailed analysis of our income replacement levels from all sources.

I thank Dr. O'Connor.

Dr. Seán Healy

Social Justice Ireland argues for and supports the idea of extending PRSI to share-based remuneration. That is one of the recommendations in the report and that is usually for higher earners. We also support the charging of a higher rate of PRSI on unearned income and passive income such as rent and so on. They were the kinds of comments we were making on the PRSI. We have made a few other comments in our longer submission, which was forwarded to the committee last month.

I thank Dr. Healy.

First of all I want to warmly welcome each of the witnesses who have come here today and who have given their time. I found it very informative to listen to their viewpoints. As always, Dr. Seán Healy, Ms Mary Murphy, Ms Bríd O'Brien and Dr. O'Connor made great common sense in a way that is very helpful to us on this committee.

My late mother always said to me that when it came to older people and pensions, to remember and never forget that a fiver a week to somebody on a pension can actually make a difference. My mother may have said that more to me in the years gone by, and nowadays perhaps €5 would not do much for a person. At the same time, when a person is on a fixed income, whatever that income is and especially if it is a pension, any type of assistance that can be given is important. An example would be what happened in the first week in January when additional people were able to qualify for the fuel allowance.

A number of years ago "energy poverty" was not a term used in the way that it is used now. Now it is a real problem. When people are afraid to open their ESB bills that is something we really must sit up and take notice of. When we see that the cost of producing energy in Ireland is 50% and 60% more than in other parts of Europe, we really must sit up and ask ourselves what we are going to do as a country so we can go forward without leaving people behind, be those older people, vulnerable people, people who are ill, or people with different difficulties in life such as unemployment or the general difficulties that certain sectors of society have. We must ensure that when we are going forward we are looking behind to make sure we leave no one behind.

This is why I appreciate the expert witnesses who come into this committee and give of their time. It is so important. I am not saying this in a plámás type of way; I am saying it is a fact. People know me straight enough to know that if I thought a person was raving or not making sense, or if I did not agree with them, I would certainly say it and I would not be one bit worried about putting somebody's nose out of joint by saying it.

There are very sensible and practical things that we must do in the future. I would hope that the cost of the ESB will come down of its own accord over the next weeks and months. Quite simply, it has to. It is unsustainable at present. This is not just for individuals but also for small businesses. We must remember that if the small business goes that is the local employment gone out of the locality. It is also about the service the small business offers, be it a hairdresser or a butcher. One would be surprised at the amount of butcher shops that are on the brink of closing due to their large energy costs given their use of freezers and so on. Local businesses are great places for employment and for providing a local service. They are affordable and they would help people. They would especially help the customers who they have built up over many years and they would never see the person short. We do not want to see this happening or the corner shops going. They provide a vital service in their communities. It is so important that the cost of energy comes down.

With regard to the fuel allowance, people really are struggling to keep themselves warm. I know this because I do a lot of clinics on the ground as I go around into every community. I do that as there are older and vulnerable people who are not able to come to the clinics and they might have an issue. I may have been given a message that I should call to so and so a person, and maybe not even a message from the person himself or herself. I consider it a privilege to be able to go into somebody's home because one learns so much going into a person's house. You would not be inside for five minutes when you would understand and see for yourself the difficulties that they have. I must be honest and say that there are times when it is upsetting. On many occasions when I have gone into a room I could clearly realise that the person is sitting in the room by a fire, which is predominantly an open fire, and the kitchen table is to one side and perhaps one could see a sofa - not a bed - on the other side of the room.

You quickly realise they are living in that room and use it as their bedroom, sitting room and kitchen. They literally live in that one room, which I find upsetting because sometimes the place might not be up to the standard that you would like or want it to be. Afterwards you try to help by engaging the services. If I live forever, I would never be able to express enough thanks to the voluntary groups and it could be members of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul who might supply dinners or the local authority that might assist by providing money towards doing up the property. Sometimes it takes a lot of cajoling to bring a person along and improve his or her lot but that is a responsibility that is on each and every one of us. It does not matter whether you are a Deputy or work as part of voluntary group, if you put yourself in the way of engaging with these people, then you are honour bound to talk up for them at committees like this and in forums like the Dáil or a local authority, or if you are a spokesperson who has the opportunity to be on the news like Dr. Seán Healy. I do not mean to go on too much about Dr. Healy but he has a voice, a respectability and a credibility so that when people see him on the 9 o'clock news or the 6 o'clock news, they will sit up and listen because they want to know what he is saying, want to hear the point that he is making and believe that he will make a credible argument for whatever. There is an onus of responsibility on us all to bring people with us and improve their lot because, whether they live in local authority houses or private houses, they might not have the best of everything. I do not want to sound negative because there is great work being done but we must do more.

On heating people's homes, the Chairperson knows me well enough to realise that I am not trying to make a political football out of the green agenda. However, when we talk about reducing emissions then yes, of course, we have to do our part for the environment but, my God, what happens if people only has a certain method of heating to heat their home? Please do not start talking about retrofitting grants because they mean nothing to a person who is 70, 80 or 90 years of age, as they cannot apply for or will not apply for a grant. All they want to do is to keep going and as they are not going to want to change the little system they have, they should be able to buy a bag of coal. To be blunt, if there is going to be smoke out of that coal then that is not their worry or priority. Their only priority is to have heat and that the heat will come out of the fire on to their bodies and keep warm their knees, elbows and hands, which maybe worked very hard. They want the heat to put life into their bones before they lie down for the night. We, as politicians, must make sure that we do not introduce legislation that means, for example, the price of a bag of coal goes completely out of control and reaches almost €50 for a 40 kg bag of smokeless coal. Anybody who knows about coal will tell you that smokeless coal does not give you the same amount of heat as what I would call traditional coal and that is a fact.

I plead with people to think about vulnerable people when they talk about targets and claim we have to do this and that. There is one thing that we have to do. We have to see after the people of the future but we have to see after the people of today also because not to do would make us so neglectful of our duty. We have a duty. Once we are able to get up in the morning and go out and fight for and stand up for people, then we must do so in a balanced way. I say that without making a political point.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

The Deputy has covered a lot of issues and I will comment on two of them. One is that there are many older persons in Ireland who live on a very low income. As many as 44% of those who live alone are at risk of poverty and that is true all over the country but particularly in rural areas. It is certainly something about which we are very concerned.

The Deputy mentioned inflation and the hope, which we all have, that energy prices will come down. It is difficult to forecast where inflation will go to but none of the forecasters have predicted deflation. No one is predicting that, overall, prices will go below what they were last year. Energy prices might go down but other prices are likely to remain elevated. Many of the businesses that the Deputy spoke about, such as butchers and corner shops, will not have passed on the full price of energy. They have absorbed some of the cost over a period. In fact, businesses all over the country will have done that and, as a result, we will see prices continue to increase. That is what the ESRI, the OECD and other organisations will all predict, namely, continued inflation in Ireland next year and the following year. The net point of that is we need welfare incomes to catch up because they have not been indexed against the rise of inflation and we need to index them against average earnings. Although we got €12 on the State pension in January, which is very welcome by many people, the spending power of the State pension will be €23 behind this year what it was in 2020. Therefore, it is really important that the welfare rates are further increased because inflation, while it might settle on the energy side, is going to embed across the whole economy in terms of prices.

Ms Susanne Rogers

I echo what has been said and will quote from the 540-page report, entitled Foundations for the Future: Report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare, which states: "A key function of the social protection system is to act as a safety net for those at risk of poverty and social exclusion". The social welfare system is extremely important. On inflation, we are not going to see a decrease in prices. That is easily visible in supermarkets where, for example, prices have increased from €1.70 to €1.90 to €2.10. The price will not go back to €1.70, however, it will remain at €2.10. To even combat food inflation, we would have needed a rise of €33 on basic social welfare. We only got an increase of €12 even though everybody called for an increase of €20, which was an amount that would have only allowed people to stand still and would not have made an impact on poverty or deprivation figures. I appreciate that €12 is a much bigger figure than we have seen in recent years but it is not enough and we are not keeping up with the world in which we live in terms of basics. Every single time anybody conducts research, they come up with the same cohorts that are most at risk, namely, lone-parent households, those who were removed from the workforce due to illness or disability, rural households and older households. Ideally, we need more than €8 just so people can afford to put food on their tables and put the heat on.

Ms Colette Bennett

I thank the Deputy for all of the points that he raised. He talked about what people are prioritising. I recall that when the environmental justice arm of Community Law & Mediation conducted research and held focus groups in areas that had high levels of disadvantage, they came across the phrase, "it is toss up between the end of the week or the end of the world" and the people in these areas have to think of the end of the week. I say that in response to the Deputy talking about people choosing to use a type of fuel because it will heat them and will be cost-effective for them in the immediate term. That is an issue but the overarching issue is income inadequacy because when people have an adequate income, they do not have to make those kind of choices as the end of their week is sorted and they can make longer-term decisions.

There is a lot of talk about energy poverty. Essentially, if the money comes out of the one pot, then it is all poverty. We talk about food and energy inflation. Yes, we are having spikes in those things at the moment, so the State needs to step in when there are such inflationary shocks.

However, before any of this was an issue in the past year and a half, we had income inadequacy and people living well below the poverty line. We still had people making decisions on whether to keep a roof over their head, feed themselves in addition to their children or heat enough rooms in their home. It goes back to the main point of this meeting being on income adequacy and what that means.

Deputy Aindrias Moynihan mentioned proposals for change in child benefit. I echo the points made by my colleagues in the room on the need for not only adequate payments for children and universal payments but also to bear in mind that children do not tend to live in isolation. They are part of a family and household. If the household is not keeping its head above water, the children will not be either.

My colleagues referenced the Insolvency Service of Ireland. Child benefit is a protected payment so even if a low-income household is going for a debt relief notice, the child benefit is still protected. It is not taken into account in the income calculation. There is an overarching piece around increasing child benefit, making it more universal or increasing the benefits. All of those things need to be done but it sits in the context of a broader discussion outside the remit of this committee but which needs to be borne in mind. We are looking at excessively high inflation in accommodation and at an accommodation crisis, and are paying well above the odds for childcare. We have an inadequate public transport system. Other things are impacting on people’s standard and quality of living, as well as their cost of living, and will have an impact on whether a basic payment will be adequate for them.

I thank all the contributors from the INOU, Social Justice Ireland and Age Action. Fair play to them for getting their heads around all this detail because I find it mind-bending trying to cross-reference the report's recommendations and the contributors’ responses and observations on them. I broadly agree with many of the points being made. I did not hear all the introductions. Is everybody in favour of a universal basic income? No.

Dr. Seán Healy

We are in favour of it but we have been advocating for some time that it be studied properly and fairly. We are finding serious fault with the Commission on Taxation and Welfare in that the work done there does nor really merit the title of “work”. It is basically a hopeless piece of underpinning it has provided for its conclusion that it should not be moved with.

This is on what the tax rate would have to be to fund it, is it?

Dr. Seán Healy

That is one of the issues it got completely wrong. It quoted a figure of 65%. That comes from an 1994 ESRI study which the ESRI itself reduced dramatically some years later and which was subsequently rejected as too high by the Department of Finance. Why did the commission not point out that the 65% figure in the text - which is the only figure it provides – was disowned by the people who did the work? They did another study and came to a much lower figure. That figure was seen as too high by the Department of Finance, and we agree with the Department’s conclusion on that. That number was carried in the Green Paper on basic income. There have been a number of studies on basic income since. All we ask all the time is for a fair assessment of basic income based on evidence and research, and not on ideology, pub talk or whatever somebody got into their head some day when they had a pain. The analysis in the report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare on basic income is a disgrace.

Strong words. Did Dr. Healy say he thinks the basic income should be based on MESL? Did I understand that correctly?

Dr. Seán Healy

The basic income would depend on many things. We do not advocate it be based on the MESL but that it be based on a number that is viable - economically, socially, whatever. Ideally, it would be the MESL. We would have to look in that context at what the tax rates look like. Regarding a universal basic income, we have always kept close to where the welfare line is at any particular time, and that would still make a substantial contribution across the system. Remember that when a basic income is proposed, other supports are kept or put in place; for example, disability payments, illness payments and other payments. Those payments are not changed or removed under a basic income system.

Will Dr. Healy give a figure? I do not know if this corresponds to his idea of it, but in our pre-budget submission we argued that, as a minimum, people should go above about €290. I do not know if it was the MESL figure we used. We rounded it up to say people should have a minimum €300 per week.

Dr. Seán Healy

The MESL number is €290. That is the ideal. This is an issue society needs to work on. Do we want everybody in society to have enough to live with dignity? What is that number? For an individual, it is €290 per week. The current welfare rate is €220 per week. In an ideal context, we see €290 as the basic rate but we are not arguing for that because it may have to be worked towards. We have strongly argued in the welfare discussion----

We are for going for it straight away.

Dr. Seán Healy

Fair enough. We were talking in the welfare system to go for €220 and there was complete agreement across the community and voluntary sector on that number coming up to the budget decisions for this year. The Government did not match that. It basically only gave us €12. Since then, we have listened to a PR campaign that must be costing millions. My tax money will pay for what I consider to be a serious disinformation campaign. Even poor people are beginning to think they should feel better off simply because they are coming across a load of advertisements on radio.

Somebody said to me that if you listened to the Government ads, you would think that by going to the community welfare officer you would get a holiday in Barbados; in fact, you cannot even get an appointment.

I do not like to interrupt a bit of Government bashing, but a vótáil has been called and I have to suspend the meeting for, I suspect, about 20 minutes. I apologise to the witnesses.

Sitting suspended at 6.49 p.m. and resumed at 7.07 p.m.

Dr. Seán Healy

May I correct the record?

Dr. Seán Healy

To clarify, the figure I used of €290 related to the poverty line, not the MESL line. It can be worked out between them.

I wish to be clear, as I did not hear everything. Are there disagreements over the universal basic income and, if so, what are they?

Could we hear more from Age Action? The point its representatives made about renters was important. I am dealing with a case that sums up the situation. It involves a couple, at least one of whom was working before he got early onset Alzheimer's disease. The couple were paying a high rent in a housing assistance payment, HAP, tenancy and were making a large top-up payment. That people have to pay large top-ups is wrong in itself. He can no longer work after getting early onset Alzheimer's, his wife cannot work and they have a large rent bill that they cannot service. What do they do now? They cannot meet their heating bills either. Whereas their income might have allowed them to pay for all of this previously, they are goosed now. To me, this is a red flag and we will see many more such cases. Will the witnesses comment on this matter?

While I agree that we must lift everyone out of poverty and a basic income should be enough to do that, we also have to reward people for going to work. In effect, though, people are often punished for going to work. If someone exceeds the social housing income threshold, he or she is banjaxed. I am dealing with a family that are just over the threshold. They are not entitled to HAP or social housing.

We have had to fight to establish if they are even entitled to emergency accommodation. We had some families who were in that position who were being threatened with eviction from emergency accommodation. On the one hand, we must make sure that people's incomes are above the poverty level, and at a dignified level, but also then ensure that people do not get punished for working. To my mind, such payments as the housing assistance payment, HAP, should be available. I do not agree with the HAP system, as I want social housing but, insofar as we are not giving social housing, people would get payments like that to make sure they can live and survive. That is as much as I can say in the time available.

Mr. Robbert Lynch

I have just one point to make in relation to all of this. We talk about rates, limits and structures but one of the things that is very often forgotten is the practical application. There is a time lag moving from welfare into work. One of the biggest concerns for people who have a social welfare payment or supports is about the possibility of retaining them if their circumstances change. A big concern is what will happen to what they have right now if they do this, and if it is affected, how long it will take to fix that. A perfect example would be somebody moving from social welfare, in particular someone on a jobseeker's payment who is considering returning to work. When the range of supports and incentives available are identified for them, their concern is that if they give up their payment, or if it is taken from them, and they have access to other things, what will they do during the downtime? They wonder where their income will come from and how they will be able to support themselves. For example, very few people are aware of the payment that is available under the supplementary welfare allowance system, which is the payment pending wages. Likewise, very few people have access to it or engage with it to support them to return to work. Having things there is not the same as having a system and process that supports, informs, encourages, and makes that available. That is a very important point to remember in regard to all of these things.

Ms Mary Murphy

I agree with most of what has been said. The situation for older persons in the private rental sector crystallises a lot of the issues facing older persons in Ireland in general. Reference was made to people developing additional care needs as they age. Never mind the problems or difficulties facing homeowners who try to get adaptations, if one is in the private rental sector and one suddenly needs wheelchair access I do not know what options are available. Similarly, if one has additional needs for heating, it is very difficult for a homeowner but it can be even more complicated for a person in the private rental sector. One of the issues this raises for us is the importance of the pension, which is the bedrock of income for older persons. We must protect that and ensure that, as people have longer working lives and are able and empowered to stay in employment, which is great - we fully support it, which is the reason we advocated for the abolition of mandatory retirement - we do not have a situation whereby older persons are remaining in work into their 70s or older because they have no other options. We want pull factors. We want them to want to contribute to society, to maintain social relationships, continue to grow as people and to learn. We want all these things, but we do not want people to work because they have no other option. The situation will deteriorate if people are in the private rental sector and the sector is not changed radically in how it is regulated and in terms of the protections for tenants. Similarly, if the pension is not improved and does not provide people with adequate incomes the situation will also deteriorate.

Dr. Seán Healy

I just want to clarify a point. There are a few things that are important to pick up from the international literature that was ignored in the commission's report. For example, the international literature shows that in terms of labour market participation, the conventional option, which we have at the moment, and UBI, have very similar outcomes. What they differ on is well-being indicators. Basic income always comes out ahead on well-being indicators and it does better than the conventional option. That should have been mentioned in the report but it was completely ignored. In fact, the impression was given in the report that the opposite is the case. Well-being was ignored and the impression was given that the opposite is the case in the labour market situation.

I could go on and on, but I will make one other point on the estimated cost of basic income. The report estimated that the cost would be so high that we would have to have a tax rate of 65%. The problem is that one can have any cost one likes on a basic income simply by changing the amount paid in basic income. Even the ESRI's recent study came to four different conclusions because it looked at four options. According to it, a basic income could cost €10 billion, €37 billion, €41 billion or €50 billion. Interestingly enough, the ESRI's communication focused completely on the €50 billion. However, all proposals which have been made in Ireland were made on the basis of Exchequer neutrality. Hence, focusing merely on gross costs makes no sense whatsoever. We have put a profound amount of work - many thousands of hours – into showing how we move from gross to net in this. Why is that? It is because people are already getting welfare payments. They are not going to get basic income on top of it, if members know what I mean. Sometimes people miss the point of the real evidence that needs to be got at to show whether we should move towards a basic income. We need to have the evidence in place and for it to be done on a credible basis by credible researchers and not by people who set out to do a hatchet job in the first place. There are plenty of those around. That is the kind of approach we are talking about. We will follow the evidence and we will go with whatever the evidence tells us. The problem we have with much of the debate around basic income is that, in particular at a political and policy level, it is not based on evidence at all.

Okay. It is also disappointing that they cite the Finnish example as if the system did not progress for a particular reason when in fact the reason the pilot was not progressed was completely political and due to a change of government. It was nothing to do with UBI itself.

Dr. Seán Healy

They also did not give the positive outcomes.

Yes, that is exactly right.

Dr. Seán Healy

Or even the partial one that was there.

That is my own particular bugbear.

I thank all the witnesses this evening. Listening to the debate it appears we could be at this for years without achieving anything. As Dr. Healy says, thousands of hours have gone into the work.

I wish to raise three points with the witnesses in the context of social welfare and taxation. Self-employed people seem to miss out on social welfare if they are out sick. They do not get the same type of supports that employed people get. They are often sole traders working on their own who have a family to rear as well. How can we deal with them within the taxation and social welfare system? After the crash in particular, a lot of small subcontractors lost their work. They were owed money and they were left without any support. It created significant problems for a cohort of people who probably were not organised and who did not have representation and were left to their own devices, silently, to look after everything. They probably had borrowings as well at the same time.

The other cohort of people I wonder about is those with disabilities. We talk about a basic income and all that entails. It has been proven that a person with a disability needs more money to live. How is that factored in when we are addressing the taxation and social welfare system?

How do we ensure we start the process of putting a payment in place for the additional costs people with disabilities have, outside cost-of-living costs? I would like our guests' opinions on that.

There is another area I worry about when we talk about social welfare and fixed incomes and getting them to a level to where people can live with dignity. I am thinking of people who want to leave social protection support to go into work and how they find, after entering the workplace, that their take-home pay, when the cost of going to work, the loss of privileges, if we can call them that, or the loss of supports like a medical card or whatever it may be are taken into account, leaves them in a position where they are worse off by working. It should be the aspiration that anybody who wants to work can work and that work will pay for them. How can we address that? It is as big a social justice issue as any other. How does a person who was unemployed for a number of years transition back into work and retain meaningful supports for maybe three to five years to give him or her the chance to do that transition back into work? I could go back on other points but I would like our guests' opinion on those three things.

Ms Susanne Rogers

I will respond some of those. We had the Indecon cost of disability report. Time has lost all meaning but I think it came out in 2021.

It was updated in 2021, yes.

Ms Susanne Rogers

It was 2021. We can see clearly there is a spectrum there but Indecon managed to put some numbers on it. The research has been done and we know what needs to be done. That report lays out very clearly an extra payment needs to be put in place that is, as the Deputy said, nothing to do with the increased cost of living we have seen in the past year or so but with the fact that, purely by virtue of having a disability, people incur extra costs. It is about who bears the brunt of those costs. We should be able to put some sort of supports in place.

When we are talking about the move from social protection into work, there are two arguments. If somebody is on welfare and in poverty, that is a welfare issue. If somebody is working and in poverty, that is about low wages and poor job quality. We also must have the discussion about reskilling and upskilling. I think of the jobs I had when I left school. You had to have good handwriting. Nobody needs good handwriting now as a skill. Good computer skills are needed. At the time the construction industry disappeared, highly skilled craftsmen lost their jobs. They were in their late 50s and early 60s. It was not that they did not have skills but they had skills that were no longer required at the time. We need to keep up with the world of work, and it has been said that as well as the expansion of the labour force, the understanding of what work means has broadened. We need to be keeping up. It is probably beyond the scope but we need to be looking at constantly reskilling and upskilling and allowing people to work for longer. The idea that a person left school, went to college, got a job, stayed in it for 40 years and retired on a good pension is long gone. People are having to pivot much more. Some have four or five careers now. A person who is in education for longer may be working well into his or her 70s and constantly learning and changing. The conversation about making work pay is about ensuring quality jobs are available. I read during the week that Ireland is second to the US when it comes to low-paid, poor quality jobs.

Dr. Seán Healy

As a principle, we should always work towards a situation where nobody is worse off if they take up a job from having been unemployed. That should be the aim and we should ensure that happens.

On the other piece Ms Rogers mentioned about the additional payment for disability costs, that payment would stay in place if there were a basic income. A person would get a basic income but they would also get that cost of disability payment as well.

My experience has been that if a person who has a disability marries, his or her spouse's income is assessed against that person's disability payment. When it comes to housing adaptation grants, if a person needs to adapt the bathroom or whatever for their disability, the income of that whole household is assessed against the person's need. That is a social injustice to people who need such adaptation work done. The only income that should be taken into account is that of the person with the disability. It is wrong and we should be highlighting it more.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

To pick up on that last point, it is important to bear in mind that, for people on a jobseeker's payment, their family or personal relationships are also taken into account. For a young person living at home, their parents' income is taken into account. If somebody is aged over 25 years and has a partner, the partner's income is taken into account. Many people who have been made unemployed can find themselves unable, at the end of their jobseeker's benefit payment, to access a jobseeker's allowance payment and can then find themselves outside the supports that may otherwise have been available to them. That includes the public employment service. The Department assures people they can drop into their local Intreo centre and so on, but that does not always seem to happen in practice and that is a challenge. For people who are longer term unemployed, the payment Mr. Lynch referenced, payment pending wages, is very important. It is a payment the Department tends not to tell people about but it could make a difference, especially if somebody goes from a weekly welfare payment to a monthly wage, as it can help them bridge that gap.

What is it called?

Ms Bríd O'Brien

Payment pending wages.

I thank Ms O'Brien.

Mr. Robbert Lynch

It is identified under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. It is effectively a discretionary payment by what is now called the community welfare officer. If a jobseeker receives an offer of employment to take up employment, they must sign off jobseeker's allowance because they are not available for work because they are taking up work. However, that person will not get paid until the end of the month or for two weeks and there is therefore a gap between the income the Department has given and the income that person will get from employment. The Department has recognised that that is a disincentive for people to take up work. Therefore a person can retain the medical card and there is a range of things he or she can do. When it comes to the reality of living from week to week, a person is relying on the income from the Department. It has said, therefore, that where a person takes up employment and there is gap of up to four weeks between signing off from a jobseeker's payment and entering work, it will be able to give that person his or her weekly social welfare payment for that period and that person does not have to pay it back.

That is obtained by going to the community welfare officer.

Mr. Robbert Lynch

Yes. When you can get to see them.

The community welfare officer is snowed under and there is a turnover time of 12 weeks, so that is not working at the moment.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

On the Deputy's question about supports for people who go from a welfare payment into work, we need to make a system, and we should be able to with all the technology at our disposal, that allows somebody making that journey, or thinking about it, to access all the information they require and make an informed choice. If something like the support Mr. Lynch has outlined is available, the system should make it accessible in a relatively straightforward manner rather than having to meet somebody in person.

Absolutely. It should be online.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

Yes. Likewise, if somebody makes the welfare to work journey and has family responsibilities, they may be able to access the working family payment. Again, there are time concerns around that. The operation of all that should be much more efficient and effective. People should not be left with this awful choice of staying on an inadequate welfare payment or going to a job that might not be a huge improvement but where they might be able to move on to something else. People feel there is a large gap in the middle. We should be able to address that and get it right. Whether some of what the Department has outlined in its December release around the working age payment will help with some of that needs further exploration. It might for some people and might create other trapdoors for others, so that will need to be explored.

Likewise, picking up in the point Ms Rogers was making, the world of work is changing. People need those supports to be able to reskill if necessary, to look at what skills they have and which of them are transferable, to investigate how to get a good job, how to apply, who to talk to and so on. Those supports should be available for everybody regardless of whether they are on a welfare payment and which one they are on. If people then make that journey and it does not work out, the journey back should not be a torturous one. We need to ensure the system is as supportive of people as possible so that we smooth out all of the bumps that are currently on the road, some of which are very big and leave people making awful choices between the devil and the deep blue sea.

There is a division in the Dáil. We will move to Deputy Lahart's questions.

I do not think I will have time.

The Deputy can put some questions or we can suspend until after the vótail.

Perhaps the witnesses would like a break. I know it is after 7 p.m.

They will be happy to hear there are not many vótála this evening.

Sitting suspended at 7.31 p.m. and resumed at 8.23 p.m.

I thank the witnesses for staying back. I sympathise with the views of the INOU on supporting the return to work. I do not think we are generous enough about that. I concur with Ms O'Brien about the back-to-work enterprise allowance running out after two years. I have experience of that in my constituency. Individuals need a bit of time if they take that route. They may have the genesis of a business idea which ends up not working. They have a need to make money at the same time to support themselves. They will often deviate from the agreed path just to support themselves for a period. That meets with reprimands and negative feedback, which I often find patronising. It is often said it can take three years for a business. I ask Ms O'Brien to develop that theme. I agree with her on it.

I am on the board of a social enterprise in my constituency. It started life with the name "Get Tallaght Working" and now has a different name. It is vital for people. I would like to hear some views about social enterprise, which is very underdeveloped in Ireland compared with our European counterparts.

The INOU also made the point about information dissemination. We had a meeting today in the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party rooms with representatives of the hospitality business. The temporary business energy support scheme was a very welcome stopgap initiative for businesses in dire straits because of suffocating energy bills. Something like €28 million out of an allocated budget of €1.2 billion has been drawn down because bureaucratically it is very challenging. In addition, businesses using bulk gas or kerosene do not qualify. I understand this may be because way back in the day someone abused the system. I do not want to malign Revenue, which does a great job. However, because Revenue decided these do not qualify, it rules out any business not connected to piped gas. It is another illustration of a remedy being set up that does not work and is just too complex. The issues are not just with the social protection but across the board.

Ms O'Brien is right in what she said about the pandemic unemployment payment. I was always amazed that it was processed so miraculously quickly. I disagree with her on one point. I take her point that 600,000 were in receipt of it and, when it was lifted, only 20,000 moved on to jobseeker's payment. However, I saw the other side of it, particularly with younger people, who went to work during the pandemic and found they were earning just marginally more than their peers who decided they would get €350 a week for doing nothing. We need to strike a balance there. They might have felt they were doing their bit of national duty during a time of emergency. That balance needs to be struck. It is just an observation on what Ms O'Brien said.

I have family members in the United States. I hope we will never get to the point where we see people over 65 packing bags at checkouts and other such tasks in supermarkets. I do not believe we have got that far yet. However, I suspect that for the man who delivers pizza to me, that is his second job. In the previous Dáil I was Dublin spokesperson for my party. While I do not want to give an indication of the precise geographical location, this happened in Dublin. Someone told me about a young garda delivering pizzas in their spare time. I get that it is happening on one level of the scale.

I return to the point on information dissemination. I am also a member of the Joint Committee on Health. The approach the Scottish have to their health system is to wrap their arms around the public, as it were, and see themselves as caring for them. Here, institutionally, the health system has kept people at arm's length. By and large the State, since its foundation, has kept health and education at arm's length. What attitudinal change can we make to how we treat people who rely from time to time on social protection?

Someone demurred - I think it may have been Ms O'Brien - when one of my colleagues asked if all the witnesses agreed with the universal payment. I would like to hear the views of whoever demurred on why they would not favour the universal payment. Those are my questions and comments.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

The back to work enterprise allowance used to be for four years. It went from 100%, to 75%, 50% and then 25%. In the 2008 crisis, it got cut to two years and the short-term enterprise allowance was introduced. Whether it will survive if they make the changes to the pay-related system is one of the questions that needs to be addressed. The Deputy made an interesting point that people say it takes about three years to get a business off the ground. For some people, it is the only chance they are likely to get seeking work.

When Springboard was introduced in the last crisis, it was very much related to where there was work. There was a striking figure in its first evaluation where once over the age of 45, people progressing into employment dropped like a stone. Therefore, self-employment is an important route. Offering people better and improved supports is important.

Our system is very rule-bound. You are expected to fit entirely into a box and if you do not, you can find yourself in all kinds of trouble.

I will give one example, if I can, of a young man in his late 30s who was doing X. I went to him because a church that was not in my constituency was looking for kind of a jack-of-all-trades caretaker for a small church and small school. He was the first person for it. He was trustworthy and all the rest of it. He just could not do that without entirely leaving. What this called for was for him to be allowed to do this to see if it worked for him, maintain it and see if it worked out for everybody. Flexibility was needed. That requires a mentor, that is, someone who you sit down with face to face and can tell your story to.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

In many ways, one could argue that a scheme like community employment or Tús should have facilitated that. Again, they tend to have certain structures in them. Perhaps that young man needed to be able to take that and try it out. At the moment, in the system, we are missing that space for developmental work and for people to get a taste of something to see what would happen if they went and did something. That is definitely a gap within our employment services, without a doubt.

On social enterprise, in our submission we talked about that. In terms of chapter 9, it is an important enterprise. For us, the key to it is, what was called in the old social economy programme, "deficient demand enterprises". They are referenced in the current policy. It many cases, they were enterprises that had got off the ground in areas where there was not a huge amount of resources, perhaps there was a lack of employment and a particular need that needed to be met. The local income was never there to ensure the business would be profitable, so there was always a need for ongoing support. Community-led social enterprises are important. They are an important part of the enterprise structure and need to be recognised as such.

The issue around information dissemination is critical. I refer to the Deputy’s point on the Scottish health system vis-à-vis the Irish public services. We would love to see a wraparound public employment service. We called for that many years ago and have sought it. It has been difficult to get traction on that. It is important, particularly for people who perhaps have more distance from the labour market and a longer journey to make, to be able to try things out. Likewise, within our labour market, there are some older workers who wish to work and ageism is a reality in it. That is the other side of it that we need to address and get right. In addition, we need to address the issues that Dr. O’Connor raised about what people who are working and paying into the pot are getting back out of it. We have concerns around some of the recommendations in the commission’s report as well. That raises questions.

On universal basic income, for us, the big issue is getting adequacy addressed and trying to get the system to acknowledge that it needs to lift people above the poverty line and ensure they can meet a minimum essential standard of living. That is the big thing we want to see pushed. Universal basic income would help with some of the issues around welfare to work, and perhaps welfare and work. The difficulty is, at the moment, I do not think either the political system or, particularly, the official system are fans of it and are willing to support it. That is a big challenge in moving forward on it. The income adequacy piece is the piece I want to see the system properly address. There has been a proposal in various different parts of policy around addressing it in respect of pensions. It has not made huge traction or progress in that. It has been difficult to get them to even consider it for working-age payments. It is absolutely essential that they move forward in that.

Ms Colette Bennett

I want to echo Ms O’Brien’s point on social enterprise. We are conscious of the shifts that have been taking place in recent years in the social enterprise sector. Once, it was a support and assurance that there would be this deficit demand and community organisations would spot the deficit within their own communities and would address it through the likes of family resource centres, cafés or whatever it needed to be. We have moved into a green area, for example, in Ballymun and there is a whole kind of circular economy social enterprise there as well. They provide not just employment but also important services within the communities they serve.

In the past while, we have seen a shift to where it is viable social enterprises once they can stand on their own two feed within a certain amount of time. That viability is determined by the qualifications of the managerial staff and how many staff who start within that social enterprise or community service’s programme will move on to something else. That has not traditionally been and nor should it be the purpose of a social enterprise; the purpose of having a programme for communities, developed by communities. For many people who work in those areas, that is their job; it is what they want and what they like doing. The pressure to move on or be deemed not viable is a shift in policy in that area. I know there have been some moves in segregating out the different types of social enterprise but bringing other more community programme aspects within that whole catch-all is potentially damaging. It is potentially undermining what the community is looking for and trying to do while it is essentially competing for resources against much higher net worth or net value social enterprises in the same space.

Dr. Seán Healy

I want to address two things. One is the issue of basic income and the question the Deputy raised. I would totally agree with Ms O’Brien that income adequacy is critical in all of this. There is no point in putting a whole lot of effort into something that winds up not providing income adequacy. In that context, as we discussed earlier about what the rate should be and so on, it has to go towards the real poverty line as set out and particularly the MESL rates and so on. That will not happen overnight and we are fully aware of that.

It is 21 years since we first proposed that the Government’s next step towards basic income should be a universal basic pension, that is, that there should a universal State pension. We already have a child benefit which, in a way, is a universal payment for children. It is not nearly adequate enough and so on, absolutely. However, the structure is there. The pension could easily be put into place as a basic income.

The comment that Ms O'Brien made is absolutely true, that there is a policy system, whether on the political side with politicians or maybe more importantly among some officials, that is very negative about this. My contention is that what these people are doing is ignoring the changing world of work and ignoring the future we are going to move towards and that basic income would be a much better way of building a future that had a place for everybody. Part of that approach involves services. I love the phrase “wraparound services”, for unemployed people absolutely, but they should not be just for them. There should be wraparound services for our whole population, combining universal basic services with universal basic income. That is the target. They are factors of the social contract and to deal with them, we need to look at our social contract. We are not going to do it tonight but that is the level we need to look at. Discussions need to take place about levels of welfare and programmes for social enterprise, and so on. We also need to look at the basic thing that holds it all together, namely, the social contract. Ireland’s social contract is badly broken. We see that day in, day out with the kind of reactions we have out there. We need to deal with that. The way to deal with it is to have a policy debate, a serious, public debate on a new social contract. We argue that we need a new social dialogue in order to generate a new social contract. That is what we want. Ms Rogers wants to make a point in response also.

Ms Susanne Rogers

I note that the Deputy used the word "decided" when he was talking about young people working or going on a PUP payment, which links to the whole area of disincentives to work. I presumed that nobody made a decision that "I am either going to get the PUP or I am going to continue to work" because I presumed the PUP payment was put in place to support people who were unable to work because of Covid-19 restrictions. That was my understanding.

That would not-----

Ms Susanne Rogers

I find that conversation about people preferring to be on a social welfare payment rather than going to work can make the argument harder when you are trying to advocate for an adequate social welfare payment.

That is a fair point.

Ms Susanne Rogers

The barriers to employment are such things as educational attainment level, transport and caring duties. The rate of social welfare as it currently stands is not a barrier to employment. I do not know how anybody would decide to remain on social welfare rather than going to work.

Okay, I want to bring in Ms Murphy and then Deputy Patricia Ryan.

Ms Mary Murphy

On the point about older persons forced to remain in employment, we want to reiterate we are also concerned about that, while recognising what Ms O’Brien said, which is that some older persons want to remain in work, and more power to them. The system should be in place for that to happen. However it is important to protect adequate State income in older age, by which I mean the pension. On that point, I want to raise something that came up in Deputy Canney’s contribution about the cost of disability. Funnily enough this disappears when it comes to older persons despite the fact that older persons are proportionally disabled, compared with the younger population. However the cost of disability is not acknowledged as a cost that they bear. It is much more about the working population. Many of the disability payments are compensation for people of “working age” who are missing out on work because of their disability. Therefore they get paid. That is what the payments are targeted at. Hence we see such things as the €500 payment for disability in budget 2023. Older people with disabilities did not get that because they do not get disability payments. Once you hit the age of 66 you lose your disability payments and go on the State pension. Beyond the difficulties that creates, the message it sends is problematic as well. It is this idea that “well now you are 66 you are not disabled any more, you are just old” and the disability is subsumed into that part of your identity. That is a concern for us when it comes to disability. It reinforces our desire for there to be a cost of age study.

Such a study is a really important point. Go ahead Deputy Lahart.

I thank the Chair and my colleague for bearing with me.

One of the things we did in the last term in the Committee on Budgetary Oversight was make the Government really conscious of equality budgeting. About three years ago, when the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, was Minister for Finance, that was the first time there was a paragraph introduced in it. Ms Murphy's comments are a reminder that it is not something to be taken for granted. The whole idea of that was to prevent the situation of which she speaks, that categories in society are not disproportionately impacted.

Going back to Dr. Healy's comment about the social contract being broken. This would be an interesting study for someone to write because in March 2020, this State entered into and delivered, with knobs on, on the social contract. That is only two and a half short years ago. What prompted that? Because there was this great feeling that the State is protecting everybody, as a constituency Deputy I can look back on that period and say very few constituents, and I have a very varied constituency demographic, had complaints. There was not a huge amounts of complaints about "This is not enough". I cannot recall one person saying "This is not enough". Was it because it was everybody? Was it because the pandemic affected the middle classes, decision-makers, business people? I ask because that is the kind of wraparound of which the State is capable. It demonstrated that it is capable of it. Too often I get the impression, and I am a Government party politician, that the crumbs falling off the table are sufficient for those who are left behind or who are disadvantaged. However I raise the point about the pandemic and how we wrapped our arms around everybody. What was different about that, aside from the catastrophic nature of it? Why can we not sustain that spirit?

Before I bring people in, the Deputy is way over his slot. I am mindful that Deputy Ryan has been waiting for the whole session so I ask people to keep their answers succinct.

Dr. Seán Healy

For us, the social contract is the critical issue underpinning the way society operates and whether things are accepted or rejected. There is an expectation that this is delivered by the State. People pay their taxes because they expect the services. In our view, the issue that leads to the breakage we see is that it is not treated as a unit. For us there are five aspects. What do people want? They want a decent economy, good services, fair taxation, good participation in shaping the decisions that affect them in society, and sustainability. Those are the five things. What we have is a system that deals almost completely with each of those individually but does not actually go across them. At the particular moment the Deputy refers to, at the start of Covid-19 just three years ago, there was a huge cohesion. One thing was that the system was working towards a single end and society wanted that end. There was a generosity about it, for example because the payment was €350 a week when the welfare payment was just €203. It was clear why there was no objection to it, when people were getting €350. Not only that but there was an openness to recognise that they were not going to keep people just because they did not make the age. There was a flexibility about how to deal with it. People were on either side crossing the boundaries between the pieces.

The critical issue for us is that these things need to be put together into a single contract.

There could be a contract for tax on the fiscal side and a contract on the economy. Sometimes people think of the economy only or the economy and services and do not look at the tax and participation issue, which is very important, or the sustainability issue. The five elements together are what we require. It is deliverable but to deliver it we need a new social dialogue. I hope I am not overdoing this but I will send the committee some documents. We have written two publications. One was generated completely by ourselves and the other involved all the traditional social partner pillars plus a range of other actors, from the OECD, the European Commission and others. Our publication is approximately 200 pages and looks at the new social contract and the five headings I have spoken about. The other is "A New Social Contract, A New Social Dialogue". Interestingly, all of the traditional pillars, including employers, trade unions, farmers, the environmental pillar and the community and voluntary pillar, agree there is a need for a new social dialogue involving all five pillars. This has not been taken up by the Government since then despite our strong urging of it and, in fairness, strong urging from other quarters.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

On the social contract and where it came from, in a sense it was after the Second World War when we had the growth of the welfare state and the sense of everyone being in it together. During the war people were literally in the trenches together and it was about rebuilding a society. There was something about the pandemic that drove a similar level of threat, whereby people felt we needed to stick together. There is also an opportunity with climate change to see that we need to work together more cohesively as a society rather than as individuals to meet the threat.

In this context the State pension is a clear example of the social contract whereby people feel we are all in this together. We all pay in and we all get a decent pension but it is not yet underpinned by law. A crucial recommendation of the Commission on Pensions and the Commission on Taxation and Welfare is that we should have a benchmarking process for social welfare payments that should include the State pension. They also recommend that we should have indexation so that when we have high inflation, as we do now, or average earnings rise dramatically, core welfare will keep track.

Putting in legal underpinnings so that people have assurances would help in very practical terms to cement part of the social contract. People would know what they will get if they pay in. The contrast is that at present there is a lot of cynical dialogue that people will never have a State pension because it will be gone by the time they get to retirement age. There is a defeatism about the ability of the State to maintain the State pension, which is now and will be for the foreseeable future the bedrock of income in older age. There is a need to re-energise this. Simply putting in place the right legislation will help to cement it as part of the social contract.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

Equality budgeting it is a very welcome development but something we need to address is the lack of socioeconomic status as a ground in our equality legislation. It needs to be included. We need to bear in mind that €350 was the initial rate and there were reduced layers depending on people's previous income. Sometimes this has got lost in some of the discussions we have had since. It is something that is important to bear in mind.

I will be as brief as possible because I know that everybody is tired and it is late at this stage. I have met Age Action, Alone and other advocacy groups for older people. Dr. O'Connor spoke about 44% of older people living in poverty. We deal with this every day on the front line in our offices. I deal with older people who are trying to decide whether to have fuel or food. Mr. Lynch spoke about community welfare officers and supplementary welfare payments. The difficulty I hear about in my office is that people are waiting for weeks on end after submitting the forms and paperwork. They are becoming disillusioned to the point that they feel nobody cares. We really need to be doing something about this. I have no doubt that community welfare officers are inundated with work. To even try to get an appointment with them at this stage is shocking. From the point of view of older persons, who come to my door as I am Sinn Féin's spokesperson on older persons, we need to be addressing the issues more readily.

I agree with the point on the bonus for disability and other bonuses that people should be getting in the cost-of-living crisis. A disability does not go away when people turn 66. If anything, it progresses to the next level. We are doing a disservice to people. We are not looking after them. They are the backbone of our communities and we need to address this in a better way. My rant is over and I have several questions. I understand the witnesses and members are tired. What I really want to know is if the witnesses were to prioritise two recommendations for implementation, what would they be and why?

Ms Mary Murphy

I can offer one recommendation from Age Action and Dr. O'Connor will offer the other. Benchmarking and indexation would be crucial to remove the politicking of deciding people's future and whether they have enough in their pockets. This should be removed and it should be made fair and routine so that people are not wondering whether there would be a Christmas bonus the following year. They should have some level of reassurance that they will have a guarantee.

Ms Susanne Rogers

For Social Justice Ireland individualisation is key. At present somebody on social welfare claiming for another adult in the household receives 0.66% of the payment. Individualisation would go a long way towards equality proofing and gender proofing. Earlier we touched on family status. At present cohabiting is considered for a couple for welfare but not for taxation. A cohabiting couple cannot claim tax free allowances or share them. This can be done only when people are married. We can see immediately that there is an anomaly. Benchmarking is another key element. It has become far more important. We need to get to adequacy first. We have already mentioned that every prebudget submission had sought an increase of €20. The increase was €12 and we are still looking for the other €8. This has to be done and then benchmarked. I know there is a lot of discussion about what benchmark would be chosen. Ours is 27.5% of average earnings. If we were asked which two we would like and I had a magic wand these are the two that would go a long way towards alleviating poverty throughout the country.

I will now be devil's advocate and ask if the witnesses were to-----

Several other contributors want to come in on this.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

The Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed would very much like to see recommendations on benchmarking. This would be very important. We included in our submission, with caveats, points on the public employment service becoming more available to a wider group of people. This would very much need to be done in keeping with its equality duty.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

Age Action would also look at the top level recommendation in chapter 4 that we need to slowly and progressively build up the tax base. Part of the point of having a Commission on Taxation and Welfare is not only to make technical fixes to things that are not working, and there are plenty of these in the report, but also to grasp the nettle that we have a lot of needs in society. We have an ageing population and we need to keep the State pension sustainable. We have ambitions for hospital beds, housing and other areas. It is important that we can take the politics out of the thorny issue of raising taxation in a sustainable way that is socially acceptable.

It comes back to the earlier point about the social contract. However, we have to pay for things. We endorse the high level recommendation that, as a society, we will have to slowly but progressively increase the tax base in order to pay for the things we need and all benefit from.

We are very aware we are becoming an old society and need to look after our elderly. That said, we listened to a presentation this morning from Barnardos and there are issues across the board. Children are going to bed hungry. We can do this whatever way we like but the issues are there. As Ms Bennett said, there are all sorts of poverty we need to deal with. If the witnesses were to reverse one recommendation, which one would it be and why? I am sorry for just throwing it at the witnesses. Maybe somebody else asked previously. If so, I apologise.

Who wants to answer first on which one recommendation they would reverse or reject?

Dr. Seán Healy

I think-----

I think Dr. Healy and I might agree on the one we would reject.

Dr. Seán Healy

I think Deputy Ryan was present when I was doing my presentation. Our whole presentation was about rejecting one recommendation: 10.8, the recommendation that basic income not be proceeded with. We believe the evidence base provided for that is daft, very inadequate and poorly researched. We are not asking the commission to recommend the introduction of a basic income, though we think it could; but they could at least allow the darn thing to be studied properly and debated transparently. We want to see the whole thing transparently. With the resistances in the system, they tend to be able to do much work behind the scenes without putting their case on the table. That, for us, is not healthy for good policy, for democracy or for priorities that might support poorer people.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

I will offer a modified answer to the question. We would like to broaden out a number of the recommendations from working age to include older persons. Whether it is public employment services or particular taxation or welfare, it is only focused on people of so-called working age, yet another branch of Government is trying to facilitate people who wish to and are capable of working for longer - to 70 and beyond, for example, with the deferred State pension. We need joined-up thinking. A number of recommendations for some reason specify working age and we would expand them to include all older persons.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

For us it is not so much about reversing the ones in these four chapters, but some of them would need to be done with care and consideration. If they were done as written, we would be concerned the outcomes would not be good.

I will finish on two questions of my own. I will start on basic income. Representatives of Social Justice Ireland know I am a fully paid-up advocate for basic income so we do not need to start with the merits of it. I was involved in my party’s work on that. I agree with Social Justice Ireland's rejection of the commission’s position on it. The section on it was not particularly detailed. When I hear people using language around universal basic income that says we need other concrete proposals, I always think that is telling. Perhaps it is just an idea they are uncomfortable with. We often fall into the trap of discussing universal basic income as a panacea for everything and that is never the suggestion. It has to be alongside universal access to housing and services. It does not always make sense to me why people cannot grasp that universal access to financial security would be part of a universal safety net. An area I struggle with sometimes in researching this is how we get right the targeted measures around poverty in the implementation of a basic income. I do not expect universal basic income to solve employment or issues around gender balance and childcare, but how we calibrate a system to get to that targeted poverty is something I struggle with and I would be interested in any thoughts the witnesses might have.

Dr. Seán Healy

We have done much work on that and have made concrete proposals on what a package of targeted initiatives would look like. The shorthand version is that most of the initiatives there at the moment that are targeted for such outcomes or groups, such as people with disabilities, ill people, carers and a range of others, would stay in place. Every time we have proposed a basic income and done the work on costing it, those costs are in there. We have been making basic income proposals for 30 years and have never made one that did not have those initiatives in there. A person who is long retired but was a very good civil servant in her day and did many things in many Departments said at a meeting once that she was happy because at the time she was running the section in the Department of Social Protection that would not be closed down as a result of the introduction of a basic income. The point being it was the section dealing with all those kinds of issues. If there are such issues, they can be targeted. I do not think there is any great problem with it. They are targeted in the present system and we are already paying for them. We should probably be paying more for most, if not all, of them. That is a separate issue. If we want to jump from partial to full services of these targeted kinds, in the comparison we should put that on both sides of the analysis.

I understand.

Dr. Seán Healy

We can show at any time what the whole thing looks like.

I have read it. I will move on to my second question. I appreciate Dr. O’Connor is pointing out the main thrust of the report is that we need to expand the tax base. I do not know if he has watched the other sessions, but when we have sectoral interests come in, we find it most difficult to get anybody to accept that we need to accrue more tax to the State. One way to do that would be to make employment as available to people as we can and as possible for people as we can. It came out of our discussions post Covid that there are cohorts of people who, for a number of reasons, find it harder to move back into the workforce, whether they were on the PUP or removed themselves from the workforce for a time. Of those cohorts, the older group stood out as people who struggled to upskill or did not feel it was possible to go back. Witnesses have referred to young people being supported and getting public employment services right and have commented on chapter 9. We have talked a little bit about employment supports but, in terms of young people and the 50 and upwards groups, how do we encourage people to upskill, move on to new sectors and feel they are wanted in the workforce and that it works for them to be at work?

Ms Mary Murphy

There are things to be done to encourage the individuals but I would redirect focus to make our society more receptive to older individuals seeking work. There is a big cultural piece that needs to be done, which has been mentioned, on ageism. That is a prevalent social problem which causes immense suffering and disadvantage to older persons.

I would particularly say, in the context of employment, that it is of particular disadvantage to older women who want to seek out employment. We are so early on in our awareness of this that just starting the conversation is the almost the main thing we can ask for at this stage. It is about getting people talking about this and being aware.

You would expect the State to lead on that. It is a huge employer. When it comes to employment and disability, where Ireland also does quite badly, the State is expected to lead. We have increased our expectation in Departments from 3% to 6%. I notice that in the UK, 10% of the workforce should self-identify as having a disability. Maybe we could look at something like that for older persons.

Dr. Nat O'Connor

Absolutely. A quota is one way of doing that but another thing to look at in terms of the structures is mandatory retirement. If there is a mandatory retirement clause as there is in many private sector contracts and, indeed, in public sector contracts - it may be 70 years but it is still mandatory retirement - an employer might think that if they are only going to have an employee for six or eight years before he or she must retire, they will not make the investment in that person's training. It is systematic in national training programmes, skill strategies and so on, but also in employers' decision-making, that when employees reach a certain age, as older workers they are blurred out. They are no longer considered the core audience. So much of our training focuses on the young and middle-aged worker but there is no reason for that.

There is a cost to training. I believe it was suggested at one stage that €15,000 was the cost of a new staff member in terms of training and administration. Is that a factor?

Dr. Nat O'Connor

It is a factor but if there was no mandatory retirement, the employer could retain a lot of that knowledge within the organisation. If a worker is, say, 60 years of age and wants to retire at 65 or 66 years of age, there may need to be some sort of subsidy or consideration for employers who wish to invest heavily in training. Neither the system nor any incentives should bar employers from investing in the training of older workers. That is the key message.

Ms Mary Murphy

That is in part a misconception. First, employers reap the benefits of training quite quickly. There are very clear short-term benefits. Further, the risk of an employee leaving after two or three years is not that different between someone in their 30s and someone in their 60s.

There is no such thing as a job for life anymore. People move on anyway.

Ms Mary Murphy

Yes, exactly, so it does not hold as true. It might mean there is a wider problem with incentives for employers to train but it cannot be particular to the situation of older persons. On mandatory retirement, we must think of the experience of someone in their 60s in an office or other work environment. The employer can have all sorts of policies and initiatives - there may be training days and all these things around age-positivity and inclusion - but if the worker knows that when they turn 65 they are out of there no matter what, that as soon as they hit that birthday they are gone and have no say in it, the benefit of age-positive policies is not going to be particularly pronounced because people know that their presence in their workplace is dictated by their age and nothing else.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

Some employers invest in training their workforce and others do not. That is not just an issue for older workers but also for younger workers. We held some focus groups with young people recently to look at what would help them and how employers could support them to get work. These would be young people who would be quite distant from the labour market. People's experiences were quite striking in what they did or did not find when they got a job. Larger employers who are at the upper end of the labour market know that if they do not mind their staff, they will lose them and possibly to their competitors. At the other end of the labour market, many employers feel that if they train someone, that person will just go down the road and work for your man. There is a whole cultural issue in our labour market around addressing how upskilling and supporting people to upskill is so important for all of us across our lifetimes, particularly when the world of work is changing. We will need to decarbonise. There is the whole issue of digitalisation and automation. The world of work is changing. All of us need to be able to be supported over our lifetimes to try to address that. For people who did not get access to good education outcomes when they were younger, it has a cumulative impact over their lifetime. It is often those who got a better start who end up in employments where the employer knows that they had better train Neasa and they will lose her if they do not. That cumulative impact is an issue. We need serious cultural change in our labour market to get that appreciated by a broader cohort of employers who will invest in their staff.

That might be something to use our national training fund for.

Ms Bríd O'Brien

Yes.

Mr. Robbert Lynch

As we noted in our documentation, one thing to be addressed is giving the opportunity to people to do this. The welfare system is very black and white; you are on a payment or you are not. This is particularly the case with jobseekers. People do not have the opportunity to try, to test or to give something a go on the basis that if it works, that is great; and if it does not, they can come back. It is very much the case that someone is on a payment or they are not. You can work a maximum number of days, but if you work any more than that there is no payment. That needs to be looked at in the context of hours-versus-days in order to give people the opportunity to test the water and see if it works out and if it is for them. If it is not, they should have the safeguard of returning to their payment while they continue to look for relevant and appropriate work.

Ms Susanne Rogers

This almost echoes the Chair's point about working and disability. Our approach is binary. You are capable of work or you are not. There is nothing in between that says a person might be capable of work but only for five mornings a week, or might be capable of doing certain work if certain supports are put in place by their employer. You are either in or you are out. As we age, disabilities come with that. Looking at the flexibility around an individualised approach is key. The Chair was talking about supporting older workers and older women. As someone who has had a couple of career pivots in my lifetime, they just get really hard as you age.

I agree.

Ms Susanne Rogers

There can be an element of thinking "I'm just tired, and I don't know if I can do this again". It gets harder each time. When you are in your 50s, having to go back and retrain and wonder if I have got one more spin in me is a really difficult position to be in. I think the Chair is right that the supports need to be there to allow people to train and not just take any job that comes along because their jobseeker's payment has run out. It is really important that instead, such people are able to job-match.

There are some very interesting things for us to think about as we write reports on this. As no others wish to ask further questions, I will conclude by apologising for the late finish. We were disrupted by the Dáil votes. I thank our witnesses for attending this evening. We hope to see them again.

The joint committee adjourned at 9.18 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 February 2023.
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