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COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND PRIVILEGES (Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform) debate -
Wednesday, 17 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 2

Presentation by Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations.

Witnesses: Mr. Richard Condron, Mr. Adrian Ryan and Mr. John Healy.

I welcome the witnesses to the sub-committee. As they have been in the Visitors Gallery, they will know my patter. I thank them for responding to our invitation for submissions and attending in person. This is an all-party committee comprised of Senators Dardis, Brian Hayes, Ryan and O'Toole and myself. Each group appears before us for 30 minutes and we have managed time well so far. As Members of this House, we have full privilege while witnesses attending have qualified privilege. I say this but I presume there is no need for anyone to get too worked up about it.

As we have read the written submission, if the witnesses would like to give us a synopsis, we would be glad to hear it. The main questioners today are Senators Ryan and Dardis but we can all chip in.

Mr. Condron

I would like to introduce my colleagues, Mr. Adrian Ryan and Mr. John Healy. The Irish Conference of Professional Services Associations welcomes the opportunity to make a submission to the sub-committee on Seanad reform. We have already made a written submission and will now make an oral presentation. The conference is an umbrella group of ten affiliate associations representing up to 50,000 members. It is critical from our point of view that the voices of our members are heard, the reason this opportunity to make a presentation is so welcome.

In our initial submission we provided the committee with a brief outline of the Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations and described in some detail how the association nominated candidates to contest the election to the Seanad via the Labour Panel. We described in depth how seriously we took this privilege and showed how nominated candidates who successfully secured election to the Seanad assisted the Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations throughout their tenure in the Seanad. In this presentation we will expand on our original submission by dealing with membership of the ICPSA, representation in the Seanad - the ICPSA experience, the Seanad electoral process and some suggestions for the way forward.

During its formative years, the ICPSA represented a significant number of public service workers, including members of the teaching profession and civil servants. These trade unions are no longer affiliated to the Irish Conference of Professional Services Associations and, since their departure, the ICPSA has granted affiliate status to three Garda representative associations and two Permanent Defence Force representative associations. These associations alone represent between 20,000 and 25,000 employees and their unique status within society has been a challenge to the ICPSA. We, in the ICPSA, are acutely aware of the fact that these employees provide a necessary and often dangerous service for society and their ultimate goal is our security but they are excluded from all pillars of social partnership. In addition, because of the necessary restrictions imposed on these employees, coupled with the fact that they are often deployed during disputes to maintain essential services, special consideration must be made to ensure their voice is heard.

In this environment, membership of the Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations is extremely important, partly because of the associations' Seanad nomination rights. These rights mean that the voices of members of the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána can be heard in Seanad Éireann through Senators nominated by the ICPSA who successfully contest the Seanad election.

The ICPSA has been fortunate in that it has managed to build a successful working relationship with the ICPSA nominated candidates successfully elected to Seanad Éireann. In our written submission we mentioned the fact that the ICPSA nominated Senators attended our annual delegate meeting and, thus, were kept informed of the issues affecting affiliates. Motions passed at the annual delegate meeting set our agenda and the ICPSA Senators are particularly active in this regard. Thus, during the course of the year, the ICPSA meets regularly with the ICPSA Senators and progress on our agenda is discussed and additional research material provided, if appropriate. It can, therefore, be concluded that our relation with the Senators nominated by the ICPSA are valuable and important to the association and without their assistance we feel it is unlikely we would be able to make the progress we have made.

ICPSA nominated Senators have been invaluable to our affiliates in times of crisis. A prime example of this was the difficulty surrounding the development of the White Paper on defence. During this period our ICPSA nominated Senators provided both RACO and PDFORRA with significant support through representing us on the issue and providing us with timely access at Government level. More recently, another affiliate, the Irish Bank Officials Association, received similar support on the issue of out-sourcing information technology services from Bank of Ireland. Thus the ICPSA nominated Senators provide an invaluable service and, as a consequence, our experience of the Seanad has been very positive. We put this down to the maintenance of an active and vibrant relationship with the Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations' nominated Senators.

Once the ICPSA exercises its Seanad nomination rights, it has no further say in the electoral process. In addition, unlike other interest groups, the ICPSA has no automatic right to Seanad representation and no voting rights whatsoever. There is a view prevailing that all graduates be given the opportunity to vote in Seanad elections. The implementation of this view may mean an alteration of the university constituencies and, possibly, an increase in the number of Seanad seats available within them.

There is also a view that the voices of Irish people living abroad and persons from Northern Ireland be represented in Seanad Éireann. The ICPSA agrees with these views in principle and would view such a development as a positive step towards making the Seanad more participative and, thereby, more relevant. The more representative the Seanad becomes, the more society will come to realise, as we have, that it is an important forum which not only monitors the work of the Lower House but also provides an input the Dáil cannot.

The ICPSA is also conscious that, apart from the university constituency, the electorate for the various panels consists of Members of the Oireachtas and county councillors. It has been suggested that the electorate is very narrow, and if society is to take the Seanad more seriously, perhaps the electorate should be extended. We, in the ICPSA, are undecided on this matter but believe consideration could be given to extending voting rights to nominating bodies. Overall, the Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations contends that the extension of representation to all graduates, emigrants and persons from Northern Ireland would in principle be a positive development which should not dilute or diminish the rights of groups such as ourselves.

The ICPSA is a very positive supporter of Seanad Éireann and we sincerely believe that if more groups had a similar experience of Seanad Éireann, its reputation as a necessary and effective Upper Chamber would be enhanced accordingly. There is no doubt that many quarters in society believe the Seanad is a redundant institution which should, as a consequence, be disbanded. We, in the ICPSA, believe those who hold this view are misinformed and fail to understand the fact that a properly configured Upper Chamber brings a different but necessary perspective to the political process that cannot be provided by the Lower Chamber.

Very often, Senators are elected or nominated on this basis - that they can bring their experience and/or expertise to the Oireachtas, thereby providing a perspective which could not be obtained via the Lower House. If the Seanad is to rebut the "redundant" argument, it must become more inclusive. We, in the ICPSA, believe increasing both the representation and the electorate may make the Seanad even more relevant and enable it to increase its influence, thus rebutting the "redundant" argument.

We will now have questions. We will all chip in, but the first questioner will be Senator Ryan.

I thank the ICPSA for its submission, which I found extremely interesting. The ICPSA clearly sees the people it nominates as being accountable to it and being there to be of assistance in a special way to the organisation. It would not be a view that other nominating bodies have expressed here. Perhaps they were just being careful and not saying it as I think most believe it.

The delegation mentioned the IBOA, the three Garda representative associations and the two representative bodies of the Permanent Defence Force. What other organisations are affiliated? Can the delegation give me some idea of the aggregate number of members affiliated to the organisation? It is obviously a quite extensive organisation. Excuse my ignorance, but how does the ICPSA settle on seven candidates to nominate? Is that what the law prescribes because of its membership?

I express my thanks to Senators for meeting and affording us the opportunity to first make a written submission and now an oral submission. The ICPSA comprises three affiliate organisations representing gardaí, two representing the Defence Forces, the IBOA, the CityBank staff association, the Irish Distillers staff association, the Dublin Institute of Technology allied staff associations and the church body staff associations. It is quite a varied group which has come about historically.

As regards the question on the seven nominations, the ICPSA may, in accordance with legislation on the sub-panels, nominate a maximum of seven. It is important to say that, perhaps in the distant past, the association did not always use that maximum number, but we have done so for the last two to three Seanad elections. Taking account of the huge numbers of applicants for such nominations, we now have a policy of using the seven in full. We do not have a role after that, and what the electorate decides is a different matter. As regards numbers, the Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations represents between 45,000 and 50,000 affiliate members.

I join in the welcome to the ICPSA and thank the delegation for its presentation. One of the things I notice from the documentation is that prospective candidates must be fully paid up members of a trade union or staff association. Have there been any instances of people coming knocking at the door for a nomination and then joining the association, or is it required that they already be members?

As honorary secretary, I am responsible for receiving all applications. In all cases applicants who have been considered - which is different from all applicants - by our executive council would have long-standing membership of trade unions or such-like associations.

Does the ICPSA make a conscious effort to achieve a balance between the parties in terms of its nominations?

It is fair to say the nominations we have given have always been reflective of the varying applications we have got from various political parties——

That is a "Yes".

It is a Kerry "Yes".

It is a "Yes". Three of our candidates were successful in the 2002 Seanad election - Senators Leyden and Feeney from Fianna Fáil and Senator Cummins from Fine Gael. We have always felt it is important to reflect across various political parties.

One of the things that interests me is that the ICPSA is somewhat unusual in terms of the nominating bodies in regarding the people elected from the panel as its people, so to speak. In other words, there is a continuing liaison, and the ICPSA sees them as being advocates for it in the Seanad. That seems somewhat unusual to me. Is the ICPSA aware that other bodies regard their nominees in the same light?

We are not, to be honest. My organisation was founded in the early 1990s and is a relative newcomer to the ICPSA. The Garda Síochána associations were formed in the late 1970s. Having the Seanad nomination right is very important. More importantly, we feel that, in return for interviewing the candidates and going through an extensive selection process that culminates in a voting process by the ICPSA council, there has to be some form of quid pro quo. If these nominees are elected, they will represent the Labour Panel in the Seanad. We represent the interests of labour in our particular constituencies and make no excuse for the fact that we have given these individuals the nominations and that, as in every part of the industrial relations process, there has to be a quid pro quo in return.

Who makes the selection? I take it the general membership is not involved in the process.

No, the council makes the selection. Where a ballot occurs, the executive council votes in accordance with its membership. In other words——

Who are the people on the executive council?

There would be one member from each of the affiliates and then an officer body consisting of the president, the vice-president, the honorary treasurer and the honorary secretary.

How many would vote?

Ten. There is pro rata, weighted voting in deciding nominations.

Is it relative to the size of the organisation?

That is right.

Mr. Condron

It is relative to the size of the individual affiliates.

The delegation talked about the electoral process, and it would seem to be a common frustration among nominating bodies that while they put forward the names, they cannot influence the outcome of the election. In the particular case of the ICPSA, which deals with the Defence Forces and the Garda, can the delegation appreciate that there is an attendant risk in bringing the Garda and the Defence Forces closer to politicisation if the electorate is drawn from the membership of, let us say, the ICPSA?

Not really. The other argument is to look at the university constituency, which actually has a right to elect Senators. A large proportion of the people I represent are graduates, from NUI, Galway, in particular. They all exercise their franchise in Seanad elections and are canvassed by prospective candidates. Those who are elected represent their interests in the Seanad. I do not see much difference between that situation and the one I was suggesting.

Is it a frustration for the ICPSA to nominate people but not be part of the electorate?

The frustration arises from the fact that being a nominating body could mean we would never get a Senator. We are given representation only on the basis that the candidate we select secures election but if the candidate is not elected, we have no voice.

The ICPSA seems to be reasonably comfortable with the knowledge that Senators have. In its written submission it mentions speaking from a position of detailed knowledge which is unusual, as much of the criticism we have heard so far is that the knowledge is not available. We contend that there is a cross-section of expertise which does not specifically result from the panel system. In other words, the original intention may not have been fulfilled but the people here do have a range of expertise and the delegation seems to agree with this.

Yes, we do. We have also found in our organisation that where there is insufficient knowledge of the workings of some of our affiliates, perhaps the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána, those successfully elected to the Seanad do have meetings. As we state in both of our submissions, we meet them regularly and make every effort to brief them on the ongoing matters that affect us. When we had difficulty - as the Senator well knows - with the development of the White Paper on defence, our ICPSA Senators were invaluable. They could not have been so without having developed a basis of knowledge before they could make the representations.

That is not unusual. I saw recently on British television that Peter Bottomley MP represented black police officers in Britain. It is quite common for an MP to be the official spokesperson or representative of a grouping, whatever it may be, as well as being a member of a political party.

That is right.

Therefore, it is not unusual in other parliamentary settings. The ICPSA has about 50,000 members. If it moves to a situation where everyone can vote, does it envisage that each of those members would vote for this vocational panel, or that their representative organisations would vote?

We are undecided about that. One view is that perhaps the nominating body could have a type of vote and the other view is that perhaps every member should vote but that might make the process very unwieldy. That was the fear expressed at our last executive council meeting but it does not serve the Seanad well to have such a narrow electoral base.

Yes, exactly.

From the media point of view it gives the impression that there is a club here that functions in a circle whereby county councillors vote for Senators and so on. That is not our experience. Extending the voting to a wider community can only enhance the reputation of the Seanad.

Has the ICPSA thought about the boundaries of this wider electorate?

We thought about whether as a body we should exercise a vote, or each of our affiliate associations or our members have a vote. Perhaps if all our members had a vote, it would be unwieldy. It might suit to exercise a vote in the same way as we exercise it in nominating the candidates, in other words, a weighted vote as Mr. Healy outlined it. I would not come down hard and fast on what way to vote because at our last meeting the council was undecided as to how that should be.

How many put themselves forward for nomination in the last Seanad election?

At the last election we had about 24 inquiries.

How many pursued it?

Nineteen of those remained valid.

The ICPSA submission was very frank and open. Did the council sit around then and go through the 19 or did it call them in for an interview or what did it do?

Those who were most active approached us personally and each of the ten affiliate organisations contacted us as well as meeting us.

We understand all that.

I can only speak for our own organisation, the Garda Representative Association. When it comes to a point like that, we decide as an objective committee which of those named applicants will receive our vote at council. Most of the ten affiliates are the same in that they have met and listened to and understood the applicants and come to that nominating meeting with a view point.

The committee would then opt for those most likely to succeed.

Yes, because it is important to us not only that whoever we nominate would support our issues, quite apart from the great work they do here on the national stage. It is equally important that they be elected and electable.

The committee makes a judgment on their probability.

It is fair to say that.

Yes. I am sorry, I do not mean to sound critical.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Mr. Condron

It is essentially an interview process.

That is perfectly reasonable. All we are trying to do here is to look at the processes different groups use. Effectively, the ICPSA takes the ten associations or organisations it represents but each has in front of it the 19 names still standing. These are discussed at the executive committee meeting of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, the GRA, the two Army groups, etc., and each organisation decides on either a name or a priority list of names which it brings back to the next meeting. The final nomination meeting must be a short one or does the committee go through a charade of long discussions despite the fact that everyone of the ten people has a shopping list and a slate?

No. There is an election. In other words at the last——

Everybody there is mandated at that point. They say we are giving number one to this person, and number two to that person, and so on. I have been through this and I am not saying it in any critical way. I am on the other side of this equation and have seen it work also. Everybody knows what he or she is doing on walking into the meeting.

Almost. There would be a short discussion.

The process of the panels is not really Byzantine.

No, it is not.

It is simply that different people do it differently. I want to work out how the ICPSA does it. It says it is a normal process and conducted by secret ballot. How can the committee have a secret ballot in which some have weighted votes?

If someone has four votes, he or she gets four papers and votes. We bring in an auditor or some independent professional to count the votes.

That is all right.

Mr. Condron

There is an independent scrutiny.

Therefore, the final vote is by secret ballot.

Do people tend to keep their views secret?

Some organisations do.

Mr. Condron

One hears rumours.

The ICPSA is an organisation where information is power.

It is remarkably proportionate.

It is very interesting that the ICPSA's rate of success is three out of seven.

The ICPSA is more intimately familiar with the system than some of the nominating bodies.

I would say it is. The organisation's written and oral submissions have pointed up the vibrant relationship which can exist between a grouping such as the ICPSA and the people it nominates. Its submission was refreshing and we thank its representatives for coming and sharing it with us. We will reflect on it, particularly as we compile our full report at the end of the process. The members of the delegation have shared much of their knowledge and greatly helped us.

Mr. Condron

I thank the sub-committee for inviting us to make an oral presentation. We wish it well in its deliberations.

The witnesses withdrew.

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