Good morning. We are glad to welcome the representatives of the University of Limerick and its affiliate, Mary Immaculate College. We are an all-party committee set up to review the issue of Seanad reform. We thank you for making a submission and coming here today. Our members are Senators Dardis, Brian Hayes, Ryan and O'Toole. We have full privilege in the Chamber, but the members of the delegation have only qualified privilege. We have 20 minutes for the presentation. We have read the submission and I suggest you synopsise what you have to say after which our two main questioners, Senators Dardis and Ryan, will ask questions.
Presentation by University of Limerick and Mary Immaculate College.
Witnesses: Mr. Seán Donlon, Mr. Roger Downer, Mr. Paul Butler and Ms Noreen O'Loughlin.
Mr. Donlon
I thank the Chairman and members of the sub-committee. The sub-committee's remit is comprehensive and complex and its recommendations, obviously, could include anything up to, and including, a constitutional referendum. By contrast, what we raise in our written submission is simple and the problem is easily solved. Assuming that the committee recommends the continuation of university representation in the Seanad, we ask that graduates of the University of Limerick would have identical rights with graduates of the NUI colleges and the University of Dublin.
I recall that when the legal structures for universities were being put in place, most recently in the 1997 Act, it was envisaged that the anomaly under which some graduates had representation in the Seanad while others did not would be corrected. In February 1998 a Seanad electoral higher education Bill was introduced in this House which unfortunately did not make it to the Statute Book and in 2002, yet again, UL graduates did not have a vote.
The simple solution, which we believe would deal with our problem, would entail the enactment of that 1998 Bill or similar legislation. I hope the Oireachtas will consider enacting such a measure relatively quickly. It may be some time before something emerges from the sub-committee's deliberations whereas if the 1998 Bill or a similar Bill was introduced, UL graduates would perhaps have a vote by the time of the next election.
Mr. Downer
I thank members for the opportunity to attend today. Not surprisingly, I support and endorse fully the comments of the Chancellor. We feel it is inequitable that graduates of a university, recognised under the Universities Act 1997, are denied the right to vote for representation in the Seanad when graduates of other universities recognised under the very same Act are granted that privilege.
Senators may be interested to know that our records indicate that between 1976, when we conferred our first degrees, and 2002, the total number of graduates who received a degree from the university is 21,998. That is the size of the electorate to which we refer. Paradoxically, this number includes 153 graduates, from 1976 and 1977, who were conferred with NUI degrees and are entitled to vote. However, their colleagues who graduated in 1978, one year later, are denied the vote because by that time the University of Limerick had degree-granting privileges. It is an anomalous situation we face. The figures I outlined include recent graduates of Mary Immaculate College who were conferred with a University of Limerick degree. I speak on their behalf also.
I thank the representatives for their attendance and written submission. The committee is probably of the unanimous view that the present system is wrong and that the franchise should be extended.
Particularly those of us who want the option to canvass primary teachers' votes.
We do not allow any open politicking here.
Senator O'Toole is particularly sensitive about what happened in Mary Immaculate College in 1994. It is obviously a sore point with him.
We can take it as read that there is general consensus that the vote should be inclusive. The area we need to explore is how far we push out the frontier. The majority view from what we have heard - the representatives of the University of Limerick appear to agree - is that the vote should be confined to degree holders. What is the University of Limerick view in terms of going beyond degree level? Should a diploma or certificate holder from a third level college be included?
A broader question concerns whether the university constituency should exist. It has been put to us that 50% of people now attend third level institutions. All of us present are graduates. If the graduate cohort in both Houses is increasing as a result of increasing participation in third level education, why would it be necessary to have a separate constituency for third level?
Mr. Downer
In preparing this brief we were simply requesting equity in the current position and did not debate the appropriateness or otherwise of expanding the franchise. We were simply asking that our graduates be afforded the same privileges as graduates of other universities identified under the Universities Act 1997.
Could we provoke Mr. Donlon into giving a view on this?
Mr. Downer
Let us say that from now on, I am speaking on a personal basis, not as a representative of the University of Limerick.
We understand that.
Mr. Downer
To be honest, I object to elitism. If I had my druthers, I would probably not extend a franchise to a particular group. Having said that, I think we can mount a strong defence based upon the outstanding performance of university Senators through the years. I have no difficulty in taking that side of the argument but, personally, I object to elitism.
I thank Mr. Downer for his straightforward reply.
Would anybody else like to express a view on the issue?
Mr. Donlon
I agree with W.B. Yeats on this. In 1927 he said the Seanad was a place for people of ability, not necessarily for people of representation. The track record of Senators over the last 60 years has been outstanding in terms of their contribution to public life. The university Senators have made a significant difference and this has been recognised. I notice from a vox pop taken yesterday or the previous day before, most people asked to name a Senator named a university Senator with the exception, naturally enough, of the Chairman.
I am thankful for that, even though one caustic remark was made.
Mr. Donlon
I heard that too.
The vox pop was taken in Athlone.
I meant to read the Constitution. The delegates have made a suggestion that the legal age for membership of the electorate should be reduced from 21 years to 18. I presume they mean the legal age at which a person could be elected to the Seanad. I am not aware of a 21 year age limit. However, the likelihood of somebody graduating at 18 years is a rather remote, although perhaps occasional, possibility.
Mr. Donlon
It is theoretically possible, but unlikely to arise in practice.
I believe the age limit relates to membership rather than ability to vote. In that regard, I agree completely with the witness. The reference to 21 years is an issue which was overlooked when the Constitution was being amended. It should go as it is entirely wrong.
As a new university - my question also takes account of some high level contacts I have with UL - have the delegates any thoughts in the context of something as big as a single constituency of graduates of at least one quarter of a million of dispensing with the use of paper in the voting process? Having regard to the current emphasis on information technology, could we devise an electronic voting system for such an election that would be both efficient and secure?
Mr. Downer
The Senator's contact in the University of Limerick in this field is much more knowledgeable on this matter than I am as he is an IT specialist. However, I see no reason to prevent us from taking a leadership role in moving towards a paper-less election. I would, however, avoid the chad problem.
The postal problem is the biggest single issue.
Mr. Donlon
Mr. Butler may wish to comment on this. Much of the alumni association's network has been created on a paper-less basis.
Mr. Butler
It has. It is very largely web-based now, whereby people can update their contact details and so on. With regard to paper-less voting, the whole area of encryption has to be looked at rather more closely. There have been some queries in that regard. There has been a feeling that some railroading has occurred.
I noted the point made by the witness regarding elitism. That is a crucial point on which I agree absolutely. The reality is that, for many of us, the only way into the Seanad system was through the university representation. I found it very difficult to make an early decision in that regard, for the reasons the witness outlined. However, given the existing situation, on which I take the witness's point, may I take the matter a step further? Suppose we take the approach of getting rid of the elitist aspect and creating some form of universal suffrage or, at least, a wider franchise for the Seanad, have the delegates any thoughts on how ordinary people - non-politicians - might have an input in voting for the second House in a bicameral legislature?
Mr. Downer
Again, I speak as an individual.
That is understood and appreciated.
Mr. Downer
I believe there is a very important constitutional role for a strong Upper House. However, I have in mind an Upper House which is not representational, which is above the level of party politics and acting independently in the best national interests. That is how I see it.
How does one achieve that?
Mr. Downer
That is a problem. My ideal answer is that I would simply appoint them because I understand the requirements.
One assumes the witness would adopt a benevolent approach.
He could look into his heart.
Mr. Downer
The key is to have a system which provides the form of broad expertise and neutrality which such a body needs.
How are the Members to be selected?
Mr. Downer
Perhaps some appropriate body could deal with the election of a large number.
An electoral college?
Mr. Downer
Yes.
Thank you.
That is very interesting. As an aside, there is a debate today on abolishing the remaining hereditary peers in the House of Lords. It will be on the basis of jobs for the boys and girls from now on.
Perhaps we can turn to the position of the MaryImmaculate College, now an affiliate college of the University of Limerick. Ms O'Loughlin referred to the previous arrangement for conferring qualifications - was that done by University College Galway?
Ms O’Loughlin
No, it was UCC.
The graduates can no longer vote for me.
Yes; others are also affected. Did the college make a major issue of its graduates' votes being cut off?
Ms O’Loughlin
I was not in the college at the time. This has been an ongoing issue for a long time. The difficulty is that, whereas I and other B.Eds who were students of Mary Immaculate College during the former arrangement have a vote in the elections for the Seanad, other B.Eds now teaching in classrooms have been through the same programme and have the same professional status, but do not have a vote in the elections. That is the anomaly to which other speakers referred. It is one of our biggest problems, in terms of brethren who have votes and others who do not. The same applies to our B.As who have graduated through the link with the UL system. They have no vote, whereas prior to 1994-95, our B.As were NUI graduates from UCC. That is our issue.
Did that anomaly first arise in 1994?
Ms O’Loughlin
The first B.Eds graduated from UL in 1994 and the first B.As in 1995.
That really involves a discrimination within a discrimination. A right that formerly existed no longer applies. While I appreciate that the witness will not have precise details, what proportion of those former students of Mary Immaculate College who had a vote actually exercised it? Did they vote?
Ms O’Loughlin
I believe so, but I cannot be sure as I do not have that information and it would be difficult to find it. However, I expect they did vote. They would be much easier to access than graduates of other universities as many of them remain locally based.
They stay in Ireland.
Ms O’Loughlin
Yes, for the greater part. In general, I would expect that those to whom ballot papers were actually delivered returned them.
Let us take a hypothetical situation. If a situation arose in which all alumnae of the University of Limerick were to be given a vote, would the delegation envisage the registers and procedures being operated within the university?
Mr. Donlon
Yes. First, the records of the university are very complete and up to date. Perhaps because it is a newer university, it is easier to maintain the register. I wish to make a further point. As members of the sub-committee may know, I worked abroad for most of my life. I found that NUI and Trinity graduates living abroad were very proud of their right to vote in the university elections and went to great lengths to cast their votes. Frequently, in the run-up to Seanad elections, Irish Embassies and Consulates were inundated by graduates who had not received their voting papers and were seeking advice on the matter.
That is a very good point. We had been wondering how many Irish overseas graduates were actually voting. It is a distinct link with home.
Mr. Donlon
Yes. The University of Limerick has a number of alumni branches overseas.
Mr. Downer
We have branches in Boston, New York, San Francisco, one in Germany, a United Kingdom branch in London and an east Asia branch.
Having dealt with similar situations, I fully understand what Mr. Downer has outlined. One of the difficulties is that, although Boston may be full of Irish graduates, the election papers go to addresses in Limerick, Kerry or Dublin as the case may be. That underlines the importance of updating the registers.
While I appreciate that alumnae associations would be involved in fund raising, academic matters and so on, has there been an active approach through the UL alumnae association to update the register?
Mr. Butler
Yes, that has been done very actively over a number of years. We are quite fortunate, being a young university dating from 1976, that we have been able to keep in contact with virtually all of our graduates. Of 21,998 graduates, there are only approximately 117 for whom we have no valid address. We have addresses for all the others.
The proportion of those who are out of contact is very small.
On a matter of detail, do I understand correctly that a single register is maintained for the University of Limerick? For example, where the university awards degrees to graduates of Mary Immaculate College, does the responsibility for conducting subsequent elections fall to the university rather than the college?
Mr. Butler
That is quite right. The numbers are inclusive of students of Mary Immaculate College conferred with degrees by UL.
I appreciate that we are running out of time, but I would like to ask a final question about something in Mr. Donlon's area of expertise. It is outside the scope of this debate. There was a great deal of discussion about the representation of emigrants. From Mr. Donlon's experience as a diplomat, does he feel that it would be particularly problematic to involve emigrants in elections?
Mr. Donlon
It would be very difficult. Most of the overseas offices of the Department of Foreign Affairs have great difficulty in maintaining a register of citizens. One tries to keep a register of one's citizens in potentially troubled areas such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran, but it is difficult to do so. Irish people move in and out of countries with great speed. They do not necessarily register, other than in the run-up to St. Patrick's Day when they might want an invitation to a party. There was no formal system of registration in my time and I do not think such a system exists now. One would have particularly enormous problems in the United States.
It could be done the other way around. If people were required to register, it would not be difficult to indicate to the broad Irish community in a country that it is possible to register to vote in a constituency.
Mr. Donlon
Who would be registered?
If they were to be registered back to the Embassy——
Mr. Donlon
Would Irish citizens be registered, or only those who were born in Ireland?
That is another question.
We have to consider four or five options before we make a decision. The point I am making is that the register of voters would not be based on an existing register, but would be created after a decision has been taken.
Mr. Donlon
I understand.
If the evidence given to the sub-committee by Mr. Donlon about graduates - that they have great pride in voting - is true, it is equally true in respect of emigrants.
They would vote.
That is very illuminating.
Mr. Donlon
It would be even more illuminating if one found that those who want to register first are from the second generation.
Yes.
Mr. Donlon
Those in the United States and Canada, where Professor Downer has worked, who most want to identify themselves with Ireland are those from the second generation. One can be an Irish citizen by descent as long as one of one's four grandparents was born on the island of Ireland.
We know that from following the Irish soccer team.
Indeed. I would like to thank the delegation from the University of Limerick for the care it took and for coming. We had a lively exchange. The sub-committee will certainly bear in mind the points made by the delegation as it makes its final considerations.
The witnesses withdrew.