Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 Jun 1923

Vol. 3 No. 21

PRIVILEGES OF DEPUTIES. - FINANCE BILL, 1923.—FOURTH STAGE.

The PRESIDENT

In moving the final reading of the Finance Bill I should like to inform the Dáil as to the position in regard to dividends with regard to the British Government securities, which carried the condition of exemption from income tax, the taxation of which to Free State income tax is provided for under Clause 4 of the Bill. These securities are the tax compounded securities on which the British Government compounded for payment of income tax in the future, and in consideration for this composition they contracted to pay a lower rate of interest. It was hoped that some financial arrangement could be arrived at with the British Government which would warrant the Free State Exchequer in continuing this exemption. But the Government has now been informed that the British Government does not propose to enter into any such arrangement. In these circumstances we have no alternative but to tax these dividends in the ordinary way to Free State income tax, and the charging provision of Clause 4 of the Finance Bill will accordingly operate in regard to any such dividends receivable by residents in the Free State. In the case of dividends on tax compounded issues that have been paid to Free State residents since the 6th April last it is proposed, in all the circumstances, to waive the claim for payment of the Free State tax, but all dividends received from to-day onwards will be charged to Free State income tax. A notice to this effect will be issued immediately, so that no person who has had possession of those securities will have any cause for complaint in the matter, and any bargain that they make, or may be presumed to have made, in connection with the possession of these particular securities. If they kept them in good faith they have got no complaint against the Free State. They get warning as from to-day to dispose of this particular form of security. The State loses a little bit of revenue by reason of this advantage. It is clear that without getting due notice it would not be fair to tax those particular securities. A public notice to this effect will be issued immediately by the Revenue Commissioners. Holders of tax-compounded securities who are resident in the Free State are now informed of their position, so that they may be able to take such steps as they may desire to take to transfer their investments to other securities.

I should add, for the information of the Dáil, that the dividends on the tax-compounded issues, when charged to Free State income tax, will not be within the arrangements for relief from double taxation inasmuch as no income tax relief will be allowed by the British Government in respect of these dividends. Subject to any personal allowances to which the taxpayer may be entitled, the full Free State tax will be payable on the dividends.

One other matter in the Bill to which I wish to direct attention is the provision in Clause 21, Sub-clause 2, to which, it will be remembered, reference was made in Committee. The effect of this provision is that certain British Government securities which were issued, subject to the condition that they could be tendered at par value in payment of death duties, cannot be tendered in payment of death duties in the Free State in respect of deaths occurring after the 1st of April last, the date on which the clean-cut as regards taxation took place. On reconsideration, we feel that the 1st April, 1924, would be a more equitable date. These securities have to be held for one year by the deceased person to be eligible for payment of death duties, and where any person has invested in these securities for the purpose of his estate securing the benefit of the condition attaching to them, certain rights exist which it would not be equitable to remove by statute. The extension of the date to 1st April, 1924, effectively preserves these rights. As to the burden of the deficit between the market value of the security and the par value of such securities as we may receive, all I desire to say at the moment is that the matter is the subject of representations to the British Government, and I do not admit that this deficit properly falls to be borne by the Free State Exchequer.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I regret to have to introduce a subject which should have been introduced at an earlier stage. The reason why an amendment was not put down in regard to this matter was my ignorance of the condition of affairs. There is a document issued by the Revenue Commissioners relating to Customs and Excise tariffs. This document, I am sorry to say, was not sent to the members of the Dáil for consideration; some of the members may have received it, but at all events it did not reach me. It was only about a week ago that I learned that there was a tariff or duty placed on chloroform of 4s. 4d. per 1b, and on sulphuric ether of £1 16s. 6d. This tariff was not a protective tariff; it was really a prohibitive tariff put on by the British Government to prevent German anaesthetics being brought into England. In England these anaesthetics were being manufactured, and no duty was placed upon them whatsoever. Not only were these anaesthetics manufactured in England, but there was tremendous competition amongst the manufacturers, so that the price was kept down to a fairly low level.

The way the matter will work out now will be that the hospitals, which were previously able to purchase a bottle of anaesthetic ether from 4s. to 5s., will be required now to pay 4s. 6d. duty on that bottle. That is to say, anaesthetics required by charitable hospitals will cost at least double what they cost before. The duty on sulphuric ether is £1 16s. 6d. per gallon, and, as I have pointed out, that will work out at 4s. 6d. per bottle. This will be a serious tax indeed on charitable institutions. I am not going to make any appeal for reduction of this duty in the case of private hospitals or in the case of individuals, but I am sure this Government does not wish to make money on charitable institutions. When I say that this tax will amount to a very serious sum indeed in the year to these institutions, I am quite sure that the Government will listen to my appeal with open ears.

As far as I can see, the working out of this tax would mean that the hospitals would try to economise. In trying to economise they will either use an inferior class of ether or anaesthetic, or they will use too little. Perhaps they will endeavour to save anaesthetics during operations, and in either case the result may be very serious. It is quite possible to purchase an inferior class of either which will produce anaesthesia in the long run, but I do not think that any of us would care to be put asleep by that class of anaesthetic. It is the kind of anaesthetic which was used largely in Derry and Tyrone by gentlemen who wanted to get drunk at a cheap rate. They could have three "drunks" per day at a cost of sixpence. I hope the Government is not going to compel the charitable hospitals to send their patients to sleep at this cheap rate. I do not think that one could regard this article as a luxury. On a previous occasion, when I spoke of the tax on motor cars, the Minister for Finance pointed out that there were a number of people driving about in fine motor cars who did very little towards contributing to the upkeep of the State. This question of anaesthetics cannot be regarded from the individual point of view. It is not a case of any individual endeavouring to shirk his duty or declining to contribute to the finances of the State. It is a case of putting an increased tax on charitable hospitals—institutions which are already overtaxed.

I might add to the reasons I have given against this tax a further reason. If the hospitals' finances are reduced to the extent of a couple of hundred pounds per year by this tax, they must reduce the number of poor they are going to relieve. I have already said that this can scarcely be regarded as a luxury. There is no doubt that the patient going under an operation for the moment may regard it as a luxury that he is not being cut up without an anaesthetic, but in the end it must be admitted it is a luxury one would rather do without. If Ministers should ever find themselves in that position—I hope they never will—I am sure they would like to think that the best anaesthetic that could be given to them was being administered.

Now, I fear that that will not be the case if an amendment is not made. I understand the difficult position that we are in in moving an amendment. Clause 15, I think, is the clause to which an amendment might be put. I can see the difficulty of urging it at present. I have a great objection to the entire tax, and I am quite sure that when Deputy Wilson becomes Minister for Finance, as he hopes to become in the next Government, he will wipe this tax off altogether, so that the individual—that is to say, the rich person—will be able to get as good an anaesthetic as the poor people in the hospitals. The case that is being put by the gentlemen who rule us from Dublin Castle is that this is a splendid tax, because it is going to start industries in Ireland— industries, if you please, to supply anaesthetics to fourteen or fifteen hospitals. Well, I admit that there is an opportunity for a man to get rich quickly. As I said before, this tariff is a prohibitive tariff. It is not a protective tariff. The result of this economy would be, if firms of this sort were started, that a man could produce ether, perhaps, and chloroform of a very bad type indeed. He could produce it and sell it, say, at a shilling less than the cost of ether plus this prohibitive tariff, and in that way make himself rich quickly. I say to these gentlemen in the Castle that I have no objection to an industry of this sort being started, and if an industry is being started in which an anaesthetic is produced as good as it can be produced elsewhere, I have no complaint to make. But I do say that until we have an industry in this country able to supply an anaesthetic that can be used safely, let us give relief to the charitable hospitals in this specific direction. I am prepared to move an amendment, but I should be better pleased that the Minister for Finance would announce that he is willing to introduce an amendment either in the Finance Act or to amend this document that comes from the Castle. It would be possible, I find, to amend the list of Excise allowances by the addition of chloroform and sulphuric ether for use solely for medicinal and surgical purposes in public hospitals. There is an instance of a similar allowance—molasses. If used solely for food for stock no tariff is put upon it. I would suggest that it could be quite easily managed that the hospitals should supply a certificate at the end of the year stating the amount of anaesthetics imported by them and the amount of duty they paid, and that the Government should remit the tax. I hope that the Minister for Finance will deal with this in a sympathetic manner, because it is not a question of individuals. It is merely a question of giving relief to charities, and it is not good economics to tax a charity. I am perfectly certain about that, and I am sure the Minister will deal with it in a kindly manner.

Doctor WHITE

Like the preceding speaker, I got no notice about this prospective tax on sulphuric ether and chloroform. I think that, in addition to chloroform and ether, this tax on medicines in general should be totally abolished.

Mr. GOREY

Whiskey.

Dr. WHITE

Whiskey has its place in medicine. I know for a fact, and I am sure that it is not necessary to point out, that pure alcohol is used for medicinal purposes, and at present I think that, in addition to being rather hard on the sick people, this is a direct menace to a certain extent to the general community. As Deputy Craig has pointed out, this tax is not protective. Unhappily we have not in Ireland a sulphuric ether or a chloroform factory, or a factory where the various spirits can be manufactured, and I submit to the Minister accountable for this Bill that there should be discrimination when taxes are imposed on commodities coming into Ireland. I, for one, favour protection, but I do not understand why goods should be taxed unduly coming into Ireland when we have not already manufacturers of these articles in the country. Goodness knows, the public and charitable hospitals in Ireland have a hard enough time trying to carry on, and I would exhort and beseech the Minister to reconsider his decision before he imposes this tax, because this will be more than a calamity; it will be a barbarity.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I omitted to mention another thing. It is another grumble—namely, that it is almost impossible at present to get these anaesthetics. Some of them are lying in the Customs at the North Wall since the 1st of March, and now it is the 1st June. They tell me that one hospital is begging from another to get a few bottles of anaesthetics to keep them going. I am told that one large firm has deposited £5,000 with the Customs here in order that there will be no delay in the delivery of their goods, but the goods are lying at the North Wall, just as if no duty had been paid. I believe the duty has been paid on all these goods lying there since March, and the delay I believe to be due to the want of a sufficient staff.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No amendment has been proposed.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I should like to hear the Minister for Finance on this particular matter.

The PRESIDENT

If you were to consult my personal opinion I would be inclined to let all anaesthetics in duty free. I think that the request here is a fair one. I notice that the medical profession, when confined to its own particular activities, is a very capable one, but when it takes up other matters it is not so satisfied with the way things are done. I have not had time to examine these particular amendments, but I will accept them in the spirit in which they are made. They state that "the duty of 4s. 4d. per lb. on chloroform and £1 16s. 6d. per gallon on sulphuric ether were imposed by Section 81 (2) and Sch. 111, Part 2, of the Finance (1909-10) Act, 1910 (10 Ed. VII. and 1 Geo. V. Ch. 8)." That has nothing to do with this, so I take it it is not an amendment. It is further stated that "any public hospital using chloroform or sulphuric ether for medical or surgical purposes shall be entitled to an allowance or repayment of the whole amount of any duty paid under this Act in respect of the said articles so used." It appears to me that that is a very wide amendment, and it perhaps deals with more than Deputy Sir James Craig or Deputy Dr. White asked for. Then there is another paragraph. "Chloroform and sulphuric ether may be delivered without payment of duty in such cases as the Commissioners may approve, and subject to such conditions as to proof, security and otherwise as the Commissioners may impose for the purpose of protecting the revenue." I think, on looking over the matter, that it would be better to leave over the consideration of the Bill, and I would see if it is possible to meet Sir James Craig's request. Thus due notice will be given. It is rather late to be introduced now. I do not think that the amendments are in order—they are, perhaps, suggestions rather than amendments— and if we were to take action on them we might find that they were irregular. I would suggest that the Bill be reconsidered on Report Stage on Wednesday.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The second paragraph read by the President is in order. The suggestion of the President is that further consideration of the Report Stage be postponed.

Mr. DARRLEL FIGGIS

I was going to ask what the Parliamentary effect is of an amendment accepted in spirit.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No Parliamentary effect.

Mr. MILROY

Might I ask that this be circulated, because I was going to point out that there are other matters of equal importance that might be considered.

Mr. JOHNSON

That raises the question of the necessity for complying with the request that such papers as this should be circulated. Inasmuch as the Minister has suggested the deferring of the consideration of the Bill on the Report Stage with a view to making amendments, I think that the opportunity should be availed of to suggest other amendments, or at least to make some observations upon the Bill which might lead to the Minister himself suggesting further amendments. On the last stage we discussed on Section 12, Sub-section 2, of the Act of 1915 certain matters relating to the effect of the new duties, such as the effect on Irish industry of the duties upon opera glasses, motor cars, films, optical instruments of one kind and another, and generally the new duties that were applied under that Act. The Minister mistakenly said that the discussion was not applicable to that Section, and suggested that on the next Section the points raised would be dealt with. Then, when we came to discuss the next Section, there were questions raised as to the effect of the continuance of the Depreciated Currency Duty, which lays an especially heavy duty upon certain classes of goods if manufactured in Germany. We hoped that the Minister, in the course of that discussion, would have dealt with the points that were raised, and would have given the Dáil some information as to the effect of those duties upon Irish industries upon the one hand, and upon Irish consumers, plus the Revenue, on the other hand. We did not get any information, and my object in raising this now is to press the Minister to give the Dáil and the country some information on the effect of those duties upon Irish industry, Irish revenue, and the consumers' interests. We pointed out, in respect of new duties under Section 12 of the 1915 No. 2 Act that the motor car industry established by Ford in Cork was likely to be very severely hit, inasmuch as there would be a duty on parts exported to England and a duty upon the same parts when assembled and brought into Ireland as completed cars. What we desired to know was whether the Ministry inquired into the effect on that industry of the present fiscal arrangements, and, if so, what the result of that inquiry was, and whether any modifications could be made in this Bill, and these taxes, with a view to meeting what is an abnormal situation, and one not contemplated or deliberately designed by the authors of this present Tariff Scheme. I think the Dáil is entitled to some information upon that point. In respect of the second point, the effect of the ad valorem duty, 33? per cent. upon certain goods in common use, if manufactured in Germany, it is not pretended that these are protective of any Irish industry. So far as one can gather, the effect of this duty is to ensure that the goods imported from abroad and purchased and consumed by the Irish public may come into this country without any duty whatever, provided they are not manufactured in Germany. Therefore the effect is simply to keep German goods out without adding to the revenue in any degree whatever, and it does not protect any Irish industry. I submit it is quite indefensible for this country to carry on that depreciated currency duty. In this Bill we have inserted Clause 22, repealing the German Reparations Recovery Act, 1921. I think I am right in saying that this duty is quite a different one, and is intended to meet a special situation created by the depreciation of currency. The goods referred to in the Schedule are fabric gloves—that is to say, gloves made of woven or knitted material, termed in the trade fabric gloves. Domestic glassware, illuminating glassware for use with artificial light, domestic hollow-ware, aluminium, steel or wrought iron, enamel, and mantles for incandescent lighting, none of those articles is made in Ireland. You are not protecting any Irish industry. Even if you were, you were only protecting it against German competition, and allowing France, Czecho-Slovakia, Belgium, or America to import their goods against any potential Irish manufacturer quite free. I submit in such there is no protection, and in such there is no revenue. We are very foolish to rob the Irish consuming public of the difference between the German cost and, let us say, the English, French, and Belgian cost. If there is an advantage to be got out of the depreciated currency in Germany without any cost whatever to the Irish consumer, why not let us take that advantage? It is of considerable importance to the working-class housewife, when she goes to buy pots and pans, if she can get them at one-third less from Germany than she can get them from England. She does not desire to give special facilities to the English manufacturer. You might persuade her with difficulty, perhaps, but it is impossible to persuade her within limits to give a preference to the Irish manufacturer, if there were such; but I know of no enamel hollow-ware manufacturer in the Saorstát, and I submit that this provision is quite unwarranted. It has no value from the revenue point of view. It has no value from the protectionist point of view, and it is simply mulcting the Irish consumer for the benefit of the English manufacturer. We shall probably not require many incandescent mantles for the next two or three months; probably there are good stocks in the country; but in the course of three or four months there will be a normal demand for incandescent mantles. Public authorities buy them in very large quantities, and individual housekeepers also. But we are now asked to pass a Finance Bill which says that for your sins you shall pay 33? per cent. more than you need pay for incandescent mantles, all for the benefit of the British manufacturer. The Minister, on the last debate on this question, said that we ought to maintain the tax upon certain commodities even though it did not produce much revenue, if there was any possibility of such a tax encouraging an Irish manufacturer to begin business in that industry. There have been a good many suggestion about new industries; a good many suggestions have had cold water thrown upon them; but there is not the slightest chance within the next twelve months of industries being established in Ireland for the manufacture of aluminium hollow-ware, enamel steel hollow-ware, or mantles for incandescent lighting When the Minister is considering the suggestions thrown out by Deputy Sir James Craig, I would earnestly impress upon him the necessity of adding another Section which would mean the repeal of any regulations which allow him to impose a depreciated currency duty on goods manufactured in Germany, specifying Germany as the one enemy to be feared. I submit there is no justification whatever for the continuation of that regulation in this tariff.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

There is one further reason why I urge that this Bill might be considered not merely again upon Report, but that certain sections of it might, in the light of what the President has himself said to-day, be actually re-committed. I am not sure whether the matter is not one that is suitable to be dealt with as a point of order. It is very cognate at least to a point of order, because the President's speech—I think he will admit the equity of what I am about to say—did practically nullify a certain undertaking he gave when the Bill was in Committee. On Section 4 a request was put forward, if my recollection serves me, by Deputy Thrift with regard to that part of the Section that dealt with stock issued in England free of income tax. I am unable to charge my memory with recollection of the exact terms of the undertaking given by the President on that occasion, but he did suggest that a certain method might be adopted by agreement between this Government and the British Government by which such stock might be dealt with on a system that would be less than the total income tax in this country.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is the Deputy making a point of order?

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I am not making a point of order. I am merely suggesting that this should be re-committed, and I did intend raising it earlier as a point of order. In any event, it is clear from the speech now that after certain negotiations have passed between the Executive Council and the British Government that these expectations are not to be realised. In that case I think that a Section under which these expectations were given in speeches made by the Minister for Finance on the Committee Stage should be reviewed again in Committee. I did not expect the speech that the President made would be made by him, and I am therefore unprovided with the exact terms of the speeches made by Deputy Thrift on that occasion and by the President, and I am speaking now from memory of the circumstances. His speech to-day does involve a certain cancellation, to what extent I am not prepared to say, of expectations that were reasonably formed on the basis of what he said then. I think when that occurs that such a Section should be reviewed on the stage on which these expectations were given, that is to say, the Committee Stage. I also wish to refer to another matter that has been touched upon by Deputy Sir James Craig and Deputy Johnson.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The motion is that the Bill be received for final consideration. Is Deputy Figgis making a speech on that motion?

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I understood the Minister for Finance stated that the Bill was going to be received for final consideration at a future date, and that any argument that might tend to substantiate that, such as the argument used by Deputy Johnson throughout the length of his speech, would still continue to be in order.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy Johnson was quite in order, and Deputy Figgis is quite in order, but they are speaking to a motion that the Bill be received for final consideration. No other motion is before us.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Therefore, before any Bill of this kind be received for final consideration—I think before the Bill is given effect to by administrative officers—White Papers should be made available for the Dáil. It would be unfair to expect any Deputy to understand the complete bearing upon the Bill of what is revealed in that White Paper. I have not a copy of it here, but I have had an opportunity of examining it, and I am bound to say, and I share the surprise of the other Deputies who have spoken on discovering the very curious range of the various taxes that have been adopted in the Finance Bill, that I think in matters of this kind, especially in the early stages of this Dáil, not only should this Bill be withdrawn now and be reconsidered on Report, but before it be so reconsidered every Deputy should have circulated to him this White Paper sent out by the Commissioners of Revenue.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Let us dispose of the White Paper first. Will the President circulate the White Paper?

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Very good. The White Paper will be circulated.

Mr. DAVIN

In the absence of anything in the nature of Government documents regarding the question of revenue, the only thing we have to rely upon is the official Press, which, I take it, we all agree is not unfriendly to the policy of the present Government.

The PRESIDENT

What is the official Press?

Mr. DAVIN

The only question I wish to submit for the consideration of the Minister is that between now and a date that will be arranged for this Bill to be considered in its Final Stage, he should take an opportunity of having a conversation with the Revenue Commissioners regarding the necessity for the detailed information that is asked for in the Official Export List. As far as I can understand this Official Export List which has been put into operation by the Revenue Commissioners, it is an exact copy of the list in operation between Great Britain and foreign countries. I am quite certain that, although the Commissioners who are now called upon to administer Irish affairs might have been in the past servants of the British Administration, they are quite capable of devising some other official list more simplified, and perhaps more modified, than the one now in operation. If we are to take the Press as an indication of the way things are going in this country for some time past, we cannot overlook a certain statement made in a leading article recently in a prominent Irish paper. The article says that, as compared with last year, our exports were down 4,408 tons, while our imports had increased by no less than 3,459 tons. I contend that if this Official Export List were put into operation and strictly applied in accordance with the instructions of the Revenue Commissioners, it would help to decrease rather than increase, and would hamper and restrict rather than help, the exports of goods from this country. I would like, if it were possible, on the next stage of this Bill that the Minister would supply us with a return of exports for the months of April and May as compared with the same period last year. Any of us who knows anything about the traffic arrangements of the country knows that, so far as the shipping companies are concerned, large quantities of traffic usually arrive at the port a very short time previous to being forwarded from Dublin to other ports without any invoices, or to use the ordinary term, unentered.

This export list demands that certain information of a very extensive nature should be supplied by the trader who forwards the consignments, and power is given to inflict a penalty unless the instructions are complied with. I have seen recently a case where 10,000 specifications were returned from the Revenue Commissioners to a certain shipping company in Dublin, simply because the information asked for in the specifications was not given. The point I want to make is that the fault in that particular instance was not due to the shipping company, but to traders in interior parts of the country who failed to comply with the Revenue Commissioners' instructions. In a case of that kind, where the necessary information is not supplied, the shipping company would be bound, according to the instructions they have received from the Revenue Commissioners, not to ship the goods, and they could not ship them until such time as all the information asked for under the instructions given by the Revenue Commissioners was supplied. I contend that if this practice is going to be insisted upon by the Revenue Commissioners, you will find that the North Wall and other ports will be held up with traffic which would flow through in the ordinary normal way but for the red tape system borrowed from the English Administration. I would ask the Minister to see if there is any chance of having this list, which he has circulated, modified in any way, but without endangering the interests of the Free State. I am dealing now with cases where information is asked for on non-dutiable goods. It appears to me, from reading the list, that the information asked for by the Government is more or less for the purpose of satisfying the statistical experts in the different Government Departments rather than as a measure to protect revenue interests in the Free State. It is customary, especially in the case of the export of eggs, that from twenty to thirty waggons would arrive at the Dublin port each night unentered without any specification forms or any invoices. Let us examine the position in such a case as that. If the eggs were held up, great inconvenience and loss would be suffered by the people who had forwarded the traffic. I contend that a certain amount of propaganda is necessary in order to educate the trading public as to the necessity for complying with these regulations. On the other hand, I think some consideration should be given to the question of simplifying the details that are asked for in these particular cases. I contend also that if the information asked for, especially in the case of non-dutiable goods, is for the purpose of satisfying the requirements of statistical experts in Government Departments, that the responsibility should not be thrown upon the railway or shipping companies to get that information. It is the traders who are responsible and liable to penalties if they do not supply that information. My whole case is not one for the relief of the different sections of the clerical staff, who are practically driven mad in the effort to comply with these regulations, but rather for the purpose of having something done to simplify the procedure that is necessary, and in order to allow the normal flow of traffic to go on, and not to injure the trade of the country. I think something in that direction should be done. Perhaps in the meantime the Minister will get into communication with the responsible authorities, who are, I believe, the Revenue Commissioners, and see if anything can be done to give effect to the suggestions I have made.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

The document which I submitted to the Minister, and which I did not put down on the paper as an amendment at all, appears to have brought down a terrible deluge upon the head of the Minister for Finance. It never occurred to me that the document which I drafted, and which he read, would make it possible for anybody to suggest that the whole schedule of taxable articles should be taken back and reconsidered, and gone into all over again. If you are going to have Customs you must have Customs Duty. As we are going to have Customs, I for one would not think of suggesting that the Ministry could have done much better in the time at their disposal than to take over en bloc the duties they found originally imposed. But it appears to me that in one or two grave cases an unintentional injustice has been done by them. They told us that they were going to devise before next year a whole scale of Customs. I have no doubt that when they do carry out that revision the schedule of dutiable articles will be enormously changed and the amount of duty payable will be enormously changed. It struck me as curious that when, only yesterday, we voted nearly £17,000 to public charitable hospitals that to-day we should be called upon to pass a Customs Duty that doubles the price of the anaesthetic used in these hospitals for the relief of the poor. The result of that must be either that they can only relieve a fewer number or that the poor will suffer by not being supplied with anaesthetics. It seems to me that a remission, not an alteration in the Customs Duties at all, because I never intended to suggest that, should be made in such cases.

I do not suggest now that any person who buys either sulphuric ether or chloroform for commercial purposes or private use should do anything except pay the full amount of the duty imposed by this schedule. It occurred to me it might be possible, when at this stage of the Bill, to put in a proviso in the form I suggested in the document which the Minister has read, the proviso to be to the effect that if public charitable hospitals satisfy the Commissioners of Inland Revenue that the anaesthetic was supplied and used by them for the relief of the poor, and in no other way, that they might get a refund of the duty they had paid upon it. I took that suggestion, it was not my own invention, from the Finance Bill that imposed the duty itself. It is true that the Act granted no relief in the past on anaesthetics, because the anaesthetics were made in England, but it did grant relief to doctors in regard to the purchase of motor spirits on their proving that the motor spirit was used by them for professional purposes. It seems to me that when a doctor could get, as he did get under that Act, a refund of either the whole or half of the duty which he had paid for motor spirits on furnishing a certificate to the effect that he had used the spirits for professional purposes, it ought not, I think, to be impossible for the Ministry of Finance and their advisers to devise some means by which public charitable hospitals might get a refund of the duty they pay on anaesthetics used for the relief of the poor in their hospitals. But it never occurred to me as reasonable or possible that the whole schedule of Customs Duties imposed under this Act should be laid open to revision by an amendment of that kind. The amendment seemed to me one that, with the good will of the Ministry, it might be possible to bring in at this stage. I do not move it, because I recognise that without the good will of the Ministry it was quite worthless to suggest any change, and I do not suggest now that the Bill should be postponed until the Ministry have gone into it and reconsidered every item and every article in the schedule of Excise Duties.

CATHAL O SEANAIN

Ba mhaith liom a chur ós cóir na hAireachta i dtaobh dráma agus cuirm ceoil fé chúram Chonnradh na Gaedhilge a bheidh ar siúl in Ath Cliath i gceann cúpla mí. Tá na Coimisinéirí á iarraidh ar an gConnradh an cháin d'íoc ar na drámaí agus na gcuirm cheoil.

Anois roimhe seo nuair a bhí Seán Buidhe anso níor íocadh an cháin. Deir na Coimisinéirí anois ná fuil baint ag na drámaí le oideachas agus ar an abhar san nach féidir leo ach a iarraidh ar an gConnradh an cháin d'íoc.

Sé mo thuairim go n-admhóidh gach Teachta gur Oideachas is bun agus is barr leis na drámaí seo agus go bhfuil dlúth-bhaint acu leis.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the decision of the Revenue Commissioners to insist upon the collection of the entertainment tax on theatrical performances conducted under the auspices of the Gaelic League. That was not done heretofore under the British regime. The Commissioners say, of course, that they could only give a rebate either if they themselves were satisfied that the entertainment was of a wholly educational character or if the entertainment was partly educational and partly scientific, and they go on to say that the claims for exemption could only be established where the entertainment which is provided is of such a character as to give instruction rather than amusement; or was an entertainment which is provided in furtherance of the object of reviving national pastimes by a Society or Institution formed with that object, and not conducted or established for profit. From the facts before them they say they were unable to regard the entertainments under review as falling within the scope of either of the particular sub-sections of the Act dealing with this matter, and, therefore, they were unable to exempt the entertainment from the provisions of the Act. Some Teachtai here will be probably going to these entertainments, and they certainly will not go to them for amusement, but they will go to help in an educational process, for the whole purpose of the performance is educational. It seems rather peculiar that the Revenue Commission are now attempting to make a decision which would practically mean that the greater part of the public work of the Gaelic League would be classed as non-effective. I hope the Minister for Finance will look into this matter and see if he cannot find another way of dealing with it than that suggested by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue.

I should like to say a few words on some of the points made by Deputy Davin. There is one point that has arisen in connection with one of the railways coming into the Saorstát; that is, the County Donegal Railways Joint Committee. Owing to the financial changes there are certain clearance charges paid. Now, inside the Six Counties these charges are very small indeed. I am informed that they only come to something of from about 2d. to 9d., but in the Saorstát on dutiable goods they run up to 6s. 8d. I think, and on non-dutiable articles to 3s. 4d. The result of all this is that there is a good deal of trouble upon this particular border area in Tirconnaill, and there is a good deal of dissatisfaction not only among the staffs of the railway, but amongst the public, on account of these duties. Of course, it is the Railway Companies themselves impose these charges, but it seems to be on the basis that certain things which certain Deputies drew the attention of the Ministry to before, and that is making a very big distinction between sending things concerning consignments to the railway within the Saorstát and the same things concerning consignments to the railway outside the Saorstát. I need not labour that point any further than it was laboured on the last occasion, but it shows that this thing is growing, and in the long run there will be indeed a very serious position arising between the two Governments. The Railway Company, I am told, by imposing these new clearance charges on all consignments, are using the income that they are getting as additional revenue. The staffs are being forced to do a great deal more work than ordinarily. That, of course, may please some Deputies who think that railwaymen do very little work. But sooner or later a serious situation will arise up there as a result of this. I just notice in one of these documents a matter which apparently the Revenue Commissioners, when dealing with the Gaelic League, have not noticed. I notice that exemption (E) reads: "An entertainment which is provided in furtherance of the object of reviving national pastimes or any Society or Institution founded for their object, and not conducted or established for profit."

It is rather remarkable that, when going over these exemptions, the Commissioners should pick out certain exemptions which they say do not apply to the Gaelic League and to Gaelic entertainments, and leave out this one, which, on the face of it, does quite clearly and distinctly apply. I hope Deputies will back me up in the appeal I am making to the Minister to see the Revenue Commissioners on this matter, and to see that the people who are running these entertainments are not mulcted for doing educational work.

Mr. McGOLDRICK

I strongly support the claim of the Doctor Deputies here for exemption on behalf of anaesthetics. I think it is a fair claim, and I am sure it will be conceded. I also strongly support the claim made on behalf of Gaelic educational entertainments as mentioned by Deputy Cathal O'Shannon. With regard to excessive charges being made on some Tirconnaill railways, I wish to say that on an early date I propose to take that matter up here when the Railway Bill comes on. Meanwhile it can stand in abeyance. I would wish the Minister for Finance, if he can, and I think it is desirable that he should do so, to give us some approximate idea of the effect of the falling through of the reciprocal easements that were put before us in this Finance Bill in relation to the dividend tax; what volume or what the extent of it was approximately, and whether it is to the advantage or the disadvantage of the Free State. With regard to the Revenue authorities, as Deputy Cathal O'Shannon said, it is true that they are not suspected of very much enthusiasm in support of the Gaelic language or programme. I think it should be one of their special qualifications for the right to hold the office which they hold at present that they should be in sympathy with the Gaelic League. I think the language movement is the one thing that should be most favourably considered by the authorities in charge of the State purse of this country.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

There is one point that has been raised about the entertainment tax which, I think, is not strictly relevant to the consideration of the matters before the Dáil. We are dealing, I take it, with the making of the law, and not with the interpretation of the law, and, unless we are considering an amendment, I think we should be satisfied with having brought a particular matter to the Minister's attention. I am not sure that it should not be brought to his attention at a different time.

The PRESIDENT

I was going to move the adjournment of the debate on the Finance Bill until Wednesday, but before doing so I wish to answer a few points raised. Deputies delight in raising points on the Finance Bill. The first matter that has to be dealt with is the question of whether Deputy Darrell Figgis' recollection is correct or imperfect or is suffering from any infirmities. I think it is suffering from infirmities, if my recollection of the incidents that he relates is correct. I think this is the case upon which the Deputy expected to bring down the Ministry. We had made certain proposals, and a statement regarding the advisability of getting the order concerning double taxation through. A certain security which did not lend itself to the treatment of the Double Taxation Order, and which necessarily had to be dealt with, was brought on for consideration under Clause 4 of the Finance Act. That particular section or clause deals with what is known as tax-compounded securities. A sum of something like two million pounds is invested in these securities in Ireland, and that particular security did not lend itself by any stretch of the imagination to the treatment under the Double Taxation Order, for the reason that it is paid free of tax, and persons investing in that security either now or in the beginning when first issued were always led to believe that it was free from any deduction in respect of income tax. I explained at that time, if the Deputy's recollection will assist him, that in the case of persons like himself who pay super-tax, that the particular interest in question is assessed as if income tax had been deducted from it.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

The matter was raised by Deputy Professor Thrift, and not by me, and a pledge was given to him.

The PRESIDENT

Any pledge given by us is a pledge we are prepared to carry out. When we were opening negotiations—it was this particular clause that empowered us to open these negotiations: without this clause we could not have any opportunity of putting our case on a sound logical basis, I said that persons who had possession of those securities would not suffer by reason of the fact that provision for securing to the State its legitimate share of income tax had to be made and that they did not get notice. Now, we give them notice from to-day. I think that is fair. There is no advantage taken of the fact that these people have not got, say, the far-seeing judgment of financiers of the type of Deputy Darrell Figgis, who, I am sure, months ago, having foreseen the possibility of these things, would have sold out any securities he had of this particular order.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Yes, quite right.

Mr. WILSON

And invested in Free State securities.

The PRESIDENT

With regard to this particular publication which the Deputy has mentioned—and I would warn the Deputy that he is putting an extreme tax upon his library accommodation—we will give him all these documents, but a continuous supply of them will certainly make him liable for increased rent. This is a document issued by the Revenue Commissioners for the information of traders and other interests. It is a reprint of a similar list that has been in public use for many years, and is supplied on request by the Revenue Commissioners. However, I will have a number of copies put down here for the use of the Deputies. I think I told you on one occasion that I was not a poet, and that I did not know much about poetry, but two lines of poetry occur to me in this. They are—

"I would," said Fox, "a tax devise which would not fall on me,"

"Then tax receipts," Lord North replies, "for those you never see."

According to what I have learned of the discussion here, everybody objects to taxation of any sort or kind which happens to fall upon him. I do not know where the money is to come from unless we are allowed to tax, and we will have to tax rather generously. The point made by Deputy O'Shannon that we were interfering with certain educational institutions by reason of an entertainment tax that we were putting on them prompted me to look through the Estimates for the current year. I find pages upon pages dealing with large sums of money for education. There is a great danger that the people of this country are going to be educated out of their very existence, and some little enjoyment ought to be allowed to them, and they should be permitted to go to those entertainments and pay for enjoyment rather than education. From the Dundrum Lunatic Asylum to the very end of the Estimates book you will find money for education. Now, we are asked to insist on people going to theatres in order to get them educated. The import duties imposed by Section 12 of the Finance Act of 1902 deal with motor cars and parts, and include duties on musical instruments, clocks, etc., and duties on cinematograph films. The duties do not include optical instruments and glasses mentioned by Deputy Johnson. Those were imposed by the Safeguarding of Industries Acts, and not by any Finance Act. The Deputy mentioned the tax of 22 2-9ths per cent. on motor cars manufactured in this country and going into Great Britain. As the Deputy knows, there is a certain advantage in having 1-3rd allowed off that particular tax. I have already explained that until the whole fiscal question could be considered it is unwise to revise any of those taxes or duties. If there be a chance of starting industries in this country that chance is improved by the fact that a tax is imposed upon certain articles, even though they are not yet manufactured here.

Mr. JOHNSON

If the tax is only on articles manufactured in Germany, how does it apply?

The PRESIDENT

That is a matter that ought to be considered by the Fiscal Committee. The Government has not had an opportunity of examining the question, and before reconsideration or amendment or repeal of this Act should take place there ought at least to be an examination of it. If it be found, in order to give industry in this country an opportunity of progressing, that even an extra tax over and above that at present imposed is a necessity, and that the imposition of such a tax would make it an economic proposition, the imposition of a high tax would be justified. If the employment and business and general advantage of the country were to be affected by such a tax the Deputy will realise that it is easier to get from the present tax to a higher tax than from no tax at all to a pretty considerable one. I would not recommend any alteration of tax for arbitrary reasons until some Committee has reported upon it. Such a Committee is practically in course of formation. I anticipate that within the next week or fortnight this particular Committee will take up consideration of fiscal matters. It would be unwise, with the small amount of information at our disposal, and the small amount of time available for the consideration of such important subjects, that we should alter the Finance Bill, even though it serves a temporarily useful purpose. The mere fact that a person buys a pot or pan for 6d. less is scarcely a sufficient justification to alter, without examination, whatever fiscal system there is in operation at present.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister has altered the income tax system, at any rate.

The PRESIDENT

I do not think we have. We have not altered the system. The tax is the same as it was last year. If the Deputy means that we have a different tax to what prevails in England, I admit it. We have also a different beer tax.

Mr. JOHNSON

I mean the Minister has introduced legislation making differences between certain payers of income tax, relief from double income tax, etc., and that is at least as great a change as the change I am suggesting of eliminating this tax against Germany.

The PRESIDENT

The Deputy is entirely mistaken with regard to any alteration there is in the matter of income tax. The basis is exactly the same. The only difference between persons paying income tax last year and this year is where there has been a reduction in the British tax we get the benefit of it. The Saorstát gets the benefit. The individual gets benefit to this extent: If his income were £10,000, and he pays £X tax, he pays £X tax on it, but he does not pay that tax twice. He does not pay 5s. to us and 4s. 6d. to the British, which he would have to pay if it were not for the Double Taxation Relief Act. I put forward those points for the purpose of moving the adjournment of the debate on this Bill until Wednesday. I hope then we will be able to produce an amendment which will meet to some extent the points that have been raised by Deputy Craig and Deputy White. Perhaps we may not entirely satisfy them, but we will go as far as we can.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

I would like if the President would be able to tell us by Wednesday why the Revenue Commissioners did not quote the examption clause that I quoted a while ago.

Mr. MILROY

I second the motion made to adjourn the debate. The reason I rise is because of the statement made by the President in the course of his last remarks. He referred to the impending appointment of a Committee to inquire into the fiscal system.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The motion is that the debate be adjourned.

Mr. MILROY

I would ask permission to put a question which is important.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I will allow the question to be put.

Mr. MILROY

The question is: will the Dáil be put in possession of the personnel of the Commission before it actually begins its work? Will that Commission be mainly composed of a few professional theorists, free trade professors, or will there be some practical business men who are really affected every day by the operation of this system? Will any of these people be appointed on such a Commission?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is a very good question.

The PRESIDENT

It is a very long one. Firstly, it is not a Fiscal Commission, and secondly, it is not intended to appoint a business man on the Commission in the sense of a trader or industrialist or a person engaged in any particular business which might be beneficially affected by the report of this Commission.

Mr. MILROY

What is the purpose— to shelve the question?

The PRESIDENT

Is it allowable to put a second question?

Question: "That Debate be adjourned until Wednesday," put and agreed to.