I beg to move: "That a sum not exceeding £79,788 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March 1924, for expenditure in respect of Reformatory and Industrial Schools, including places of detention." Already a sum of £28,500 had been voted on account.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.
When these Estimates were under consideration last year some suggestions were made with regard to the provision of pensions for the teachers engaged in these Industrial Schools. I would like to know if anything has been done in that direction during the past year. Would the Minister be in a position to give us any forecast as to whether or not it is proposed to bring those schools under the Ministry of Education in the proposed Ministries Bill?
I think they will be brought under the Ministry of Education, and the Reformatories will continue under the Ministry of Home Affairs. In regard to pensions, of course it is not a year since the question was raised. Nothing has been done. As a matter of fact, it would require a departure from the present system of financing before anything much could be done, as the schools are assisted by the State on a capitation basis. No account is taken of the way in which the schools themselves expend the money.
I have been asked to draw the Minister's attention to the question of the Phillipstown Reformatory. There seems to be an impression in the minds of people in the district that, in view of the number catered for in the institution, it is not necessary that such a large expenditure should be involved. I would like to know whether or not at a later date it would be possible to consider the advisability of closing this as a Reformatory and reopening it as a growing industrial concern connected with the Government.
There are two reformatory schools run by the one Order— Glencree and Phillipstown. They are both in serious financial difficulties owing to the fact that they are paid on a capitation basis and that the number of pupils has decreased very seriously. Of course, the overhead charges have not fallen in proportion. Taking the two institutions together, the numbers fell from 481 in 1916 to 90 in the present year. The schools applied for an increased capitation grant, but the Ministry of Finance was not able to accede to that application. Take, for instance, the question of committals. In 1914 the number of committals was 124. Even as recently as 1916 the number was 136. Last year it fell to 18. We are advised that one of the institutions should be closed, but the management of the schools urged that they were good and useful institutions. That is a matter that will have to be thought out. There is not any need for them at the moment, nor is there even a possibility, if the present state of affairs continues very long, to keep both going. So far they have declined to take our advice that one of the schools should be closed.
Could the Minister assist us with further information relative to sub-head E? Can he tell us what is included in the 7s. and the 2s. 6d. temporary additional capitation grant in augmentation of a corresponding grant from local authorities? I would like if the Minister would analyse the current normal charges, irrespective of the number of people maintained in the establishment, and the charges that might be grouped under the heading of rations or food supplies. Would it be possible for the Minister to give us under this head as full information as we had in connection with the Dundrum Asylum? In connection with Dundrum Asylum we had particulars regarding the victualling for patients and rations for the attendants, clothing for patients and uniform clothing. Can the Minister assist us in finding out what is covered by the 7s. allowance and the 2s. 6d. in augmentation of a corresponding grant from local authorities?
We have no direct control over this institution. Dundrum Asylum is different; it is a State institution. Every item of expenditure is sanctioned by Government authority; scales of pay and clothing allowances are sanctioned by the Treasury. These schools are independent bodies, which carry on their work in their own way, subject to inspection and general regulations, but they are not subject to financial control. They simply received the grants fixed a considerable number of years ago, which they now allege to be insufficient.
I was hopeful there would be a case made by the authorities concerned for the temporary additional capitation grant, and that in the course of making that case they would tell us what the cost of maintenance would be.
In the case of the Reformatories there was not a detailed case set out to that extent, because they relied on the rather obvious case that instead of 200 boys they had only 18, and the capitation grant was, of course, insufficient. If the Minister for Finance had been minded to increase the capitation grant we should probably have the whole thing considered in detail; but as they did not feel like increasing it only the general case came up for consideration.
Question put and agreed to.