I beg to move: "That a sum not exceeding £40,552 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1924, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of External Affairs." A sum of £20,000 had already been voted on account.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
When one looks at the figures presented to us in this Estimate, when one looks at them with all the charity one can muster, one asks oneself whether all this Department is in truth and in fact very much more than a most unsatisfactory Publicity Department for the present Government. The first question one is entitled to ask, and to which one is entitled to an answer, is: What value are we going to get for this £60,000 if we vote it? And in seeking to obtain an answer to that question it is not unreasonable to ask oneself what kind of value the country is getting for the money it has spent on this Department in recent months? One asks oneself whether in truth and in fact this particular Estimate is not intended by the Treasury to be a comic relief of the Estimates. I remember a few months ago talking to a gentleman, who is now a very distinguished person in the State, about our future conduct of foreign affairs under the Treaty. He said to me: "Foreign affairs! Why, once the Treaty is through, all the foreign affairs we will want will be trade."
Well, one does not argue with a gentleman like that, and I did not argue with him. But look first at what is proposed in respect to trade, if trade only is the concern of our external affairs. I look down the list, and I confess I am not lost in admiration at the long array of Consular offices that we have established on the Continent and America, as well as Consuls and Vice-Consuls to push our trade and to bring Irish trade into touch with foreign commerce. I do not see the numerous offices we have abroad, where we can go when we are in trouble, for the protection of our Consuls. I do not see the offices to which we can go in connection with passports. I do not see the Consular offices which are going to deal with ships' cargoes, manifests and ships' papers, although it is notorious that if you establish Consulates in places where they are wanted, the fees on passports and ships' papers will more than pay for your Consulates. I do not even see any provision for that register of our Irish Nationals abroad which one would have thought an Irish Government would be anxious to get established at the earliest possible moment. Instead of that, what do we find?
We find that our representatives in Italy have gone out of business altogether. We find that our representative in Spain has been scrapped. We find that, although there may be a shadow of a representative in Berlin, in fact that office might as well not exist; and we find that even in Paris the expected developments have not matured. I do not recollect in the course of the year having come across any considerable or inconsiderable quantity of data in the Press from our Consuls abroad for the information of people in Ireland. The Ministry which looks after our Consuls does not seem to think it necessary to give the country the benefit of the very valuable advice they no doubt receive from our representatives abroad. One might have thought that, in view of the terms of the Treaty, assimilating our position to that of Canada, that one of the first things to do would be to appoint a representative in Ottawa, and if there were difficulties during the past year in so doing, one would have expected to see some such official in the Estimates for the present year. But that representative again is conspicuous by his absence. So that whether our foreign relations be trade only, or be something very much more, comprising trade, it is difficult upon these Estimates and upon the data before us to see where we are getting value for £60,000.
We after all, are not merely a little island in the far distant corner of Europe. We are a world race. And we are entitled to let the world know that we consider ourselves a world race. I look to these Estimates in vain for any sign that we intend to give any such message to the world—for any sign of the fact that we realise that our geographical position gives us a unique opportunity as a link between the old world and the new. If these things are realised, that realisation is not carried into practice under the present Government. I should imagine that for our own protection we require to come out into the open. We require to make friends with foreign people, and to make ourselves known abroad, and to forge links of friendship that will last for our own protection and for our commercial interests.
I fail, in going through these Estimates, to see one single direction in which we have explored any new avenue, or indication that we intend to explore any new avenue in the coming twelve months of peace. That seems to me very remarkable, and I think a very significant fact in dealing with the Ministry of External Affairs. So far as I am aware, we have never done what is done by every nation coming for the first time into its own— attaining for the first time the recognition of the world. We have not sent envoys to foreign Powers notifying them of our emergence from foreign domination. I ask the Minister to let us know how many, and which, foreign Powers now give us official recognition? I ask how many, and which foreign Powers recognise our envoys, consular or diplomatic, as what they are? And how many foreign Powers have since the Treaty sent representatives accredited to us in Dublin? The larger the number he can give in his reply the better I shall be pleased.
We had the other day a little item in the newspapers which seemed very significant. An Irishman proposed to tour the world in his yacht. He could not sail under the Irish flag. Why not? He said it was the fault of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and I should be glad to know what the Minister has to say to it. It seems strange after all those months that an Irish vessel cannot sail the world under her own flag. The truth is that in this Department you have triumphantly exhibited the policy of the Ministry in regard to Great Britain, the policy of "Yes, if you say so." Our foreign affairs have become external affairs. "Don't you think it would sound rather nicer to have external rather than foreign affairs?""Oh, yes if you say so." It is the same policy as we have had in the mangling of our Constitution. It is the same policy we have had again and again, and it is the same policy apparently that it is intended to continue and perpetuate in the coming year. We do not know what the Minister has to say about the non-registration of the Treaty at Geneva. Everybody knows under the Covenant of the League of Nations that a Treaty entered into must be registered by one of the signatories, and if it is not registered in Geneva it is absolutely void. Have any representations been made by our Ministry of Foreign Affairs to Great Britain pointing out that the plain duty of Great Britain is to register the Treaty in Geneva, and, if so, what answer has been received? I invite the Minister to take the Dáil into his confidence upon that interesting question. There are other matters also left out of the columns where you would expect to see them figuring. Other countries, notably Great Britain, make a point of sending to America and Continental countries their distinguished men of letters and their distinguished men in art and science in order to establish contact, in order to get themselves appreciated by foreign peoples, and in order to make friendships. We have plenty of distinguished people who would do us honour if we sent them on these visits abroad. I fail to see in these Estimates any provision for carrying out any such plan. I, for one, take the view on that point that it is so useful that I should not question any amount the Minister would put down for carrying out that purpose. He goes to the other extreme, impressed, no doubt, by what was done in Dáil Eireann in other days, when too much attention was devoted to the entertainment and hospitality of foreigners. He leaves out that item altogether, except in the case of the United States, and the unfortunate people whom you do send abroad to represent us are not given, so far as I can see, one cent with which to discharge the normal, ordinary hospitality which they will have to discharge if they are going to enter into the social and diplomatic life of the country to which they are sent. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I see no sign of such item except in the case of the United States. I should like to see provision for an Irish Commission to be sent to Canada and South Africa. We know that there are questions as to what exactly are Dominion rights in this direction or in that. We know that everything the British Dominions have won in the past years has been won in the teeth of bitter opposition from Downing Street. Would it not be judicious and prudent in these circumstances that we should inform ourselves on the spot as to what is the South African and Canadian view of this or that problem which are now our problems? Would it not be judicious and prudent that in those special directions we should form for ourselves links and friendships that will be used bye-and-bye? We may be doing it, but I see no trace of it on this Vote.
I turn to the establishment at home, and when I compare that Ministerial Department with others I am struck by the fact that wholly inadequate provision is made for carrying on a real Ministry of Foreign Affairs. One would have thought that the Minister would recommend that he should have not only a Commercial Secretary, with a commercial staff, looking after foreign trade and collecting data, but also a Political Secretary, whose business would be to find out what was going on abroad, and to direct our representatives abroad accordingly, and a further constitutional or legal secretary who would watch the development of the very important issues arising between Great Britain and her Dominions, issues which will now affect us. There is no sign of that, nor of any intention of making the Ministry of Foreign Affairs a real, live, Ministry dealing with our Foreign Affairs by some such method as that, by establishing here in Dublin secretaryships or sub-departments to look after the main heads of what ought to be one of our principal Ministries. We do not even see any sign of the very interesting proposal I once heard of, to bring out a book on Ireland. Other countries, under similar circumstances, realising that they are not known abroad, realising that they have been misrepresented abroad, realising that they have a good deal to say which would interest foreign people, and that it is necessary to interest foreign people in their country, bring out a book on their country, and send copies to their agents in order that people who may want to take an interest in that country may have data accessible to them. That would be a very valuable scheme to carry out, but I look in vain for any trace of it in these Estimates. There is only one thing more to which I want to draw attention, and it is an item or two which intensifies the impression that we are not intending to take the foreign affairs portion of this Estimate seriously. I looked at item (B) (4) postage, stationery, telegrams, telephones. On looking down the list I observe that while our stationery, postage, telegrams, and telephones are going to cost us £400 in the United States of America, in Paris we shall be able to get on for the whole twelve months on the modest sum of £5, £5 for stationery at the Paris Office for the whole of twelve months, and that is called a serious representative office of the Irish Free State abroad! I know the gentleman who administers that office. He is a competent man. How then does it come to pass that we are asked to vote £5 for stationery, etc., in the Paris Office in the year 1923-24?
It is a misprint.
Do I gather that the Minister blames the printer? I am very glad to hear it, particularly as I observe there is to be an allowance of £1,000 for an additional staff in this office. The Minister will agree that I had some reason for my surprise in this particular item. There are other points, but I will content myself with asking the Minister whether he seriously asks the Dáil to consent to paying 17s. 6d. a week to what he calls an office girl in the London Press Bureau.
The Deputy who has just spoken has asked what value we we are going to receive for this money, and he goes on to say that during the recent months apparently nothing worth mentioning has been done by the Department of External Affairs. I would like to say that if he said nothing of value was done by the Ministry of External Affairs prior to recent months, I might have agreed with him. He says the list of Consuls is not impressive. The fact is we began a few months ago without any foreign affairs that we could call foreign affairs, but with a certain number of representatives abroad. The only useful functions they could serve abroad up to that were those of Publicity agents. They handicapped themselves with such high-sounding titles as Ambassadors and Colonial Ambassadors. I inherited a damnosa haereditas when I took over this office. I was told the office in Italy was closed down. We had two representatives in Italy. One represented trade, the other the country generally. The man who represented the country generally was an avowed adherent of the internal enemies of this State, but was a thoroughly honest man. He resigned as he could not act in accordance with his conscience for this State. The other man was not an avowed adherent of the enemies of this State, and was not an honest man. When we found he was dishonest he ceased to represent us. We will reestablish that office as soon as——
You get an honest man.
We feel we are in a position to get value for our money. As regards the office in Spain, we had a man in Spain who reported that he thought the office could serve no useful purpose there owing to the fact that Spain had no foreign policy, and for other reasons. With regard to Berlin we have an office there, and I am advised by other Departments to whom it gives information that it is doing fairly useful work. At the same time I intend to go into the matter, and see if it needs reform and re-construction. The Deputy complains that he does not get commercial information in the paper that should be available. I am not quite sure how the matter stands at present, but it was intended some time ago by the Department of Industry and Commerce to publish a journal. I am not quite sure how that matter stands now, but the Consuls do send home information which is duly passed on to the Department of the Ministry for Industry and Commerce. Unless I am mistaken I think they intend making the use I explained of that. The Deputy complains that we have not explored new avenues. We actually have, as a matter of fact, because everything we did was new. We regard our Departments from the utilitarian point of view. We are not anxious to have elaborate Embassies in other countries where our representatives will spend money in entertaining people. We are only anxious to send a man abroad who will do valuable work so that we shall get value for our money. As time goes on it will be clearer where those representatives are unnecessary. and where they will do useful work. We do not propose to spend money, until we are sure it serves a useful purpose, and then we shall not hesitate to spend it. The Deputy asks what steps we took to inform foreign powers of our emergence. We did inform certain foreign powers of our emergence, and I have letters received in reply which were published in the public Press. They certainly include America, France, and Italy, and I think replies were received from Signor Mussolini and President Poincairé which were published in the Press. I had to work with the machinery I had inherited, and had to regard it necessarily on a temporary basis because the continuance of those various offices was determined by whether they served a useful purpose or not. As regards our representatives, most of those men are recognised as temporary until they are made permanent. The various Governments of the country in which they are living have been notified of their existence there, and of the functions they are to fulfil. With regard to the matter of the Ensign, and the Irish flag not being able to be flown in foreign waters that is a matter for the introduction of a Bill into this Dáil by the Minister for Industry and Commerce; I believe that Bill will be introduced some time in the future, and I suppose it was not considered as urgent as some of the other Bills introduced. The Deputy says we have adopted an attitude of saying to Great Britain "Yes, if you say so," and he instances the fact that we called our Department the Department for External Affairs. The British did not ask us to call it External Affairs, and we did not ask them if we would call it External Affairs. It was called so because it was to deal with everything that was external to our own territory. With regard to the non-registration of the Treaty the Deputy says that the Treaty was null and void because it was not registered with the League of Nations. We are acting on the assumption that the Treaty is not null and void; we have not asked England to register the Treaty with the League of Nations because we feel we are able to look after our own business, and as it is quite possible we shall ourselves be members of the League of Nations before the year is out, we shall look after the registration of our own Treaty.
The Deputy suggested the sending abroad of distinguished Irish people to "establish contact." Well, we are, undoubtedly, economical, since economy was forced upon us by the system which prevailed earlier with regard to this Department, when there was a great tendency to send distinguished people abroad. It was hard, exactly, to understand what they were sent abroad for. Entertaining abroad was, to my mind, an absolute scandal. The only way to bring it home to people who were in the habit of spending our money with an ease and distinction which was very expensive to us, was to stress the other pedal. We have stressed that, but under "incidental expenses," there is a certain margin allowed for entertaining abroad. However, I made it perfectly clear to every man abroad that if he entertains, we will require to know exactly how much he has spent, the reason he spent it, and how it was likely to improve our financial or international position.
With regard to a Commission to the Dominions to inform ourselves of the developments there, one of our representatives has been to Ottawa. He has not been established there, but he was there for a certain time and he pursued very useful inquiries. His mission has, undoubtedly, been very useful to us. He met people like the Prime Minister of Canada and everybody who was likely to be able to give us information. If, during the year, we find that it would be advisable to establish a permanent office there, it will be a matter for a supplemental estimate. In preparing this Estimate, which I think, gives in very full detail all that is being done, the Finance Department preferred us not to estimate merely for potentialities, but to deal with things that were obvious and were in the nature of established expenditure, and in the event of our embarking on any new measures, that would be a matter for consideration later.
The Deputy complains that I have not a commercial secretary, a political secretary, and a legal secretary assisting the Ministry. The Ministry of Industry and Commerce advises us commercially, and the Legal Department advises us on constitutional matters. With regard to the book about Ireland, that would be useful, but whether it would be so useful as to justify the expenditure that it would involve, in the present state of our finances, is very doubtful. With regard to the £5 for stationery in Paris, the Deputy if he tots the figures across will find that it should not be £5 but £85. With regard to 17/6 for the London Press Bureau office girl, that Bureau is being closed down and is being incorporated in the office of the High Commissioner over there, so that that matter does not arise. With regard to the small estimate for stationery and so forth, we have, owing to the bad tradition that had grown up, found it necessary almost to shriek economy to our representatives abroad, and we feel that if the estimate is small they will curtail expenses, and they will be less likely to be extravagant than they were when they had an unlimited estimate.
Will the Minister tell us, before he sits down, when the passports will be ready.
I am very disappointed myself that the passports are not ready so far. There is an international passport form in which elaborate precautions are taken to prevent forgery. The Stationery Office has the matter in hand. I have urged that everything that could possibly be done in Ireland should be done in Ireland. The matter of overprinting and binding of the passport, which is in one piece, folded and bound, presents certain technical difficulties in Ireland, which has made for this delay. The matter is well in hand now, I understand from the Stationery Office, and I think I will be able to have the passport made in Ireland and ready within the next couple of weeks.
I was hopeful that the statement by Deputy Gavan Duffy would have called forth the kind of statement one might reasonably expect from the Minister, in explanation of the Vote or programme of the Department for the coming year. I am sorry I have been disappointed. There are two or three matters on which I would still like to have some light. I note the explanation that has been given regarding the staff at Headquarters, and the reply to the case made by Deputy Gavan Duffy as to the shortage of expert advice. It did occur to me, when Deputy Gavan Duffy was speaking, that perhaps the Minister for Home Affairs would have a reasonable right to call upon the Minister for External Affairs for some information as to the conduct of different nations abroad in regard to their prisoners—Turkey or Prussia or Russia, for instance, or any of those countries which have had internal political troubles during the last 25 or 30 years.
The item on which I would like information, more particularly, is in regard to the publicity side. I raised the question the other day on another Vote, but did not draw any clear explanation as to whether it is true or not that under the Department then under discussion printed matter was going forward without any indication that it was an official publication. I wonder whether it is in connection with this department that we should discuss that question, or whether the Minister can put us in the way of finding out what department it is that is issuing printed matter of a propagandist kind, which would presumably come under Publicity, without any indication that it is official.
If it is this department I think it is a practice that ought not to be continued. It may be a secret service job, and it may be explained under the heading of Secret Service. I am inclined to think, and I will assume, for the purpose of this statement, that it is the Minister for External Affairs who is responsible, and that it is the Publicity Department that is the actual executive body issuing propagandist material, printed without any indication that it is official, or that it is issued in the name of or by the Government. The importance of this is that some of this matter is not boosting the Free State, but is boosting the present Government of the Free State and that is work that ought not to be done without a signature. It ought to be clear to the readers of such literature, if it can be ennobled by that name, that it is being issued by the Department of State responsible for such publicity.
There is an item here on page 201, "Books, Newspapers, Pamphlets, etc., on Publicity work, £7,500." Will the Minister tell us what newspapers, if any, are being published under his auspices, whether they are being published or whether it is only an estimate of money that will be required at some future date to publish newspapers. I am assuming that this is for the publication of newspapers, not for the purchase of newspapers. As regards the distribution of literature and billposting, I think we have a right to some information as to whether this is work done for a political party. Is it work being done for a political party to support political party propaganda? Would the Minister agree, and would the Dáil direct that samples of all this literature should be put on the table or exhibited somewhere so that members should know what is being done with their money? The Sub-head (b) 1 suggests that the Minister would be assisting the Dáil if he would give us a clear indication of the respective positions of the various representatives abroad. I notice, for instance, that there is an envoy at Washington; there is a Consul at New York, there is a representative at Geneva, a Consul at Brussels, Consul at Rotterdam, a Consul at Berlin, a Trade Representative and Head of the Irish Bureau at Paris. What I would like to know is whether there is anything to determine either the status or the description of these various representatives. Why is a man in one place called an envoy or a representative and in another place a Consul? Are they recognised as representatives by the Governments of the respective countries, or are they recognised as Consuls by the Governments of those countries? I am not inclined to find any fault even if they are not. I think we may still have to wait a little before full recognition of the new status is given, but I think the Dáil is entitled to know exactly where we stand in this matter, and whether there is any difference in the relationships as between one country and another in respect of these various representatives. On that matter also hinges this question of the use of a flag. It may not be a very great concern that a yacht going on an adventure may have to fly the British flag, but I think it is somewhat different if a Government vessel has to haul down its own flag and hoist a British flag when going into another port. The practice of hoisting the flag of the country the ships are visiting I think is a common act of courtesy, a trade custom and a diplomatic custom, but it is not usually accompanied by the hauling down of the flag of the country to which the ship belongs. If that is not the case with the merchant ship surely it ought not to be the case with the Government ship. I am reliably informed that that is the position in regard to this Irish Fisheries vessel that has been sent to Belfast to be repaired, that she is, as a matter of fact, flying the British flag, and that she hauled down any emblem which would show that she was a vessel belonging to the Irish Free State before entering the River Lagan. That requires some explanation, and whatever saving may have been made in the price of the repairs was very dearly purchased at that additional cost.
Referring again to publicity, perhaps the Minister will tell us whether the book on Ireland that I think Deputy Gavan Duffy referred to is actually in course of preparation. There was a certain prospectus issued some time ago that a book was to be published called "Ireland a Nation," under official auspices. Whether that was official auspices within Ireland or not, I do not know.
May I say I was not referring to that book at all.
I accept the Deputy's explanation, but if it were under official auspices I think it would have been more creditable to the official authorities if they had supervised at least the prospectus and not allowed the publishers to publish page after page of lies upon lies. I may be quite wrong in suggesting the official auspices were the auspices of the Irish Government. They may have been the auspices of the English or American Government. In that case the remarks have no pertinence to this discussion. I note too—and I think it is of interest, and perhaps the Minister for Industry and Commerce or his Assistant may take a note of it, as an indication of what might be done—that we can get a typist in Berlin for 11s. 6d. a week, inclusive. I have no doubt that is a salary almost equivalent to a millionaire's. But one wonders how far when we are going outside the Saorstát we should take advantage of the scale of living which would allow a typist to work at 11s. 6d. a week. I had better not pursue that; it might come on on another occasion.
The first point that my colleague for Co. Dublin suggested was that the Ministry for External Affairs should get information for the other Ministries. As a matter of fact it does. One of the first new works they took on for the last few months was to gather information as to publications, governmental forms, and documents, providing reports on Departmental matters for all the Ministries including the Ministry of Home Affairs. So that every Irish Department has the use of the information they want. With regard to publicity, I was not aware until I went back to my office after I heard the Deputy's remarks the other day that certain things had been published without the printer's imprint. During the last year this State was fighting for its life against anarchy. We had to issue a form of State propaganda. As far as I could I tried to arrange that that would not represent any one party above another, or at any rate boost the Government as distinguished from Government. It was important seeing there was hysterical propaganda going on all over the country to bring certain documents before the notice of the people who are inclined to be carried away by the hysteria that prevailed. For that reason these things were not issued with any State description on them, and I quite agree, and I was not aware until the Deputy himself pointed it out, that there was no printer's imprint. For a long time we had carefully to arrange that there was to be no imprint on the documents we issued. I suppose the printers came to associate lack of imprint with the work they did when I asked them to do it, and this is how the matter arose.
This item here, "books, newspapers, pamphlets, etc.," is not for the publication of newspapers, but when we think there is any special newspaper that we consider we should distribute we might buy up a few hundred or a few thousand copies for distribution in other countries. This is not with a view to publishing them but distributing them. In regard to "distribution, bill-posting, literature, etc.," we had in mind a condition of affairs that no longer exists. We had in mind need for what we might call the propaganda of civic duty.
In this estimate the word "consul" strictly should not be used. Where the word "consul" is used it is not right. The word "consul" should not be used inasmuch as these trade representatives have not received their exequateurs. A distinction is made between trade representatives and representatives. The chief function of a trade representative is on the commercial side, while our representatives deal with the general representations of all Irish Governmental Departments.
With regard to the flag I quite agree with Deputy Johnson in what he says in this, and there is a Bill which will be introduced very shortly that will cover that matter. The book on "Ireland" which described itself as under official auspices had nothing whatever to do with official auspices, and I, myself, wrote to the Editor to remove that. We had nothing whatever to do with books, and I explained to anybody who inquired that we had nothing to do with it. I was very careful to know as little as possible about it.
A sum of 11/6 a week does sound far fetched here with regard to the salary of employees in foreign parts, but I did arrange when dealing with these posts that these employees would be paid a set wage in English currency rather than to leave them at the mercy of their own foreign exchanges. As a matter of fact I saw that if we left them at the mercy of their own currency they might be getting 11/6 this week and would not be getting 6d. next week. I think these are the chief points that have been raised.
Question put, and agreed to.