In the absence of the Minister for Finance, I beg to move "That a sum not exceeding £147,216 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March, 1924, for the salaries and expenses of the Institution of Science and Art in Dublin, and for the Geological Survey of Ireland, and the annual grants to schools and classes of Science and Art and Technical Instruction, including sundry grants in aid administered by the Ministry of Agriculture." A sum of £50,000 had been voted on account.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - SCIENCE AND ART.
During the course of the last year there was a question raised on a few occasons with regard to the position of those teachers who are engaged in giving instruction in Irish under the local Technical Committees. My recollection was that there was some kind of a promise given that the cost of living bonus would be paid this year, or that arrangements would be made to make provision for that in the estimates for those teachers who are engaged by Local Committees to give instruction in Irish. Many Committees last year adopted schemes for the formation of classes giving instruction in Irish, but they found themselves considerably handicapped by the fact that provision had not been made in last year's estimate for paying the cost of living bonus to such teachers. Now, I would like to know whether such provision had been made in this estimate. Perhaps the Minister would be in a position to say on this Vote what exactly is the present position with regard to the College of Science, or whether he is now in a position to say what is to be its ultimate fate?
I desire to draw attention to one or two items. To some of them I drew attention when the Estimates for last year came before this Dáil sitting as a Constituent Assembly. The first is in respect to the National Library. The Estimate for last year was £4,000. That is now to be decreased by £1,400. The National Library is the only library of its kind in this country, and it would be no disparagement to those who are conducting it with very great efficiency and under very considerable difficulties, if one were to say, what they themselves and the Minister would be the first to admit, that this library is not at all as well equipped or as efficient as it should be. In fact there is no public library in Ireland that is as well equipped as it should be; there is no library in Ireland nearly as well equipped as other countries insist upon having their libraries, for the general public convenience. The Trinity College library is entitled to receive one copy of every publication. I believe it does not exercise that right; but, even if it did exercise that right, not everybody is privileged to use the Trinity College Library. The National Library is the only one that students and scholars and the general public can use. It is no uncommon experience for such students and scholars, who are using it not merely for purposes of pleasure—which would be quite sufficient justification—but really for equipment in knowledge either for University purposes or various purposes of study, that they are frequently unable to get books in the library which should be available. Even if last year's figure of £4,000 had been maintained in the present Estimate, it would still be impossible to equip the library as it ought to be equipped. How is it going to be possible to make any kind of a representative selection of books on £2,600 a year for national use, apart from such other allowances from such other quarters as perhaps may come? This is a substantial reduction on a very essential Vote, and I think it is very unhappy to see this reduction from £4,000 to £2,600. I drew attention before to a matter that I wish to briefly refer to again. It is the desire of this nation to economise to the utmost; the necessities for economy have been pressed upon us, and each Deputy is fully alive to the necessities for economy; but there is economy and economy, and to economise on salaries given to persons in the National Library or the College of Science or under the Geological Survey of Ireland is not wise. One notices that the persons there are receiving much less than the ordinary standard of pay given to administrative Civil Servants, although a much higher order of intelligence and special technical training is required of them. To economise in that respect is not for the good of this country. Take the salaries payable under the head of the Geological Survey. The Geological Survey of this country will be in the future one of the most important and imperative matters. The only survey available is a purely surface survey, that kind of survey that arose from very careful measurements and borings. That has been done in every country, and maps which are available for every country are not available for Ireland, and could not be, because of the slender monies made available for this section of the Department. We have continued that. It is not right that a person from whom administrative ability is required should receive, as they are receiving, salaries that range from £750 to £1,200. When one wants a person who has to have the same administrative abilities in addition to a specialised technical, scientific knowledge, it is not right that they should receive the rate of pay that is being accorded under this Estimate. I am making an appeal now for the scientists of this country. I regard this nation as a large business concern that has to be conducted efficiently. Any conductor of a large business, and the general public, know that the highest fees are paid to its technicians and its scientists because the rest of the business swings on the knowledge acquired by such persons and furnished by such persons in every year of development. It is done by large business concerns, not out of any theoretic fealty to science, but because it is a good paying thing to do. If it is so for a business house, it is much more so for a nation which is but a very large business institution. It is not in order for a Deputy to move for any increase, but I do urge that the question of the remuneration of scientists and technicians, all of whom come under this Vote, should be very carefully reviewed, or else we will have falling to us a fate that has been too often experienced in the past. Last year the Senior Geologist of Ireland, who is now no longer there, was offered twice the salary he was receiving in Ireland from one county in England to undertake its mere county survey, and he naturally left. That is not a very happy, a very desirable, nor a very hopeful state of affairs. The matter cannot be revised now, inasmuch as it would not be in order to vote for any increase. It would not be right to ask for any specific increase without an entire survey, but I do urge the Minister, when he is replying, to say whether he would be willing to cause special inquiry to be made with a view to seeing that the salaries of technical experts and scientists, falling under one or other of the various sub-heads of this departmental vote, should be thoroughly reorganised in order that they may be placed not merely on the same basis as administrative Civil Servants of senior grades, but on a higher basis still—on such a basis that we can hope to retain their services instead of their being attracted elsewhere by higher rates of pay, which we could little blame them if they took advantage of.
This is a Vote in the main for the College of Science and the various technical institutions through the country. I am merely administering these services for the moment on trust, as they will be transferred, and rightly transferred, immediately to another Department under the Ministries Bill. There is no necessity for me to dilate on the importance of technical education as I would be merely preaching to the converted. As we are talking about re-organisation and as Deputy Figgis has raised the question of what he calls the re-organisation of salaries I want to point out what is obvious, that it is not re-organisation of salaries but the re-organisation of the whole Department that is necessary, making quite sure that we get value for our money. I am not suggesting that we are not getting value under the present organisation. I agree that first-class scientists are entitled to be paid salaries which would keep them in Ireland, and that in the interests of the country you should not leave them open to the temptation of being attracted elsewhere. I think that within the limits of this Vote you could pay first class salaries to first class men and still make a saving. I do not say that a saving should be made, and I do not say that too much money is being spent on technical education. It would be very difficult to spend too much money on technical education, but I am asking for a sum of £197,216, which is the total Vote, and I am perfectly satisfied that if these departments were properly organised and co-ordinated, and if over-lapping were obviated you could within that figure give a far better service and pay far better salaries to our men. However, I only hold this department on trust, and it will be transferred immediately under the Ministries Bill to its appropriate Ministry. With regard to the College of Science, Deputies will notice that the Estimates provide for the College at its full strength. Again that raises a point bearing on the whole question of technical education. Technical education in this country has suffered from the fact that we have confused certain facts. I am not interested in the slightest in the College of Science or in any institution even though I am interested in technical education. What we want is to see what institution would give best value for the money. It does not at all follow that the College of Science in its present position and re-organisation is ideal, and we will never get very far if, as well as professing to have the interest of technical education at heart, we also are under the necessity of keeping the College of Science or any other institution in exactly the same position as when we received it. I hope we all have sufficient initiative and freshness of mind to be glad of an opportunity of improving these institutions and changing them where necessary. So far as the College of Science is concerned, we are asking for money that will keep it going at full strength, and it will be for the new Ministry, that will take charge of technical education as a whole, to say what are the proper functions of the College. I have my own ideas as to that, but that question does not arise at the moment. With regard to the National Library, there is a big decrease, and I regret it, but remember that these Estimates were all prepared when we were at war, or at least when we were preparing our Army Estimates on a war basis. I do not say that means that we should cut down every other service, but we must pick and choose. I can sympathise with the point of view of Deputies who think that we should not choose this particular item, but there it is, and I think, as a result of it, the Library will not be short of its ordinary quota of books. This is an estimate for one year, and I hope that next year the Minister who will then be in charge, in putting it forward will not have to make the same excuses that I am making for cutting down. In regard to Deputy O'Connell's point in regard to the teaching of Irish, any little delinquencies we may have committed in the way of cutting down the estimates for the National Library we have more than made up for by the liberal amount voted for teachers in which there is an increase of no less than £42,000 in regard to salaries and bonuses. It is a very big question whether by co-ordinating the teaching of Irish you could not get very much better results. While you have the Department of Agriculture, the Departments of Science and Art, Technical Education Committees, and the various County Councils, all interesting themselves in the same way in the Irish language, looking for money, there is no attempt at co-ordination. You will not get Irish properly taught, and you will get a large sum of money wasted unless there is co-ordination. I have no doubt that we could give the same service with better teaching if the systems were co-ordinated. We had to take the systems this year as we found them, and the Votes for the Department and for Science and Art provide £42,000 extra for the teaching of Irish. I put that forward as a plea for my parsimony in regard to the National Library.
I would like to draw attention to one point with regard to the National Library Vote that may be neglected. If the Vote will be rectified as the Minister suggests, the increased sum will be expended after twelve months time, within which time any books that will have been published will be irreplacable. It is as much as any Vote is capable of to keep pace with the books published in one year. It is beyond the possibility of one such Vote to catch up with the books that are essential to the National Library. I desire to add one further comment to what I said in regard to salaries. I agree that the Minister has put his finger on the weakness of the Vote when he makes reference to the necessity for re-organisation and co-ordination. There is no doubt that owing to the wasteful way these matters have been conducted in the past, a great deal of money has been lost. Nevertheless, there are such things as precedents that are sometimes helpful and sometimes very dangerous. The precedent established with regard to salaries may, sometimes, be helpful and sometimes it may be very dangerous. Here it is asserted that the senior Geologist is to receive £540 per year. Three assistant Geologists get £530. Each of the Assistant Geologists is then to receive £175 per year. Stated in those bald figures, the thing is absurd. Assuming that we were, as a nation, to make over to some private company the geological rights of Ireland as a concession, what would that concessionaire pay for geological services to explore the possibilities of this concern? Under the Constitution, the Irish people are their own concessionaires, and the Irish people should be prepared to pay for its geologists at least as much as a concessionaire company. I know what price he would exact and what price he would get. The Senior Geologist would be paid £5,000 a year by this Company, and we are paying him £540, and paying three trained technical assistants to him £175 a year plus such bonuses as may be laid down, and that is the establishment charge.
Who is going to get that job?
That is the kind of cheap remark that is very easy to make. The fact remains that this country is going to conduct its affairs as any business concern would conduct its affairs. It has to pay its scientists and technicians properly. While recognising the importance of the Minister's statement about the necessity for co-ordination, the principle should be laid down that the salaries stated in this Estimate for certain important positions shall not be regarded as a precedent in assessing salaries.
I think hardly anyone in the Dáil has drawn attention more often to the necessity for co-ordination in education than I, but I would be sorry if the latter remarks of the Minister would have the effect of creating the impression that this want of co-ordination which we all admit in the educational Department has resulted in a wastage so far as the teaching of Irish is concerned. That impression might be gathered from his remarks. I think it well, therefore, to say that although the Department for Education and his Department of Agriculture were engaged in finding some money for the teaching of Irish, there was very little overlapping in that direction, because the Department for Education made provision for the teaching of the children in the schools whereas the Technical Departments provided very largely for the teaching of Irish to adults in the night classes and at colleges, too. It is only right to say that for several years before the signing of the Treaty the Department for Agriculture was doing very much better than any other Department for the encouragement of Irish, even much more than the Department that should have control of this work—that is the National Board. To the efforts made by Local Technical Committees and the co-operation with the Technical Department is largely due the fact why many National teachers were able to get a knowledge of the language which should have been provided by the National Board. It is only right at this stage to say that I am very glad indeed such ample provision as has been stated by the Minister has been made, but I would be very sorry that those who are inclined— and we have them—to talk about the wastage of money in the propagation of Irish should be in a position to draw from the remarks of the Minister that there has been a leakage due to want of co-ordination so far as the teaching of Irish is concerned.
For fear people would not know what I said, I will repeat it. There has been a leakage as the result of want of co-ordination. I have no doubt whatever about it. There is no doubt whatever that if the teaching of Irish, and any other teaching you like, were properly co-ordinated we could get better value from the same money. The question of how much or how little should be spent on the teaching of Irish, does not arise. We can get better value from the teaching of Irish in particular, and the teaching of any subjects in general, if the departments are properly co-ordinated. There has been a leakage, which I hope, will not continue. With regard to Deputy Figgis's point: Geologist is a very fine word to use. Geologists are not the only sort of scientists.
I took that merely as a sign and symbol.
A symbol of a "stony broke."
Very well. I daresay science is not as well paid as it might be. However, the Deputy realises the importance of co-ordinating these institutions, the re-organised Department of Agriculture and Science and Art Institutions, and the College of Science. Although he agrees to that, I cannot understand his point of view, when he urges that immediately before re-organisation, we should go and pay higher salaries to existing officers despite the fact that those salaries have been paid for many years, and we are paying now as much as was paid in the past. Next year our Army Estimates will not be on a war basis. It is hardly the time to make a change in these matters in the very year during which we intend to reorganise departments, probably to abolish some positions, and to make new ones. I do not make any excuses for those salaries. I would not ask the Dáil to consider the question of increasing the salaries in institutions like those that are going to be reorganised at this stage.
I refrained from any criticism whatever on the College of Science Estimates simply because the Ministries' Bill will soon be before us and then we shall find ourselves in a much better position to discuss the functions and scope of work of a State Institution of Science. It seems to me merely a waste of time and energy at the present moment to deal with these matters. They belong to the past and our minds turn towards the future.
Question put and agreed to.