I move the Schedules.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - THE SCHEDULES.
I want to ask the Minister for Finance, on No. 13 of Schedule B, Part 2, a question. A few days ago, I think, it was put to the Minister for Local Government whether the Ministry had made any arrangements regarding the giving of effect to the recommendations of the Reconstruction Commission in respect of the re-making and re-conditioning of roads. The Minister for Local Government replied that they had considered it. I think he went so far as to say the matter was under discussion by the Executive Council, but that the matter of finance was the obstacle. I want to ask the Minister for Finance whether any decision has been come to to put into effect the whole or any part of the recommendations of that Commission on Reconstruction in respect of the re-conditioning and re-making of roads. When the Commission was set up very positive assurances were given that the object of it was to find out the best means of setting about public work of a valuable kind, and special instructions were given to the Commission to consider such works as would be most likely to give general employment to a large number of men at an early date. Some members of the Commission agreed to go upon that Commission on the distinct understanding that effect would be given to recommendations, or at least that the Commission would not be looked upon as a stop-gap, and its serious purpose was to bring forward recommendations with a view to the immediate setting about public works of a valuable kind in themselves, and, incidentally, which would absorb a large number of unemployed men. The report on the re-conditioning of roads was submitted, I think, about a month ago, and I was hopeful that by this time County Councils—the Roads Authorities—would have had sufficient assurances from the Minister as to warrant them in going ahead with the work, and to put into operation schemes that are already in being. I think the Commission is entitled to know—and I am sure that the public is entitled to know— whether the Ministry intends to give effect without any delay to the recommendations of that Commission or not. It is possible to set to work some thousands of men within a week or two on this very necessary undertaking. It is possible to set to work a good many thousands if the scheme were taken in hands and given effect to by the local authorities as well as the national authorities. Everybody recognises that it is essential work, whether there was an unemployment problem or not. It is essential work in many parts of the country to enable the Ministry of Finance to get on with its work, because in many parts the condition of the roads is such as to prevent or curtail the business facilities of those who are likely to be called upon to finance the State. But we have the fact that there are very large numbers of men waiting for employment, anxious for employment, suffering because of unemployment, and this is a public work that can be put into operation quickly. I pressed the Ministry to tell us whether they had come to any decisions on that report; whether they have decided to instruct the local authorities in conjunction with the Roads Department of the Local Government Department to go ahead, or what other decision they may have come to. It will not be satisfactory to be told that it is still in abeyance, and that it will have to wait for some time before any decision is come to. It is a matter of urgency; and when we are reminded of promises made and undertakings given I submit that this is one of the promises and of the undertakings that ought to be ratified and given effect to.
This matter has been the subject of preliminary consideration only, and I am not in a position to say that it is at all likely that the report sent up by the Committee on Reconstruction is likely to be carried into effect. I am saying that purely as Minister for Finance, bearing in mind what available money there is for expenditure on this or any other purpose. When the promise was given to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce that Reconstruction money might be available, and would if we were in a position to get it, the circumstances were not the same as we know them now. We were not in a position to state at that time that the balance between receipts and expenditure on perfectly normal services was very slender, if there was a balance at all; and the duty devolves on the Minister for Finance, either now or in the future, to see that there is a balance, and that at any rate the balance will not be on the wrong side before he can undertake to appropriate any money for services other than those already undertaken. I should say that, from my own examination of this report, it was an unreasonable assumption for the Committee to make that it would be possible for the State to provide £2 for every £1 that was subscribed by the local authority. I am speaking from recollection. I think that was the suggestion that was made at the time. Those who have had long experience of local government will be able to say that there were three primary duties cast on local authorities: Provision of water, maintenance of roads, and, I think, the provision of light or the disposal of sewage. Essentially I think road maintenance is a matter for local authorities. If local authorities live beyond their means and devote moneys extravagantly for other purposes, it is unreasonable to expect that the Government must subsidise them to the enormous extent anticipated by them and by this Commission. We are subsidising Urban Councils practically to that extent in Connection with building. But I have no hesitation in saying that it will not be possible in the future, after the undertakings we have given for whatever sum is in the estimates for the services of this year, either now or in the future, to devote any such proportion as that for the solution of any question of which the local authorities must bear their part.
I mentioned a few times that the temporary financial adjustments with the British Government have taken considerable time. One has just been completed in connection with the Local Taxation Account, and I have instructed the Ministry of Finance to take up the question of whatever sums are due out of the Road Board Fund. When we have discovered what that amount is, and made some inquiries as to the collection of the sixpenny rate for this year, I think we will be in a position to indicate how far the programme outlined by the Reconstruction Commission can be undertaken. But I do think that this particular service is one which has benefited very largely by the Motor Tax, and that with the sum raised by the local authorities in the ordinary way for roadmaking, and the sum we have under the Damage to Property Act instructed local authorities to strike—that that sum ought to be sufficient to deal with this particular service. I know that everything that Deputy Johnson said is quite true. The roads are in a deplorable condition, and a great deal of reconstruction and maintenance work ought to be done during the year, but I am not in a position to hold out any hope whatsoever, having regard to the present state of our finances, that any assistance can be given in respect of this particular service.
The Minister's statement is not only unsatisfactory in what it really says, but in what is implied. If State funds cannot be made available for such a necessary work as the re-making of roads which have been damaged to a very great extent by military traffic, then no moneys can be raised for any purpose with a view to absorbing or employing unemployed men during the next year. If public moneys cannot be found for this purpose, then I ask any member of the Dáil to suggest any better purpose on which public moneys could be spent. The Minister's position is that no public moneys shall be spent for any public purpose of this kind or, impliedly, for any other purpose, because there could be no better purpose than the necessary re-making of public roads. What does the Minister say? That the upkeep of roads must be the responsibility of the local authorities. That might have been good doctrine before the coming of the motor car. But it is utterly wrong doctrine to-day. The trunk roads of the country are national roads whether called so or not. For the Minister to lay down that they must be maintained out of the local funds, and that the State cannot come to their assistance except by the supplementary grant out of the Motor Tax is, I think, a very disappointing statement.
It is very sad to hear the Minister speak as he has done, forgetting that a great part of the damage to the roads has resulted from the traffic of military wagons, which was not local traffic, but national traffic, if any traffic can be called national traffic. That is a responsibility which ought not to be thrown upon local authorities. It certainly should be met out of State funds. To be told now that no such funds, except such as may come out of the Road Tax, are to be available for the re-conditioning and re-making of public roads is most unsatisfactory. I can only take it as meaning that in the mind of the Ministry no public funds are to be raised for public works, because I cannot imagine any more necessary public work than this. I believe it is the idea of the Ministry itself that the work of re-making public roads is essential work. If State moneys cannot be devoted towards the re-conditioning and re-making of public roads— admittedly a necessary public work— then I ask what other work can public money be devoted to. It practically means that no public moneys are going to be available for setting people to work and getting this problem touched upon. I am very disappointed and astonished that the Ministry should come to that conclusion. It means that the work of the Commission—the work it has finished and the work it is pursuing—is all useless. It need not have been begun, and it is no use trying to finish it, because the Government says no funds will be available.
I have listened to the statement of the Minister for Finance with quite as much regret as Deputy Johnson. I think that the utterance of the President was not the utterance of a Minister considering broad schemes of national requirement, but the utterance of an impecunious Minister for Finance.
It is quite true, I think, what Deputy Johnson said that the statements of the Minister of Finance rendered useless in future any further meeting of the Reconstruction Commission. Why was this Reconstruction Commission set up? It was set up with certain terms of reference, and was designed to cover considerations of broad general works of national utility. I was invited to become a member of that Commission, and I did so with very great reluctance. My reluctance was largely due to the fact that these terms of reference were stupendous. They embraced nearly every phase which was possible to conceive of national regeneration. The terms of reference were comprehensive enough to embrace all, and were intangible and vague enough to exclude anything which was undesirable to deal with, but why was such a Commission set up, if it was not to find means by which the State could operate, through its finance, for the well-being of the community? If these were the considerations which were to govern the deliberations of such a Commission, the announcement of the Minister for Finance to-day, renders it useless to pursue the hope that such assistance will be forthcoming. Certainly there is great argument and logic in Deputy Johnson's contention that the trunk roads of the country are not matters of local consideration, but are matters for State consideration. There is no section of the main roads or trunk roads of the country the use of which is confined to the particular area through which these sections of the road pass, and as Deputy Johnson pointed out, the main damage done to these roads is by the heavy military motor traffic that has passed over them in the past few years. These roads were never designed or never prepared for such a traffic, and the County Councils cannot be expected to face the task of keeping these roads in a proper state upon their own resources. Furthermore, the question of the re-conditioning and the re-construction of the roads is, undoubtedly, a matter of consideration, because the roads are the most vital arteries of national transport, and the condition of these roads will be a matter that will enter very seriously into the improvement of the commerce and trade and industry of the country in future.
I must say I am really disappointed with the utterance of the President, who, of course, has to count every penny in the national purse, and if he discovers that money is not available, I presume he is not to blame, but the fact had better be stated, and we will know where we stand. It certainly does bring us right up against the fact that to appoint a Commission to enter into the consideration of schemes, the carrying out of which are absolutely contingent upon State aid, and when they have proceeded to a certain extent with their deliberations and their report, to inform them that such State aid is not available or likely to be available, makes it futile and farcical to proceed with such Commission unless the State is in a position to make good its implied undertaking that it gave in setting up the Commission.
I wish to add my voice to the disappointment expressed by Deputy Johnson and Deputy Milroy at the announcement made by the President. It will be cold comfort to the labourers of the country who are walking about hungry, to learn what the Minister has to say about this reconstruction on the roads. Take my own County of Kildare. There are hundreds of men starving, and when they go to the Labour Exchanges to get their 6s. or 7s. a week they are kept waiting for a long time for their miserable few shillings. We are told the matter is receiving attention. Time after time we are assured that the claims for unemployment benefits are receiving attention, but how they are to procure food while they are waiting to receive it is a matter of no moment for this Legislature. The Minister now says that the local authorities must maintain and re-condition the roads, and in these he includes the trunk roads. How are local Urban Councils with small rateable areas and large distances of trunk roads running through them, to bear the expense? Naas has a trunk road from Dublin to Kildare for a length of ten miles running through it. How are the people of that district to maintain that out of their income? They have to do so, and consequently the rates are 17s. 6d. in the £. That trunk road passes through their district, but it does not bring any money into their district, and they have simply to maintain the road for this through trunk traffic through their district.
There is another matter that I want to bring to the notice of the Minister, and that is that the few industries that we have in the country are being shut out and cut off. We have a mineral water factory in Newbridge, with a bottling store attached to it, but these people cannot get their goods into the Curragh simply because one contractor has a monopoly of supplying everything to the military. The local people are simply shut out, and yet they are supposed to be loyal to the State. In Ballymore there is a little woollen industry, and that is closed down and unable to give any employment. Still the cloth for the uniform of our soldiers comes from Bradford and Leeds. That is not right. I asked a question about a man who was in collision with a military lorry: this man was working for the County Council, and his car was smashed and his horse injured. When he spoke to the military, and asked them to get out of his way, he was told to go and be damned. That was the way he was treated by these men. That unfortunate man is idle for the last ten weeks because of this accident, but we are told the matter is receiving attention. Perhaps it will receive attention in twelve months' time. There is another matter I would like to bring under the notice of the Minister for Defence, I presume I can do so under this Bill.
I think it would be better to get this question of local loans settled first.
I would ask the Minister for Finance to consider seriously this question of having work started under a road scheme. I would ask the Government to give the people a chance to get work, because if the scheme is delayed too long there will be no people to work when you have work for them; they will all have been starved to death. It has been said that there is no money to start reconstruction works, but there is plenty of money, apparently, to support the Army. I would ask the President to give the people a chance to live in their own country, and one of the ways to do that is to have a road works' scheme put into operation.
I think that in the long run the Minister for Finance will find that the attitude he has expressed here to-day is, from the State point of view, a mistaken attitude. I thoroughly agree with the Deputies who have spoken on this matter, and particularly in connection with the roads. It is not possible for the local authorities to handle this particular problem satisfactorily. It is not a problem that affects merely the Saorstat, but it affects other countries as well. It is an urgent problem in Great Britain and the Six Counties and elsewhere, and the whole movement in these countries is towards a realisation by the State of a greater responsibility, particularly for the main and the trunk roads. I will just content myself with giving a case in point which came within my own knowledge, and probably within the knowledge of the Minister for Finance. I refer to the county surveyor's estimate for certain roads in the Dunshaughlin area. Deputy Colohan has spoken about the main roads carrying Dublin traffic southwards. The roads I am referring to carry general traffic from Dublin northwards. They form one of the great arteries towards the North. Now, the county surveyor and the local council in this area have found that they could not deal decently, not to speak of dealing properly, with the roads in the area unless they struck a rate that amounted to about £17,000. That sum, I understand, has actually been collected, though there are some parts of the country in which the rates were struck but not collected, but in this particular area that amount has actually been collected. The Government Department concerned has insisted—I do not know whether it was on the suggestion of certain deputies who asked certain questions in the Dáil in respect of this matter—on the reduction or the holding over of that estimate by reducing it by £6,000 or £7,000, leaving the sum available at between £10,000 and £11,000. The roads that I am referring to have suffered very severely from heavy military and other traffic, and cannot be put into any sort of decent upkeep on a sum of £10,000. The thing is impossible. The county surveyor, as I know, is not a man who is wasteful or extravagant. He is a man who knows his job, and the greater part of that sum of £10,000 has already been spent in the last four or five years. What remains, if the Government Department's decision is to be carried out, is only a sum of between £2,000 and £3,000 —and that is supposed to enable the Council to carry on, as far as road-making is concerned, for the next seven or eight months. It would be impossible for the Council to carry on with that small sum. The fact of the matter is, that the points raised in this interim report will have to be dealt with, and dealt with immediately, because in going over the country, and even outside the Saorstat, one finds that the heavy traffic of the last few years has done great damage to the roads. The likelihood is that within a comparatively short time the roads will be beyond supporting any kind of traffic on account of the damage that had been done to them, and it is not possible for the local councils to deal with that problem as it ought to be dealt with. The roads are a national concern, and they ought to get national assistance. There were several other matters concerned in this interim report. There is, for instance, the matter of the upkeep of the roads and the traffic on the roads, and there is the matter of unemployment. One, in my opinion, is equally as important as the other; but it certainly will not give anything like satisfaction throughout the country, and, even if it did give satisfaction to the superficial observer, it will not be satisfactory from the State point of view, or from the point of view of the whole country, because it is tantamount to a neglect of this work by the central authorities or by the State. My complaint is that the State is going to allow the roads to get into such a state that they will be unfitted for the traffic they ought normally to bear.
There has been a good deal of criticism from Deputies on this question, and I must say that it has been rather helpful. I certainly cannot complain of the tone of it. I would ask Deputies to consult first of all the items that are down in this Appropriation Bill, and to take the sum total of them, and to add to that sum the total amount that had to be borrowed last year, and which I indicated to the Dáil more than once has got to be met by the 31st March, the last day of the financial year that we are now in, and to deduct from these two sums the estimated revenue for the current year. If they do that they will find that there is a deficit of twenty-five millions. The question now to consider is, first of all, the raising of that sum of twenty-five millions, and, secondly, whether we are proceeding on a strictly economic basis to raise that sum of twenty-five millions. During the last few months, in the discussions on the Finance Bill No. 1, Deputies will recollect that several attempts were made to reduce the revenue by restricting the taxes upon certain goods, including, I think, tea and sugar, and also to reduce the Income Tax, so that we would have been left even with a larger deficit had these recommendations been adopted at that time. Now, when I say, as Minister for Finance, that this thing is impossible, and that that thing is impossible, I am not speaking of what my own wishes or sympathies would be in the matter, but simply telling you what are the exact facts of the case that you have got to deal with. If the Commission which considered the question of reconstruction entered into a consideration of that question with any idea that Government money was to be available to such an extent for subsidising what is, in essence, a charge on the local authorities, then I say that they made a very serious mistake. I have the highest respect for practically every member of that Committee, those of them whom I recollect I admire for their business capacity, ability and zeal, but I say that they did not enter into the consideration of that question with the mind that the circumstances of the times should have insisted on. The State cannot afford, under any conceivable circumstances that I know of, unless the Government is to be reconstructed on an entirely different basis, to give such a subsidy as £2 for £1 to a local authority for what is mainly a local service. This particular question of road reconstruction is not provided for in this estimate. A sum of £100,000 is put down, but out of that amount it is proposed to advance to persons who have secured decrees in the period between January, 1919, and July, 1921, such sums as will enable them to proceed with the reconstruction of their dwellings. There is, however, provision this year for local authorities raising in their various districts, sixpence in the pound, which the Commission estimated, I think, should produce £260,000, but which I am of opinion will not exceed £250,000. There is also an estimated income to be received for motor taxes of practically an equivalent amount, and divided by twenty-six it will be found that a sum approaching £20,000 per county, on the average, will be available. That, together with the ordinary normal sums estimated for by the local authorities, should make an appreciable advance upon the present condition of the roads, granted the goodwill and the cooperation of all persons concerned. In certain cases there was some objection, very considerable objection, to raising this sixpence in the pound, and I presume to some extent the idea may have prevailed in the mind of the persons concerned, apart from any Irregular sympathies that they may possibly have given expression to in such an objection, that this was war wear and tear and consequently that the Central Authority should provide for it. I think we have dealt sufficiently with that in the Damage to Property Act, and that there is no necessity to go into the matter again except to say this, that it is the only expense that the local authorities are asked to contribute towards all the losses that have been sustained during the last four or five years. I have explained over and over again that whatever anybody lost the local authorities lost nothing in this war; that their withheld grants have been paid to them, and a very considerable and marked reduction has taken place in the rates. Certain local authorities, not entering into the spirit of this Damage to Property Act, struck a smaller sum for the repair of the roads than would normally have been inserted in their estimates if it were not for this sixpence in the pound. This sixpence in the pound malicious injury rate and the revenue anticipated from the motor taxes, together with the sum that I have mentioned, which is certainly in the neighbourhood of another quarter of a million, provides something like three-quarters of a million pounds for improving the roads. That is a very considerable estimate, and unless the Dáil is willing and anxious to strike further levies in the nature of taxation, additional impositions, there is no chance whatever of the consideration of any extension of the Estimates that are before you. I am sure that it is unnecessary to stress the importance of balancing the Estimates, balancing your receipts and expenditure. That is not done this year. It must be done before the end of this financial year, and it will mean that there must be a very considerable economy in the services that have been proposed, or, failing that, a very considerable increase in the taxes that have been levied.
The Minister has reminded the Dáil of the state of the Estimates—the income estimated and the expenditure estimated. I would like to draw the attention of the Minister and of the Dáil to these two facts, that the Commission was set up and began its sittings about February. The Estimates, showing all that he has now told us, were prepared by his Department in March at latest, and were published towards the end of March. If there was no chance then in view of those Estimates, of any public funds being available for public works, why was not the Commission told so, and it would not have wasted its time? The Commission was set up to make recommendations, having particularly in mind the urgency of the problem of unemployment, and to submit interim reports as might be found necessary. There is no other way of financing public works except out of State funds; there is no other way of making these roads fit for use except out of State funds; there is no other way of meeting the housing problem except by a considerable drain on national taxation. If that is the position—if the Minister cannot find any other method of dealing with these problems—then scrap all your Commissions. Do not pretend that you are setting up Commissions to suggest or to advise on points of public work, and then say, "We have no money, and we are not going to get any money." I say that it is a waste of time and a scandal.
It is no less a scandal than asking for £2 for £1 for any service. I think that was the most scandalous recommendation, having regard to the necessity for economy, that was ever made, and I am astonished at the Committee making such a recommendation.
It is a recommendation to spend a million for two years.
And with no return.
Are good roads no return, no benefit to the country?
What return will you get out of it? What employment will it give you?
It gives you roads. Roads are what we want.
It gives you something that you will wear out in a few years.
There are two or three matters on which I would like to have the opinion of the Executive before we pass from finance. First of all, the Dáil is aware that in the Army Estimates there are large sums dealing with purchases of munitions and various articles of war, and many of these come from England. We have always spoken of these matters and heard them spoken of as purchases. I want to know whether it is the view of the Minister for Finance or of the Minister for Defence that Ireland is to pay for the guns and for the military things obtained from England. I devoutly hope that no such heresy will be preached from the Ministerial Benches, but one never knows. I put it to the Dáil that the effect of the Treaty is a dissolution of partnership, an unwilling partnership if you like, but still a partnership; and upon that dissolution we are entitled to a valuation of the assets; that consequently any material which it may have been necessary to obtain from England ought to be treated as so much on account of the prospective assets which will, no doubt, be recognised as ours when the accounts and balance sheet are finally drawn up. But it would be useful that we should know that the view of the Ministry is that this dissolution of partnership is one in which we are entitled to the benefit of our share, obtained by many millions of Irish money, of such items as those to which I refer. There is another question that I should like to know the Ministerial view upon, the question of Trusts. Has the Ministry a policy as to the admission of foreign Trusts into this country? I raise the matter very briefly, and I desire to take no particular view on the question; but for the purpose of enabling those who have expert advice behind them, to tell us what their policy is. I have no objection whatever to foreign competition; but Trusts are in a rather different category. Every considerable country, and many small countries, have found it necessary in recent years to pass special legislation, either to keep out the foreign Trusts or to restrict the operations of Trusts of their own as well as foreign Trusts. I am not sure whether it is the Ministerial view that the curiously-drafted instructions comprising the Terms of Reference to the Committee recently set up on fiscal matters, would authorise recommendations from that body on that particular question. I sincerely hope they will give us their recommendations on this question. Let me point out to the Minister one difficulty likely to rise in the case which we all have in mind. Quite apart from the question of under-cutting and other obvious dangers, what is going to happen if a big foreign tobacco trust, having established itself in this country, establishes a number of retail shops of the Salmon and Gluckstein line all over the Irish cities? There will be nothing to prevent them; and these shops will be exceedingly attractive. Where will the retailer be then? I do not want to go into detail on the matter, but I do want to know if this problem has been considered and if there is a Ministerial policy upon it. The danger, it seems to me, is that when one allows large sums of money to be spent by foreign Trusts of that kind coming into this country; that the next Government, when it has to tackle the matter, will be in a difficult position, because these people will have come into the country, and will have spent their money. I quite admit there is plenty of attraction on the other side, the employment they will give and the better tobacco. perhaps, they will bring in; but is there a policy to have any restriction on them, or are they to be let in without restrictions, and if not what will these restrictions be?
I hope that the next Government will profit by the experience they have had in the Dáil, and, before asking the Dáil to pass Estimates it will place all the Estimates before a Special Committee on Estimates. I hope that if the next Government does not want to do so, that the next Dáil will insist on their doing so. I am very anxious to see an Irish Parliament setting up such Commissions as they have in foreign Parliaments for dealing with such matters. In France there are five such Commissions, of which Finance is one. I think it will be generally agreed that it will be impossible for the Dáil, and it has been proved impossible, to do itself justice in the matter of examining the Estimates put before it by the Executive in the absence of some such particulars (rather than vague general headings), as would be put before a Special Committee. I do think that a great deal of time would have been saved, and more efficiency secured in dealing with these matters, as well as, perhaps, some reduction, had not the Ministry objected for some reason, which I have never been able to fathom, to allow special Committees to deal with the Estimates. I hope that next year that course will be followed.
To return to the matters which we were discussing before Deputy Gavan Duffy spoke, I think I might say that the issue is pretty well knit, and the issue is whether the main arteries of the country, apart from the railways, are purely a local concern, a local interest and a local charge, or whether they are partly a national interest and charge and partly a local interest and charge. The President takes the view that they are purely local. With all due respect to his knowledge, and to his interest in the country, I submit that he is altogether and quite mistaken. The roads in Ireland are of two kinds. There are the local roads, and there are the main or trunk roads, and by every argument of common sense and economy even, they are as truly a national concern as any other line of transport or of communication, whether that line be railroad or telegraph or any other line. For that reason alone the State and the National Exchequer has an interest in and should have a charge upon them, but, as I have shown, so far is the Ministry from taking that view, that even when a local council goes out of its way to shoulder a burden which is not properly its own, and to collect what is calculated to be the bare minimum sufficient for keeping the roads in some kind of repair, the Ministry refuses to allow that council to spend the money which it has collected, and refuses, over and above that, to give anything towards the upkeep of the roads in that district. "What return," asks the President, "shall we get; what return in employment." A fairly considerable return in employment. The President thinks not, but he has been answered: "Thoroughly good roads.""Oh," he says, "they will only last two or three years." Now, in his quiet moods the President would only laugh at anyone else who would make such a ridiculous statement—as if the roads were not of great importance and concern. Everyone knows, no matter what the road is, that it must be renewed at periodical intervals. The recommendations made by the Commission referred to are for the strengthening of the roads and the re-conditioning of them. I think it would be unfair, after the criticism, to put it no stronger, that the President has made on the Commission's report. The sum and substance of the Commission's report is that a scheme of finance be something like this, that the local authorities strike a special improvement rate of between 3d. and 9d. in the £1, calculated, whether the calculation is correct or not it is another thing, to bring in £282,000 per annum.
If a small amount could be raised from the banks for each £1 raised locally, the State would add £2. Now, I would point out that towards the State's own contribution there would go the motor tax, estimated at £250,000. It would mean a considerable saving of unemployment, and, with the reduction of Army expenditure referred to by the Commission, would help considerably. In the long run what the State is asked to do is not simply to pay out £2 in the new for every one pound raised locally, but to pay something which would not actually be £2 of new expenditure, because there would be a portion of the £2 saved or brought in in other ways.
It is obvious to everybody who has travelled on the roads that there should be restrictions and limitations on heavy traffic. There are certain restrictions as regards the railways in relation to this class of traffic, but everybody who has travelled the roads knows that it is ruining them from one end to the other. I have gone over a stretch of road, and the motor traffic is so heavy on that road that it is almost impassable in bad weather. The President is taking, in my opinion, a most peculiar view of the whole thing, and I submit it is quite a wrong view that the main roads are a matter of purely local concern. They are not. They are just as much a national concern as the industry and trade of the country, or as the railways or Post Office, or any other service that is recognised as of really national importance. For that reason they ought to be not only a national concern, but the nation, as apart from the local community, should bear its share of the charge for improving them and making them fit for the traffic they are required to bear.
There is one little matter which I would like to bring before the Minister for Defence. It is a case of a tailor who was employed in Newbridge Barracks. He was invited by a military officer to come over from Leeds, where he was employed, to take charge of the tailor's shop in Newbridge. He came over, but he was unable to get to Newbridge in time—that is, before the order stopping recruiting was issued. Consequently he would not be attested. He worked in all 466 hours, and he has not received any payment. I sent on a letter, a copy of which I have in my hand, to the Quartermaster-General at Parkgate Street, on the 23rd of this month. He replied on the phone that he would deal with the matter, but as everybody is of opinion that the Dáil will soon be dissolved, I would like to see this matter cleared up. I would like to get an assurance from the Minister that he will see that this man is paid. He is walking about since the 21st, and it is not fair I would ask an assurance from the Minister that he will look into the matter with a view to having it cleared up. I know the man for twenty-five years to be a respectable citizen of Newbridge, and in my letter to the Quartermaster-General I told him that his competency as a military tailor could be vouched for by Captain Fitzgerald and Captain Ward, of the Supplies Department, Island Bridge. There is no question of any slackness on his part. The man has been treated very unfairly, and I think it speaks badly for the Army regulations and discipline that a man should be treated in that callous way.
I can assure the Deputy that the matter will be looked into.
In answer to Deputy Duffy's question, I think the sum down in the Estimates for warlike stores is £115,000. The other matter to which he drew attention is somewhat belated, because we have been looking after that for the past twelve months. It has not escaped our attention at any time that a portion of these warlike stores, such as furniture, etc., should be claimed for. We are not in a position to say at the present moment what is the value of the total amount, or what our particular share would be, but we have not lost sight of that matter.
With regard to the other matter, I think that was before the Dáil before. I take it the question of Trusts means the Imperial Tobacco Company, though I do not know whether that is a Trust or not. That matter has been under the consideration of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and a deputation from the Irish tobacco manufacturers met in my office some time ago the officials of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. It was arranged that the Ministry should see the representatives of the Imperial Tobacco Company. I have not had a report on that yet. As far as policy is concerned, I do not think it is possible to lay down lines of policy governing everything which affects the interests or vital needs of the country within the short space of twelve months; not do I think it at all likely that within the next few years one could give off hand a prescription which would cure all the ills we have to cure or any succeeding Government will have to cure in our time. Every disorder, I suppose, requires a very close diagnosis, and possibly when it is diagnosed it is much easier to cure it. In this particular case I expect the Deputy knows that there is a considerable amount of Irish money sunk in that particular limited liability company. I expect also the Deputy, who is not, I think a nonsmoker, knows that the particular brands manufactured by that Company are effected by very large numbers of people. If the Company were to be excluded, the manufacture of those would be going to foreigners, as would also the profits. Income tax and so on would not be coming into the Irish Exchequer, nor would they contribute anything towards rates. I am sure the Ministry for Industry and Commerce is considering those questions.
If I may say so, I did not raise the matter with a view to that specific case, but with a view to getting Government policy laid down generally as regards trusts. That case gave occasion for it.
I do not know whether the Ministry of Industry and Commerce have a policy with regard to the Trusts as a subject in themselves. I do not know whether they have got that far. I should say their hands have been very full since the Ministry was established with regard to all the different services that they administer. There has been some industrial effervescence of one sort or another, and I am sure a good deal of the time of the Ministry has been absorbed in composing the natural differences that occur between those two different orders in the community— Labour and Capital. I think that the matter that the Deputy refers to will be considered by the Fiscal Committee. I should say that it would. A definite line of policy has not been adopted with regard to this, nor would it have been possible, having regard to the work we have had to do for the last twelve months, to have examined the problem and to have weighed all the pros and cons of it, and to submit a proper report to the Dáil on the subject or to be able to define a policy with regard to it.
Question put and agreed to.
The Title put and agreed to.