I just wish to say this. I carefully refrained last Friday from participating in the debate or expressing any possible kind of preference as to the alternatives that were then before the Dáil. But the Dáil did ultimately, at the end of the debate, come to a decision that this was the course to be adopted, and I have only this now to say, that this is the course I myself called for nearly a month ago, and this is the course I am glad that the Dáil has adopted. I would have wished further not merely that all the documents would be published, but also that, being published, they should be released from privilege in order that any person or persons who might feel so disposed might be free to take any action they wished in the matter, either in regard to the documents themselves or in regard to any comments upon them. I do not know whether that is or is not possible. I just put that forward now. I only wish to say that the decision to which the Dáil came last Friday was a decision that I am glad it has come to, and I think it is the right decision.
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I understood that the President intended moving an amendment in some shape or form to this motion dealing particularly with Departmental files.
That is in the motion.
In that case, will you take an amendment from me to this motion.
What is the amendment?
I wish to move an amendment asking the Dáil to delete all words after "circulated"—"except such Departmental Minutes as, in the opinion of the Committee, are not necessary to be published."
The proceedings were not quite regular on Friday. The motion proposed by Deputy Cooper was amended, by general leave, to include these words. That is my recollection. That is to say, it was decided to put them in. I do not see how you can now decide to take them out.
I must say that was not my interpretation of the discussion, but if it is the feeling of the Dáil I do not wish to be the exception, though I do think that because of the peculiar turn of affairs regarding this whole subject it is an inadvisable decision. I readily concede that it is wrong to publish all Departmental files in a matter of this kind, for the great majority of them have no interest whatever for the public, that apart from that interest or non-interest it is essential that subordinates should be kept outside the public view. Nevertheless, I am satisfied that the retention of all documents, no matter how trivial in this instance, is necessary, and because, as I say, of the peculiar circumstances of the case—not that it should be made a precedent—I consider it an ill-advised course to withhold one single document. I do not want to move a motion on the subject, and if the citizens outside could see it from the point of view I see it, I would be entirely in favour of falling in with the majority view of the Dáil, but I again say, it is a rather unfortunate decision. As this subject will not arise again possibly, until the final Report comes on, I want to know from this Committee whether or not they have made up their minds regarding the presence of the Press at their future sittings.
The Minister cannot ask the Committee that question in this way.
Well, if I cannot, I can certainly do it in another way, and the subject is of such importance that I will have to trouble the Dáil within the next few days to discuss a motion on this subject. I now give notice that I intend to move a motion that all future meetings of this Committee be conducted in public.
It is not quite clear to me whether I am speaking to the Postmaster-General's amendment or to my own motion.
The amendment is out of order.
There are only two points I wish to deal with. One has been referred to by Deputy Figgis. Before I do so, I should like to remind the Postmaster-General that when I accepted the final words, "except such Departmental Minutes as, in the opinion of the Committee, are not necessary to be published," I did so acting on the suggestion of the Minister for Finance. He suggested these words, and I think the balance of opinion of the Dáil was in favour of their acceptance, for I think we all realise how essential it is that our public departments, if they are to work at all, should be kept outside the arena of politics, and not have their opinions drawn in and canvassed. On the point Deputy Figgis raised—the question of privilege—there is a good deal of misunderstanding. Personally, I do not think that what Deputy Figgis asks can be done. If a man gives evidence on a privileged occasion, he cannot be sued for it, and you cannot remove the privilege except by consent. You would have to ask every person who appeared before the Committee, and every member of the Committee, to remove the privilege. Only by general consent could it be done. If one person objected you would not be able to do it. Therefore I do not think that it is a practical proposition. I think the public outside have not entirely understood the pains that have been taken to include in this evidence when it is published a statement from everybody who may be affected, and I think that is because the public, and even the Press, are not perhaps so familiar with the Constitution as they might be.
Article 19 of the Constitution says—
"All official reports and publications of the Oireachtas or of either House thereof shall be privileged and utterances made in either House wherever published shall be privileged."
Under that Article I take it, and I hope the Attorney-General will correct me if I am wrong, if a newspaper publishes extracts from this evidence when printed and circulated, it will be liable to an action for libel by any person who is unfavourably commented on, although I think the Constitutional practice in other countries extends privilege to any Parliamentary publication even when re-produced in the Press. Leaving that out altogether, when the Blue Book or White Book which contains this evidence is privileged it is a publication of the Dáil. That Book, containing statements which may reflect on the character of individuals—from what I have heard it is almost bound to reflect on the character of individuals—will be on sale in every bookshop in the City of Dublin, and every person who wishes can have hawkers selling it in the streets. It would be grossly unfair that in a work of that character under the shelter of privilege statements should be made against individuals which they have had no opportunity of answering. This motion gives them the opportunity of submitting documents to the Committee, even at this late stage, and having them published, so that as well as the charges against an individual being published, there will be the answer of the individual. I venture to think that is only fair. There is one last point: I have seen it stated by a speaker outside the Dáil that in the course of the discussion my motion was torpedoed by Deputy Johnson. I take it that the shock of a torpedo is sharp and sudden, and that it comes on you unaware. Most certainly there was nothing of that in this case. Deputy Johnson told me before I proposed the motion the course that he proposed to recommend. He was absolutely frank and open with me, and I say that the course he wished to recommend was not inconsistent with my Motion but was supplementary to it. Had it commended itself to the Dáil it could have been combined with my motion. It did not so commend itself, but if it did there was nothing in the world unfair or underhand about Deputy Johnson's motion. It is unnecessary to say that, because we all know Deputy Johnson. We know he can be sometimes obstinate and sometimes unreasonable, but he is never unfair. As the statement has been made outside I think that a contradiction should go out. As a matter of fact, nobody has torpedoed my motion. It is sailing safely into port, possibly delayed on the voyage, but that is compensated for by the fact that it is sailing into port with, I think, the good wishes, or at any rate with the acceptance, of every side. I do not know if anything has been torpedoed, but most certainly my motion has not.