For the convenience of the Deputies, it would be well now to ascertain whether private business will be taken to-day?
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
I am willing to take it if Deputy Corish is ready. If not, I am prepared to agree to postpone it.
I understand from Deputy Corish that he has come to the conclusion, as the Minister for Local Government is not present, that it would be unfair to that Minister to discuss the matter in his absence; if there is any likelihood of the Minister being present next week he would prefer, in justice to the Minister, to defer it.
I know the Minister for Local Government is ill and is not in a position to be present to-day. He was prepared to come on Wednesday if it were necessary for him to be here. I think, in all fairness, it would be due to the Minister that he should be present when Deputy Corish's motion would be moved.
There will be another motion on Wednesday evening from the Postmaster-General, which in the ordinary way will appear as private business.
On a point of order, I wish to ask is the Postmaster-General a private member, or what is the position of an External Minister? I think it is rather unfair to private members if motions by Ministers are put down in private members' time, and I would like a ruling on the matter.
I take it that it is the Executive Council which controls the time of the Dáil, and that an External Minister, when he puts in a motion, would ordinarily have that motion discussed in private members' time, unless the President, who, by the Standing Orders, has a certain power over the Order Paper, decided to allow the motion to be discussed in Government time.
I desire to call attention to Standing Order 74, which deals with the business of private Teachtai. This Standing Order allows Wednesday evenings and Fridays after 2 o'clock to private Teachtai, and I think if you look at Standing Order 31 you will see that "questions, addressed to a Teáchta of the Dáil, not a Minister, must relate to some motion or other matter in connection with the Dáil for which the Teachta is responsible." If you take the reference in the Index at page 173 and Standing Order 31 together, which deals with questions addressed to a Teachta of the Dáil, who is not a Minister, you will see that an External Minister cannot claim the time of a private Teachta.
It is not fair to answer a question by asking another, but I was going to ask——
I desire to ask whether this motion has been put down in the name of the Postmaster-General or in the name of the member for Cork.
It was clearly put down in the name of the Postmaster-General, and there ought to be no question of relegating a question of that kind to the time of private members. It is obvious that, if it be not a Government matter, it is certainly a semi-Government matter dealing, at any rate, with a Government question which occupies a large place in the public mind at the moment, and it appears to me — I may be wrong — that this is simply another way of shelving the motion.
What does the Minister mean exactly? The motion is to come up next Wednesday evening. What does the Minister mean by the statement that if his motion is to come on in private members' time that it is but another method of shelving the motion? Whom does he accuse of shelving the motion?
Well, I should say if the Ceann Comhairle has been advised by the Executive ——
Order, order.
The Ceann Comhairle is never advised by the Executive Council, and if the Postmaster-General has not discovered that up to the present, he must be very ignorant indeed.
I agree with the decision of the Ceann Comhairle, but ——
Sit down. I want the Postmaster-General to state what he means by saying that this is for the purpose of shelving his motion. Who is shelving his motion? Is it the Ceann Comhairle?
I can only come to that conclusion.
Very good. Am I clear now that the Postmaster-General has come to the conclusion that the Ceann Comhairle is a party to shelving a particular motion?
I am satisfied that the action of the Ceann Comhairle in relegating this motion of mine to private members' time is equivalent to shelving the motion.
This is a very serious matter, a very serious matter, indeed.
I was waiting for the President, as Leader of the House, to intervene ——
I was going to intervene on one or two occasions during this discussion, to say that I have not had any representation from the Postmaster-General for the inclusion of any motion or business of his in Government time. I do not know that, on any occasion any External Minister has asked for time for dealing with any matter concerning his Department, that that application has been refused. In fact I do state positively that on no occasion has any External Minister asked for time for the consideration of a proposal in which the Government said: "We cannot afford Government time." The statement of the Postmaster-General on this point is, to my mind, an unfair statement to the Chair, and unfair to the Executive Council. The Postmaster-General was in a position to ask the Executive Council, or to ask me, for time for this motion. He has not done so. I take it then on that, that the Postmaster-General himself has shelved the question by not asking for time.
I quite appreciate the President's desire to make his position clear, but I think the occasion is one which is not met by that statement. The Postmaster-General is a Minister of the Dáil, and has quite defiantly charged you, Sir, with unfair action towards himself in carrying out your duties. I think he should be required to withdraw any such charge or imputation, and I think the business of the House should not proceed until that has been called for.
Well, if the Ceann Comhairle considers that I have in any way reflected on his impartiality in transacting the business of the House, I very readily withdraw and apologise, but at the same time I do not think that I have been fairly treated in regard to this motion of mine, and if it is necessary, that the approval of the Leader of the House is needed for the formal tabling of this motion in Government time, as distinct from private members' time, I now make that application.
This is the very first time that, from any quarter of this House or the last House, any imputation of the vaguest character, even of the vaguest character, has been made against the conduct of the business of the House by me. The Postmaster-General has withdrawn in a way which I would prefer not to characterise. He says that he withdraws any reflection on my impartiality, but persists in thinking that he has not been fairly treated.
Will I be permitted to explain——
He says he has withdrawn any imputation upon my impartiality, but that he has not been fairly treated in regard to this motion. Either the Postmaster-General is able to make himself clear or he is not, and he has not made himself clear to me, and before the business of the House proceeds the House will have to make up its mind as to whether any Deputy, Minister or otherwise, can stand up in the House and state that the Chair is unfair without any attention being called to it.
I want to explain again that formal notice was given of this motion here. The motion was handed in in the usual way, and for the first time to-day I learned that this motion has been relegated to private members' time. One would imagine at least that the Ceann Comhairle would acquaint the Head of the Department responsible, or rather the Minister responsible, for this motion that certain steps were essential to secure the ordinary time of the House. No such step has been taken, and I think I have also a grievance in this matter.
Would the Minister now keep to his grievance against me, so that it would not be confused with his grievance against any other parties?
I am speaking now with regard to my grievance against you. I have not expressed a grievance towards anyone else in this matter. I do think that the Ceann Comhairle ought to have acquainted me that steps should be taken to secure the approval of the Leader of the House for this motion. It is, perhaps, an unusual motion. I do not know that any other External Minister has moved such a motion in our time. At least, if so, it has not come to my notice.
I regret that I have to intervene again. The Ceann Comhairle respects and protects the liberty of every member of this House, and this House must be the guardian and the protector of the rights of the Ceann Comhairle, and this House must interpret, and ought to interpret, whether or not a matter which a member, be he Minister or otherwise, makes use of in this House, reflects or not upon the Ceann Comhairle. We ought not to put him in the position that he must, of himself, defend his office. His office is a high and an important office in the State.
I have not seen this motion of the Postmaster-General, and I have not been asked about it. The Ceann Comhairle, in dealing with the business of the House, deals with it impartially and impersonally, and if a member, even if he be a Minister, or a member of the Executive Council, comes to the Ceann Comhairle personally and says, "I want down this motion," the Ceann Comhairle treats him as an ordinary Teachta of the Dáil, and in this case the Postmaster-General has himself neglected his duty and his office as an External Minister in not applying to the ordinary channel. The ordinary channel is the Leader of the House, and if he objects to the Leader of the House he has got the Executive Council, and he can apply to the Executive Council and ask for time to deal with any matter which concerns his Department.
Now, there must be no burking of the issue in a matter of this kind. I do not know, and I have not heard from the Postmaster-General, that he has an objection to coming to the Executive Council to ask for such permission, but if he has, then I think he ought to explain that to the House and tell them that he declines to do it; but if he neglects to carry out the duties of his office and pay that respect to the office which he holds the fault is his own, and the complaint he has is against himself, and the grievance he is nursing is a grievance which is the outcome of not being able to appreciate his position as an External Minister. I regret very much to have to make a statement of that sort in this House about a Minister.
It would be extremely difficult for anyone to appreciate the position of an External Minister. No one seems to know where the External Minister stands, and the position is becoming more and more involved, but one thing seems to stand out clearly in regard to an External Minister and that is the emphasis placed on the fact that there are such things as External Ministers. That emphasis has never failed to repeat itself when occasion demands, and very often with more emphasis than is needed for the occasion. Do I take it, then, that in any business involving a motion on the part of an External Minister that it is necessary for that External Minister——
On a point of order——
If I may again intervene——
The point of order comes first.
I intimated that I believed it was the view of the House that when a member, Minister or not, flouted the authority of the Chair or charged the Chair with partiality and unfair action, that the business of the House should not be allowed to proceed until that charge had been withdrawn. We are not discussing the relative merits of External Ministers or members of the Executive Council, and in this matter we are all concerned with supporting the authority of the Ceann Comhairle, and I think that we ought not to allow any discussion on the merits of this matter till the Postmaster-General has expressed his readiness to acknowledge the authority of the Chair as the guardian of the liberties of all the members of the House.
I think I afforded the Minister an opportunity on two or three occasions, without putting it directly to him, that any imputation or any reflection on the Ceann Comhairle must be unreservedly withdrawn. If that request be refused, it will, of course, be my business to move another motion. I hope that the Minister will see his way to unreservedly withdraw any imputation of partiality on the part of the Ceann Comhairle.
I thought I had already withdrawn any reflection, which I may have made, on the Ceann Comhairle sufficiently. If my words have not conveyed that withdrawal to the satisfaction of the Ceann Comhairle, I am prepared to add any others. I may say this much for the Ceann Comhairle, and I have repeatedly said it, that he is strictly fair, he has been always fair; his actions in this House have been a great contrast, a favourable contrast, with any we have seen in the case of his predecessors, and I should be very sorry ——
Is the Minister withdrawing his statement about me by accusing my predecessors of partiality? This is an extraordinary situation. I feel, for the first time since I came into this Chair, helpless. The Postmaster-General states it is a matter for me; it is not a matter for me; it is a matter for the House to be satisfied.
I ——
Order; the Minister must sit down. The Minister has been long enough in the House to have learned something about the Standing Orders. This is not a question of satisfying me; it is a question of satisfying the Dáil, and upon that basis I would like to leave it. It is nothing short of outrageous that the Postmaster-General should begin — I cannot call it an apology, and I cannot call it a withdrawal — but that he should begin a statement about me with an accusation against my predecessors. I could not allow that under any circumstances.
I wish then, briefly, to withdraw any imputation that I have made against you, Sir, and I hope that is satisfactory.
I beg to move the adjournment of the House until 2 o'clock.
I beg to second.
Question put and agreed to.
The Dáil rose at 12.55 p.m. and resumed at 2.10 p.m.
A Chinn Comhairle, I wish to assure you and the Dáil that I unreservedly withdraw any reflections that I have made on you. I acknowledge that I should not have made any such statement. I wish also to express my regret to the House for the incident. I felt keenly on the matter which I have raised, and I readily admit that I should not have taken the course that I did. I regret, Sir, any pain I have caused you personally, and I assure you that it was quite unintentional.
I think that disposes of the matter completely.
In reference to the matter that was raised by Deputy Cooper, it is a matter of some little importance. I will undertake to provide for the motion in Government time, so that Deputies will not be restricted by reason of that.
What I really want to safeguard private members from is such a thing as the Minister for Agriculture bringing in another Land Bill in private members' time.
I think it would be scarcely fair to ask me to give an undertaking of that sort in general terms, but I think it will be admitted by all sections of the Dáil that we have afforded private members opportunities for raising matters, and have not restricted them. If an occasion should occur in which there would be restrictions of that sort, then I think Deputies would have a right to raise the matter.
The way in which I have been looking at the matter is, that Ministerial business is business which comes properly from a Ministerial Department, and the Standing Orders prescribe that the President shall have power to place Ministerial business in any order that he wishes upon the Order Paper. In that way, as a matter of fact, every extern Minister, and any Minister, is construed as being a private member for certain purposes. He is sometimes at an advantage, because he can place a matter upon the Order Paper independently of the desires of the President of the Executive Council for the time being, and I have been construing the Standing Orders in that way. I do not think, at the same time, we would allow the Minister for Agriculture to occupy private members' time with a Land Bill. But if the Minister for Agriculture wanted to raise a matter, concerning his own constituency, for example, he should certainly be allowed the privileges of a private member to raise that matter, and he would in that way have these privileges and would actually be independent of the President of the Executive Council. He would have the privileges of a private member, and would not need to go to the President and ask him for time or ask him to put a motion on the Paper at a particular time of the day.
That only applies to External Ministers.
I am not sure whether, if the Minister for External Affairs desired to raise a matter regarding the County Dublin, which would not properly concern external affairs, that he should not have the rights of a private member, but that case has not arisen. It might be that Deputy Cooper and the Minister for External Affairs would be at one in raising some matter and wanting an afternoon to do that, which would require a reply from the Minister for Home Affairs.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
Does that not rather cut across the theory of the collective responsibility of the Executive Council that the Minister for External Affairs should raise a question with one of colleagues or with the Executive Council?
I have not gone into it in detail. It might raise a question with the Minister for Local Government, for example, and the Minister for Home Affairs might be enabled to be an interested spectator of the struggle.