I move:—
That a sum not exceeding £77,130 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the salaries and expenses of the Oireachtas.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. VOTE 2—OIREACHTAS.
In regard to this, I take it that the Estimate that is before us does not include any expenditure incurred in the acquisition of these premises, because this Estimate was drawn out at an earlier time. Without going into that question at all fully now, perhaps this might be a suitable opportunity, seeing that the Dáil will presumably be rising some time at the end of this particular sitting, to make a statement as to any matters that arise in that connection with regard to the acquisition of these premises, when the acquisition is likely to take place, and what expenses are likely to be incurred in that connection.
We will now take points arising out of the Estimate, and we can take that question afterwards.
On the general Estimate, particularly Sub-head A (Salaries and Allowances of Teachtaí) and perhaps, inferentially Sub-head E (Salaries, Wages and Allowances of Officers and Staff of the Oireachtas), I, some weeks ago, was indicted, to use the word the Minister has just been dealing with, and by inference, lectured, of which I have been duly conscious since, by a member of the Party opposite, in reference to doing the nation's work. It seems to me quite necessary that on this Vote we should try to find out whether we have, as a matter of fact, been doing our duty as members of the Oireachtas and doing the nation's work. The Deputy who, following a speech of mine, notified the Dáil that we were here to do the nation's work, and that we were going to do it, happens to have been absent from the date of his entry to the 30th June from twenty-three per cent. of the divisions that took place. Seventy-five divisions took place from which that particular Deputy was absent. That may be justified by the Deputy; he may have been doing more important work than the nation's work.
All that, of course, does not include the very grave risk that he ran a week ago in allowing the Government party to be defeated when he was also absent. It is quite possible, of course, that a Deputy might be somewhat negligent in regard to divisions, but he might have taken an active part in the actual work of legislation, or by criticism of the administration. In this case the Deputy who took me to task cannot plead that as his excuse. I find that he has taken part in four separate discussions. He uttered twenty-five words on supplementary estimates in respect of dismissed and resigned R.I.C. men. On the Army situation debate, he spoke a column and fifteen lines as reported, and on the Liquor Bill, he uttered the two words: "Lucky man." There were two short contributions from him to the debate on the Town Tenants Bill. That is the contribution to the work of the Dáil by a Deputy who said to me, or to the Dáil following me, that we were here to do the nation's work. It is well, I think, quite apart from the personal application, that we should have some realisation of what we are here for, and I am going to ask the Dáil and all parties, including my own, whether they are justified in voting this money. Before answering the question I appeal to them to ask themselves what is their justification of being here? I am asking Deputies before they vote this money to answer that question for themselves. I take it that we desire that Parliamentary Government should prevail, and if we do, we have a right to act as though we intended that Parliamentary Government ought to prevail and that it is worthy of prevailing. I take it we are here to legislate and to do our work as legislators, not simply to record "yea" or "nay" according to what somebody else says. At least a reasonable proportion of the Deputies ought to be closely interested in a reasonable proportion of the legislative measures that come before the Dáil.
I would say that if there is such a reasonable examination by a reasonable proportion of Deputies of the measures that come before us, we would have had a much less plentiful output of legislation and probably a much more satisfactory and much less wasteful legislation for the future. I imagine that as a consequence of the spate of Acts that have gone through the Dáil this year, the legal profession will be well benefited in the coming years. I believe there has not been, on the part of members of the Dáil, the amount of care, attention and critical examination of legislative proposals that there ought to have been if we were justifying our membership of the Dáil. The Dáil has not commanded the respect that legislative Houses should command in this or in any other country. One of the reasons for that is I believe that the work of legislation has been left to too few members, that is the work of criticism has been left to too few. I know that there is an under current running through many members of the Dáil that I personally waste too much time. I know that quite well but I say this: that if the Dáil is going to justify itself as a legislative institution there ought to be twenty, thirty or forty Deputies out of the 106 who would take a critical and active interest in the work of legislation and administration and that it should not be left to a few people on the front Benches to do all the active criticism on matters that come before the Dáil. I do not think it is sufficient for members to come and pass this Vote and conceive that their main function is the visiting of Departments to look after the interests of their constituents. That is a quite justifiable proceeding, but it is not the work of a legislature. It is only incidental to membership of the Dáil. Again I say that the work of criticism, the function of criticism of the Executive, is a part and very important, if not the most important part of the work of the legislature. I complain, as I say of the fact that the Dáil has not commanded the respect of the country that it ought to have commanded. I say that the newspapers have contributed largely to that general fact. Apparently the Dáil as a whole has not impressed the newspapers with the necessity of appointing people who will give an intelligent criticism or an intelligent summary of the work that is done in the Dáil.
We have a Dáil that is careless of its duties, and we have a Press, as between the Dáil and the country, that is so contemptuous and careless of the work of the Dáil that it in accurately and grotesquely reports the work done in the Dáil. Every member who speaks in the Dáil has that experience. It is universal. I say if we are going to justify the passing of Votes of this kind we have got to justify the value of the Dáil by the work in the Dáil. It is not simply enough to be here to support, or oppose, an amendment, or to back up or support a Government merely for the sake of backing-up, opposing, and answering Whips, and I say we are not justified in carrying on the work of this legislative assembly unless we can show that there is a much more active and intelligent interest in its work than there has been in the last two sessions.
Lest the lecture we have listened to from the Deputy who has just spoken might be misconstrued, I should say, that sometimes I think silence is golden. The Deputy has complained that many Deputies have not spoken, but I think on many occasions that contributed to good legislation instead of to that legislation to which the Deputy has referred as going to bring a crop of fees to the lawyers. I do not know whether the Deputy is serious in this matter or not. Probably he would like to get people talking more in different parts of the House, but I do not think that it is talk that always accomplishes most. I think that people sometimes can do as much by not talking too loudly as by making long and drawn-out speeches. The Press came in for the lash, but I must admit that the Press must get it hard, indeed, to give an exact reproduction of what is in the minds of Deputies. I know it is impossible not to make a mistake. The Press makes mistakes occasionally, but they are only human like everybody else. Perhaps if everybody talked as often as the Deputy seems to think they should, we would also have complaints. Our constituents occasionally like to hear us talking, but I have heard constituents down the country asking, after serious debates were threshed out here, what we were talking about. They say, "Why do you not get on with the work?" I ask Deputies, "Are we to go back to the old days again?"
It would be a good job if we did.
Sinn Feiners used to say formerly that this was a land of resolutions, and that no work was done. I think we have quite enough talk in this House. We have four or five parties here, and if they make up their minds that certain things are right and necessary, I think two or three spokesmen are sufficient.
Unless it is a Licensing Bill.
I do not want to curb anyone's enthusiasm for talking. Sometimes I like to hear an enlightening discussion, but the discussions here are usually very dull. I think for the past session that the amount of talk that has gone on in proportion to the number of hours we have been sitting would compare very favourably with any other Assembly.
I want to raise a point I mentioned before in regard to the expenses of the acquisition of this House, and when we are likely to get into it more or less permanently. I notice a statement in the papers this morning that it was not likely that the Oireachtas would be housed here before Christmas, because it could not be vacated by the Royal Dublin Society before then. I think this Vote gives an opportunity for a general statement being made with regard to the acquisition of Leinster House for the purpose of housing the Oireachtas, with regard to its expense, and when it can be brought about. I would invite the President to make such a statement.
In reply to Deputy Figgis, I may say that I am the person who made that statement at a Committee meeting. I said that I did not believe that this House would be available before Christmas. That was only a personal opinion, as I consulted nobody about it. The question was asked at the Committee meeting and I answered it. It was my own interpretation as to the time it will take the Royal Dublin Society to be housed.
I did not know that Deputy Hughes was responsible for the statement.
I wanted to clear the Deputy's mind.
May I raise the question of a Library? We are dealing with the salaries of the Librarian and Assistant Librarian. They have very few books. Could not something more be done to get a useful library? I think we should get some volumes of Erskine May, who is the chief authority on constitutional questions and parliamentary procedure. Another thing we ought to have is the proceedings of the Parliaments of the other Dominions. We ought to know what is going on in the Canadian Parliament, particularly on the subject of being bound by treaties, especially those signed by Great Britain. The South African Parliament is going to be extremely interesting in the near future. We have got the proceedings of the Parliament at Westminster, and the proceedings of the Northern Parliament. I think we could obtain these other proceedings without much difficulty on a basis of exchange which would probably cost nothing. These proceedings would be very valuable to Deputies and would, perhaps, help to widen our horizon.
I would like to ask the President if he has been successful in making arrangements with railway companies with regard to the passes which I think he promised last year for Deputies travelling to and from their constituencies. The matter was raised last year and the President, I think, promised to look into it. Members will admit that the present system is most unsatisfactory.
I should like to stress the point about the library, where Deputies who are anxious to take part in the debates should get books of reference. There is also another point in connection with newspapers and periodicals. I know that we get some of the provincial papers. We get the Cork papers. I quite realise that Ireland is a suburb of Cork, but I should like that we should get some say, of the Waterford or Limerick papers, and I suggest that they are just as interesting as some of the Cork papers.
As we are on the subject of the occupation of Leinster House, for more or less a definite period, I think some improvement should be made in the seating accommodation for the Deputies. These seats are most uncomfortable, especially for those afflicted with long legs. A desk in front in which to put papers is rather a serious want. Often when a Deputy gets up to speak and wishes to refer to his papers he finds that they have flown away from him. Some of us too, are not very acute at hearing, and I think if we had some system of a sound amplifier it would be a great improvement. It would be a great advantage to everybody over here. It is extremely difficult to hear Deputies from the opposite benches speaking from the top. I have no doubt that they feel the same difficulty.
Deputy Johnson referred to a statement made here some time recently about looking after the nation's work. I think the Deputy who made that statement was satisfied after his lecture that things were improving and that his attendance was not as necessary as before the lecture. I think he was away looking after the nation's work and showing how important he was. On the whole his contribution on that occasion was necessary and useful and has probably been beneficial. With regard to what Deputy Morrissey said about railway travelling, there is a difficulty in the case because only one particular company of all the companies offered the facilities we requested. While we are willing at all times to stretch a point with regard to this matter, I think a year's, or possibly two years', experience of the existing method would be advisable to enable us to form some idea of the principles and the necessity of the case, and having had that information it is more than possible that we may find the new unified company in a more favourable state of mind with regard to meeting the case. I think the proposal was that a season ticket should be given so that the necessity of applying regularly at the office of the Clerk would be done away with. In some cases it was found that it would be a saving but in the majority of cases there would be a loss, and the Comptroller and Auditor-General would be entitled to object in the circumstances. Having had the advantage of one whole session of work it is more than possible that we would be in a better position to deal with the railway company on that point. I understand that there are plans at present under consideration of the House Committee for the reorganisation of the whole place here. That particular item, I would like to remind Deputy Figgis, comes under the head of Public Works and Buildings and will be found to be the last item on page 36. I do not know whether the Deputy was doing the nation's work somewhere else when that item was being discussed. There is a sum of £20,000 entered for that. To the same extent the lack of accommodation here prevented us from getting a library. There is a useful library at the Castle. An Ceann Comhairle sometimes views with horror the introduction of such a large number of books as there are, and the provision of other books and so on. I believe that with the acquisition of the whole of Leinster House it will be possible to fix up a library which will contain books and so on. There is a sum of £600 for books and periodicals. There is not and could not be an attendance book for members of the Dáil and Seanad but from my experience of public bodies, and I have had a long experience with probably the premier body in Ireland, the attendance in the Dáil more than favourably compares with the attendance of any public institution I have noticed in this country. It is perfectly natural that the Press should be particularly critical.
They are not critical enough. It is their unintelligent criticism to which I object.
We will have to wait for that. I notice that one particular journal expresses an opinion sometimes three or four weeks after the matter has been introduced here. It occasionally adopts the attitude of the Pharisee and the other person who wore a white sheet in the Gospel. I observe that some time ago they lectured me on some matters. It did not affect me in any way. It is a source of amusement to think that the "Independent" could form any public opinion in this country. The "Independent" was never national and it cannot put on the robe of the ascendancy order in this country. I think it has aimed at doing both and succeeded in doing neither. As far as the respect for the Dáil is concerned, from every source that I can get information, I find that the people of the country are very well satisfied with it. Last year when going through the country, I found that people who did not agree with, perhaps, the political opinions of any section of the House were certainly impressed with the consideration that problems have got here, with the size of the problems and their number, the justice with which those matters were discussed. It is possible that we have not got to the heights of oratory which were associated with the last Parliament of this country, but we are, perhaps, nothing the worse of that and what we have is quite sufficient.
What about my friend here?
I think there are very few Parliaments faced with such problems as we have and very few Parliaments that sat as long and had to do as much work as we have done. Those people who tell us that we have made mistakes never tell us how many mistakes they made themselves, and if any person writes down their virtues perhaps a blank page will appear.
As to the question of a library, the real difficulty about a library is that you require a room and an official always in the room to check the issue of books and to give information to Deputies. As soon as we get Leinster House we shall certainly get a room for that purpose. We do get books which would be very suitable for the building up of a Parliamentary library, and we are endeavouring to accumulate books and papers which would be suitable for such a library. We have the debates of the Canadian Parliament, and we hope to have those of the South African Parliament and of other such Parliaments. Deputy Hogan desires to have newspapers of a certain type. The whole question of newspapers is controlled by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which recently revised the list, and any Deputy who desires any change should consult a member of that Committee. Deputy Wolfe will be glad to know—and I think Deputy Hughes could inform him—that there was a meeting of the joint House Committee yesterday, at which the Clerk of the Dáil presented plans drawn up by the Office of Public Works dealing with alterations in the Dáil Chamber. The plans affected the levelling down of the floor of the Chamber to a more moderate slope and new seating accommodation with supports for papers, and more room perhaps for the Deputies' legs. An official of the Board of Works undertook to consult with the officials of his Department as to the best method of meeting these views. It has been decided to go ahead with the construction of seats for the Chamber. They will be constructed by the Office of Public Works in consultation with the officers of the Dáil and members of the Committee, in accordance with what one would call the most modern improvements.
Is anything being done to make the sound more distinct?
We have not considered that, because that was not raised at any Committee meeting. For myself, I hear Deputies quite satisfactorily, but the hearing is not satisfactory in some parts of the Chamber; and when the whole matter of recontructing the Chamber is being gone into, we can get the officials of the Board of Works to go into that, too. Deputies will realise that, in the case of the Chamber here, it is impossible for us to make drastic alterations, because this place does not belong to us. It really means that the officers of the Public Works Office have not really, got a free hand in dealing with the place, because it is not fully and completely State property in the ordinary sense. But as soon as Leinster House is taken over under the recent decision, we will have carte blanche to make such arrangements as are suitable for Deputies.
Vote put and agreed to.