Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Feb 1925

Vol. 10 No. 4

WRITS FOR VACANT CONSTITUENCIES.

Mr. SEAMUS DOLAN

I ask leave to move together the seven motions which appear on the Order Paper in my name. They are as follows:—

Go n-ordóidh an Ceann Comhairle do Chléireach na Dála a rit a chur amach chun ball do thogha chun an fholúntais a thárla imease ballra na Dála so de bharr Seán P. Mac Giobúin do thabhairt suas a shuíocháin mar bhall do Dháil-cheanntar Cheatharlach-Chill Choinnigh.	That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his writ for the election of a member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the resignation by Deputy John Francis Gibbons of his seat as a member for the Constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny.
Go n-ordóidh an Ceann Comhairle do Chléireach na Dála a rit a chur amach chun ball do thogha chun anfholúntais a thárla imease ballra na Dála so de bharr Seán mac Giolla 'n Riogh do thabhairt suas a shuíocháin mar bhall do Dháil-cheanntar an Chabháin.	That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his writ for the election of a member to fillthe vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the resignation by Deputy Seán Milroy of his seat as a member for the Constituency of Cavan.
Go n-ordóidh an Ceann Comhairle do Chléireach ná Dála a rit a chur amach chun baill do thogha chun na bhfolúntas a thárla imease ballra na Dála so de bharr Seán Mac Garaidh agus Próinsias O Cathail do thabhairt suas a suíochán mar bhaill do Dháil-cheanntar Bhuirge Bhaile Atha Cliath Thuaidh.	That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his writ for the election of members to fill the vacancies which have occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the resignation by Deputies Seán McGarry and Francis Cahill of their seats as members for the Borough Constituency of Dublin North.
Go n-ordóidh an Ceann Comhairle do Chléireach na Dála a rit a chur amach chun ball do thogha chun an fholúntais a thárla imease ballra na Dála so de bharr Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh do thabhairt suas a shuíocháin mar bhall do Dháil-cheanntar Bhuirge Bhaile Atha Cliath Theas.	That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his writ for the election of a member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the resignation by Deputy Daniel McCarthy of his seat as a member for the Borough Constituency of Dublin South.
Go n-ordóidh an Ceann Comhairle do Chléireach na Dála a rit a chur amach chun baill do thogha chun an fholúntais a thárla imease ballra na Dála so de bharr Seosamh Mag Craith do thabhairt suas a shuíocháin mar bhall do Dháil-cheanntar Mhuigheo Thuaidh.	That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his writ for the election of a member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the resignation by Deputy Joseph McGrath of his seat as a member for the Constituency of North Mayo.
Go n-ordóidh an Ceann Comhairle do Chléireach na Dála a rit a chur amach chun baill do thogha chun an bhfolúntas a thárla imease ballra na Dála so de bharr Alasdair Mac Cába agus Tomás Mac Artúir do thabhairt suas a suíochán mar bhaill do Dháilcheanntar Liathdroma-Shligigh.	That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his writ for the election of members to fill the vacancies which have occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the resignation by Deputies Alexander MacCabe and Thomas Carter of their seats as members for the Constituency of Leitrim-Sligo.
Go n-ordóidh an Ceann Comhairle do Chléireach na Dála a rit a chur amach chun ball do thogha chun an fholúntais a thárla imease ballra na Dála so de bharr Einrí S. Mag Fhionnlaoich do thabhairt suas a shuíocháin mar bhall do Dháil-cheanntar Roscomáin.	That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his writ for the election of a member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the resignation by Deputy Henry Joseph Finlay of his seat as a member for the Constituency of Roscommon.

Mr. O'CONNOR

I beg to second the motions.

Mr. ESMONDE

With reference to these motions, I must appeal to you, A Chinn Comhairle, as guardian and protector of the rights of private members, because I feel that these motions raise a very delicate question and complicated points not, perhaps, of Constitutional procedure but of Parliamentary morality. On the 20th February of last year the President made a statement here dealing with a motion for the issue of a writ. On that occasion, I think Deputy Johnson moved an amendment to the motion for issue of a writ. The President claimed for the party to which the deceased or resigned Member belonged, the right to move at their convenience for a new writ. The President stated then that the matter would have to be settled once and for all, and that the practice in another place was to reserve to the Party to which the deceased or resigned member belonged the right of moving for the writ. He said that that right, which existed in another place, should be even stronger here in the particular circumstances of the country. Since that time this principle, which was then voted upon and accepted by practically two to one of the Members voting in the Dáil, has not only been acted upon but it has been, in the opinion of many members, strained, if not abused. The question arises as to why Deputy Dolan should move for these writs on this occasion. Is it claimed that the Members who resigned were Members of his Party?

MINISTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE (Mr. McGILLIGAN)

They were.

Mr. ESMONDE

Does the Minister deny they were members at the time of their resignation?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes.

Mr. ESMONDE

The Minister for Justice and the Minister for Finance have both repeatedly stated that these Members belonged to a separate and distinct Party. Consequently, they could not possibly belong to the Party to which Deputy Dolan belongs. It may be suggested, as has been suggested in the Press, that Deputy Dolan takes his stand on the point that these Deputies were elected as members of the Party to which he belongs, and that it does not matter what Party they belonged to at the time of their resignation. That is a new principle. I do not think it is a sound principle. Let us suppose, say, that Deputy Beamish were to die, which God forbid. I have no doubt that Deputy Dolan would consider himself entitled to move for the writ. Yet Deputy Beamish was not elected as a Member of that Party. He subsequently changed his Party. Some Ministers may deny, for instance—and I am sure several Ministers deny—that I am a Member of their Party. Yet, when I die they will enthusiastically claim me as a Member of their Party and move for the writ, on the principle that dead men tell no tales or de mortuis nil nisi bonum. At any rate, I must protest against the moving of these writs seeing that you, sir, are the protector of National or other groups. I must protest against what I consider to be the poaching proclivities of Deputy Dolan, though I do not say that I will force a Division.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to prevent the President claiming rights in this matter which the Dáil might be compened to dispute. I maintain—and I put in this claim in the beginning— that it is the right of any Deputy to move for the issue of any Writ where there is a vacancy of any kind, but it is the right also of the majority of the Dáil to refuse that motion.

I want to raise another question. That is, as to whether any authority from the Ministry or any Department of the Ministry has been given, or will be given, to suggestions that public works, such as the Shannon scheme, drainage schemes, or other such works, will not be carried on unless the Government get a majority in these bye-elections; whether the Publicity Department of the Department of External Affairs has anything to say to the newspapers in respect of those elections and in respect of the Government programme and policy, touching these elections; or whether the Government, as a Government, will recognise that they are not a party while a Government—that they will refrain from using the privileges of the Ministry for pushing the fortunes of a political party.

The PRESIDENT

I suppose I had better deal, first, with what has been stated by Deputy Esmonde. If Deputy Esmonde will look up what I said in February he will see, if my recollection serves me correctly, that I went deeper into the matter than simply to say that the vacancy which then occurred was a vacancy which belonged to one particular political party. I believe I went further than that, although I have not been able to find much agreement amongst my own friends of the political party to which I belong, nor, I think, can I claim Deputy Johnson as a supporter of the principle. I think I dealt with the merits of proportional representation, with the fact that the person who had been elected was elected by a system of proportional representation, which gives various parties and orders in the community representation. To my mind, although I may not have succeeded yet in making converts to my way of thinking, there is no real meaning of proportional representation other than the voucher which is got from the electorate at the time of the general election. The Deputy instanced one particular member of one political party here. I could instance others. The members of the Independent Party, if they resigned, might not be replaced by persons who would voice the opinion of the order who sent the Independent members here.

Mr. DAVIN

Order!

The PRESIDENT

Order, or section, or unit—anything you may like to mention.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Or the disorder.

The PRESIDENT

As a rule, the party to which the Deputy belongs is not a disorderly one. It is, perhaps, a misfortune for one political party that they should be the only party to suffer through the death or resignation of persons who were elected at the General Election to support the policy that has been propounded by the Cumann-na-Gaedheal. That is unfortunate in this connection, that it falls upon that Party entirely to fight all the elections. If it had occurred on the opposite side—if in my own constituency the Labour member resigned, is it likely that the last person on the list elected on the proportional representation system, where there were five seats, or a person espousing the same cause—granted the same volume of opinion—would be elected at an election for a single member? No, it is not. Deputies know that. The best possible illustration that could be given of proportional representation is by colours. White, I suppose, would represent the real minority amongst the colours. If white retires, it is not so easy to get that particular shade of colour again. Deputy Johnson did not agree with me some time ago, but I think if a member of his party resigned that he would probably say there was a good deal in what I said at the time. To that extent, I think, the case of Deputy Esmonde is met. The Writs are being moved for by the Party that secured the election of the retired members at the General Election. I do not think it was because the Deputy might not, perhaps, be able to find a seconder. I am sure it was not on that ground—to relieve him of a difficulty in that direction.

As regards the other question raised by Deputy Johnson. I was not aware until the elections came along that it was necessary to state a great many of the things that have appeared or that have been published since: that a great many good works have been accomplished, that there are a number of still greater works, but that the real results could only be achieved if the electorate were fully aware of the great works that have been done, and were conscious of the possibility of much greater works to come.

Mr. JOHNSON

Are we to take it that if the Ministry do not get a majority in the coming elections they are going to abandon all these works?

The PRESIDENT

No, but, as the Deputy well knows, they will be much more difficult of accomplishment if that should happen.

Motions put and agreed to; writs ordered to be issued accordingly.