I move:—
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Go gceaduíonn Dáil Eireann go nglactar, ar son Shaorstáit Eireann, leis na molta i dtaobh “Na bPrinsiobal nGenerálta chun modhna cigireachta do chó-ghléasa chun a chur in áirithe go bhfeidhmeofar na dlite agus na rialacháin i gcóir cosaint an Lucht Oibre,'' molta le n-ar ghlac Códháil Idirnáisiúnta an Oibreachais an 29adh Deire Fomhair, 1923, ag á gCúigiú Siosón a comóradh i nGeneva 22adh-29adh Deire Fomhair, 1923, agus 'na bhfuil a théarmaí leagtha amach sa sceideal a ghabhann leis seo. |
That Dáil Eireann approves of the adoption in respect of Saorstát Eireann of the recommendations concerning “The General Principles for the organisation of systems of inspection to secure the enforcement of the laws and regulations for the protection of the Workers” adopted on the 29th October, 1923, by the International Labour Conference at its Fifth Session held at Geneva 22nd-29th October, 1923, the terms of which are set out in the schedule hereto. |
I must apologise for bringing this resolution on at this late date. The regulation of the International Labour Conference with regard to recommendations is that they ought to be brought before the competent authority within a twelve-month period of the closing date of the Session at Geneva, or in exceptional cases an eighteen-month period. This is the last day of the eighteen-month period for bringing the recommendations before the competent authority, that is the Oireachtas. It is not simple neglect that has caused this to be delayed. In order to show that we are moving on the lines of the general principles with regard to factory inspection, it is necessary that certain appointments should be made or determined on before I came before the House with this recommendation. Deputies may have noticed that in to-day's papers there appears an advertisement with reference to industrial inspectors. One is to be a woman, and that is in accordance with paragraph three of "the organisation of inspection" in this recommendation. It was not possible to have steps taken even with regard to the advertising of these appointments until quite recently. This resolution was adopted and agreed to be forwarded for the acceptance of the Oireachtas by the Executive Council some time in March. The delay since has been due to the fact of not noticing the critical date of the 29th of this month, and having regard to the bringing forward of certain proposals regarding conventions, which appear on the Order Paper to-day, I thought it better to bring the two together. That is why we come at this late hour to discuss these regulations.
Recommendations, as distinct from conventions, are supposed to be general affirmations of principles, whereas the conventions are set out in a form which really is the basis of legislation. With regard to this recommendation the principles affirmed in it are definitely looked to in the carrying out of any inspection that we do under the Factories and Workshops Acts, and consequently the adoption of this recommendation, or the principles which it affirms, will entail no new legislation on our part. I may say, however, that I do not pretend that the administration of the Acts is quite in accordance with the recommendations here laid down. But the recommendations are drafted in rather a wide way so as to embrace the conditions of all countries, leaving each country to pick the exact form in which the recommendation will be put in force to suit its own particular needs, so that we are not exactly bound to be completely in line with everything that is stated in this recommendation. I do, however, admit that the administration of the Factories and Workshops Acts will have to be improved if their administration is to be brought within the scope and the principle of this recommendation. The spirit of the recommendation is a little broader and somewhat more spacious than that in which our Acts have up to this been administered, but that has been due in the main to administrative difficulties which we are surmounting, surmounting slowly, but at any rate surmounting.
I might point out one or two of these things. On the second page of this recommendation the paragraph headed "I.—Sphere of Inspection," it is stated "That in so far as it may be considered possible and desirable, additional duties may be assigned, provided——." The provisions that follow speak of "not interfering with the inspectors' principal duties." From the advertisement published to-day it will be seen that we apply for what are called "industrial inspectors," and the heading is "under the Factory and Workshop Acts and the Trade Boards Acts." It is our intention to have them industrial inspectors and not merely factory inspectors. We do not think that we are contravening the spirit of this particular statement, that additional duties may be put on the inspectors, provided that they do not in any way interfere with the inspectors' principal duties. We do not think that the duties are in any way contrary: we think that it is not a matter of additions to their duties; it is only a matter of bulking the duties, and that may be met by increasing the number of inspectors, if necessary. But there is nothing different from the type of work which would make the addition of these duties contravene what is stated in Section I. In Section II. the nature of the functions and powers are set out under paragraph 5, which states that inspectors should be empowered to bring breaches of the laws which they ascertain directly before the competent judicial authorities. Our representative at this gathering at Geneva voted for this clause, making what was called a reservation, but what was in reality an explanation, showing that there was really no reservation about it. The reason for the incorporation of that clause appears to have been this, that in certain countries, certainly in France, there are a kind of administrative officers who are more political personages than the type we know here, and it was thought that if they were to be put into interposition to those officials, who are political officials, between the inspector and the actual bringing of the cases before the court political influence might be brought to bear and prosecutions might be stopped. Our representative, without adverting to this, said that he rather had to reserve the word "directly," because, he pointed out, the method adopted here was that when breaches were discovered the inspector initiated the prosecution but the chief State solicitor carried it out. But when he explained the relations existing between the inspector and the chief State solicitor, and the chief State solicitor in relation to heads of departments, etc., pretty general agreement was expressed that although not in line with the wording of this recommendation, we were actually in line with the spirit of it.
Under the heading of "B. Safety," sub-paragraph (d) states "that inspectors should endeavour to promote the improvement and perfecting of measures of health and safety, by the systematic study of technical methods for the internal equipment of undertakings," and so on. I cannot pretend at the moment, with the limited staff that we have for inspection work, that they have any opportunity for the systematic study of technical methods for internal equipment, and all I say is that if we adopt this we adopt it as something to which we may aim, rather than having any hope of immediately attaining it.
On Page 4, Paragraph 11, it is stated that, "It is essential that experts having competent medical, engineering, electrical or other scientific training and experience should be employed by the State for dealing with such problems." There has been, in practice, a distinction as to the type of inspector appointed for these purposes. In some cases they are appointed on a functional basis, that is to say, you have one inspector who examines questions dealing with a particular trade and industry, and he attends to matters, such as sanitation and ventilation, in connection with that trade. In other cases you have a division; you have medical inspectors who inquire into such things as sanitation and ventilation in all factories, and you have engineering inspectors who inquire into matters of machinery, and other matters like that, in all factories. This is one of the points which is simply put in so as to cover pretty well all the conditions operating all over the world.
The actual reaction in the Saorstát towards this is on somewhat different lines from the principle that I have explained. We have inspectors, and we obtain the aid of experts of the type mentioned who are associated with other Departments in matters which seem to call for expert inquiry and expert report. So that we do employ them for dealing with such problems, but they are not employed in the position of inspectors. They are rather attached to different Departments as experts in certain lines, and they are called upon when the necessity arises.
Paragraph 12 says:—
That in conformity with the principle contained in Article 427 of the Treaty of Peace, the inspectorate should include women as well as men inspectors; that, while it is evident that with regard to certain matters and certain classes of work inspection can be more suitably carried out by men as in the case of other matters and other classes of work inspection can be more suitably carried out by women, the women inspectors should in general have the same powers and duties and exercise the same authority as the men inspectors, subject to their having had the necessary training and experience, and should have equal opportunity of promotion to the higher ranks.
It may be noticed that in the advertisement in to-day's papers a lower salary is set out for women inspectors than for men inspectors. But there is nothing that contravenes Paragraph 12 in that, because there will be the same powers and duties, and I think the same authority, and there will be equal opportunity for promotion to the higher ranks. It may, however, be argued that if there were the same powers and duties and the same authority, why should there not be the same emoluments? That comes back to the difficulty of which the Minister for Finance has spoken twice, once in connection with the secondary school teachers, and again in some other connection. The end towards which we are striving with regard to discrimination is, that the discrimination will be on the basis of dependency. That is, the division will be between married and unmarried. But until we arrive at that basis of discrimination I have had to proceed, if I want to get my inspectorate staff together at all, on what now operates, and that is, I think unfortunately, a position in which women are paid somewhat lower than men, even although they do the same work and have equal duties.
Paragraph B, speaks of the qualification of inspectors, and says:—
"It is essential that the inspectors should in general possess a high standard of technical training and experience, should be persons of good general education, and by their character and abilities be capable of acquiring the confidence of all parties."
And then again it goes on, and says:—
"That the inspectorate should be on a permanent basis and should be independent of changes of Government; that the inspectors should be given such a status and standard of remuneration as to secure their freedom from any improper external influences, and that they should be prohibited from having any interest in any establishment which is placed under their inspection."
And, finally:—
"That inspectors on appointment should undergo a period of probation for the purpose of testing their qualifications."
Some of these things we are definitely and actually in line with. There is a probationary period, and we look forward to having people who possess a high standard of training and experience. There may be some query as to whether the inspectors are being given such a "status and standard of remuneration as to secure their freedom from any improper and external influences." They are certainly prohibited from having any interest in any establishment placed under their inspection. Then that raises this question, which will be answered very differently by different people, as to what sum will be necessary to offer in order to secure freedom from any improper external influences. If it is found that inspectors of the proper type cannot be got for the salaries offered there will have to be a new facing up to that situation. At any rate, an attempt is now being made to get people for that particular salary. Section C, paragraph 18, states:
"It is desirable that, as far as possible, every establishment should be visited by an inspector for the purposes of general inspection not less frequently than once a year."
That, of course, we have not been able to act up to by any means. If our progress with regard to inspection were merely to continue at its present rate I think we should only have an inspection of every establishment once in three years. But, with the addition of the people now advertised for, we hope to arrive at the position when every establishment will be visited once a year. Consequently I move the acceptance of this recommendation, stating again that as the principles laid down are generally in accordance with the principles on which our factory inspection is organised, no legislation is required, and also stating for the information of the Dáil that I do admit that in many points the administration of the Acts falls behind the spirit of this recommendation, and that we will simply have to make an attempt to make it progress so as to get it properly in accordance with the spirit of this recommendation.
