Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 22 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 19

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go dtugaidh an Dáil cead chun na Meastacháin Bhreise agus Nua so a leanas, i gcóir seirbhíse na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, do thabhairt isteach, eadhon:—	That leave be given by the Dáil to introduce the following Supplementary and Additional Estimates for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, viz.:—
Vótanna a 14 (Cúiteamh i gCailliúna Maoine), 61 (Roimh-íocanna le Cumainn Chreidiuna Talmhaíoctha).	Votes No. 14 (Property Losses Compensation), 61 (Advances to Agricultural Credit Societies).

Deputies have already heard something with regard to Vote 61. As regards Vote No. 14, this is really necessary in consequence of an arrangement that has been made with the British Government. For the future we will pay direct to people who have got awards in connection with the destruction done during 1916. The money will come into us from the British Exchequer, and there will be no loss to our Exchequer as a result of it.

Mr. BAXTER

With regard to Vote No. 61 (Advances to Agricultural Credit Societies) I want to know if the Minister has anything to add to the proposition that has already been made?

Mr. BLYTHE

The Vote itself will not come forward for a week or two. This is merely a motion for leave to introduce these supplementary estimates.

Mr. BAXTER

The Minister now says that this Vote will not be introduced for a fortnight. What I am anxious to know is—are we likely to have a further statement of policy as to the intentions of the Ministry with regard to solving the problem of the losses that have been sustained by farmers in the country? If the Minister has nothing better to offer than the proposition already put up by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, in conjunction, I presume, with himself, to meet the losses that have been sustained by the owners of sheep and cattle, and if he thinks that getting this Vote for the establishment of these credit societies accepted by the House is going to solve the problem, then I want to tell him that it is not.

The mere introduction of this Vote for the purpose of finding a solution of the problem that we know exists is, I fear, a waste of time. The proposition that has already been stated in the House by the Minister for Agriculture will not solve the problem that exists. I may tell the Minister for Finance that, unless he is prepared to amend very considerably the offer that has already been made, the motion that he is now introducing will certainly not solve this problem. At the same time I do not want to be taken as saying that the principle itself is not sound. I believe it is, and I believe, further, that we should have these credit societies in existence.

There may be a possibility of establishing these societies in counties where farmers have not suffered anything more than normal losses by the loss of cattle from disease or otherwise, but I suggest there is no possibility whatever of establishing them in the poorer districts in the Saorstát where farmers have sustained very great losses. The Minister may get leave to introduce his motion and it may be agreed to by the House, but that, I say, will still leave the problem unsolved if the Executive Council be not prepared to do a good deal more than was indicated in the statement of the Minister for Agriculture some weeks ago. If nothing better than that can be done, this, I suggest, is merely playing with the problem, and it will continue to exist. I would like to hear from the Minister if he has considered the magnitude of the task that he is setting himself. If the Minister thinks that, by the establishment of these credit societies and by the Government giving £1 for every £1 put up by farmers in the districts concerned, this problem is going to be solved, I may tell him that he is very badly informed.

Mr. BLYTHE

I do not propose to discuss the matter at all on this resolution. All I will say is that we are still satisfied that it is necessary to assist in the establishment of credit societies. If the Dáil does not want to assist in the establishment of these societies then it can reject the Vote. I am not going to discuss the general question at this stage.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I wish to support Deputy Baxter in the statement he made. From the opinions we get from all parts of the country it is clear that this arrangement for credit societies does not meet the emergency in any way. The general opinion is that the estimate of the Minister for Agriculture as to the losses that have taken place is very much below the actual state of affairs. When the original motion of Deputy Baxter was before the House, I said that there were no losses of any consequence in my country, but I was very much surprised since to find out that I was wrong, and that even in my own county there have been very serious losses. This credit system, as proposed by the Government, will not meet the emergency. We do not oppose the system; on the contrary, we have been advocating such a system for a long time. But what we want now is to meet a special emergency. This will not meet it, particularly in the poorer districts where the greater losses accrued, and where it is generally believed it will be quite impossible to get the farmers to put down a £1 in order to get a £1 from the Government.

One must take this opportunity of impressing upon the Minister for Finance, and upon the Government generally, that this problem is a real one, and that they will have need to meet the contingency in a much quicker fashion than this. I have here a letter from a constituent of mine who, speaking of the losses he sustained, says that he lost twelve yearlings out of seventeen, and three two-year-olds out of thirteen. We could multiply that by many instances in my county, and my county is not as badly hit as a number of other counties.

Mr. COLE

I do not object to this Vote at all, but I quite agree with the Deputies who have spoken. Unfortunately, I have to go further than Deputy Heffernan when he said that the farmers are not willing to put up the money. They are not willing to put up the money because they have not got it. I know farmers that were supposed to be well off who are living on the verge of starvation. I could give instances where we had to raise subscriptions for farmers and their families who were threatened with starvation, and if they cannot get money for food where are they to get money to put down pound for pound with that put up by the Government? The loss of cattle in most cases was really much worse than was supposed, or than Deputies have stated. I know a man who lost a large number of sheep. My county (Cavan) is not a sheep-raising county, but a few of the farmers keep sheep and small cattle, and most of these sheep and cattle died. It would be utterly impossible for the farmers in that county to put up pound for pound with the Government.

Mr. GOREY

I would not intervene at all at this stage in the matter were it not for what the Minister seemed to convey a few moments ago, and that was that we did not want this estimate at all. We really do want it. We do not want the Government to be committed to a certain scheme but that they should make up their minds to look at this matter in a bigger and a broader way than they suggested here on a previous occasion. I want to impress upon the Minister for Finance that there are more aspects of this question and that these should be dealt with in a different way to that which the Minister proposes.

I had a communication from the Kerry County Committee of Agriculture upon this matter. That is not a communication coming from our Union, or coming through committees of farmers, but it comes through the County Committee of Agriculture of Kerry, and they say that the proposal of the Minister will not meet the situation. We know personally that it will not. The question of fifty-fifty, or pound for pound, will not meet the situation. It will mean this: that there will be no pound at all contributed by the Government, because there will be none forthcoming from the farmer, for the simple reason that he has not got it. This scheme cannot be based on a hard and fast rule; it will have to be elastic. Laying down the principle of fifty-fifty, or pound for pound, is only really tinkering with the question. I impress upon the Minister that he should reconsider this whole matter and deal with it otherwise than he proposes.

Mr. BAXTER

May I ask the Minister, when he says this matter will not come on for a fortnight, when it is intended that it will come on?

Mr. BLYTHE

The date has not been fixed, although the Vote has been circulated.

Mr. BAXTER

Does the Minister recognise the urgency of this problem? A fortnight may mean a great deal. It may mean two months before anything can be done in the country and that may lead us on to the harvest. I think the Minister should have the Vote taken at the earliest possible date, and I believe the House would consent to forego other Votes, because both the House and the country recognise the urgency of this matter. I press the Minister to take it at the earliest possible moment, say Wednesday next.

Mr. BLYTHE

I will consider it. Motion put and agreed to.