Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Jun 1925

Vol. 12 No. 3

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 34—PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to move:

Go ndeontar suim na raghaidh thar £4,579 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig na nAnnálacha Puiblí agus Cimeádaí na Stát-Phaipéar, Baile Atha Cliath (30 agus 31 Vict. c. 70; 38 agus 39 Vict. c. 59 agus 39 agus 40 Vict., c. 58.

That a sum not exceeding £4,579 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the salaries and expenses of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of the State Papers, Dublin (30 and 31 Vict. c. 70; 38 and 39 Vict. c. 59, and 39 and 40 Vict. c. 58).

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Before this Vote is discussed, Deputies might wish to have some information in regard to this office. The Public Record Office, with the exception of some underground vaults, was destroyed in 1922 during the occupation of the Four Courts by the Irregulars. In view of that fact, all that can be done is to resume the collection of records and to recognise that it will not be possible to replace records that have been destroyed, and that it will not be possible to fill the gap that has been made. The office building is to be reconstructed, and arrangements have actually been made for the housing of any records which it is desirable to receive, without delay, but the main building is still in ruins, and the old staff are to a great extent dispersed on loan amongst other offices.

Deputies might possibly wish on this vote to know something of the scope and the history of this office. Commissioners were appointed in 1848 to inquire into the state of the public records in Ireland, They recommended that a public record office should be built, and the records placed under the charge and superintendence of the Master of the Rolls. The building was completed in 1867, and the Act, 30 & 31 Vic., c. 70, was passed establishing the office and placing it under the Master of the Rolls. That Act authorised the transfers to the office of (1) all records of the Courts of Chancery, Queen's Bench, Common Pleas, Exchequer, Probate and Admiralty, and of the former Courts of Prerogative, which should be of the age of 20 years from the making thereof; (2) all the records, maps, books and documents deposited in the Custom House; (3) all original wills of which probate shall have been granted in Ireland not later than 20 years; (4) with certain provisos, the records of the State Paper Office, except those which shall not be 50 years from the making thereof; (5) all records of any commissioners or public offices which shall have ceased to exist and are not comprised in the foregoing denominations.

The records of the various Crown and Peace officers have, from time to time, by Orders in Council, been brought under the control of the Master of the Rolls and deposited. Under Section 16 of the Act, any persons having the custody of documents which, in the opinion of the Master of the Rolls, were fit to be deposited as records were permitted to deposit them in the office. The registers of baptisms, marriages and burials in the late established Church of Ireland were brought under the control of the Master of the Rolls by 38 and 39 Vic., c. 59 (amended by 39 and 40 Vic., c. 58), and many of them were deposited in the Public Record Office. Under the Land Act of 1903, certain documents were directed to be deposited in the Public Record Office by the Quit Rent Office. The office exists not only for the arrangement and preservation of these records but for the making of certified copies of them for the public when required, and for the calendaring of selected documents of historical interest for publication.

When the office was burned in 1922 the salvage of the records was temporarily removed to the Record Tower, Dublin Castle, but was retransferred to the Four Courts in January, 1924, when the Office of Public Works had prepared strong rooms for its accommodation. During the course of last year additional strong rooms were provided in the basement of the Four Courts. Records are now being received from the Court Offices, the Probate Registries, and the Crown and Peace offices. Moreover, original documents and copies of records have in several cases been presented to the office or loaned to it for the purpose of having record copies made. The storage space provided will shortly be exhausted. The Board of Works has, however, made a start in the direction of providing additional storage. The floors of the former Record Treasury and of the vaults are being concreted, and it is intended to roof over portion of the walls of the Treasury which are still standing. When that is done, accommodation will have been provided sufficient to receive the accruing records for several years to come. Until this additional accommodation has been prepared the position of the office will not be satisfactory.

For the reception and arrangement of increments of records and the making of lists and indexes, and to enable copies to be made of records to replace those destroyed in 1922, it will be necessary to increase the clerical staff serving in the office. Of the staff provided for in our Estimates, one assistant keeper has been on loan to the Intermediate Education Department since 1922, one lower clerical officer has been on loan to the Department of Finance since 1922. All four copyists have been on loan since 1922. Three are at present in the Department of Finance and the fourth in the Land Commission. The two first-class searchers and two of the second-class searchers are at present on loan to the Land Commission, and were on loan to the Registrar-General since 1922. The total staff provided for in the Estimates is 23. Of these 10 are on loan to other Departments, and the number actually serving in the Public Record Office and in the State Paper Office at present is 13.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

There is just one point I would like to comment on, and it is in regard to the records that have been destroyed—not those of the immediate past. I believe that many of those were calendared. I believe some of them exist in calendars of the earlier times, and unless I am misinformed—I have made certain inquiries in regard to them—I believe that copies of the more important of the earlier records, what I might call the historical period running up to the 18th century, exist in Great Britain in the Record Office there. Those friends of mine who have worked in the Record Office in Fetter Lane, London, told me that they have encountered records of Irish documents in the vaults there. I think that that is a matter worth pursuing further. I have not worked in the London Record Office myself, and I am not able to speak with any authority on that matter, but I do know that in other libraries there are copies of Irish documents of some importance such as the Bodleian and elsewhere.

Our Exchequer at the present time is not likely to undertake heavy expenses; but I think it would be a desirable policy to adopt, to proceed with steadily and persistently, to get copies of these documents that are only available on the other side. Let us on this side, in regard to those parts of our records that contain national history, have copies in this country of the originals, where the originals exist in Great Britain, or have further copies where the copies exist in Great Britain. There is a precedent for that in the experience of other countries when they parted their political connection. The country that owns the documents that were of prime interest to the other country at their own expense furnished copies. There are abundant historical precedents for that practice, and it would not be a bad thing to put it up to the other side that that might be done by them. Even if it were not to be accepted by Great Britain, and she did not feel that the documents she possesses, and that deal vitally with the affairs of the country, and that should be in the Record Office here, should be provided by her for us at her expense, let us at least undertake the beginning of such an accumulation of records for ourselves. I am not suggesting that a large sum should be set aside this year in regard to it. I am merely suggesting the policy should be adopted and a certain sum should be set aside every year in order that students of Irish history, desiring to turn up certain documents and papers that exist in Great Britain, should not be under the necessity of going to Great Britain for them, but should have complete and adequate copies and files kept here. That is a policy that is worthy of very careful consideration.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I will see that the matters mentioned by Deputy Figgis are not lost sight of. I, of course, do not like to say more than that at this stage, but I will see that they are examined sympathetically. Ultimately, of course, it will be a question for the Minister for Finance as to whether an expense, even a slight expense, ought to be incurred. If there are valuable records, similar to any of those that were destroyed in 1922, in England, in public libraries or elsewhere, I fully appreciate the importance of trying to get them.

Vote put and agreed to.