Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Jul 1925

Vol. 12 No. 17

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - VOTE 53—RAILWAY TRIBUNAL.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim na raghaidh thar £5,725 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun tuarastail agus costaisí eile an Bhínse Bhóthair Iarainn a bunuíodh fé Acht na mBóthar Iarainn, 1924.

That a sum not exceeding £5,725 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the Salaries and other Expenses of the Railway Tribunal constituted under the Railways Act, 1924.

Mr. DAVIN

I should like to ask the Minister if he expects that the preparation of rates, schedules and the fixing of standard charges will be complied with in accordance with his hope and the conditions laid down in the Act. I wonder if he has any knowledge, or has made any inquiries, as to how far that work has been performed up to the present, as six months have now elapsed, and whether any indication has been conveyed to him that there will be an application for postponement of the period laid down in the Act for the doing of that work.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

All that I can say is that certain requisitions have been made, certain questions have been asked of the companies and the various other people concerned, with regard to the rates and classification, and the Tribunal is keen upon seeing that the time inside which these matters have to be arranged will not be exceeded. That is the most I can say. I have no information as to the actual details coming from day to day before the Tribunal, or how the work is progressing, but I know they are impressed with the necessity of getting the work completed in the period laid down and have not made any representation so far that that period is likely to be exceeded.

Mr. DAVIN

The Minister has had no application from the railway for an extension of the time-limit laid down? I can take it that if such an application was made it would not be granted as far as he is concerned?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy can take it that no representation has been made, but he cannot take it that I am binding myself in advance that an application which would be put up and backed by a very good case is not going to receive the consideration it will merit. There is no indication that such a representation is coming forward.

Mr. DAVIN

If the Minister is not actually aware of what is going on, has he taken steps to make himself acquaintend with what has been done, and if very little has been done, or is being done by the company to comply with the particular clauses of the Act, would the Minister not regard it as part of his duty to make inquiries in order to see that the six months since the 1st January have been used to prepare the statements and figures required in order to have the Act complied with?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think that until a prima facie case is made that there is delay, or that the work is not being carried out in the way it should be, it is not my business to assume that the worst is going to happen; that there will be delay, and that some representation will be made in the end. Until a prima facie case is made, until I have some evidence, I do not think I am bound to do that, or called upon to do it. Further, I think the Tribunal can be relied upon to take a proper measure of its own time and its own limitations, and to make early representation to me, if it thought that the time is going to be exceeded. In the absence of such, I can only assume that matters are going on all right.

Mr. DAVIN

The Minister will hear about it later.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I want to ask if the Minister has made any representation to the Tribunal as regards the fixing of a rate for the carrying of sugar beet on the railways. It was stated by Deputy Davin that there is no fixed rate here for the carrying of sugar beet.

Mr. DAVIN

The Deputy should be careful to quote me correctly. I said that it was not in the classification.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I take Deputy Davin's correction, that there is no classification with regard to the carriage of sugar beet. I need hardly impress upon the Minister the necessity for fixing classification at as early a date as possible. The people interested in the establishment of factories are very anxious to have a flat rate, if possible, thereby increasing the possibility of having beet carried from a longer distance than it could be carried according to the present charges.

Mr. A. BYRNE

Might I ask if the Tribunal has given any consideration to the question of the effect on the railways of road traffic? There has been a good deal of discussion recently about traffic on the roads, and that it is a serious handicap on the working of the railways. I think this is a matter that should be carefully looked into, both by the Tribunal and by the Department, to see if something could not be done, and some arrangement made, whereby there would not be unfair competition subsidised by the ratepayers, who pay for the upkeep of the roads. Such unfair competition should not be assisted in opposition to the railways.

Mr. HEWAT

May I take exception to the criticism of Deputy Byrne. The railways are a self-contained unit, and I take it, are well able to look after their own business. I object to Deputy Byrne's suggestion with regard to the use of the roads, that the whole question of road transport should come under the purview of any railway.

Mr. BYRNE

Heavy traffic.

Mr. HEWAT

Heavy traffic is a matter for the Dáil and those interested in the upkeep of the roads. Unless you are going to admit that you will nationalise the railways, I say comparison between the roads and the railways is not a question that comes under this Vote.

Mr. GOREY

I take a different view to that of Deputy Hewat. The railways pay rates on their property and pay a proportion for the upkeep of public institutions, roads, etc. If we are liable, as we are, to maintain public highways to carry traffic, I think we are also liable to pay the railways a capital sum equal to what was paid for construction. If we must maintain public highways, we must also maintain the railways.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Tribunal denies that.

Mr. GOREY

We pay for the construction of the roads. The railway company, at least, owns the rolling stock.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

The Tribunal has nothing to do with this.

Mr. WILSON

I take it that the Tribunal is now engaged in preparation of what is known as standard charges, and in the formulation of these charges it is of importance that those interested in rates on agricultural products should have an opportunity of having their side of the question placed before the Tribunal, before the end of the year.

Mr. HEWAT

All are invited to attend there.

Mr. DAVIN

I would like to ask the Minister if any steps have been taken by the officers of the Tribunal to make inquiries as to the effect of the existing classification on the exports and imports of this country. I take the view, and I think other Deputies will subscribe to it, that the existing classification based as it is to-day—and there is a grave danger that it may be continued, but I hope not—gives preference to the exports of this country for the use of people in Great Britain, and in a way sets up a tariff against articles imported. I would like to have some information from the Minister as to whether he has had any official on the Tribunal, or officials of the Transport Department, looking into that aspect of the case, so that when the case for confirmation of classification comes before the Tribunal the matter can be gone into. The whole question is one that should be carefully gone into by the Department of Transport, or by officials of the Railway Tribunal, to see what has been the effect in the past, and if there would be any justification for an alteration in the existing classification, or if there is a likelihood of the same classification being adopted here as exists in England to-day, or as may be altered as a result of a Committee that is now going into the matter.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Most of the questions that have been asked can be answered by saying that the Tribunal has set a certain programme before itself, and that representations can be received in the way set out in the Railways Act. The question of classification is one that will be dealt with about the month of October, and at that time the question of sugar beet, to which Deputy Heffernan referred, will fall due for consideration. As far as he is representative of certain people, Deputy Wilson missed one chance actually offered to him. He could have come in or representatives could have come in, on the question of the conditions of carriage, but I may reassure the Deputy by telling him that any work he could have done was done, I think, very efficiently for him by people who had studied every aspect of it, and who had to make a certain case and put up certain representations. Deputy Wilson I think was asking what was the line along which they were proceeding. Their programme would include and they were actually dealing some time ago, as the Deputy must know from the newspapers, with the conditions of carriage. The question of classification and standard charges will come on in due order later. Deputy Davin may also rest assured that the question of classification is being attended to, and that a proper inquiry will actually result before the Tribunal when they come to deal with it. I do not know if road traffic falls under the censure of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle with regard to irrelevancy. I do not see that the Railway Tribunal has anything to do with it.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

With regard to the Minister's reply concerning sugar beet, and the classification with regard to sugar beet, I would like to ask him is there any possibility of speeding up the consideration of that classification? My reasons for suggesting that are that the districts which are proposing to put up beet sugar factories are very much concerned with the cost of carriage. Farmers who have been asked to promise to send sugar beet from long distances are also very much concerned in this matter. There is no very definite information available at present as far as I know. The rumour is going round that a flat rate will be established. What the rates are at present I do not know. In England they are 5s. a ton for about 10 miles. That would be rather a prohibitive charge for any carriage beyond a distance of 10 miles. I would like to hear from the Minister is there any possibility of having a pronouncement made on this matter before October, or perhaps at a later date, when the decision of the Tribunal will be published? I ask that because the people interested in the project at present are anxious to get some immediate information with regard to it.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It would be quite impossible as the work of the Tribunal is set out to get one matter such as sugar beet dragged out and have consideration given to it apart from everything else. There has to be some order with regard to the matter with which the Tribunal has to deal. They have to deal with classification, and after classification, and as a result of it, the question of standard charges falls to be determined. If you take one item out of, and ahead of, its time, and do not look upon it with relation to other items that may fall in this or in another class, you could not possibly have a definite determination of your standard charges. It would be quite impossible, even though there might be an advantage, to get this taken out of its order. At all events I have not understood from the Minister for Agriculture that there was any great advantage in having that matter decided ahead of its time. The main point calling for consideration at the moment with regard to sugar beet traffic is a very simple one, as to what transport facilities there would be round about certain areas. The promoters who are going to take advantage of the sugar beet proposals are surveying with the intention of setting up a factory there. Of course the question of the charge upon such an article as sugar beet, or the class into which it will be put, will have nothing to say to that because that will operate all over the country.

Mr. GOREY

Am I to understand that there is no classification for roots? Beet will come under the classification of roots.

Mr. DAVIN

The mileage charge.

Mr. GOREY

I do not know what the charges are but I take it that beet would come under the classification of roots, and if you knew what the charges on mangolds or turnips were, you would know what the charges on beet would be. On the other hand, we have an example of railway charges on other matters. A half-wagon, coming from Dublin to Kilkenny is £1 4s. a ton. A fortnight ago I paid £3 12s. for three tons of cake from Dublin. That is an extraordinary charge and it gives an example of the charges made on the Irish railways. While the country has to meet charges of that description it is a great handicap on industry. I do not know what the charges on beet are, but this charge on cake is a great hardship and a great handicap on industry.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The time for pleading for a special rate has not arrived.

Mr. GOREY

The time is ripe to have it considered.

Mr. HEWAT

May I suggest to Deputy Gorey that the answer we got some time ago in connection with the area which would be needed to supply a beet sugar factory would cover this. It would be within a thirty-miles radius, and the Deputy has it in his own hands to make a suitable rate, because it is a distance quite within the operation of motor-cars.

Mr. DAVIN

Deputy Heffernan is stressing this matter too far, because if we rely on the Minister for Finance's statement, the factory will not be built until 1926. Long before that, the Tribunal will have decided the matter of standard charges, etc. Deputy Gorey should realise that the Act gives power to the railway company, power which they always possessed over their own line, to give special reduced rates for any article that is likely to produce an increase of revenue for the Company. I hope the Company will not be prevented by the Tribunal from doing that in the future. Deputy Gorey did not probably examine very carefully or go very deeply into how the three pounds-twelve was made up. He is not a mathematician, but if he looks into the receipt there would be a possibility of getting a rebate from what is an excessive charge.

Mr. GOREY

I must employ Deputy Davin.

Mr. DAVIN

I would like to ask the Minister if any representations have been made to him by the Gt. Southern Railways for an amending Bill dealing with the compensation clauses of the Railways Act. I know several cases where officials were declared to be redundant, and where their pensions have not been settled because of some confusion that has existed in the minds of the lawyers, acting on behalf of this staff and the Company as to what they were entitled to. I am informed, and I would like to have it contradicted if it is not a fact, that it is likely that representations will be made to the Government for an amendment to the Compensation Clauses of the Act. I would ask if that is so or not?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

With regard to Deputy Davin's point, my reason for raising the matter of the rates on sugar-beet is that even though the factory will not be established until 1926, farmers are being asked to give guarantees that they will grow a certain acreage of beet. The point is that farmers who are long distances away, and who will send their beet by rail, want to know where they stand, and whether they will grow beet or promise to grow beet. And in order to come to a decision on that matter, they will first have to know what the railway charges will be on the carriage of beet.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am not clear if Deputy Heffernan is satisfied with the answer that Deputy Davin gave him on the point raised. As far as I could gather, it is entirely satisfactory and I have nothing to add to it. With regard to Deputy Davin's own question to me, there appear to be certain doubts as to the interpretation of portion of Schedule 3, dealing with compensation. I have had a certain representation made to me in that respect. I could not conceive—at least, it was not made clear—that the doubt that was said to have arisen could reasonably arise on the interpretation of that clause. The matter has not advanced any further since. I have no intention of introducing any amendment to the legislation, but I do not say that amending legislation would not be necessary if a certain interpretation were given to a particular clause.

Mr. JOHNSON

I take it the question would be whether a new Act would not be cheaper than a declaration of the Courts?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not know that that point arises. Obviously it would not cost anything to have a new Bill.

Mr. DAVIN

It would not get a free passage here.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I still hold it would not cost anything.

Mr. HEWAT

I would like to go back on sub-head (b)—travelling and incidental expenses. I suppose the same increase applies to the longer period that is covered?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes.

Mr. HEWAT

I take it these travelling and incidental expenses do not cover anything in the way of railway fares, seeing that the gentlemen who are travelling on the railways are, as I presume they are, in possession of free passes.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not understand what Deputy Hewat is at. Does he mean that the members of the Railway Tribunal have free passes, and that temporary members of the Tribunal, who may be called upon to serve, would, in all cases, have free railway passes?

Mr. HEWAT

In view of their position in connection with the Railway Tribunal, it would be no great compliment to give the members of the Tribunal free railway passes. It is not an unusual thing; in fact, it is a usual thing in connection with people even with a less claim than members of the Railway Tribunal would have. I would imagine that members of the Railway Tribunal would be supplied with free passes.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I only hope the Railway Companies will take the hint from what Deputy Hewat has said. This Vote is put down here in view of the likelihood that we will be called upon to pay railway travelling expenses in case they have to travel. If they do not travel, there will be so much saved.

Mr. HEWAT

I will give the Minister the advice that he ought not to pay.

Vote 53 put, and agreed to.