I attempted to raise some points on this Vote out of place, and I was ruled out of order by the Ceann Comhairle, who was in the Chair at the time. I deferred any remarks I had to make until we came to the Marine Services so as to be in order. What I want to refer to on this subject is the position of steamship owners in the Free State under the altered circumstances that have arisen through a change of Government. In making some remarks on the subject, I may mention that I have some interest in the tonnage registered in Dublin, and also that I have occupied the position of Chairman of the Shipping Federation for the Free State area. I would like to say that the British Mercantile Marine, and the laws governing the control of shipping, etc., are the growth of very many years of legislation, consideration and thought. The British Mercantile Marine travels all over the face of the globe; it is not a local, but rather a universal service, and it governs largely the conditions of shipping throughout the world. To a certain point we are incorporated in the British Mercantile Marine, and I think, except in some cases, where changes have had to be brought about, we are still operating under the Merchant Shipping Act and various other British Acts that govern the service of steamships.
Shipping owners in the Free State are not many in number, and we are not of very great importance, I take it, as compared with the British Mercantile Marine; but we do place a very great deal of importance on not being separated by differential legislation in any way from the traditions of the British Mercantile Marine. I do not know whether that statement will contravene or contradict national aspirations in any way, but, looking at the British Mercantile Marine as a service of world-wide importance, I think we should still be governed and controlled by legislation that can be co-ordinated with the service on the other side of the water. That is of very great importance to us. Personally, I would like the Government, and I think my colleagues who are interested in shipping in the Free State would also like the Government to consider the position and formulate a policy on this matter. I agree that the difficulties that arise are very considerable, and are not easily got over. A few points may have to be got over.
I would like to impress the House with the importance of being brought into line in every way with the British mercantile marine. In the past Irish sailors have been engaged on board British ships, and they had the benefit of all the legislation, the unemployment and the social legislation, that has been adopted in Great Britain. The partial severance of the conditions applicable to sailors and firemen is at present, I think, a hardship on the Irish sailors on board British ships, and equally so, but not necessarily so, is it to be taken into consideration by this House in the case of English and Scotch sailors on board Irish ships. The need for co-operation and coordination in connection with these regulations will be seen. It is necessary to keep our Irish sailors on the same standard as they have been in the past. If the legislation in the two countries varies in any way, immediately the difference in nationality becomes a rather serious matter. The privilege of Irish sailors being able to go on board the British ships, equal in every way with the sailors of the other nationalities, is an asset that we ought to try and secure for them as far as we possibly can.
As regards ship-owners, I have found a very considerable inclination on the part of the main Shipping Federation, which has its headquarters in London, and of which we are only a local committee, to regard us as an insignificant unit in relation to the change that has taken place. Of course, as regards the amount of tonnage we control or administer, we are insignificant, but I have always taken the higher stand since the change has taken place, that we should be represented on the Shipping Federation as a unit of very considerable importance —of much more importance than we could claim to be in relation to the tonnage we control. As regards the present carrying on of the service, which is covered by this Marine Service Vote, the Merchant Shipping Act has applied to this country up to the present. But I understand that the Department have had, from an early stage, the idea of bringing in a separate Merchant Shipping Act for this country. If that be so, I would urge that it should be decided upon as early as possible, because various complications are arising from time to time under the present state of affairs.
We might get over these difficulties better if we knew exactly what was before us. I do not ask the Minister for any answer on this point to-night. I only mention the matter so that it will receive due consideration. I hope the decision will be in the direction I advocate, if possible. I do not claim a right to request that the Department should do anything that would be contrary to the national aspirations. But we, as shipowners, claim inter-dependence with British shipping. We run to British ports, and so far as our cross-Channel services are concerned, we are in much the position as we are here. Separation would not be at our request, and would not be in our interest. We ask that the services should be co-ordinated, and we ask that every effort should be made so that Irish sailors on board British ships should not be handicapped in comparison with British sailors. We would urge that the laws of the two countries should be so formulated that a case such as occurred recently could be dealt with by the Courts here, and their decision acknowledged as binding on both sides of the Channel.
That may not be possible. I do not say it is possible. But to-day an Irish sailor injured on board a British ship, trading to China, Japan, or any other country, is entitled to compensation for injury under the Workmen's Compensation Act. That man may want to come home here and live in his own country, but under a recent decision in the Courts here, that man has no claim against the British shipowner so far as our laws are concerned. To take his case into the Court, he has to go over to the other side of the Channel and submit to the British Courts, because the ship is owned by British ship-owners and subject to British legislation. All these things complicate matters so far as shipping is concerned.
It may be the idea that the Free State, or Ireland as a whole, may require to have a mercantile marine. I am afraid the conditions will never warrant the separate establishment of a mercantile marine or the severance of the two countries in that way. There are, of course, other difficulties. Take our national and financial policy to-day. You have a man on board an Irish ship sailing to Liverpool. The cost of living is lower in Liverpool than it is in the Free State, that being due largely to the fiscal policy of the Free State. The inclination of that sailor, who is going from port to port, will be to change his home from this to the other side. That would, of course, work against the Irish sailor on an Irish ship. These are matters which require grave consideration.
I do not put forward any proposal that Irish ships should be treated differently from British ships. It might be in my interests, and in the interest of my colleagues, to come forward here and say that Irish ships should be subsidised because they are Irish ships. The same claim is being put forward from various parts of the House in respect of other matters. The claim could be put forward that shipping is in such a parlous state that a subsidy is required to keep Irish boats running. I make no such claim. I ask to be placed on a level with our competitors, and I hope that is all I will ever ask in this House. To-day, of four boats, we have two tied up, because they lose less lying up than they would running. That is a phase of the trade as a whole, but we have to do our part and face the loss as best we can.
These things will right themselves in time. I would hope that, with the new national aspirations which we are trying to cultivate, the mercantile marine attached to the Free State would, in due course, increase in size and importance very considerably. But I hope it will never be put forward here, or elsewhere, that this increase should be brought about by anything except natural causes and ordinary businesslike attention to work. The question of subsidy ought not to arise. The moment you separate Irish shipping from British shipping, Irish steamers are placed practically in an impossible position in competition with shipping as a whole. I ask that, in dealing with this matter, the Government should consider shipping as a universal service and try to give us the benefits of the co-operation which we at present enjoy with the British mercantile marine, instead of a policy of separating us from our larger neighbour.
