asked the Minister for Defence whether he has considered the general question of compensation for injuries received by officers and men of the National Army, subsequent to the 30th September, 1923, and, if so, whether he will expedite payment of pension or gratuity to Mrs. Anastasia Ryan, 28 Hospital Street, Kildare, in respect of her son, Volunteer Thomas Ryan, Army No. 41316, A Company, 7th Battalion, who died on the 26th November, 1924, in Cork Street Hospital, Dublin, from meningitis caused, it is stated, by the falling of a sandbag on his head while stationed in Baldonnell.
CEISTEANNA—QUESTIONS. ORAL ANSWERS. - ARMY PENSION CLAIM (KILDARE).
The question of compensation for injuries received by officers and other ranks of the Forces subsequent to the 30th September, 1923, is under consideration, and I hope to ask leave during this session for the introduction of legislation to deal with such cases.
As regards the case of Mrs. Ryan I would refer the Deputy to the reply which I gave to his previous question on the 25th March, 1925, in which I stated that I have no knowledge of the accident to the late Private Thomas Ryan.
Would the Minister be a little more precise by stating what he means by hoping to ask leave to introduce a Bill this session? This session has lasted two years. Does the Minister mean before Christmas?
I cannot bind myself to bring in the Bill before Christmas, but a Departmental Committee is working on this matter and as soon as their report is completed it is hoped to bring in a Bill.
Is that an amendment to the answer the Minister has given in which he spoke about this session? What does he mean precisely? Has he any ulterior meaning in mind? What exactly does he mean?
Before June, I think. I have no ulterior motive.
Then we are to understand that in the Minister's mind this session is to continue until June?
As far as the Dáil is concerned, I thought that our sessions are practically continuous.
I hope that will be confirmed by the President.
Did the Minister make any inquiries as to the statements embodied in this question since 25th March? Surely he should have made some inquiries as to the cases put before him?
We have not received any application from Mrs. Ryan.
Is the Minister aware that it is at least 12 months since he promised to introduce an amending Bill dealing with the Military Pensions Act?
It is longer than 12 months. It is probably 18 months ago.
Is it not a fact that the Minister stated in this House that the amending Bill had passed over to the Department of Finance, and is it not a fact that it has been held up by the Department of Finance? Has it been turned down?
No. As I understand there were quite a large number of questions which arose out of the matter. There were various explanations given as to the cause of the delay. It can be quite conceived that a measure of this sort would involve the State in very considerable sums of money if it were not subject to the most stringent examination. I explained more than once that we are prepared to pay what we are morally liable for, but we are not prepared to pay what we have no moral liability for. In this case, though not on all fours with this amending Bill, the scheme for compensation must be very carefully thought out. It is considered inadvisable to have to amend a Bill of this sort when it is once brought forward. It requires very careful examination to introduce a measure or Bill which will be proof against abuses and a measure that will satisfy the requirements of the case without imposing a heavy burden on the State.
Is the scheme not being considered since last January?
This particular scheme has been under consideration since January, and the previous scheme, the amending Bill to the Wounds Pensions Act, has been under consideration for 18 months.
Is it in order when a question is directed to a Minister— not to speak of courtesy — that the President should step in and answer it on behalf of the Minister when the Minister is present?
It is a question for the President and the Minister, and not a question of order.
I intervened because I was Minister for Defence at the time, and gave the original undertaking.
Would the Minister say whether he would send a form of application to Mrs. Ryan so that she can make her application in proper form?
Certainly.
Would the President state now when it is proposed to introduce the amending Bill?
I will say that no undue delay will take place, but I cannot undertake to give the precise date.
Is the President aware that that Bill was promised 18 months ago and we were again promised 12 months ago that it would be introduced in December?
Yes, and if this Bill were introduced then there would probably be 40,000 claims lodged against the State. The State is not liable morally or otherwise in respect of those 40,000 claims. We are and were prepared to accept full liability in respect of cases in which we recognised that we were liable. Take this case: if a man joined the National Army in 1922 or 1923, and got tuberculosis or rheumatism, or some other disease such as these while in the National service, we were prepared to accept liability, but we are not prepared to accept liability for a person who enters the service of the National Army with an indisposition and desires compensation going out because of that indisposition.
Is the Government prepared to allow the genuine cases to suffer because they anticipate that there will be a number of non-genuine claims submitted?
They suffer only to the extent of delay in having their cases heard and determined. In the matter of the delay, I would say that it is necessary in the interests of the State.
Are the cases being considered before legislation is to be introduced?
No, but the whole question is being carefully examined.
Is it the opinion of the Government that the longer they delay in bringing in this Bill the less claims there will be through the passing away of disabled soldiers?
There has been no undue delay and I would like to repeat that there has been no undue delay. If the Deputy were himself the Executive Council, he would have to explain to the Dáil the very same causes of delay that we have had to explain.