Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Feb 1926

Vol. 14 No. 12

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - SUPPLEMENTARY AND ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES. VOTE 11—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS (RESUMED).

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance, and debate was resumed on Vote 11 (Public Works and Buildings).

Mr. DAVIN

I feel almost disposed to move a reduction in this Estimate, but I am afraid it would not have the desired effect. I was rather amazed and disappointed at the statement made by the Minister for Finance last night, and the doubt expressed by him, in very carefully selected language, as to whether or not the Government had decided to proceed with this work on the Barrow. I am surprised and disappointed, especially in view of the very definite statements made by him on public platforms during the recent by-elections. On 24th January, speaking in Portlaoighise, the Minister is reported to have said in connection with this matter:—

"They were confident it was worth while going ahead with the scheme. They were going to start work as soon as preparations were completed. They had a staff working on the voluminous plans and specifications, and when that work was sufficiently advanced, a Bill would be submitted to the Dáil."

On the 7th February he was much more definite, and apparently had more detailed information at his disposal, when he is reported to have said at Mountrath:—

"The scheme would be a most expensive one. It would run into not less than £750,000, perhaps £1,000,000. If it ran to more than £1,000,000, at least half would have to be contributed by the Central Exchequer. The Government believed that it was justified in making that contribution because of the unemployment prevalent. Some work would be done on the scheme next Summer, but the main work, probably, would not be in operation until the following year."

Speaking here last night—I have not the Official Report before me, but I have a report published in the same journal as I have already quoted from —the Minister stated:

"If the work were to be gone on with, the localities and places benefited would have to pay half the cost"

Apparently there is an element of doubt in the Minister's mind. To me it seems clear that the Executive Council have not come to a final decision as to what they intend to do in connection with the Barrow drainage scheme. This scheme has been talked of for many years; it comes in for special reference during the periods of general elections and by-elections. If the Minister made inquiries from the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, he could, I am sure, easily satisfy himself that sufficient unemployment and distress exist in the counties adjoining the Barrow as would justify him in going ahead with this work at once.

On another occasion the Minister stated that a sum of fifty thousand pounds was available; they were, as a matter of fact, advised that the amount might be quite usefully spent and he indicated that a considerable sum could safely and economically be spent prior to the completion of the plans. That sum of fifty thousand pounds that the Minister stated would likely be spent during the financial year that is now coming to a close has not been spent. We are now asked for £2,300, an amount which will not give much relief to the workless individuals residing in the Barrow drainage area.

I always gave the Minister credit for being quite frank; he has been brutally blunt on some occasions. I want him to be perfectly frank with the House and with the country now. Will he tell us what are the real intentions of the Ministry in regard to this scheme? If the Minister, when he visited the country recently, had gone into Mountmellick or Portarlington, instead of Edenderry and Mountrath, he would have discovered many houses in the town of Portarlington flooded to the extent of five feet and he would have found similar conditions at Mountmellick. People in those towns had to live in the upper rooms of their houses. Around that area there are thousands of people workless and there is destitution and starvation to a degree that one can scarcely imagine.

I would like the Minister—he could go in disguise if he wishes—to visit the Barrow drainage area, especially that portion from Athy and Carlow over to Shannon Harbour and on to Monasterevan. There he would observe the conditions under which the people have to live. Many houses around there are flooded annually, and the people have big difficulties to contend with. It would be well if the Minister made an effort to find out the actual conditions prevailing. I am sure he would satisfy himself that the unemployment and distress existing amongst the working classes and the small farmers constitute a sound reason for the immediate commencement of the work.

This thing of relieving distress in the Barrow drainage area has been talked of too long. I know the present Ministry has been considering this matter since the early part of 1923. Deputations representative of the residents in the affected areas placed their cases before the Ministry, and definite promises were made in 1923 and subsequently, particularly at the election in Carlow in 1924, that the work would be started in 1924. Two years have elapsed and we seem to be as near the commencement of the work as when Ministers spoke in the Carlow election. The drainage of the Barrow is a work that would be of advantage to the State and of benefit to the community living in the areas adjoining the river banks. The Ministry must have arrived at a decision as to whether the work would be a national advantage, apart from the benefit it would confer on the people in the affected areas. I am sure the Ministers constituting the Government have made up their minds on that question.

In the recent by-election I spent most of my time in the Barrow drainage area that is included in the Leix-Offaly constituency. Wherever the opportunity occurred, I asked the people to vote on the issue of whether or not they were anxious to have this work done. I asked them to cast their votes for the nominee of the party I was associated with as a protest against the failure of the Minister for Finance and his colleagues on the Executive Council to fulfil the promises they made in 1923-24. If the Minister wishes to ask the agents representing his party at the counting of the votes what was the result of the voting in Mountmellick, Stradbally, Vicarstown, Monasterevan, and other portions of the constituency in the affected area, he will discover that every vote cast there was a very emphatic vote against the Government. I am sure that the majority of the voters there voted for the Labour Party nominee. As to the result of the election, we are not disappointed. The fact remains that the Minister has to recognise that in the recent by-election down there 24,400 people voted against the policy of the Government. They did not vote against the Treaty, but they voted against the Government's policy. The Minister will also find that 16,400 voted for his policy of "go slow" in regard to matters of this kind and other matters which affect the people in the locality. The Minister must take a note of that warning. It is a message to him, and it is particularly directed at promises that have been made but not carried out.

In this matter of the Barrow drainage those who constitute the Government have either to go on with the work or give reasons why they are not in the position to carry out their promises. There is a dispute as to the area of charge for portion of the cost. I think the Minister said that portion of the cost will be on the localities. That is a matter of detail. Ever since the agitation started it was always accepted in Kildare, Leix, Offaly and other surrounding counties that the people would have to pay some portion of the cost. The area of charge is in dispute. Deputies Dwyer, Egan, Bulfin and Conlan, and other Deputies, will, I am sure, have something to say in regard to that matter. The people they represent should be consulted, however, before the matter is finally determined.

There are several important points to be considered. When is the work going to be started? Will it be started this year? How many men will be employed? Will the workers be taken out of the particular areas where most unemployment and distress exist? Is the Minister in a position to give a guarantee that whatever may be the area of the local charge, that area will be the one from which the unemployed will be taken to carry out the work? Whatever portions of Leix, Offaly, Kildare, Carlow or Kilkenny are eventually selected as the area of charge, I make the claim that it is from that area men should be drawn to do any work that is necessary in connection with the scheme. I want the Minister to make a clear statement on the matter.

In the 1918 election the Minister for Justice said in Leix that if the people turned out the British Government and put in the Sinn Fein Party, the Barrow would be drained immediately. Nearly eight years have gone by, yet nothing has been done. The Minister for Justice has had ample powers since 1922, yet he has made no move. It is up to him and the Minister for Finance to justify the promises they made in 1918. The time has arrived when the Government should be straight with the people. They should not leave this matter of the Barrow drainage over until there is another by-election, and they should not be making themselves the laughing-stock of the community.

Mr. COLOHAN

I join with Deputy Davin in urging the Minister to have this work started during the summer. We have had repeated promises by the Government in regard to the drainage of the Barrow. It is time to honour those promises, if there is to be such a thing as straight dealing in public life. The last by-election was properly called the "Barrow drainage by-election." The Minister knows quite well the extent of the destitution in the counties drained by the Barrow. He is aware of the high rates that were imposed this year to meet abnormal circumstances of unemployment and bad prices. When he mentions that half the cost should be borne by the people in the affected areas, I think he is asking too much.

When a deputation waited on Mr. McGrath, who was Minister for Industry and Commerce early in 1923, I put forward the proposal that the Government should pay two-thirds of the cost and the farmers one-third. Most of the deputation agreed with that, but, at a later period, the late Senator MacEvoy said they were prepared to pay pound for pound. There were a lot of dissentients amongst the deputation. Considering the adverse conditions the country had to face since, I think my proposal would be nearer to what the people are able to do.

You must deal with this Barrow drainage scheme as a national scheme. It is no use to talk about it as a local scheme. It affects the whole country, and, therefore, it cannot be considered otherwise than as a national problem. I would appeal to the Minister to start the work this summer. As far as plans are concerned, I suppose there were enough plans made out to fill this Chamber. I would urge that the work be started so as to relieve the unemployment that exists. I understand the trunk road scheme has been turned down.

Mr. BLYTHE

No.

Mr. COLOHAN

If it has not, then it is very much up in the air; it is where we cannot get at it and where it is no use to us. If you are going to go ahead with the road scheme, do so this summer. If you are not going to deal with that, then go ahead with the Barrow drainage scheme.

I understand there will not be any votes for relief grants brought forward in the coming Budget. What are the people going to do? Are you going to say to them "starve"? If that is to be your policy, we will have something to say to it. You have been trifling with us for the last two or three years. You have not met us fairly in the matter of the distress existing all over the country.

Mr. E. DOYLE

I desire to support Deputies Davin and Colohan in the plea they put forward. I represent Carlow and Kilkenny, and my constituency includes areas in which people have been flooded for centuries. I have been listening to politicians during the last three or four years, and I have heard all kinds of promises about the drainage of the Barrow. The position is just the same to-day as when those politicians were endeavouring to make their way into power. As far as I can see, the present Government is more interested in political pettifogging than in the safety of the people. Down in the district of Carlow-Graigue there are many people who, some two or three weeks ago, practically had to hang on to the very picture-railings on the walls of their houses, in order to keep themselves from being flooded out.

During the last by-election we heard a lot about the drainage of the Barrow. The Cumann na nGaedheal candidate floated in, so to speak, on the flooded Barrow. What are the people going to do in the affected areas? Around Bagenalstown, Leighlinbridge, St. Mullins, Graiguenamanagh, and especially round Carlow-Graigue, the people are seriously affected. Something must be done for them. As Deputy Colohan said, this is a national question. The Government owe a duty to the people down there. Members of the Government have made many promises in regard to the Barrow. I hope it will not be left like Tennyson's brook:

"Men may come and men may go, But I go on for ever."

I hope the Minister for Finance will take up this matter seriously. So far nothing has been done beyond the making of utterances on public platforms by men looking for a seat in the Dáil. I hope that the matter is going to be taken up seriously, and that the Barrow drainage scheme will be put into operation this summer to relieve the unemployed and to make the lands an asset not only to the landowners, but to the State in general.

Mr. J. CONLAN

It appears that this question of the Barrow drainage serves, at least, one useful purpose. Judging by the speeches we have heard, it has served as a topic at elections within the flooded area. I must confess that in my address to the electors I put it forward as a prominent plank, if you can call it such, in my platform. The statements that have been made by Labour Deputies are in no way exaggerated. The amount of suffering and loss occasioned there year by year to the people resident in the district is something appalling. I urged when this subject was before the Dáil before that the local people, the people who are interested and who will have to foot the Bill, should get definite information as to what the Government intend to ask as their contribution to the cost. During the course of the by-elections the Minister mentioned a sum of £700,000, and also said that it might run to £1,000,000. In the report of the eminent Swiss engineer who was sent over to inspect the Barrow, the amount was set down at £1,100,000. If you intend putting that on a limited area, such as Kildare and Leix and Offaly, I am afraid that it will impose an impossible burden on the people, and it is almost certain to give rise to opposition. When we speak of Kilkenny and Carlow it should be pointed out that there are no large areas damaged by the Barrow in either of these counties. The damage is confined to certain portions of Kildare, Leix, and Offaly. On that account I think the Minister should introduce a Bill showing the provisions that have been made and the demands that will be made on local bodies or residents within the flooded areas, and obtain their opinion as to whether it is feasible to pay such a sum. I think, if the demands are reasonable and if the people will agree, it will greatly facilitate the carrying out of the work.

Mr. P.J. EGAN

I do not think there is any necessity for anyone in the Dáil further to emphasise the necessity of the drainage of the Barrow. The Minister for Justice informed us some time ago that it had been a matter of controversy since the year 1815, and I think that everybody will agree that the grievance has somewhat matured since then. Here we are definitely asked to vote a sum in connection with the Barrow drainage. That, at least, is an indication that something is being done, notwithstanding the various reproaches levelled at the Executive Council for their tardiness in carrying out the work. It is apparent to everybody that before the work can be undertaken the greatest possible care must be taken to see that proper plans are formulated. I have been in the district within the last few days and I have seen surveyors and engineers active there. Obviously, all these necessary preliminaries will take time, because it is a job of such tremendous magnitude that nothing must be left to chance. It has been pointed out before that notwithstanding the fact that the Barrow drainage has been discussed for a number of years, there have not been up to recently any definite plans to enable the Government to go on with the work. Deputy Conlan referred to the area of charge. That is a very important matter. I have no doubt that we will get more information when the actual Bill is before us as regards that point. I would agree with Deputy Conlan that the people in those areas ought, as soon as possible, to have some indication of the precise machinery which is to be set up for fixing the area of charge. I am aware that this matter of fixing the area of charge is a highly scientific operation. You have probably thousands of people affected. Some of them will not have their land improved to an appreciable extent. Some of them will have their land improved to some extent, and, perhaps, some land will not be improved at all. The degree of improvement will have to be carefully measured. It is possible that some of these people whose land may not be improved are afraid that the charge may be put on them. I do not know if it is too soon to ask the Minister to give us some information on that aspect of the question, but if he were in a position to do so it would allay the fears of people there as to the future course of the work. I have not listened to the Minister's statement in full, but I would like to have an intimation from him as to when we may expect the introduction of the actual Bill dealing with the Barrow drainage.

Mr. JOHNSON

I want to emphasise the doubts that have been created by the Minister's statement as to whether there is any serious intention of proceeding with this scheme at all. We are going to vote the necessary money for the preliminaries, and I have no doubt that in due time the Bill, so long promised, will be produced. The Minister's statement yesterday, however, rather suggested to me—I was a little doubtful on hearing it, but on reading the report, which seems in this case to be a fair one, I came to the conclusion that the doubt is emphasised —that the Minister is not quite sure whether the scheme will be put into operation or not. On the whole, his inclination seems to be in favour of the scheme provided the present indications in favour of it continue, that there is not much prospect of the lands benefiting by the amount of expenditure, that there are all kinds of considerations to be taken into account, and that, in view of the fact that there is widespread unemployment, the balance is in favour of going on with the scheme. That, I think, is a fair presentation of the Minister's case. If one is to assume that the state of employment is going to be improved, then the balance would be tipped on the other side and the decision would be not to proceed with the scheme.

Following the point raised by Deputy Egan, as to the question which would arise when the Minister's proposal regarding the proportion of local expenditure is brought forward, it may be said that we may have difficulties with one council or another, and there may be objections from those people who think that their lands, at any rate, are not going to be benefited. Again, the balance may be tipped against the scheme and the prejudices apparent in the Minister's speech against the scheme as an economic proposition would prevail and there would be no scheme at all. I would like to know whether the new Deputy for Leix and Offaly—Deputy Dwyer, whom we welcome—has had any definite assurances on this point. We know that the proposals put forward during the election were definite and specific and that "the Government have determined to sanction a grant of £500,000 and a long-term loan of £500,000." I think the Minister should give some information regarding the terms of this loan and the amounts to be levied against the locality. It would remove many doubts and solve some problems as to whether the scheme is still in the hesitation period—whether there has been a definite decision on the part of the Ministry that they will bring in a scheme, whether the scheme will involve a certain charge on local authorities which will be mandatory, whether, if the local authorities approve or not, the scheme will go on, or whether it is all dependent on the reception of the scheme by the local authorities. These, I think, are matters about which the Minister could give us some information so that the doubts raised in his speech yesterday will be dispelled and we will know what exactly is the policy of the Government in regard to this proposal.

Mr. BLYTHE

I shall try to be as clear and definite as I can. Professor Meyer Peter, last March, produced a report with an estimate of £1,130,000 as the cost of the scheme. The Government, after some hesitation and with some difficult, decided that in all the circumstances the scheme should go on, and they were prepared to stand for a policy of paying half the cost out of the National Exchequer. There has been no alteration whatever in that regard. It is still the policy of the Government to go on with the scheme and to stand here in the Dáil for the payment of half the cost out of the National Exchequer. The scheme, however, is not, strictly speaking, economic and even half the cost will leave a very heavy charge on the benefited lands and the surrounding areas. It is most desirable, if it can be done without injuring seriously the utility of the scheme, that the cost should be reduced by any possible elimination of the works. Professor Meyer Peter's scheme as presented to the Government was a general scheme and detailed working out of it was necessary. In that detailed working out we tried to reduce the cost by any eliminations that fulfilled the conditions that I set out. We do not know at present, therefore, exactly what the cost of the scheme will be. If on the detailed working out it would appear that it could not be done except at a greater cost than the estimate of course we would have to reconsider the situation. That does not arise. But at how much less could it be done? We cannot even say exactly how the cost will be distributed, as between the benefited lands and the other people in the areas, until we have had the reports of the land valuers and until we can have a fairly definite estimate of what the benefit to the particular lands drained will be, because the scheme is that the State should contribute half the cost and that the other half should be borne by the benefited lands and by the rates of a certain area. The benefited lands would be charged up to the land-valuer's estimates of the benefits received. The remainder of that half of the cost of the scheme will have to be contributed from the rates of the counties, chiefly Leix, Offaly, Kildare and something from Carlow. Until we have actually decided the works to be done it will not be possible to fix the proportion as between these different counties. So that until the work for which this Vote is being asked, and which is now proceeding, has reached completion, or an advanced stage, we cannot give any details that would be of use to the people of the district.

As I said, I unfortunately regard the depression in regard to unemployment as something that will not pass away rapidly. If there was no unemployment, or no unemployment worth talking about, I for one would certainly be against going on with this scheme. But I have not the least anticipation that between now and the completion of the work a condition will be reached in regard to unemployment that will make it desirable not to proceed, so that the influence of unemployment on whether or not we will go on is an influence that, so far as all practical considerations are concerned, will not vary. The scheme will go on. With regard to the local authorities, it might well be that the local authorities, when we have full and absolutely definite figures that we can put up to them, will object to going on. You had the Carlow County Council passing a resolution on the 12th May, 1925, protesting against the catchment area being the area of charge, and stating that the scheme should be a State charge.

Mr. E. DOYLE

They do not represent the opinions of the people in the area.

Mr. BLYTHE

Quite. I was coming to that. You have the Leix County Council suggesting that two-thirds should be borne by the benefited lands and one-third by the catchment area.

Mr. DAVIN

Is that not the basis of the negotiations?

Mr. BLYTHE

Then we had Senator MacEvoy with a deputation on, I think, the 3rd May, 1924, stating that pound for pound would be paid. We have Deputy Davin to-day talking about a possible charge of 6d. or 7d. If people were willing to do that, I think it would suffice.

Mr. COLOHAN

Has the Minister any note of my proposal, that the Government should pay two-thirds of the cost and the affected areas one-third?

Mr. BLYTHE

That would not be accepted.

Mr. DAVIN

The figures 6d. or 7d. that are used were the figures given to me by the Minister for Education, Deputy Professor O'Sullivan, in writing.

Mr. BLYTHE

I know. These are figures that I have seen before. They are tentative figures. If the areas were willing to pay anything like that, of course it would be sufficient. You have Deputy Colohan saying that the local people, including the benefited lands, I presume, should only pay one-third of the cost, so that I anticipate that when the final figures are issued showing how much will be contributed by the State, how much will be charged to the benefited lands, and how much will be charged to the rates, a good deal of controversy will arise, and it is quite possible that a particular area will say that it would not go on, that it would prefer the scheme not to be proceeded with. Then a decision would have to be taken as to whether or not the Government will stand for anything but for putting certain provisions into legislation to compel the payment of local contributions. The question as to whether the local authorities are to have a voice about going on or not has not yet been definitely decided. It may be that we will have to deprive them of a voice, because I think that even if they wanted it, and even if they were prepared to pay all that they were asked to pay, they would begin by refusing to go on in the hope of reducing it. I would anticipate difficulties from the local authorities. This is just the one point of doubt in regard to the scheme as it exists at present, that is, whether the Government will decide to stand for a policy of not paying attention to the wishes of the local authorities.

Mr. DAVIN

It would not be the first time.

Mr. BLYTHE

A decision has not been definitely taken on that point.

Mr. P. EGAN

Might I ask the Minister if I am right in interpreting the position, that this whole question of the fixing of the area of charge and the agreement with the councils must be definitely settled before the work commences?

Mr. BLYTHE

Well, yes. That would not prevent certain preliminary work being done by the Government. It would not be a very costly thing and it would do some little good to the river. Before the Bill is passed, and before the main work is undertaken, we must have some decision in regard to the local contribution. That can be done by publishing our proposals and by asking the councils to agree to pay and to accept the scheme, or it may be done simply by giving statutory force to the scheme and by requesting the councils to pay us, in the same way as they were requested to pay the present 6d. rate. The Executive Council when it considered this matter did not feel that it would be justified in asking the people of Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Louth, and Dublin to pay for more than half the cost of the scheme. Whatever way the decision is arrived at we do not propose that the Exchequer and the general taxpayer shall be charged more than half of the cost, and our view is that it is not a matter of the catchment area either. We would simply have to take the counties which will be most benefited, in addition to what the charge will be on the benefited lands, and to have a rate struck for these particular counties.

I could not tell Deputy Davin how many men will be required this year on preliminary works. At any rate that work must be pending decisions as to the exact form of the scheme, and as to the precise work that is to be done in connection with the scheme, somewhat limited in character, just the work that can be done without involving expenditure that may, in the event of subsequent decisions, prove useless. But if we did not spend £50,000 or any portion of it last year on the Barrow, at any rate we spent a considerable sum in various parts of the country on drainage work, and we had at a time as many as 2,700 men employed on drainage work last summer. But the money that might have gone, had there not been other difficulties, towards a start on the Barrow was spent on other drainage work. I do not know whether it would be possible to arrange that the people who are to be employed should be from the area concerned. I think that that might be difficult to arrange. Undoubtedly the work will have to be carried out under some form of contract, and I am sure it would not be possible to tie the contractors down to the local areas.

Mr. DAVIN

Is it not fair that the money that will be collected from the locality, wherever the area may be, should, as far as possible, go back to that area?

Mr. BLYTHE

I think, particularly as there will be a substantial local contribution, that so far as possible local unemployment should be the unemployment to be relieved. Most of the plans that existed were to some extent a source of difficulty for the Government. We had two or three different plans before us, conflicting plans, plans based on entirely different conceptions of what should be done. We had one plan which was based on excavation, depending on the deepening and broadening of the channel. We had another plan which depended on embankments. We had some plans providing for a considerable amount of work below Athy. We had certain plans for other schemes which contemplated practically no work below Athy, and really the multitude of plans, and the conflicts that existed in the partially completed plans that we had, were a source of difficulty rather than of help, and it was because we had all these conflicting and incomplete proposals that we had to call in Professor Meyer Peter and get a scheme drawn up. It was a very striking thing that, with all the discussions that have gone on, previous preparations had been of a very slipshod character in some respects. One thing was that there had been no flow measures of the river in the areas about which discussion had been going on. Gauges had never been set up to show what the flow of the river actually was, and because the scheme is not strictly economic it is all the more necessary to be careful to have it done in the least costly way possible. Since the Government came to a decision to go on no time has been lost, but we certainly could not pick out at random some of the papers in existence in connection with it and proceed to work on them without examination or elaboration.

Mr. COLOHAN

Could the Minister say in connection with the scheme it has been decided to go on with now, whether any preliminary work could be done in the deepening and widening of the channels? That is work that must obviously be done, no matter what the scheme may be. The tributaries could be widened and sunk. Work of that kind would not interfere with any general scheme for the River Barrow. If the work that I suggest were undertaken it would give employment to a considerable number of men.

Mr. BLYTHE

That is contrary to what should be done in drainage work. Anything that is to be done would have to be done on the main river. What the Deputy suggests is the wrong method of doing drainage work. Of course, there might be certain shallow places that could be deepened, and work might be found in the way of pulling up trees and removing other obstructions.

Mr. COLOHAN

That is the kind of work I mean.

Mr. DAVIN

Is the Minister satisfied that the number of engineers provided for in this Supplementary Estimate is sufficient to enable the preliminary work to be carried out in an expeditious manner? Supposing the charge is on two counties, I would like to know from the Minister, in the case of South Leix and South Offaly where there is a river that has to be drained at great expense to a large number of ratepayers in both areas, if these people, even though they get no benefit from the Barrow scheme, will be liable for the charges in connection with it, in addition to what they have to pay at present for drainage work.

Mr. BLYTHE

That is liable to happen in connection with work which County Councils carry out. As regards the other point raised by the Deputy, more people can be got and will be got as they are required. The actual staff shown is not a detailed staff. For instance, land valuers have been got since, and other people will be employed as required.

Mr. CONLAN

Some time ago the Minister for Justice made a speech, I think in the Leix area, in the course of which he stated that the Government would look to the local people for a fair contribution of the cost of the Barrow drainage. I think everyone is in accord with that, and I do not think that the local people want to escape from paying a fair contribution. The difficulty is to ascertain, what is a fair contribution. I think the Minister would be well advised if he were to set up special machinery to make local inquiries both as to the area of land likely to be benefited, and the degree in which any particular area will be benefited. That is preliminary work that would need to be very carefully done. I think the Minister would be very illadvised in proceeding in a dictatorial way in sending down a demand to the local bodies for the contribution of a certain amount of money. I think if he proceeds in that manner, it will certainly tend to defeat the object in view.

Mr. BLYTHE

The inquiries that the Deputy refers to, in connection with the area benefited and the amount of benefit, are proceeding. As a matter of fact, until we get the details in connection with them we cannot get much further.

With reference to the 1916 Memorial, perhaps, as some one indicated, it is wrong to talk about "The 1916 Memorial." It is "A 1916 Memorial" in regard to which certain steps were taken a very long time ago, and what is now proposed simply is that the site be provided and the Memorial set up. The Memorial is in the form of a symbolic group: a woman supporting a dying or wounded soldier.

General MULCAHY

Are we to understand from the Minister that the Executive Council have irrevocably selected the site in Glasnevin Cemetery?

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes, I think I may say that. The discussions that have gone on with Mr. Shorter have been on that basis.

Vote put and agreed to.