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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 1926

Vol. 14 No. 14

QUESTION ON ADJOURNMENT—RELIEF OF DISTRESS.

Motion made and question proposed: "That the Dáil do now adjourn."

I have given notice that I would raise on the adjournment the question of the relief of distress due to unemployment. That question is one which probably would be better discussed on a formal motion, but the circumstances that have been forced on the public mind rather necessitate dealing with the matter at the first opportunity. I feel that the precedent which has been made in respect to the Dublin Union may be the initiation of a new policy which may eventually apply to the whole country. I want to make certain representations with regard to this method of dealing with distress due to unemployment. The provisions of Section 13 of the Local Government Act, 1908, which empower the Minister to authorise the local authority, that is, the workhouse authority, to grant relief to any person outside the workhouse in cases of exceptional distress, have been put into operation and the Commissioners have been empowered by an Order of the Minister to that effect. I think it is understood that the section was devised for what may be called, emergency cases, cases of distress arising out of unexpected calamities, such, for instance, as floods. While I have no objection to stretching the intentions of the Act to cover any case, I want to argue that the method of dealing with distress due to unemployment by means of a special form of outdoor relief is quite inadequate and undesirable as a continuous procedure. It is being used, of course, to fill a certain gap which the failure of the Unemployment Insurance Acts has left. I think it is a most unsatisfactory substitute for dealing with a problem under the Unemployment Insurance Acts. I would ask Deputies to put themselves in the position of a workman who has endeavoured to keep himself decently and to retain his self-respect, who has been unemployed for a long time, who has been obliged to sell any reserves that he had, who has utilised all his insurance benefits, either in his own trade tontine society or unemployment insurance, and who is left in a position of distress. The position that has been taken by the Government to meet that extraordinary distress is the provision of relief by means of food tickets, orders upon grocers, received from workhouse officials. I want to argue that it is anything but a satisfactory method of dealing with this problem of poverty and distress due to unemployment. I want to say, for fear of misapprehension, that I am not criticising adversely the method of administration so far as it has yet been practised. A few days only have elapsed, and, so far as I can gather from enquiries, the method of administration has been careful and sympathetic. No harassing enquiries have been made, and fair and sympathetic methods have been adopted in the treatment of cases.

The unemployed man, however, who has grown up with a feeling of revulsion at having to seek the aid of the poor law, if he is obliged to follow this method of obtaining relief, feels that it is a distinct break with his traditions of decency and independence. Whether we can approve of it or not on logical grounds, the revulsion against poor law relief applies to many people, and it is only after they have sunk somewhat in their own estimation that they are willing to go to that stage and apply for poor law relief. Many decent people do it, but they feel that it is a break with decency, and they would rather not be forced to do it, and many people would suffer deprivation rather than seek relief in this way. I think that is common ground. It has been the argument used for many years in opposition to the whole system of poor law relief, but it is now being applied in Dublin as a substitute for an extension of unemployment insurance. As I said, I think that this is a very bad substitute, and I am urging that the distribution of assistance or relief, however small, however inadequate it may be, is better done through the machinery of the Labour Exchanges than through the machinery of the poor law unions. Even if it became necessary to require the assistance of those who had been hitherto the workhouse authorities, it would be better to have that assistance so that the work of relief should be done through the Labour Exchanges rather than by food tickets. The food ticket arrangement, as distinct from a cash provision, again is objected to, and I think with good reason. While not logical, it is sound and has its roots in the mentality of people. Men do not like to go to their grocer or other shopkeeper and advertise the fact through that shopkeeper that they have got this relief through the poor law. The method of treating this distress through unemployment by means of the poor law in this respect also is faulty and liable, I think, in the long run, to reach the wrong people. The objection is made— I do not lay special stress upon it— that in many cases the most urgent need is not food, but clothing, or perhaps to meet a demand for rent to escape eviction. Cash payments can do that; food tickets cannot do it. As I say, I do not lay special stress upon that because I think the landlord should not be the first to be paid and that the food and clothing requirements should have prior claim.

But there is another aspect of this which does not touch the individual being assisted, but does touch the question of local responsibility: I mean the responsibility of the rates for this added burden. The problem of unemployment that we are dealing with is clearly not a local problem; it is not a problem which the local ratepayer is or should be considered to be specially responsible for, and the burden, which may amount to threepence in the pound in any year under the Act, should not be borne through the rates at all, but as a charge which should be laid upon a central national fund, whatever that fund might be. I want to deal with this case, on this occasion at any rate, clearly as a matter of argument as to the wisdom of dealing with this distress due to unemployment through the Poor Law administration, and to urge upon the Minister, and Ministers, that they should proceed at the earliest possible moment to make provision for dealing with the question through insurance and the insurance system, rather than through Poor Law relief, and as early and as effectively as possible to provide work, or opportunities for work, of a constructive, remunerative character for the people who are able and willing to work. But I want specially to stress the fact that if you are going to trust the Poor Law system for dealing with this matter you will find eventually that you are hurting the morale of the men and women concerned, that very many of those who are most needing will be deterred from accepting relief through this system, and that you are re-establishing what it was once thought to be a desirable thing to abolish, the old system of Poor Law administration. I will leave it at that, with the plea that Ministers should take this question into consideration at the earliest possible date and introduce legislation, if legislation is necessary, as I presume it is, to enable benefits to be given through the insurance machinery.

I do not know how far I am concerned with this matter. Deputy Johnson has enunciated certain theories which would be all very well if we were living in a Utopian State. We are all agreed that we would like to give relief, where it is absolutely necessary to give it, in a way that would not wound the pride or the feelings of decency of those being relieved, but we are not living in an ideal world.

Was the Minister ever a member of Sinn Fein?

I was. I do not see what that has to do with this question.

Do you not?

We must remember that when we give relief we do so at the expense of somebody else. We have not got a common fund, a great national fund, that could be called upon without treading on anybody's corns. The country at present, as we hear from the Press and from all directions, is pretty heavily taxed, and we can only give relief to people oftentimes by drawing on the very narrow resources of people who are, or are assumed to be, in better circumstances. This is a case of exceptional distress, and we have availed of the statute to give this relief. I consider that in the circumstances it is the best possible means of giving relief, having regard to the fact that the resources of the taxpayer are unlimited. Undoubtedly the fact that relief is being given in kind acts as a deterrent, but in most cases it acts as a deterrent to undesirables seeking relief. Money may be put to a great many good uses, such as paying rent, but it also can be put to a great many bad uses. We know that very often money given in this way can be spent in publichouses, etc., and by giving food we ensure that at all events nobody is going to die of hunger, and nobody who is reduced to that condition need have any scruples and need feel in any way embarrassed in coming forward for this relief. On such short notice I am not in a position to deal any further with the Deputy's motion.

I would like to say a word or two on the line taken by Deputy Johnson. The Minister for Local Government has just reminded us that we have not a Utopia here. Deputy Johnson made an interjection to ask the Minister if he was ever a member of the Sinn Fein Party. Of course, he said that he was. I know and Deputy Johnson knows that he was. I happen to have been a member of that Party also. I know that one of the principal planks in the Sinn Fein platform which was used on every occasion, and at every opportunity that presented itself, was a condemnation of the poor law system as a whole. When Dáil Eireann was brought into being in January or February, 1919, one of the first acts it did was to instruct President Cosgrave, who at that time was Minister for Local Government, to frame some kind of a scheme which would do away with workhouses as such: some kind of a scheme to try and get the people away from what was considered to be a very degenerate and demoralising system. If the Minister for Local Government considers that it is Utopian merely to get away from that, I am sorry for his mentality, and am not prepared to go the same road that he proposes.

The Minister mentioned, in the course of his statement, that the country was crying out against expense and that the Government cannot be expected to have a general fund here to relieve everyone and everything. I think the Minister and every Deputy in the House will agree that the Government are in a far better position to deal with that situation than the local ratepayers. It is all very well to talk about and to condemn high expenditure, to turn your ear to the statements made in the Press day after day about expenditure and then to throw the burden on the ratepayers in some particular area. As Deputy Johnson has already pointed out, it is absolutely impossible for local bodies to take on anything more than they have at the moment. In fact, as Deputy Heffernan pointed out to-day, local authorities are at their wits' ends to try and economise. The financial condition of local authorities has become so top heavy that to-day it is a regular night-mare with them to consider any policy which could deal adequately with the unemployment problems. I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce will have to get back to the unemployment insurance system as it prevailed prior to the last Act being passed. I think he will agree with me that there are very few people in receipt of unemployment benefit to-day, and that it was a very inopportune time for him to bring in the last Bill.

If we were living in normal times it would be all very well to go back to the Unemployment Insurance Act as we knew it when it was introduced about 1912 or so. To expect people to have sufficient contributions to their credit to entitle them to unemployment benefit as such, following the abnormal times through which the workers of this country have passed during the last four or five years, is asking too much altogether. The position is a desperate one and will require a remedy which may not be at all in keeping with the desires of all the people who are pleased to call themselves taxpayers in this country. Sooner or later the Government will have to realise their responsibilities to the unemployed. I want to give the Government due credit for putting by a certain amount of money each year for the relief of unemployment, but that is really only tinkering with the question. The last relief Vote which the Government brought in is not, to my mind, going to serve a very useful purpose, either as regards relieving unemployment or getting effective work done, because it is surrounded by conditions which will permit local authorities to waste the money placed at their disposal. In that connection, I hope the Minister for Finance will agree with the suggestions made from these benches a week ago, that a longer time be given to enable local authorities to spend the money that is being given by way of grant.

I do not think the Minister for Local Government has answered to any extent the arguments put forward by Deputy Johnson. It is all very well for the Minister to come here and say that he received very little notice of this question. I do not think it is necessary for him or for any other Minister to receive notice of the huge problem that confronts this country so far as unemployment is concerned. They have been tinkering with it for the last four or five years, and I suggest to the Government that they ought seriously to consider the situation at this, the beginning of the new financial year, in a way that will tend to relieve the distress that undoubtedly prevails amongst thousands of families in this country.

I wish to support the case made by Deputy Johnson. I was really astonished at the brusque, shall I say, the almost savage way, in which the Minister endeavoured to brush aside the case made by Deputy Johnson. The Minister's speech was a short one. He wound up by telling the Deputy that he is not prepared to do anything more than he has already done in the way of issuing food tickets to those who would much prefer work and pay. It is all very fine for the Minister to say that if cash were given it would find its way into the public houses. I say that is a slur on, and an insult to, the Dublin working men—to think that the value of a food ticket, if given in cash, would find its way into the public house while a man's family was hungry and while the landlord or his representative was hammering at the door with a notice to quit. To say the least of it, the speech made by the Minister was astonishing.

The giving of food tickets reminds one of the past, when we used to listen to Sinn Fein speeches condemning workhouses and the workhouse system and all that they stood for. In some of the orders quite recently, whether it was printed inadvertently in the newspapers or not I do not know—issued by his Department—I will not say whether his Department or the newspapers were responsible—the word "workhouse" appeared on three separate occasions in connection with these food tickets. The new name which has been given to the poor law was not applied when you were dealing with the food tickets.

When Deputy Johnson brought this matter forward on a former occasion I stated that the Government were only dealing with the fringe of the question so far as the Dublin unemployed were concerned. We have to-day many decent workmen who earned good wages in the past walking the streets of Dublin unemployed. They are idle through no fault of their own. As a class they look on the offer of the Government to give them food tickets as degrading. They feel that they are not trusted with the few shillings that would go to pay the landlord to save them from eviction from their little rooms. I say on behalf of the Dublin workingmen that they should get this cash which is so badly needed by them. I say, too, that not one-half per cent. of it would find its way into the publichouses if given. I protest strongly against the insinuations made by the Minister. It is unworthy of the Minister to make such a statement when it is remembered that the police courts are busy for practically three hours every day listening to landlords or their representatives seeking ejectment orders against their tenants for small sums due for rent.

Within the last week I was in the police courts listening to cases. A mother with a large family, in one case, for the sake of 21/-, was about to be evicted. This is the class that we ask you to give a little money to, and not food which is bringing you back one hundred years when men were offered crumbs and not work. Go to the police courts and you will see the number of cases in which notices have been served on good-class people that never owed any money until this unfortunate state of affairs arose in the country, when they have been unable to get sufficient money to keep themselves and their families. The Minister has been almost flippant in his dealings with Deputy Johnson's motion. Something more definite will have to be done. The Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce will have to put their heads together and devise some means of giving the Dublin unemployed a chance to pay their way.

I wish to support Deputy Johnson in this matter. It is the duty of the Minister to provide for unemployment during the coming year. As he has stated, local authorities out of their funds cannot meet demands for relief or home help as it is more politely called. We have representatives in Kildare and I do not know whether they should be called representatives in the true sense of the word. Some of them advocated a return to the old union principle. They say that no one should get relief unless he goes into the union. That is not a nice thing for a representative to say. We have others who suggested that home help recipients should be listed, and that these lists should be sent to the Civic Guard barracks throughout the country. I hope if any of those suggestions come up from the Co. Kildare that the Minister will deal with them in the way that they ought to be dealt with. Sinn Féin, as I understand it, always stood for the abolition of the English poor law system in order to take away the brand of pauper from the poor. It seems now that the Minister is trying to brand the workers as paupers. He is treading on dangerous ground if that is to be the policy of his Government. As to remedies, I think the Minister for Industry and Commerce ought to bring in a new amending Unemployment Benefit Bill. I cannot see why he cannot extend those Acts further so that he will touch on other workers including tradesmen of various kinds.

Another thing I should like to suggest is that if the 1924 Drainage Maintenance Act is to be enforced throughout the country I think many useful schemes of work could be carried out which would give work in the rural districts. Contrary to what some people think, there is great unemployment in the rural districts. We heard to-day that the 1925 Arterial Drainage Act will not be put into operation for about 18 months. When that Act was passing through the House we all had high hopes that it would relieve unemployment. It seems we were destined to further disillusionment. I cannot see why a certain number of schemes cannot be tackled under the 1925 Act. There is no use in saying that you have got to get levels taken and all that sort of thing. Two or three competent engineers could start the work inside a month. It is merely a repetition of the promises made here a long time ago as to the Barrow Drainage. Those smaller schemes do not require much engineering ability at all. Anyone can walk along and see where widening and deepening are required. You do not want to be an eminent engineer to see where a river is choked up. Does the Government intend to tackle the trunk road scheme? Surely they do not intend to let the workers die of hunger? Local authorities cannot provide food. The land is lying waste and the farmers will not till it. They believe that by divine right they are the owners of the land and that they have no responsibilities to the remainder at all.

They have responsibilities to themselves at present which they cannot discharge.

If you are going to turn labour against all forms of Constitutional Government go on the way you are going.

I wish to refer to a matter which has been touched upon by Deputy Corish in his remarks here to-night. Not alone does the Minister in his reply show that he has no sympathy whatsoever for people who are in a position of destitution and semi-starvation to-day but his speech seems to show, as well as the speeches of other Ministers show, that he is out of all touch with the position in the country at present. In my constituency the position appears to be one of creeping paralysis over the whole industrial and agricultural position. Some time ago a mill was burned at Belmont. Another mill was closed down at Clara. The Wolfhill Mine was closed. I have heard to-day that a quarry works employing about 200 men in the south of my constituency will close down on 20th March. I have a wire here from a local clergyman stating that unless works, for which a grant was provided, are completed, by 31st March, 135 men will be thrown out of work. That is the position with regard to five areas in my constituency involving 1,000 workers and their dependants. Not only are the Ministers not prepared to deal with the district but they are not prepared to intervene in the position of the unemployed to-day.

Deputy Corish made an appeal to the Minister that the grants which were provided for useful work should not be terminated by the 31st March. I realise there is a certain technical difficulty about the matter, but we could have an assurance from the Minister that for the unexpended portion of the money a supplementary estimate would be introduced before the 31st March, making it possible to carry out and complete the works. So the money that has been set aside for the completion of those works could be spent. I think we are entitled to some assurance from the Minister on questions of that kind, because surely the Minister does not think that members of this House would be so foolish as to refuse the revoting of these monies. One has to give facts about particular areas. In the Wolfhill area, where the mine was closed down, roughly 200 men were thrown out of work. A road scheme was sanctioned for a couple of weeks which gave employment to 70 men. That scheme was practically completed last Saturday, but there is no hope of getting the additional money to complete the work which the county surveyor intended to carry out. He asked for a certain amount of money but did not receive what he asked for. Forty-two men have been thrown on the rates as a result. I know the position of the ratepayers who are all working farmers, but they are now in a rather bankrupt condition and are not able to provide the money out of local rates for bolstering up the position created by men being thrown out of work and who are suffering starvation. Deputy Colohan hit the nail on the head when he said if the Ministers charged with the responsibility of good government in the country and of looking after the people, continued to allow the present conditions to continue they would be faced with a situation with which even the army and police would not be able to cope. This time twelve months Deputy Mrs. Collins-O'Driscoll told us that 20 millions of money would be borrowed, and at a low rate of interest, if Deputy Leonard and another Deputy were returned at that time. We have not heard a word since, except a little in Leix and Offaly, about the 20 million pounds which would be found if Deputy Leonard was returned. He is not present here to-night, but if he was he might give some explanation as to why he has not got that money.

As only one of the two candidates was returned, so he could only have got ten millions.

Deputy Corish is right, but even the ten millions might have been borrowed for drainage works, building houses and making trunk roads. If all the schemes that we were promised were put in hands, especially the drainage schemes, there would be plenty of work which would at least partly relieve the situation with which we are confronted to-day. I had hoped that many drainage schemes would be put under way as a result of the Drainage Act, 1925. From the statement made by the Minister for Finance there is no hope for that in the coming year. The Minister will probably have a chance of making his position clear. We know the state of the people. To say that in my constituency there are thousands of people in distress would not be an exaggeration. Unless the Government decide now to face the position that confronts them, later on they will not be able to cope with it even with the Civic Guards and soldiers.

Under the Standing Order, when a Deputy has given notice that he will raise a matter on the adjournment, the debate on that matter continues for half an hour after the time fixed for the adjournment. When the business on the Order Paper has concluded before 8.30 p.m. the practice established has been to allow half an hour to Deputies who wish to speak on the question, and then take the Minister's reply. If the Deputy speaks now, it will be impossible for the Minister to reply.

In view of that I give way to the Minister.

It has been suggested that there has been a return to the Poor Law Union system, and that that is a deliberate and definite policy. The question has been raised, is it desirable to return to that system rather than extend insurance benefits? That does not bear examination. What has happened is that a certain local authority applied to the Minister for Local Government asking for certain powers with regard to the issue of food tickets. Deputy Byrne says that he wanted it placarded throughout Dublin that the Minister should have refused these, that there should be no food tickets, but that there should be insurance benefits instead. There has been talk about the degradation of the Poor Law system. No one is going back to it as a system. but if people say that if a system is abhorrent for normal times that something which might have the same taint about it should not be used in an emergency, then I cannot agree. We have the other principle put forward by Deputy Colohan, and I think Deputy Corish, that the local authorities can do nothing. Why not? They can raise money—they can increase the rates if they want to do so.

A LABOUR DEPUTY

The Minister for Local Government will not allow it.

Apart from what the Minister for Local Government would allow them to do, the fact is that people do not want to put anything on the rates but depend on the central government. If there is any reason to say the local authorities can do nothing, dismayed as I am by the Press for the last three weeks, then nothing can be done by the central government. Deputy Corish says very few people are seeking unemployment insurance at the moment.

Comparatively few.

I do not believe the figure has changed by 1,000 in the last three weeks, and the figure has not gone below the figure that I thought it was likely to go below. When I was speaking here last year I agreed with Deputy Corish that there would be a big drop. I agreed to that proposition of the Deputy, because I thought with him that there was little work to be got, and that when the maximum period had elapsed there would be a tremendous fall. That, in fact, did not occur. All the evidence that has accumulated since showed there was work to be got through the country. What has happened is that people have gone to work intermittently, and very few people have been affected by the maximum regulation. With regard to the Deputy's reference to an inopportune time for legislation, opportuneness had to be judged from various circumstances. As far as the unemployment insurance benefit is concerned there was this point, that any further increase on the fund would make it bankrupt. I made it clear that there could be no further demands on the unemployment insurance fund, and the position would have to be met through other means—it might be through a Vote to the Labour Exchanges, it might be anything decided upon, but there was going to be no extension of the insurance benefit.

Deputy Byrne has been very severe on the Minister for Local Government for his "savage speech." There should be some relation between epithets of that kind and the facts. The Deputy's attitude in matters like this seems to me to be best described by a passage from a work of Dickens, which runs: "Mr. Micawber conjured me to observe that if a man had £20 a year for his income and spent £19 19s. 6d. he would be happy, but that if he spent £20 1s. 0d. he would be miserable,"— then comes the most pertinent part of the quotation—"after which he borrowed a shilling of me for porter and cheered up." That is like Deputy Byrne's attitude in public life as I have seen it here. He criticises taxation, and talks about having a good financial system, and having things properly adjusted, and then he will borrow a little for—if I say porter I hope he will not misunderstand me, or think that I am casting a slur on his constituents. The Deputy condemned the workhouse system. The word "workhouse" crept into Deputy Johnson's speech this evening, because he was, I presume, quoting from a particular section of the old 1898 Act. Surely there is nothing in the way of "atmosphere" or "tendency" to be arrived at by fastening on words. The Deputy then came with the statement he has made so often in this House about men who are "walking the streets of Dublin to-day through no fault of their own." I do not deny that—that there are men walking the streets of Dublin to-day through no fault of their own. But there are a considerable number of men walking the streets of Dublin to-day through their own fault, by reason of their actions, and by reason of what people—I am speaking of work-people and I am not making any political reference— have done. They have made the burden almost intolerable on people who are anxious to work—and anxious to work without acting, with regard to terms and conditions of work, as if this country was in an absolutely normal condition with regard to unemployment.

A question was raised by Deputy Colohan and by Deputy Corish, and, I think, by Deputy Davin, as to these relief moneys. Fears were expressed that these schemes may come to an end because the money may not be expended before the end of the financial year. You may take the assurance of the Minister for Finance, through me, that that technical objection is not going to be allowed to overpower the schemes. I do not say that every scheme not completed is going to have money provided so that it may be completed, but I say that on the technical ground that the money has not been spent before the end of the financial year, the scheme is not going to be overpowered. The money may be surrendered, but it will be re-voted.

Will that be for the completion of schemes already sanctioned?

For the completion of schemes already sanctioned. The estimate will be before the Deputy some of these days, and he will see that provided for. I am not giving any undertaking with regard to the amount, nor do I say that the estimate will cover everything.

Will the Minister give an assurance that if work is proceeded with by the local authority, as far as possible, that work will not be interrupted because of the money not being expended within the year?

I think schemes can be entered upon without the fear that they will be interrupted by reason of the money not being expended within the year.

That is the only assurance that is wanted.

That assurance can be given. I think Deputy Davin introduced a bad example when he talked of Wolfhill—a very bad example. I do not know if we should argue that at the moment. May I end on this note: we have got threats now from two persons about our responsibilities, and what is going to happen if we treat our responsibilities in the way we are apparently treating them at present?

What about your unfulfilled promises?

That will get us back to the Barrow, which is the main example of promises alleged to be unfulfilled.

That will be left out until the next election.

Until the local authorities adjust themselves to the conditions under which the work can be carried out and until the local authorities and the Deputies live up to the promises they made through deputations with regard to the contributions to be paid. We have had threats about our responsibilities; we have been told that the end of it is going to be that work-people will lose all faith in responsible government; we are going to have war and rumblings of war. That has been tried already and tried by people who probably were better organised for that sort of game.

And the result was none too happy for those who attempted it, nor is the resulting state now very happy even for people who were not in it.

There is a difference between then and now.

If the Deputy really thinks that that is an answer, let him tot up what has been done and find out if there was a will to do more if there had been the resources. Let him find out how the resources were wasted. Let him enter on that other path and find the result.

Desperate men do not reason.

Desperate men ought to be led towards reason.

They do not reason and they will be offended by the Minister's tone.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m.

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