Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 17

VOTE 33—GENERAL PRISONS BOARD.

The PRESIDENT

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £96,850 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun an chaiteachais mar gheall ar Bhord Generálta na bPríosún agus na dTeaghlachaisí fé n-a smacht, Clárú na Síor-chuirptheach, agus coinneáil-suas na nGealt gCiurpthe a coinneáil in Ospidéil Mheabhar-Ghalar Cheanntair. (17 agus 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 agus 35 Vict., c. 112, a. 6; 40 agus 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 agus 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 agus 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. VII., c. 17, a. 3; 8 Edw. VII., c. 59; agus 4 agus 5 Geo. V., c. 58.)

That a sum not exceeding £96,850 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the expenses of the General Prisons Board and the Establishments under their Control, the Registration of Habitual Criminals and the Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics confined in District Mental Hospitals. (17 and 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 and 35 Vict., c. 112, s. 6; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 and 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 and 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. VII., c. 17, s. 3; 8 Edw. VII., c. 59; and 4 and 5 Geo. V., c. 58.)

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. O'Higgins)

The Estimate for the current financial year shows a reduction on that for last year of £12,781. Deputies will note that for four or five years past there has been a steady reduction in this Vote. There is, of course, an obvious explanation of that, that owing to the civil war and the number of prisoners in the years 1922, 1923 and 1924, the Vote was heavier, and that also, as an indirect consequence of the hospitality extended to those prisoners, the repair vote for the prisons for some time after was also heavier. The actual expenditure in the year 1922-23 was £200,554; in 1923-24 it was £189,570; in 1924-25 it was £145,923, and last year the estimate was £157,631. This year the estimate is £144,850. Maintained under this Vote there are eight prisons and the Borstal Institution at Clonmel. The daily average of prisoners in the local prisons has dropped now to quite a small number. It would not be more than between 30 or 40 for Dundalk; probably between 40 and 50 for Galway, and something upwards of 50 for Waterford and Limerick. But as long as those prisons are there, it is necessary to maintain in connection with them a governor, a medical officer, chaplains, and a sufficient staff of warders. The question of a possible reduction in the number of prisons has been gone into rather carefully, and the considerations which weighed against any departure of that kind have been, firstly, the population of the Free State is scattered, the railway facilities not always convenient, and the hardship of conveying prisoners long distances in winter and in inclement weather is obvious.

It would be necessary to put against whatever saving would be achieved in establishment charges the cost of conveyance of prisoners, and the cost of escort on every such occasion in the case of remands for short periods, and for committals for trial. It would be difficult for prisoners to arrange for their defence if they were sent far from their friends and legal advisers. That is one of the points that has been urged against the reduction in the number of prisons before several Prison Commissions. Then there is the problem of the short sentence prisoner. Prisoners are sometimes sentenced to quite short periods, such as a week or a fortnight, and sometimes as an alternative to the payment of a fine. It is quite natural and proper that justices would consider the hardship and expense of sending prisoners a long distance for short terms, and might not sentence to imprisonment in the absence of some reasonably convenient prison to which the prisoner would be sent. It is felt that if you had that state of affairs there would arise from it immunity, or comparative immunity, for the lesser infractions of the law. Those most skilled in matters of this kind are of opinion that it is through the lesser infractions of the law people graduate to more serious crime. Only one remedy has suggested itself so far for short sentences and for short remands, and that would be police lockups through the country. In the Prison Act of 1877 power to embark on that line was provided, but it was never in fact acted upon, and that course was opposed very vigorously and strenuously by persons who gave evidence before a Commission on Prisons.

We have come to the conclusion, at present at any rate, that there is very little room for further reduction in prison establishments. At the same time we would look towards reduction whenever it is considered feasible. Taking the sub-heads in order: sub-head A for salaries, wages and allowances is a total of £8,637, a reduction of £191 as compared with the provision made for 1925-6. That is due to a decrease in the provision for bonuses. There is no change in fact in the number of persons covered by the Vote. The work of the office includes the necessary administration work in connection with prisons and prisoners, under the supervision of the secretary and the accountant; payments for supplies and services under the supervision of the clerk in charge of accounts; supervision of receipts and issues of stores devolves on a junior executive officer; registration of habitual criminals by means of finger prints and photographs, and securing photographic prints for the administration of justice, is carried out by two clerks in the habitual criminals' register, one of whom assists, in addition, in the administration branch of the office; the supervision of building supplies, works, etcetera, comes under the clerk of works. The agent for discharged prisoners mentioned in the Estimates assists prisoners and Borstal inmates after their discharge. He visits them and makes reports to the Board as to their progress. This officer also attends the Dublin District Court.

The messengers and office cleaners, in addition to performing the necessary messengers' duties in the office, have had imposed upon them, without additional remuneration, the duties of messengers and office-cleaners in the Reformatories and Industrial Schools Department, which is in the same building as the General Prisons Board. Passing to sub-head B, travelling and incidental expenses, £350, there is a reduction of £50 as compared with the financial year 1925-6. Expenses under that sub-head are for the payment of travelling expenses of members of the Board and the officers of the Department. Deputies might wish to know the rates of payment. They do not differ, I think, from the general rates prevailing in the service. The members of the Board and the secretary are paid on a scale of 20/- per night: the executive officers, 15/-; the clerk of works and agent for discharged prisoners, 10/-; and there is a third scale of 10/-. Under this sub-head the other expenditure includes the purchase of newspapers for official use, chemicals for photographic uses, repayments to the Stationery Office for the cost of advertising for supplies, and so on. Sub-head C, pay and allowances, including uniform, a sum of £80,700. A reduction of £7,000 is effected under this sub-head. That is due, firstly to the reduction in bonuses of £4,000: a reduction in uniform equipment of £650; a reduction in overtime payment of £500: a reduction in the temporary warders and temporary wardresses staffs of £1,300; and in the permanent staff of £700. The total reduction in numbers under this sub-head has been 24 as compared with 1925-6. The question of establishment charges is being carefully watched and, as opportunity arises, proposals will be submitted for effecting every possible economy, with due regard for the efficiency of the service. Certain posts have been suppressed in the course of the last financial year, notably that of the steward of the Borstal Institute and a clerkship in Waterford. The total number of prisoners provided for is 1,000, which is a reduction of 100 as compared with that of 1925-26. The establishments under the control of the Board are, of course, the same as those covered by the Estimates of last year— Mountjoy, Maryborough, the Borstal Institution at Clonmel, Cork Male and Female Prisons, Dundalk, Galway, Limerick, Sligo and Waterford. The daily average number of prisoners throughout the year ending 31st March, 1926, was 912, and 223 of that number represents the daily average of male convicts in Maryborough.

Mr. JOHNSON

Has the Minister any information to show how that prison population compares with other countries, per thousand inhabitants?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

My impression is that it is on the low side. I have not got exact comparisons, but I may be able to get them for the Deputy before the discussion on the Vote closes. I possibly will be able to get one comparison, at any rate, a comparison with Britain. Sub-head D—Victualling— £14,000. There is a substantial reduction of £5,000 here. It is due to the provision for only 1,000 prisoners which is made possible by the restoration of normal conditions.

Mr. BAXTER

Will the Minister say 1,000 at the moment?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The estimate is based on a provision for 1,000. One factor in keeping the Vote under this sub-head low is that every available piece of ground attached to the various prisons is cultivated, and the crops produced are availed of to form part of the prison diet. Under sub-head E, there is a Vote of £4,500 to cover clothing, bedding and furniture. The reduction here is due to the reduced number of prisoners to be provided for and only the minimum requirements for each prison are sanctioned by the Board. In sub-head F—Medicines— there is a reduction of £50. The reduction there, of course, is due to the same cause—the reduction in numbers. Under sub-head G, a Vote of £10,360, there is a reduction of £640. That reduction is due, mainly, to two causes, the introduction of electric light in Mountjoy Prison and the purchase of coal at favourable prices by the Board of Works. A sum of £285 goes in payment of rents for various places. We pay a rent, for instance, of £139 for the Borstal Institute. We pay a rent of £60 for the Cork Sunday's Well Prison.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Could the Minister say how many are in the Borstal Institute?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I was in the Borstal Institute a few days ago. The number there is 62.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

That would be about the average for the year?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think 62 may be taken as about the average figure. We pay a rent of £7 odd for Kilmainham; for Sligo a rent of £51 13s. We pay a small rent of £6 for Philipstown. Sub-head I is a large Vote—£11,000— for escort and conveyance.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Could the Minister say why has that increased so much?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The institution of the Central Criminal Court has involved an increase in the amount of escort work from the country.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Outlying districts?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes. Under the heading of Ordinary Repairs—subhead J—a reduction is shown of £700. I think that brings the Vote under that sub-head probably as low as it can be brought. The maintenance works are, of course, carried out by the works staff of the prison and, to some extent, by prison labour. Sub-head J.J.— Alterations at Mountjoy Female Prison —a sum of £1,500. The alterations indicated under that sub-head are in connection with the introduction of electric light in the female prison at Mountjoy. Under sub-head L. a sum of £1,200 for travelling and incidental expenses is dealt with. There is a reduction of £800, due to the altered conditions and reduced numbers. Sub-head M. shows £450 for telegrams and telephones, a sum of £13 for the maintenance of children of female prisoners, and for the maintenance of criminal lunatics, £10,500. There is a decrease of £1,000 there. That expenditure really lies outside the control of the Board. It is a diminishing one. Under sub-head P. there is a sum of £350 for gratuities. There is a reduction of £50. It is expected that the amount provided will be sufficient. Gratuities to the extent of 10/- can be earned by ordinary prisoners. Convicts can earn gratuities up to the amount of £3. That can be further supplemented by an extra gratuity of £3 in the case of men, and women convicts can earn up to £4, which can be supplemented by a further grant of £2. The inmates of the Borstal Institute can be given gratuities not exceeding £3. There is a contribution under sub-head Q. of £150 to the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society. Sub-head R. shows Appropriations-in-Aid. There is a reduction of £200 due to the reduction in the number of prisoners. The more prisoners, of course, the greater the output of the workshops. The receipts in the manufacturing department are derived from the sales of firewood and mats to the public. In Cork Prison baskets are made. Then there are certain miscellaneous receipts, including the sale of old stores, offal, surplus produce from the gardens in the nonagricultural prisons. Then there are some small receipts by way of rents of cottages not occupied by members of the prison staff.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to ask the Minister whether it is essential by any regulation or statutory rules that this Vote should be headed "Chairman of the Prisons Board"? I gather by a previous discussion that it was not proposed to fill this office, and if that is so is it essential that we should still pretend that it is intended to have a Chairman of the Prisons Board, if the office is vacant?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

What will you call the Vice-Chairman of the Prisons Board if you eliminate the Chairman, even though the post is not vacant? The fact is, of course, that the person who was Vice-Chairman is now the Chairman of the Board, the senior member of the Board, but it is not proposed to make any addition to the Board or to appoint any person at the rate of remuneration previously drawn by the person who was Chairman. Probably the Board as such will disappear, but it is part of our administrative machinery that we did not interfere with because it was working smoothly and efficiently. There was not any reason for interference, and there was so much else to attend to, but the survival of the Board as a Board is, of course, a purely nominal thing. There is constant contact and communication between those who act on the Board and the officials of my Department. It is in every respect functioning under the supervision and control of my Department and probably even the name "Prisons Board" will disappear and simply these officials will take their places as officials of the Department attending to a particular branch.

Mr. BAXTER

I would like to have heard the Minister tell us something more. He did suggest that the whole question of what we shall call the organisation or administration of the present system was to some extent at least under consideration at the moment. I would like to know from the Minister if the whole prison system in the country has been at any time recently, or is at present being, given attention by the authorities on this question. Our prison system is at least in some respects akin to our mental hospitals and many feel that the whole question of treatment of these hospitals is not developed along scientific lines to the extent that should be possible. I would like to know what consideration is given to the question of treatment of, shall we say, criminals in these institutions with a view to a possible change in their mentality, whether in any of these institutions in any country there has been given consideration to this aspect of things or not. My experience for a little while in one of these institutions—perhaps the Minister might be able to say the same thing —was that it was really amazing to find that even inside there, despite all the efforts of the warders and of very close vigilance, one saw criminals able to be in possession in the prison of all sorts of various things. One saw them with pen-knives and watch-chains and a marvellous collection of things of that kind. Criminals in the prison at all times were prepared to exchange for cigarettes, say, articles at least ten times the value of the cigarettes, and the impression I gathered was that there was comparative idleness. That certainly bred further mischief.

It occurred to me then: what were the possibilities of altering the system, if there was any possible chance by a system of tuition, or treatment by some other methods that, at the present time, are not practised, to change the outlook of many of these individuals? It is rather a difficult question to discuss for one with very little experience, but undoubtedly those who have spent a short period in a prison—the experience of some members of the Dáil, and others outside—have all agreed that some change should be made in the administration of these institutions. There ought to be an attempt made to run them on lines other than those attempted up to the present. The idea that an individual put into one of these prisons is a criminal, has to be treated as a criminal and as an individual who is beyond hope of change, that he is there merely to be punished is, I think, not exactly sound. The possibility of classification or employment of some methods other than what we have known up to the present, with a view to an improvement in the character and outlook of prisoners generally, is something that demands attention and thought, and I would like to know if anything has been done, or is being done, in that direction.

Mr. HEWAT

There does not seem to be any great enthusiasm for criticising this Vote. Perhaps it is that Deputies are afraid of the Minister's string of facts and do not wish to bring down his merciless criticism on their heads. Broadly speaking, the facts as disclosed here show there has been a considerable reduction of expenditure in connection with this Vote, but yet we are faced with the formidable total of £144,850 in connection with the upkeep and maintenance of the prison system. The Minister has told us that there are eight prisons and a Borstal Institute which are maintained for this sum. One cannot but think that eight prisons are excessive for a population of three million people, more particularly when we realise that the three million people comprise a very large proportion of the farming community which, incidentally, represents 75 per cent. of the wealth of the country. In addition, of course, the farming community is notoriously peace-loving and law-abiding. Under those conditions and recognising that the farming community is now so law-abiding——

Mr. BAXTER

So law-abiding now?

Mr. HEWAT

—that we might expect they would give us all the assistance in their power in all parts of the country in the direction of maintaining law and order, it does seem that one must criticise the continued maintenance of eight prisons. The Minister has indicated that he is working towards a change in the condition of affairs, and we recognise that once the Minister for Justice takes a thing in hand it is almost as good as done. Following the line that Deputy Baxter has taken, I suggest that the incarceration of persons in prisons for minor offences could be improved upon, and I would ask the Minister to reconsider the old system of utilising stocks on the village green and putting delinquents under the charge of a very civil civic guard. Some time ago I suggested that the Circuit Court, combined with a native civic force, would have a paternal and disciplinary effect on the people. I think they could be entrusted safely with looking after minor offences and assisting the people to choose the narrow rather than the broad path that leads to destruction. In that way we would be able to foster a civic spirit and, possibly, after a time a central prison in Athlone would suffice. To that prison we could send all the very bad cases.

I am not in a position to criticise this Vote very fully. I have not had an opportunity of enjoying the hospitality of any of the prisons. Perhaps there is a good time coming. As a matter of fact, I have not been within the precincts of a prison, even as a visitor. I have very little knowledge of the state of affairs that exists within the prison walls. I was always quite satisfied to view the prisons from the outside, and I never hankered for any closer intimacy with those establishments. I do hope the Minister has followed the line, which seems to be largely adopted in connection with other Estimates, of over-estimating the prisoners he will have to cater for. Conditions are improving in the country, and I do hope that in the near future we will be able to say that the Minister has made a substantial cut in his Estimate. In dealing with an Estimate of this sort it would be dangerous for us, with our limited knowledge, to ask the Minister in advance to cut down what he considers is necessary, because that might be hampering the administration of justice. I throw out those suggestions and I hope that the Minister in this case has very largely over-estimated the amount he will require to spend.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Deputy Johnson was anxious for comparison, and while Deputy Hewat was entertaining the Dáil I endeavoured to get the information. I find that the last year I can get information about with regard to Scotland is 1923; I think it is the last year for which definite figures are available. There was there an average prison population of 1,996 from a population of, I think, about three and three-quarter millions. The figures for Great Britain for 1924 show that the average prison population was 11,148 from a total population of about 38 millions. The comparison which we worked out, for what it is worth, is as follows:—Scotland, 52 prisoners per 100,000 of the population; Great Britain, 29 prisoners per 100,000 of the population, and the Free State, 29 prisoners per 100,000 of the population.

Deputy Baxter discussed the prison system generally, and talked about his own experience, and the evils of idleness in prisoners and so on. I had hoped, before this Estimate came up for discussion, to be able to go round all the prisons and the Borstal Institute, simply because I thought it would be desirable to inform myself, in a personal and direct way, about the conditions in all those places. So far, I have only been to Mountjoy Prison and to the Borstal Institute at Clonmel on a visit of inspection, but I hope to go round all the prisons shortly. I must say that in Mountjoy Prison I was favourably impressed, and I had a feeling that I did not sufficiently appreciate it when I was there in another capacity. The place is very well kept, is very bright and clean, and there was no general atmosphere of idleness. On the contrary, there was quite a good deal of work going on in the workshops and in the wood yard. In the female prison the prisoners were at work on laundering, sewing, and other works of that kind suited to them. The Board understand that there is a receptive mentality in the Department, and in me personally, for any suggestion they may have to make for the improvement of the prison system. But there is nothing to be gained by simply allowing oneself to be led into a disposition for change for the sake of change. There is no intrinsic virtue in establishing something different. If we are to change we must be reasonably sure that the change will be for the better. The whole matter is one on which I should like to feel my way carefully. I should like to give more attention to it before taking any action or recommending any departure than I have been able to give up to the present in the course of the last two or three years when there were many other administrative claims that really outweighed that aspect of things.

On the question of mitigating in any way the severity of the prison code I have not much to say. The prison system as it now exists is not severe. There is nothing really in the nature of physical hardship in the lot of a prisoner sentenced to imprisonment. One small matter has been under consideration, and that is the abolition of the plank-bed. In the end, when it comes to a point of decision, it will be largely a question of finance. The plank-bed is, I think, gone in some prisons elsewhere, and if the financial position was better and more comfortable than it actually is we might be disposed to recommend that that change should be adopted here also. But, at the moment, I am simply not in the position to say that a definite change in the prison system has been decided upon or is even in contemplation. When we have more opportunity to study the matter than we have had up to the present I agree it would be reasonable on the part of Deputies to inquire whether we were satisfied with the existing system or considered any change advisable.

Mr. JOHNSON

Perhaps the Minister for Justice would get into communication with the Minister for Defence, as he has a large number of mattresses and pillow-cases on hand.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

That state of things is all right. It is simply a question whether the plank-bed should go and be replaced by a spring-bed. Deputy Hewat did not, I think, say anything calling for special comment. I am glad to find that he is so well satisfied with the Estimate as a whole, and I hope that his hopes as to possible reductions in the future will be realised.

Mr. BAXTER

I beg to move an amendment to reduce sub-head C by £2,781, and I want to explain how I arrived at that figure. Some time ago, in reply to a question, I was informed that out of a total of 420 officials 238 were pre-Treaty officials. They are paid altogether £80,700. The old officials are paid £52,886, and the difference, apparently, is that paid to the new officials, £27,814—that is to say, the newly-appointed officials are paid over £27,000. There are 180 of them. Now, the policy being pursued in the country, not acceptable in some quarters, not a pleasant duty to have to perform, but demanded by the necessities of the moment, and which must be carried into effect, is to reduce, where possible, the expenditure in all institutions. The ratepayers' representatives have, for the last few months, been going into this question of expenditure in practically every county and are tackling this problem, and they have made reductions in the payments of the staffs of these institutions of from 10 to 20 per cent. Some have suggested that the people in the country are not prepared to stand up to their responsibilities in these matters. It is said that they come here to the Dáil and advocate economy but are not prepared to tackle the question when it comes to their own doors. That cannot be said certainly of the representatives on the county councils, mental hospitals and such institutions, and I think practically in every instance reductions have been made in estimates for these institutions.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. BAXTER

I think it can hardly be suggested that there is very great difference in the work of officials in our prisons and the officials in mental hospitals. I think it is correct to say that the smallest reduction made by any mental hospital committee in the country is a reduction of 10 per cent., and on the figures I have given, accepting things as they are, we find 180 new officials paid £27,000. I am asking the Dáil to agree to a 10 per cent. cut in the salaries of these officials. That is the reduction that is being carried out in other institutions where the work is similar and where the responsibilities are no greater. These reductions are being made by ratepayers' representatives because they feel the conditions in the country demand it. We will be putting these officials on the same plane as others, in similar circumstances, down the country, if the Dáil agree with the reduction that I am suggesting. I have given the figures on which I have based my amendment. I ask the Dáil to agree with me that this reduction is reasonable and that the amendment should be accepted.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I think the Deputy scarcely supported his amendment with adequate considerations. He said that certain things are being done in the country, and argued from that that they should be done here. Of course the argument is not complete. It is not by any means all-sufficient. I am wondering whether the Deputy, before putting down his amendment, took the trouble even to ascertain what the pay of the ordinary warder per week is, and if he asked himself whether it was excessive for the work performed? I think he should begin there and not simply say that some county council or some board of health that he had read of in a local paper, was reducing all salaries of its staff, and that therefore the staff of the Prisons Service should have their salaries reduced. He may have other arguments; he may have other reasons, good, bad or indifferent, but I am taking the position as presented. Deputy Baxter read in a local paper that some county council or some board of health was reducing the pay of its staff and he put down an amendment here.

Mr. BAXTER

I said mental hospitals all over the country, and on the mental hospitals I am basing my case.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I would like to believe the Deputy. I think that that is a very sweeping generalisation. I do not think the prison pay is excessive. The ordinary warder gets at present about 55/- per week. For the work performed and for the type of man we must get, or try to get, and for the expectation we have of reliable, faithful service from that man it is not an excessive rate of remuneration, having regard to the present conditions. It may be that the local authorities here and there through the country are reducing the rate of pay of their staffs, but we should know what the rate of pay was and what is the proposed change before we could base any argument, however flimsy, on it. Will the Deputy say that they are reducing it below this rate here? Or is it simply that being very much in excess it will now, after very courageous action on the part of the local authority, be somewhat less in excess? We do not know. The Deputy builds up a kind of case, but if we were to take it seriously at all we would need a lot more information about it than at present. Even if we take him to be stating the exact facts when he says the mental hospitals all over the country are reducing the rates of pay of their officials, we would want to know what these rates were, what the reductions were, and what the future rates would be, before we could proceed to draw an analogy between them and the rates paid in the prison service. I admit the work in the prison service sometimes is not arduous, but there is sometimes a big demand on the staff and sometimes a less demand. But you want reliable service. It is responsible work, very responsible work, and in all the circumstances, I am not prepared to subscribe to the suggestion that the pay is excessive. There is a further fact, of course, and that is that a big proportion of the staff is protected by the Treaty Article in the same way as civil servants and police are protected and that any interference with their rates of pay will have probable reactions on your pensions list.

Mr. BAXTER

I have not gone into that.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I know the Deputy deliberately excluded that and said: "Deal with the others." It does not require much imagination to conceive the state of affairs you bring about in an organised service like the prison service if you have men working side by side doing the same work, taking the same responsibility and drawing a different rate of pay. That is not a situation that I would like to contemplate in any force like the police or the prison service where men work in close contact, side by side. A, knowing that he is doing the same work as B, and that he is probably doing it as well, and feeling that he is drawing a smaller rate of remuneration, that would create friction and discontent in your service, and I think the economy, such as it would be, would be unsound economy. It is a small service; there are only a couple of hundred men in it. But it is a very important service, and the loyalty of that staff is a matter of very real concern to the community at large if your prison service is to be efficient at all. Now the suggestion is that all new men, all the men who came in since the establishment of the State, are to have their pay reduced, and that the others are to be left at their present level. I will not stand for that suggestion, and if the Deputy were in my place, instead of being in opposition, he would not stand for it either. No man responsible for a service such as that would be prepared to accept the suggestion that two-thirds of the staff would do their work at a particular rate of pay, and that the other one-third would do the same class of work at a lesser rate. You could not have that state of things in the Army or the police force or a service such as this. You could not have discrimination in the pay of men who do identical work. On these grounds, looking at the thing fairly and on its merits and looking at the thing in the abstract and apart from this question of discrimination, and also because I do not think the pay excessive for the work performed, I ask the Dáil to reject the Deputy's amendment.

Mr. BAXTER

I am not prepared to agree with the Minister, and I do not think that the Minister ought to expect that because a certain service existed here, and men were given certain rates of pay for discharging the duty, that it is not possible to get other men to do the same work for less money. I suggest that to the Minister. He knows just as well as I do that the service can be recruited from the type who are prepared to come in, and they are not asking what the pay is. Hundreds of applicants all over the country for the Gárda Síochána to-day are not asking what is the pay. They are asking to get there.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

They know very well.

Mr. BAXTER

They know very well. I am suggesting to the Minister that he would get the very same people if the pay for these forces to-day was considerably reduced from the figure at which they are paid. Beyond doubt salaries and remuneration have been fixed for new officers going into new posts at a figure that is really, from the point of view of the position and the capacity of the country to pay, higher than it should be fixed.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Might I put a question to the Deputy? His amendment is to reduce the sub-head by the sum of £2,781. Perhaps he would enter into details as to how he arrived at that figure? I should like to have the numbers who are to have their pay cut and the amount of that cut, so that I would know what the difference would be between the new man who entered the prison service since the establishment of the State and the old man, whom I must not touch because of his Article 10 right.

Mr. BAXTER

If the Dáil agrees to the cut, it is for the Minister, with his inside information, to get at the particulars.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The Deputy should give us the grounds he has for fixing the amount at £2,781. Why not, for instance, £2,780?

Mr. BAXTER

I think you will find that £2,781 represents a reduction of 10 per cent. on £27,814. According to the figures given to me, 180 new hands have been taken into this Vote. There are 420 officials in all, of whom 238 were old officials. The difference between the total Vote and the amount paid to the old officials gives us £27,814 as the cost of the new officials. Ten per cent. reduction on that will give you £2,781. I hold that the work that is being done in every Department of State to-day could be as well done by the same men at a lower figure than the figure fixed. I say that that statement is true of this service as well as of the services we have dealt with and that we are to deal with. If the conditions demand a reduction in any estimate, whether local or central, you cannot urge that one service, where it is possible to have a reduction, should be excluded from the sweep of the brush.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Is this rate of pay excessive?

Mr. BAXTER

If the rate of pay given twelve months ago or two years ago was good enough, then, if there is a demand—and there is a demand rightfully—for a reduction on that rate of pay to-day——

Mr. O'HIGGINS

That sounds a very good argument and I am sorry to break in on the Deputy. The Deputy says that if the rate of pay was good enough two years ago, it is too good now. That is his argument, I think. The rate of pay falls with any fall in the cost-of-living index figure. The fifty-five shillings is inclusive of bonus. As the cost-of-living index figure goes down, the Deputy can rest easy at night in full knowledge and confidence that the rate of pay of the prison service is coming down with it. The fifty-five shillings I have mentioned is inclusive of bonus.

Mr. WILSON

It is not inclusive of allowances.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

During the last three or four years the warder has lost about ten shillings in his pay with the fall in cost-of-living figure. Therefore, it is not a good argument to say that if the salary was good enough three years ago it is too good now because it was higher than fifty-five shillings three years ago. It has fallen and will fall with any further fall in the cost-of-living figure. Therefore, I am entitled to put to the Deputy the bald, plain question: "Is fifty-five shillings per week now, in the existing conditions, an excessive rate of pay for the man who performs the duties of warder in the prison service?"

Mr. BAXTER

I am trying to be as fair in this case as I can.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

So am I.

Mr. BAXTER

If the Minister tells me that the figure of fifty-five shillings is the total figure and includes no allowances——

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It includes bonus.

Mr. BAXTER

Are there any other allowances?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Any allowances there are the Deputy will find set out clearly in the Estimates.

Mr. BAXTER

There are, of course, allowances.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

If the Deputy is going to talk about allowances, then will he please talk definitely and precisely about allowances and say which of them he wants to complain about? Up to this we have been talking about pay, and the Deputy was talking about pay under a very false impression, as I have shown. Now, I am willing to talk just as straight about allowances, if the Deputy will come down to particulars and tell me what item he wants to talk about.

Mr. BAXTER

If the Minister made the statement that fifty-five shillings per week included everything—uniform allowances and all that sort of thing—I would be prepared to say that it was not too high a figure. But if the warder was paid sixty-five shillings twelve months ago, and if the reduction in the warder's salary is such that it is fifty-five shillings to-day, that is accounted for by the fall in prices. The fifty-five shillings is as good to him to-day as the sixty-five shillings was twelve months ago, because the drop in his salary is only on that side of his salary which is affected by bonus. What I hold is that the salary paid twelve months ago or two years ago should be the subject of revision to-day, and that if we are to deal equitably with every official we can legally deal with, the same case stands for a reduction in the salary of these people as in the salary of people in every other service in the State. If the position was that these men were paid fifty-five shillings per week and that there were no other allowances, I would say it was not a very exorbitant figure. But there are allowances to warders which we know bring their salaries above fifty-five shillings per week. I cannot calculate at the moment what these allowances amount to individually, but I am prepared to stand by my statement that if a man was paid sixty-five shillings a year or two years ago and that he has lost ten shillings since, he has lost it because there has been such a drop in prices that his bonus is reduced and that the fifty-five shillings is as good to him to-day as sixty-five shillings was a year or two years ago. On that I say that there is justification for a reduction.

Mr. JOHNSON

Deputy Baxter is making the case that the rate of pay of warders established under the British régime was too high or, alternatively, if it was not too high, that the plan of bonus is excessive, that the rate of bonus and the system of reduction in bonus allows too great a sum to the warders or to other civil servants. I do not know whether Deputy Baxter intends to maintain that position right through the Civil Service. He will get very few civil servants to agree with him with respect to either of these counts, and he will get very few people with any experience of life outside the Civil Service to agree with him—that the rate of pay fixed for warders, beginning at 29/- per week, rising by 1/- to 35/-, and then by 1/6 to 43/- a week, was excessive pre-war.

Mr. BAXTER

Is not the same case made to-day for the road worker, or anybody else?

Mr. JOHNSON

If the Deputy will maintain that the wages of road-workers and the like should be levelled up to that of the warder pre-war I will agree with him. But the Deputy's usual propaganda is to use the general low pay pre-war as the basis for bringing down other services to that level. I am surprised at Deputy Baxter using any argument which would lead to that conclusion, because that is the conclusion that he wants, to lower even the standard that prevailed in the lower paid ranks of the Civil Service pre-war. He bases his argument on the fact that non-civil servants, road-workers and the like, were paid starvation wages pre-war.

Mr. BAXTER

No, they have had to be reduced now. It is not the pre-war figure at all.

Mr. GOREY

Where does pre-war come in?

Mr. JOHNSON

Pre-war comes in by the fact that the scale upon which these men are paid is the pre-war scale, and a certain advance was made to them because of the increased prices ruling, and these prices, as they fall, inevitably bring down the remuneration. If the Deputy wishes to reduce the Vote I do not think we should attack the wages of the warders, or of any of the other lower paid ranks of the Civil Service.

Mr. GOREY

I agree more or less with Deputy Johnson in one particular, that is, with regard to attacking the lower officials and not the higher officials. For instance, take the governors. We have two governors in class I., one in class II., six in class III., and two deputy governors, giving a total of eleven for eight institutions. Is that right?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Eight prisons and the Borstal.

Mr. GOREY

Except all these are old appointments I think we could do without a few of them very well, seeing the very small number of prisoners there are at present. In some prisons there are only 40 to 50, and I do not see what we want with governors and deputy-governors all over the place.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

You have not got them all over the place.

Mr. GOREY

There seems to be a tremendous number of chaplains, too. I think that that end of it is pretty well attended to also. I do agree with the Minister to this extent, that you want a very exceptional class of man as a warder, and, I think, more particularly as a warder, because loyalty in this connection is something that is absolutely necessary. But even with the small number of prisoners that there are, we have heard of recent escapes and we have heard a good deal of comment as to how these escapes were effected. It is not my business to inquire; rumours are one thing and facts are another. But one thing is certain, you cannot expect them to do this work, and do it well, at the same wage as that paid to an ordinary man outside. We know that they are subjected to temptations; money has been offered to them; money will be offered to them. As a general rule money is rather plentiful among criminals, and this class of man must be put above temptation. I should say that he is in a different position altogether from a Civic Guard, but still, considering his salary, bonus and allowance, not from the bottom at all, but from the top right down, I think some economies should be effected. I have referred to the number of governors. Perhaps I have not a full grasp of the position, but I think that, although the Vote is a small one, there are ample opportunities for effecting the economies suggested by Deputy Baxter within the next twelve months.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Let us see these governors and deputy-governors all over the place. There are two first-class governors and one second-class governor. The first-class would be Mountjoy and Portlaoighise. There is one second-class governor in Cork, and there are six third-class, Sligo, Dun-dalk, Galway, Waterford, Limerick, and the Borstal at Clonmel.

Mr. BAXTER

Are these new or old appointments?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

They are all old officials. Most of them held their present positions in the past, and others were promoted to them. They are not new officials; I have not brought men in and put them into the positions. On the question of these allowances, what it amounts to is this: there is uniform for officers. For male officers the uniform is a cap, two jackets, two trousers, two pairs of boots, supplied annually, a great coat, supplied every two years, and a belt as required. The one belt practically does the man his time in the service. The cost of that—because, of course, it is produced by prison labour in the workshops—is about £5 to the State. For pension purposes it is allowed to count as 3/6 a week, but I estimate the real value of it is about 2/- a week. A man gets quarters, and if it is not possible to provide him with quarters—I do not know that there are many cases of that kind—he is given a living-out allowance of something between 6/- and 8/- a week. Eight shillings would be the maximum. The Deputy can take it, therefore, that if you count these two allowances and add them to the 55/-, I contend that with the type of man you require and must get, it is not an excessive rate of pay.

Mr. BAXTER

Is the 55/- the lowest wage paid, because none of the more highly paid officials come within the 180 I have mentioned?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Such recruitment to the Prison Service as there has been since we took over has been recruitment to the rank of ordinary warder only. My first position is this: that is not excessive under existing conditions, quite apart from any other consideration, and I move on then to this position, that you are debarred, or practically debarred, from any change in connection with probably two-thirds of the personnel, that if you were to adopt any change you would be met with the evil that you would have men doing the same work and bearing the same responsibilities at different rates of pay, and nothing could play greater havoc in an organised service than that. I put it to you that, if it saved every penny of this £2,781, it would be bad business, and I would not recommend it. As Deputy Gorey says, even as things are, members of the staff are occasionally suborned with results that make a flare heading for an evening paper. You can only face that and deal with it. When that happened other things happened within the prison staff. Temporary warders, who had never won the complete confidence of their authorities were discharged without further notice, and a general order was issued that any temporary warder who, after a reasonable period, had not succeeded in gaining the complete confidence of the officials placed over him was to be discharged.

There is a period of probation in the prison service, and my position is this, that if a man is taken on as a temporary warder, and if, after a year, eighteen months, or two years, that man is not fit to be incorporated as a permanent warder, he must go. He must, within his probation period, secure the confidence of the Board or go. And when my attention was drawn to the fact, after that escape, that we had temporary warders that the Board had never thought fit to recommend for incorporation in the service as permanent warders because they had not complete confidence in them, I said, and I think I was justified in saying it: "It is time that these men went," and certain officers were discharged. I think the whole case is now before the Dáil. I do not think that the present rates of pay are excessive. Further, I think that such a thing as is contemplated by the motion, a discrimination between men doing identical work, is highly inadvisable, and I recommend against it.

Motion put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.