Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 28 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 22

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE.

Motion made by the Minister for Finance on the 27th May:—
Go ndeontar suim na raghaidh thar £281,164 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tailte agus Talmhaíochta agus seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riara na Roinne sin maraon le h-Ilduntaisí i gCabhair.
That a sum not exceeding £281,164 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, and of certain services administered by that Department, including Sundry Grants in Aid.

I stated last evening that the educational schemes of the Department cost approximately £153,000. We can all agree as to the importance of education, but the measure of our unanimity on this point is the measure of the differences that immediately manifest themselves when it comes to discussing just exactly what our educational system should be. There is one thing, however, quite certain, and it is that we must get rid of the notion that it is possible to devise a system for the Irish farmer under which he can be educated without undergoing the painful necessity of having to think. Education for the farmer resolves itself into (1) a good primary education; (2) technical education; and (3) university agricultural education. The function of primary education is to teach a boy or girl how to read, write, and calculate, and so far as primary education is concerned, that is its function whether the pupil is or is not going to get the opportunity of a technical or university education, or will afterwards become a farmer, a shopkeeper, a labourer, a professional man, or a manufacturer. Opinions differ in regard to the question as to whether agriculture should be taught in the primary school. Other things being equal, it is fairly obvious that the books in a rural primary school should have a rural bias, but the main point is to see that the primary school fulfils its proper function, that is to say, that it teaches the pupils how to read, write, and calculate. If the primary school does this, it will have done all that should be expected of it. The State can do no more in this matter than to provide good schools and efficient teachers, and to prescribe compulsory attendance.

Technical agricultural education of a secondary character is provided by the Department through their various institutions and schemes. Higher agricultural education is provided in the university colleges. Of the sum of £153,666 mentioned as the estimated cost of Educational Services, £83,844 is the cost of the former and £69,822 of the latter. As I stated already, it is difficult to group particular sub-heads of the Department which deal with education. The sum of £89,200—subheads H (1) and H (2)—being grants to County Committees, the sum of £58,696 being the cost of the work done directly by the Department analogous to that administered by the County Committees, and £125,000, being cost of Headquarters Staff, all include the cost of officers whose work is partly educational. Excluding provision for the university education, the agricultural education of the Department consists of (1) the education of boys and girls at Departmental institutes of which there are five; (2) the education and advisory work done by the instructors and overseers, of which there is a total of about 150; (3) the education and advisory work done by the inspectors of the Department; (4) winter classes conducted by the agricultural instructors; and (5) the publication and distribution of departmental leaflets, of which there are about 100 in circulation, and which are revised, re-issued, and added to, as found necessary.

The first thing to be said about technical agricultural education is that it is essential to bring it to the farmer. This is a country of small farmers. The small farmer's son cannot come to a boarding school, and it is necessary, and will be necessary for a very long time, to bring the facilities for a technical education to his door, and this fact must influence the preparation of any scheme in connection with agricultural education. You may increase the number of students who will come to institutes from two hundred to a thousand, but even if this is effected, there will still be but a very small proportion of farmers' sons getting educated in these institutes. Danish high schools have recently been referred to a good deal, and some nonsense has been talked about them. Danish high schools are not primarily, agricultural schools at all. They are concerned mainly with giving something better than a primary education—I should say about junior grade standard of secondary education—to their pupils. They teach mathematics, languages, and history, and some agriculture. If, for instance, there were some lectures on agriculture given in Ring or Ballingeary colleges, these colleges would fairly closely approximate the Danish high schools. In Denmark less than five per cent. of the farmers' sons attend high schools. Obviously, therefore, a high schools will not solve the problem of agricultural education for our farmers. If there was a high school or institute in every county, charging merely the average fees that are at present charged in our institutes (namely, about £15 per annum), it is not likely that there would be anything like five per cent. of the farmers attending, and even to effect this would cost an additional £100,000 per annum.

Agricultural education can only be brought to the farmer's son by an extension of winter classes, itinerant instructors, and by a more widespread and intensive publicity in the way of pamphlets, etc. The fact that farmers' sons do not attend agricultural classes at present as well as they should is certainly not evidence in favour of a scheme of agricultural education under which the pupil must attend a school from two or three to twenty miles from his residence and pay a considerable fee for the education he gets there. I am not to be taken as ignoring the value of giving a sound agricultural education to a limited number of farmers each year. I would like to see additional institutes where farmers' sons could get a year's or two years' course. It is not right to measure the success of these schools entirely by the number of students who attend them. It must be taken into account that when the pupils from these schools go back to their farms, their work on their farms influences and educates their neighbours. One good farmer in a district has an extraordinary influence on his neighbours.

We must not, however, base our scheme for agricultural education on educating five per cent. of the farming community. These schemes must help directly or indirectly the bulk of the small farmers. As I said, I see no better way of effecting that purpose than by concentrating and extending the existing schemes. Winter classes, however, cannot be extended indefinitely. The existing instructors can only deal on an average with about sixty class-meetings per annum in each county. In other words, they can only tap two or three parishes in each county. Obviously, it would take two or three times the number of instructors to reach half the parishes in each county, and this would mean, say, three or four hundred extra officials costing from sixty to a hundred thousand pounds per annum. It is obvious, therefore, that no possible extension of winter classes will meet the case. I have considered for some time that in this connection valuable work could be done by a Publicity Section in the Department of Agriculture, which would be in a position to use the daily, local, and weekly papers of the country for its purposes. This Publicity Section should also take charge of all the publicity work of the Department—re-editing the pamphlets, arranging for the compilation and distribution of new ones and finally arranging with the local newspapers for, say, an agricultural page each week. This section could, to some extent, mobilise the various technical officers of the Department for the purposes of providing material for the weekly agricultural page of the daily and local papers. The local paper goes into the house of most small farmers, no matter where they live. They get it for the local news and I think that this fact could be capitalised for educational purposes. I contemplate that these agricultural articles should be maintained steadily and should differ for different districts and in different seasons.

For instance, in the dairying districts in spring-time there would be published articles simply written, on the rearing of calves, rations, suitable green crops to be sown in the late summer or early autumn for the early calving cows the following spring, etc. In the potato-growing districts, articles suitable for these districts would appear. Costings in connection with the feeding of cattle would appear. Costings in connection with the feeding of cattle in winter, feeding of pigs, etc., could all be dealt with in their proper time and place. In addition, questions, such as the advantages of growing barley for feeding, growing more oats for the same purpose etc., could be dealt with. A little consideration will, I think, make it clear that there are considerable possibilities in such a scheme, provided it is organised in the proper way. Obviously, such a Publicity Branch is going to have a really difficult task. It is comparatively easy to write for, or to lecture to, people whose standard of education is fairly high. Any normally good man can do it. It takes very much better officers to give the same services to people whose standard of education is not high. The head of such a section is going to have a very difficult task. It would be a far more difficult and much more responsible post than, say, even the managership of a daily paper or a big business house, and people who are interested exclusively in cutting down salaries regardless of services will be pained to hear that I would do my best to persuade the Minister for Finance to attach a really good salary to the post in the hope of getting a suitable man. Such a Publicity Section when fully working would probably cost between £5,000 and £8,000 per annum. I believe it would be good value for the money. All these educational schemes, however, are based on a good primary education and without this it is impossible to make any advance. If a boy can read, write and calculate reasonably efficiently he can afterwards make use of all his opportunities, whether by way of winter classes, pamphlets, etc., which the State puts in his way.

With regard to university education it has been decided to establish two Faculties of Agriculture, one in University College, Cork, and one in University College, Dublin. The Faculty in Dublin is to be a Faculty of General Agriculture, and the Faculty in Cork is to be a Faculty of Dairy Science. It is necessary to incur some capital expenditure in connection with the setting up of these Faculties. It is estimated that the capital expenditure required for Dublin will be £7,000, of which £6,800 will be required this year, and the balance, £450, in the year 1927-28. For Cork the total will be £67,000, of which £50,000 will be required this year, and the balance, £17,000 in 1927-28. The annual expenditure for Dublin will be met by a grant of £24,984 of which £9,422 will be required for 1926-27. The annual expenditure for Cork will be £13,000 of which £3,600 will be required in the current year.

With regard to the Agricultural Faculty in University College, Dublin, it is proposed that all the technical and experimental work shall be done at the Albert Agricultural College, Glasnevin, which, with the farm attached, is to be transferred to the University College. That is to say, practically all the work after First Arts will be done there. In the nature of the case, practically all the work, including chemistry, bacteriology, botany, animal nutrition, plant breeding, animal breeding, plant pathology, forestry, horticulture, zoology, would have to be done within a convenient distance of, or actually on, the farm. Obviously, it would be inconvenient to have laboratory work, say, in plant or animal breeding, plant pathology, animal nutrition, agricultural chemistry, in the laboratories at one centre, and then be under the necessity of taking the students to another centre at a considerable distance for purposes of actual demonstration. Moreover, practically all the laboratories required are at present in the Albert College, and it will be only necessary to spend about £1,000 in making some slight structural alterations, and about £1,500 on additional equipment which does not exist at present in the College of Science or in the Albert College, and which is essential for the Faculty.

Additional farm buildings and machinery will absorb the balance. The annual expenditure—£24,984—is made up of salaries of professors, lecturers, research assistants, demonstrators, annual renewals of laboratory equipment, etc., cost of conducting Albert College Institute and farms, etc. This will be a Faculty of General Agriculture. It includes professorships of general agriculture, animal nutrition, plant breeding and plant pathology, lectureships in agricultural botany and bacteriology, agricultural chemistry, forestry, farm accountancy, agricultural economics, zoology, and horticulture, etc., as well as research assistantships in technical subjects. The function of this faculty will be to give Degrees in Agriculture to the university students and to do research work on the various subjects indicated— animal nutrition, animal breeding, plant breeding, etc. Our aim in this respect is to establish, so far as we can do it, a first-class faculty, to put it, comparatively speaking, beyond financial worries, to provide all the professorships, lectureships, etc., that are required for the staffing of such a faculty, and to provide such salaries as will attract first-class men. From this faculty will come the technical officers required by the Department of Agriculture. It will provide the opportunity to farmers who wish to give their sons a first-class agricultural education, and, in addition, it ought to attract the best men in the university in physics, chemistry, botany, and zoology, to do research work that will have a bearing on agricultural problems.

The faculty at University College, Cork, will be a Faculty of Dairy Science (including research in dairying). The grant for capital expenditure, viz., £67,000, is substantial. New buildings are required, and it is contemplated that the institute itself and the creamery, plus the cost of the farm on which milk for the creamery will be produced, will bring the total to £67,000. The annual expenditure— £13,000—is mainly the salaries of the various professors, lecturers, etc. These include professors of agriculture, dairy bacteriology, dairy technology, and dairy chemistry, lecturers in dairy engineering, accountancy, assistants in bacteriology and dairy chemistry. In addition, there are butter-makers, cheese-makers, mechanics, etc. It will be noted that there is no duplication as between Cork and Dublin. This faculty, in addition to giving degrees in dairy science to farmers' sons, or pupils intending to become farmers, will provide all the technical officers required by the Department in connection with dairying, and in addition, will do research work into dairying and allied problems.

Everything that I have said in connection with the Dublin faculty applies to the Cork faculty also. Our aim is to make it first-class, so far as we can do it, and to provide the standard of salaries equipment, etc., that is required for that purpose. I consider that the State would be very poor indeed before we would decide that we could not afford these faculties. In the first instance, we must aim at seeing that our agricultural teachers, mainly the technical officers of the Department, are first-class men and, secondly, we must provide ample opportunities for research into agriculture and allied subjects, making these opportunities available, not only to the man who begins in these faculties but, in addition to the really good physicists and chemists who emerge from the physical and chemical faculties of the universities and are anxious to do research work and who would be attracted by the possibilities offered to them in agriculture. It is important to establish at the outset that the agricultural faculty ranks at least as high in the university as, say, the medical, legal, or engineering faculties, and one of the ways of doing this is to provide, so far as possible, for first-class professorships. First class professors, like everybody else, can only be had for first-class salaries. It is the staff that makes a faculty, or mars it, and our aim has been to ensure that the very best, ablest, and most ambitious students will realise that their prospects in the agricultural faculty are at least as good, if not better, than in any of the other faculties mentioned.

It is intended that the university shall carry out research and experiments in agricultural matters, but that the results of this work at the university, as well as elsewhere, shall be carried to the farmer by officers of the Department of Agriculture and the County Committees of Agriculture. The Department of Agriculture will not interfere in such research work as is done by the university college, and the university shall not engage in extension or experimental work outside their own farms and laboratories. It will probably be necessary for the Department of Agriculture to have on its staff expert officers on such matters as plant breeding and dairying—possibly also on other subjects—and the functions of these officers will be to arrange that the results of research work all over the world is taken to the farmer through the Department's own agricultural stations and through the agricultural instructors in the service of the County Committees of Agriculture. Thus, for example, the function of the plant-breeder on the college staff will be to produce, by hybridising or selection, chains of cereals or other agricultural plants superior to those in general culture. There are, however, plant-breeders at work in many other countries and their apparently promising new strains must continue to be tested in this country in the same manner as the two strains of Victory Oats raised in Sweden have been tested, propagated, and distributed in Ireland, and this is work for the Department and the agricultural instructor rather than for the research staff of a university college.

The establishment of a faculty of dairy science in University College, Cork, marks an educational development, and the staff of that Faculty will be engaged on teaching duties as well as research work, for neither of which adequate provision has hitherto been made in this country and which have not, therefore, been previously done on any considerable scale by the Department of Agriculture. The Department's experts on dairying will continue to inspect creameries, etc., advise creamery managers and others, and act in an advisory capacity in connection with the administration of Acts and Orders. It is intended, however, that problems arising in connection with the work of creameries, etc., and with the administration of Acts and Orders should be referred for solution to the research officers of the Faculty in Cork. It is expected that the university and college authorities will permit the Department to consult the specialists of the College Agricultural Faculties in regard to various agricultural problems of a scientific or economic nature. This would clearly obviate duplication of staff, and the Department have kept, and will keep, this consideration in the forefront in the preliminary discussions with the university authorities. With regard to our live stock schemes, they are administered either through the county committees of agriculture or directly by the Department. There appears on the Estimates this year the sum of £27,250 for these schemes, and, in addition, the Minister for Finance has consented to the expenditure of a further £11,400 for which Supplementary Estimates are being introduced. This sum of £11,400 will constitute increases in the following sub-heads:—

Sub-head G 3 (a)—Stallions— will be increased by £1,000.

Sub-head G 3 (d)—Bulls—will be increased by £1,000.

Sub-head I (e)—Bulls, Boars, Rams and Sows—will be increased by £9,400,

making a total increase of £11,400. The total for live stock, therefore, will be £38,250, as against £13,580 spent on the same services last year.

At this stage I might also give one or two other figures. They are not connected with live stock, but Deputies may as well have them:—Subhead F (2), Warrenstown Agricultural School—which is not on the list already, being a new branch—£940; sub-head M 1 (g), Poultry Marketing Scheme, £225; sub-head M 4, Loans for Agricultural Purposes, £7,000; and sub-head O 2 (e), One Man Separating Stations, £1,750. Supplementary Estimates will, of course, be introduced to cover these items, but it is as well that Deputies should know them beforehand, so as to be able to review the whole position. I am dealing now with the Estimates for live stock, together with the increases I have mentioned, and the increases are £11,400. The total for live stock will therefore be £38,250, as against £13,580 spent on the same service last year. These live stock schemes consist of county premiums issuing out of the joint fund of the county committees of agriculture and special premiums, and special terms given directly by the Department for bulls, boars, rams and stallions. This year's Estimates provide for about 1,100 county premiums for bulls, as against 720 last year. These premiums are awarded through the county committees of agriculture and are spread all over the country. In addition there is provision for 474 special premiums and special term bulls, to be put out directly by the Department, as against 224 for last year. These latter bulls are to be put out mainly in the congested districts.

With regard to boars, there is provision for 509 county premiums this year as against 421 in 1925-26, and for 350 special premiums this year, to be placed by the Department of Agriculture, as against 44 last year, and finally there are 100 more premiums provided by the bacon curers. This is rather important for this reason: The Department recently approached the bacon curers in the Free State and represented to them the special efforts which were being made to improve the quality of pigs by raising the standard of boars. It was suggested to the curers that they might help by making contributions, based on the aggregate number of pigs killed annually in the factories. I am glad to say that the majority of the curers were quite ready to co-operate with the Department and have agreed to contribute annually an amount calculated at the rate of one halfpenny for each pig killed. The proceeds of this levy will amount to about £1,100, and will enable the Department to place out about 100 premium boars each year. There will be 950 premium boars in the Free State as against 465 last year. There is a total of 1,500 boars in the country, and under this scheme almost three-quarters of them will be premium pedigree animals, practically all large white Yorks. Last year the Department placed out 93 pedigree sows in the congested districts. This year there is provision for 400.

With regard to rams, it has been for a long time the practice to place out first-class mountain rams on special terms, mainly in Donegal, Kerry and Mayo. These rams are bought for £10 and sold for £3. Last year the number placed out was 160. This year there is provision for 300.

In addition to all these schemes there is provision under sub-head G 3 (d) of £2,000 for stock bulls other than dairy bulls, and under G 2 (e) there is provision of £3,000 for dairy bulls. This provision is for high-class stock animals costing anything between £100 and £1,000 apiece. There are cow-testing associations with registered cows and also small farmers with valuable pedigree cows, either beef or dairy. Their cows are first class, but they cannot afford to purchase a bull of the same standard. Out of these funds the Department will buy 10 or 12 first-class bulls of the same standard as is purchased by the biggest breeders and lease them to cow-testing associations or to groups of small farmers. The lessee merely pays £5 a year to cover insurance and the bulls are changed around to other groups and other cow-testing associations each year.

Finally, there is an increased provision, amounting to £2,000, for the purchase and resale of stallions under sub-head G (3) (a). Pedigree stallions are bought at round about £300 to £500 and sold at from £70 to £200. Sub-head M (4) is used in the main to supplement these schemes and the Minister for Finance has agreed to an addition of £7,000 under this sub-head. This will increase the provision from £23,000 to £30,000. Of that £30,000, £10,000 is used to make advances in connection with the live stock schemes. As already stated, the special premium and special term animals are located mainly in the congested districts, and it is found necessary, in addition to giving a premium or selling an animal at a reduced price, to give a loan to the intending purchaser in order to pay the reduced price. In this way the live stock of areas like Donegal, the West Coast of Mayo, Connemara and Kerry are kept up to the standard of the live stock of the rest of the country.

These schemes, taken in conjunction with the "Control" schemes, constitute the policy of the Department in regard to live stock and live stock products. The Agricultural Produce (Eggs) Act is no more than a full year in operation, and already Irish eggs are at the top of the English market, and are going to remain there. The Dairy Produce Act is not yet fully in operation so far as its export provisions are concerned. Nevertheless, I am satisfied that by the end of this year the reputation of Irish butter on the English market will be completely restored, and that by the end of next year it will be in the same position as Irish eggs. The Live Stock Breeding Act is fully in operation. At the first inspections, which took place in the autumn of 1925, 22 per cent. of the bulls shown were rejected, and at the last inspection 27 per cent. were rejected. From the point of view of quality Irish cattle and beef are second to none. Scotland has three years' experience now of Canadian cattle, and every month that passes is making it clearer to our customers in Great Britain that from this point of view Irish cattle are superior. If we continue to increase our premium schemes on the one side, and to weed out the scrub bulls on the other hand at the rate which we are doing it, then in a very few years Irish cattle and beef will be in an unassailable position, always provided they are fed properly and marketed properly.

The position in regard to our pigs is even more satisfactory. We have now reached the point where there is practically only one breed of pigs in the country—the breed that is admittedly the best, the large white York. This result is mainly due to the foresight of the officers of the Department of Agriculture, who began to purchase them long before their merits were recognised in England, and who were able to get first-class breeding stocks at reasonable prices. This year we will have 900 odd pedigree premium boars out of a total of 1,500 in the country, and my aim is to have every boar in the country a premium boar. The cost would be very little, and would be well worth the money. So far as quality and breeding is concerned, there is no such standardisation in any other country in Europe, not even Denmark, and if the farmers would only effect the same standardisation in regard to feeding and marketing, and refrain from the practice of selling their breeding stock at a loss when prices fall, and buying at a loss when prices rise, then our pig-breeding industry would be firmly established.

It is necessary to understand clearly that our agricultural economy has been for generations, is at present, and it is safe to say will, until there is a change in world conditions, continue to be the production of live stock and live stock products. Agricultural policy cannot be intelligently discussed until this fact is realised. Our total export trade for the last complete year for which we have figures was about £43,000,000, and of that trade about £32,000,000 represents exports of agricultural produce. This figure of £32,000,000 includes more than £31,000,000 worth of live stock products and less than £1,000,000 worth of cash crops, such as flax, potatoes, oats and barley.

How does the Minister deal with beer in these calculations?

Mr. HOGAN

That is not included. Our total exports are £43,000,000, and our total agricultural exports £32,000,000. Beer comes in somewhere between the two.

Should it not be included?

Mr. HOGAN

That is a matter of detail that we can discuss.

Does the Minister count hens as live stock products?

Mr. HOGAN

Yes. hens are live stock. It would be difficult to obtain figures which would indicate our total agricultural production, but it may be accepted that the ratio in values between live stock and live stock products on the one hand and cash crops on the other, is roughly speaking, £31,000,000 to £800,000. While we must increase our total production the increase in live stock will always be far greater than any possible increase in any other agricultural products, such as cash crops. Optimists may take the view that in 50 or 100 years' time the Free State will be producing sufficient sugar to supply the world, doing a potato trade which will equal our exports in cattle and beef and supplying barley to every distillery and brewery in Europe.

In the meantime, however, it is quite certain that for this generation there can be no possible developments in cash crops which will alter the existing position. There is no point whatever in invoking the conditions which existed here in the 18th and early 19th century. Since then inventions such as the steam engine and the steam ship, the utilisation of electricity, the uses of petrol and other sources of power, and the discovery and colonisation of new countries, have completely changed the position. We must realise that it is bad business to ignore climate, labour, and soil conditions, and to attempt to produce articles which other countries can produce better because their particular conditions—which we cannot transplant here—are more favourable. On the other hand, we should concentrate especially on the production of articles which our conditions give us the advantage in producing. Generations of hard experience have taught our farmers this simple economic doctrine. Since 1840 the price of cattle has increased by 400 per cent.; the price of live stock and live stock products by from 150 to 300 per cent.; whereas the prices of cash crops, except potatoes, have remained practically stationary, and for a long period prior to 1914 were well below their 1840 prices. In that state of affairs farmers were unable to appreciate the moral aspect of growing cash crops at a loss and instead they changed their methods—the Irish farmer is as ready to change his methods for good reasons as any other—and began to produce live stock and live stock products at a profit. This, I am informed, is highly immoral. It may be, but it is real, good business, and any attempts to force the Irish farmer to do otherwise is simply throwing sand against the wind.

An average increase of 100 gallons in the milk yield of our cows, which number about 1,250,000, raising the yield from its present figure of 400 to 500 gallons, would mean £2,500,000 in our exports of butter. An increase of 200 gallons converted into butter would mean £5,000,000. Similar increases are as easily possible in bacon, eggs and poultry. All that is required is fostering attention on the part of the State, and—much more important—more efficient methods in the production and marketing and more hard work on the part of the farmers. At present only from three to four acres of the average holding is tilled. An increase in the area under tillage on such a holding from, say, three or four to five or seven acres would effect all that is necessary for the purposes of the increases in our agricultural products which I have mentioned, and would not in any way interfere with the supply of grass for our summer farming. In this connection it must be remembered that Irish farmers will always find it necessary to import considerable quantities of feeding stuffs for the reason that compels the Danish farmer to do the same. Nature itself has provided one limitation to his capacity to produce all the meals he requires.

Protein food cannot be economically grown in this country. It must be imported. Neither can all the farmers grow economically all the carbohydrate meals which they require for pigs, cows, beef, etc. They can and ought to grow a much larger proportion. For instance, our imports of maize meal should be far less and our production of oats and barley for feeding should be far greater, and it was with this in view that I mentioned the increase in tillage of, say, from four to six acres. This would give the small farmer all the grain which he can produce economically on his land and, in addition, provide him with extra roots. Almost as important, however, as this increase in tillage is an improvement in the quality of our pastures, and this necessary improvement can be brought about by the average small farmer at a very small cost. It means a certain amount of inexpensive drainage and the intelligent use of fertilisers, which are now no more than 25 per cent. over their pre-war prices.

There is a further striking fact about our agricultural economy, and it is that 98 per cent. of our exports go to the one market—Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It has been pointed out quite rightly that this is not a healthy state of affairs, and that an attempt should be made to increase our output of industrial products and to find additional markets for our agricultural produce. There is no denying the soundness of the saying that "It is a mistake to have all your eggs in one basket," and this is undoubtedly the position both in regard to our total production and our exports. We cannot regard it as a dispensation of Providence which should not be altered that the Free State is almost entirely agricultural and entirely dependent on one market—the English market. Moreover, it is clear enough that the development of the home market affords the most fruitful alternative to the present position. On the other hand we must recognise the existing position, and when the maxim that "It is a mistake to have all your eggs in one basket" is quoted, an equally sound maxim can be quoted in reply, viz., that "You should not throw out the dirty water until you have got in the clean."

While we must aim at increasing our non-agricultural industries we must see to it that our enthusiasm for that end does not lead us to neglect the production on which the country depends at present, and while we are anxiously exploring alternative markets for our exports it is vital that we should not lose our existing market, and this is all the more necessary because we happen to have only one. This is not the place to enter into a discussion as to the conditions under which protection should be extended to the various non-agricultural industries, but as I am expected to deal generally with agricultural policy I must reluctantly refer to one aspect of the question, and I can only promise to be as brief as possible.

When it is pointed out that protection has a tendency—varying in degree with the particular article selected— to increase the cost of living and the cost of production to the farmer, and thereby to decrease his ability to produce and to hold its markets, some advocates of all-round protection express their readiness to meet the case by agreeing to protection for agricultural products also. It is necessary to state and to reiterate that this will not meet the case. It will only make it worse. We cannot protect our live stock and our egg trade, which amounts to 60 or 70 per cent. of our total agricultural production, by tariffs on imports, because, in fact, there are practically no imports of these articles.

In a normal year we produce about £10,000,000 worth of butter; we consume £5,000,000 at home; we export £5,000,000, and we complete our transactions by importing about £600,000 worth. If I am to take what has been said on this subject seriously, then apparently the ideal condition would be to continue to produce £10,000,000 worth; to export quantities amounting to only £4,200,000 instead of £5,000,000; to consume at home a quantity amounting to £5,600,000 instead of £5,000,000, and to import none. I would not regard this as a change for the better, but rather as a change for the worse.

Tariffs are admittedly only useful in so far as they increase production, and our aim should be to produce not £10,000,000 worth, but £15,000,000 worth of butter, and then to sell that production in the best market whether at home or abroad. This question of increasing production does not depend in the first instance on winter dairying, but on better cows and better creameries. Winter dairying on the one side and an average milk yield of 400 gallons per cow on the other is impossible except at an utterly uneconomic cost to the community. In such conditions we can no more compete with New Zealand and Australia, where butter is produced on grass and under summer conditions during our winter, than we can compete with these countries in the production of sugar from cane which will only grow in their warm climate instead of from beet which is suitable to ours. On the other hand, when we have a reasonable number of 800-gallon cows, then a small tariff would be sufficient to stop our very small imports, and when that time comes a tariff may be considered not from the point of view of keeping out the comparatively negligible amount of butter that comes in during winter, but rather from the point of view of the reactions of winter dairying on our production of calves, pigs, and poultry.

We produce in normal times about £7,000,000 worth of bacon; export £5,000,000; consume about £2,000,000 at home, and import £3,000,000. Here again the problem is not to divert some of our exports to the home market, but rather to increase our production, and no tariff which would not be utterly unfair to the community would effect this. This is the position in regard to beef, eggs, butter and bacon, and if this statement of the position is correct we should drop the notion of making a concession to farmers by protection for these articles. If, on the other hand, these considerations are unsound, it is due to the farming community that their unsoundness should be demonstrated before forcing protective tariffs for these articles on them.

With regard to wheat and flour; a tariff on wheat is not proposed. The proposal is a tariff on flour and a Mark Lane price for wheat. A tariff on flour will not help the farmer. It will help the mills. Neither is the proposal to guarantee the Mark Lane price for English wheat any advantage to the farmer. Roughly speaking, the farmer could get the Mark Lane price for wheat not only last year but since 1840, and it is just because he could get the Mark Lane price that the area under wheat for all Ireland has shrunk from 600,000 acres in 1840, when the Mark Lane price left a profit, to about 26,000 acres to-day, when the Mark Lane price leaves a loss. Wheat will be grown in Ireland as the cereal crop in the rotation on heavy land when this land is broken up, and then not for sale, but for use on the farm. With regard to the question of whether as a matter of national security a certain minimum acreage of wheat should be secured regardless of cost, this is essentially the same question as whether we should keep an army, and should be discussed in that way and not as a commercial proposition.

Having said so much, and I hope everyone will agree with this, I wish to affirm here definitely that all thinking farmers realise the advantages of developing non-agricultural industries; realise, further, that in certain cases and under certain conditions these could, and should, be encouraged by protective tariffs, and are willing to share their proper proportion of the cost of such tariffs. On the other hand, they expect that the community will also make a due contribution towards the maintenance and development of their particular industry upon which at present, and until our industries are multiplied by ten, the country depends, and in this connection they strongly resent being offered concessions which everyone knows to be illusory.

With regard to agriculture credit, I have to say first that this is a problem which must be handled very carefully. Credits which are either too extensive or on wrong lines do more harm than good. Extensive credits for the purpose of operating on a falling market are disastrous, and during the last three or four years I have regarded every day that passed without giving these credits as a day gained. Now, however, the problem is changing somewhat. Firstly, prices are becoming more or less stabilised, and secondly, people have begun to realise that even State loans must be repaid. There are at present extensive facilities for long term credits. Credits for land purchase operations are more extensive and favourable here than in any other country in the world. The Board of Works gives credits for farm buildings and drainage. The new Drainage Acts now in operation need no revision. It is only necessary to continue operating them at a reasonable speed. The Board of Works arrangements for farm buildings are, however, in the nature of the case, not satisfactory.

In a country of small farmers like this the minimum loan is too big, and the costs of administration are too high, mainly because the Board of Works must insist on land mortgage securities. I am satisfied that intermediate term credits for marketing, etc., as well as long term credits for buildings, etc., can only be done satisfactorily by some bank or institution set up for that special purpose. Such an institution with branches through the country existing for the sole purpose of meeting well-defined agricultural credits could administer them much more satisfactorily to all concerned than a Department of State, especially in view of the fact that it would be in closer touch with the borrower, and able to give its due weight to the most important security of all, that is to say, the character of the borrower. Special credit facilities should be given to farmers' organisations—creameries, egg-exporting societies, etc. The most serious defect in Irish agriculture is its lack of organisation. The creamery industry is fairly well organised, and during the years 1925 and 1926 there have been more than 20 creameries established in three or four counties of the South on an absolutely economic basis.

Would the Minister give an explanation of what he means by the establishment of these creameries on an absolutely economic basis?

Mr. HOGAN

What I had in mind is that it used to be quite common to say: "It is easy to put up creameries, but they will not be a success afterwards." These creameries were established and financed at very considerable sacrifice by the farmers. They began under the best of auspices, not having any big overdrafts or anything like that. They are all complying with the new provisions of the Dairy Produce Act, and they have taken the trouble to find efficient managers. They had to get money and to make sacrifices that they should not have been asked to make, and they got very little facilities in the way of reasonable credit, and that perhaps in the nature of the case is quite understandable. Even in the case of the creameries there is ample room for development and especially on the lines of federation of existing creameries for marketing purposes. Outside this industry the Irish farmer is unorganised both for purchase, production or marketing. A credit scheme which would give special facilities to farmers' societies, coupled with extended operations by the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, for which an increased grant of £6,000 is provided, ought to go a long way to alter this state of affairs.

During the last three years there has been a widespread tendency to hold up the Irish farmer as an individual who suffers from a double dose of original sin and Irish farming as the worst in Europe. The picture was kept constantly before our eyes of Irish agriculture on its last legs and of the Irish agriculturist as a shiftless individual who could only be kept in business by constant spoon-feeding and doles. We have of course still with us the inevitable small majority of disgruntled individuals who are making pitiable attempts to make Ireland as far as possible a paradise for wasters; people with grievances; people who are in debt and who do not intend to pay if they can avoid it; who owe arrears of rent, rates or taxes; whose bulls perhaps have been rejected; everybody with a bee in his bonnet; everybody whose ideal is to make money without working for it; all these are endeavouring to capitalise past discontents and present grievances, and so far as they can, are using the Press and the local bodies for that purpose. On the other hand, in this country the good farmer, the farmer who knows his own business—in other words, the majority of the farmers—do not either write to the papers or pass resolutions at local or other bodies: they stay at home and do their work. Unfortunately they are almost entirely unorganised. The result is that every mountebank with a bee in his bonnet claims to be a spokesman of agriculture and gets away with it, and we are treated to the shocking spectacle of so-called agricultural conferences solemnly deciding that the salvation of the Irish farmer consists in tariffs on everything, loans, subsidies and grants for everybody and a reduction in taxation, especially in the taxation of strong drink.

The real position is that the Irish farmer is, comparatively speaking, not prosperous; neither is the Irish businessman; neither is the farmer or businessman in England, Scotland, Denmark, Canada, or any of the other countries so often quoted. It is a question of degree, and the position in Ireland is the same as elsewhere—namely, that a certain percentage of the farmers are heavily in debt, while the big majority are either holding their own or more than holding their own. Prices broke suddenly in 1921, and continued to fall until 1925. The inevitable result of this in Ireland, as elsewhere, was that farmers lost a considerable proportion, and in some cases all they had made in the war period as did other people. The Irish farmer had, however, to contend with certain additional handicaps which did not exist elsewhere, that is to say, the Civil War in 1922 and 1923, and the bad seasons from the beginning of 1923 to June, 1925. The Danes are experiencing considerable depression at the moment, mainly, in my opinion, because their economy necessitates the winter production of butter. They will weather this and will in turn get the special advantages of their particular system. I have no hesitation in saying that if, in addition to the causes of depression that are common to Denmark as well as to ourselves, the Danes had had the luxury of civil war and then two particularly bad seasons, their condition now, unlike ours, would be something like bankruptcy.

The year 1925, for the reasons which I have mentioned, marked the lowest point of depression. Tillage had decreased to the smallest areas since 1840; the two bad seasons were certainly very strong contributing causes of this. Our production of bacon and butter had almost approached the same level. The decline in butter was mainly due to the bad seasons, the decline in bacon was due to a constantly recurring cause, namely, the fall in the price of pigs in 1923 and 1924. Breeding stocks were sold, and there was an acute shortage of pigs in 1925. The one item of our production which maintained a respectable level was our cattle and beef. Undoubtedly we have turned the corner. There is an increase in tillage practically all over the country, and the exports of all live stock and live stock products during the month of April, 1926, are higher than for the month of April, 1925. I venture to predict a considerable increase this year in the exports of live stock, of bacon and butter, and I believe the increase in egg production will at least be maintained.

I have mentioned that the export of cattle was steadily maintained in 1925. This is an interesting fact. I have given the figures often and they speak for themselves. They show an average export of between 750,000 and 800,000 for the last twenty years. They show that even during the war period the average was about 800,000. They vary by about a hundred thousand from year to year. During the year 1924 the export was practically 1,100,000 cattle from Ireland, and notwithstanding that enormous export, during the year 1925 there was an export of 780,000. In other words, the export of cattle in 1924 was greater than the exports of any year since 1904, with the exception of the export in 1913, when it was 1,109,000 cattle. Nevertheless the export of cattle in 1925 was greater than the years 1921, 1919, 1918, 1912, when the export was only 555,000. Prices were not so good in 1925. The fall still continued, but so far as numbers were concerned, having regard to the big export in 1924, the number of cattle exported was extraordinarily high. Now, in spite of this fact, which is undeniable, and which must have been known to everybody interested, all during the year 1925, and practically up to the present date, there was a widespread campaign aimed at showing that our export of cattle collapsed during the year 1925, and a case was made based on the allegation that Irish agriculture was collapsing also.

This campaign was ostensibly in support of the Irish farmer, but in reality it was directed to the English consumer, and it amounted to this: "Do not buy Irish cattle because of tariffs against English produce, because of the Shannon scheme, because of the teaching of Irish, because the Irish decline to have the same medical register as the English," etc., etc. Now that the campaign has failed and even the farmers who were taken in by it in the beginning see through it, there is no hesitation whatever to buy Irish goods in England. The English business man or farmer who wants Irish produce does not inquire whether the owner is an Irish speaker or not, does not enter into tariff questions which do not directly or indirectly affect the cost of the particular article which he is buying, and is quite unconcerned about the medical register. He is a businessman first and last and all the time and he considers just one question: "Am I getting value for my money?" If he finds he is he will buy; if he finds he is not, he will not. Our business is to give him and everybody else with whom we deal value for money, and that is the whole problem.

Considering historical circumstances the remarkable thing is that the Irish farmer is so efficient. Since 1840 he has hardly had even a single decade of normal times. The political struggle that went on without intermission between 1840 and 1918 centred around the land laws. During that period the conditions of the farmer gradually changed. He improved his position enormously and advanced a long way towards the owning of his land. On the other hand, the conditions of these times were not favourable to good farming. The agitations which took place in order to force down exorbitant rents tended to leave a tradition that the most important consideration for the farmer was the rent. The idea took root that low rents were much more important than good farming. The experience of the farmer in connection with arrears inevitably tended to lead him to take somewhat peculiar views, not only about arrears of rent, but also of arrears of other payments —payments to the State, to local authorities, etc. From 1908 to 1913 there was a short period of something like normal times. During that period the farmer gradually began to improve his methods, to attend to his proper business and to work harder. Membership of cow-testing associations, students at agricultural colleges, winter classes, all increased. The European War began in 1914, and from 1914 to 1918 was a period of complete demoralisation for farmers not only in Ireland but everywhere in Europe. The conditions of this period put a premium on bad farming and on dealing, as opposed to farming. There was no necessity to breed cattle of good quality, to keep high-yielding cows, to join cow-testing associations or to go to agricultural colleges—in other words, there was no necessity to work. The bad beast was as dear as the good and paid better. The bad cow fetched the same price as the good one. Everything paid, and the article on which the least attention and expense was spent paid best. Moreover, the conditions of the time gave rise to extravagance, irresponsibility, and general unsettlement. Then occurred the Revolution of 1921, and finally the Civil War of 1922-23. This Civil War of 1922-23 was about the most demoralising experience of the whole lot. During that period there was a deliberate attempt made to mobilise all the historical weaknesses of the rural community. The doctrine "Ireland is yours for the taking—take it," was explained, expounded, and understood to mean "If you are in debt, if you want money for pleasure or any other purpose, take the neighbour's land; take his money out of the bank; seize his cattle, and above all pay no rents, rates or taxes."

In view of the historical circumstances which I have mentioned, of the fact that the country was, at the beginning of that time without either a police force, a regular army, or a court system, and that farmers as well as all other classes were just beginning to feel the pinch due to the sudden break in prices in 1921, this was probably the most shameful and unpatriotic episode since the Union. The redeeming feature, however, is that the country, as a whole, and the farmers of the country in particular, refused to succumb to the temptation, and to-day all our agricultural institutions, schemes and activities are functioning more efficiently than ever before. There is an increase in the local rate for county schemes; there is an increase in the number of our cow-testing associations; new creameries are being built and equipped, and existing creameries are co-operating wholeheartedly with the Department of Agriculture in putting their houses in order; the number of farmers grading up their breeding stocks is increasing every month; credit societies are spreading, and will continue to spread. In a word, there is every indication that there is a real change of mind, that our long period of comparative irresponsibility has passed, and that our farmers fully realise that there is only one way to make money, and that is to earn it by organisation, efficiency and hard work.

The Minister has not made any special reference to horse-breeding schemes.

Mr. HOGAN

I did not want to overload the statement with details.

The statement made by the Minister, we must all agree, is very comprehensive. We might say that he has even been cruel in his examination of the agricultural position as it is to-day. He dealt with the position from the point of view of what education can do, what increased production can do, and what better credit facilities can do for agriculture, and, lastly, the way that the psychology of our agriculturists makes for success or failure in their efforts. We all agree that education should be, and must be, the foundation for progress, not in agriculture alone, but for progress in any existing industry or any new industry that may be brought into existence in this State. We are particularly glad that there has been such an appreciation on the part of the Ministry and such a recognition on the part of the Minister for Finance that there has been a decision arrived at to establish a Faculty of General Agriculture in the University College, Dublin, and a Faculty of Dairy Science in the University in Cork. We are a queer people in this country and we are, undoubtedly, influenced to a very considerable extent as to what policies we are to pursue in the future and what our callings are to be, by the status of the industry, the tone of the industry and the people engaged in it, and I have no hesitation in saying that the system of education in this country, up to the present, was such, and the work of our universities was of such a character—people came away from them with a peculiar prejudice, and with, we might almost say, an unnatural outlook as regards people brought up in an agricultural country —that it was rather difficult to get the farmer himself to appreciate the fact that he was a very important entity in the life of the State, and that his industry was the biggest thing in the life of the nation. The professions were filled by the very best brains of the community, drawn very largely from our better-class farmers, and from young people from business, and it was accepted all round that only the worst-educated and the least capable individual in a family should continue to derive his living from the land. Undoubtedly the establishment of Faculties in our universities will have a toning-up effect, as far as our educational system is concerned, which was very badly required. The influence on the minds of young people who go into the universities to study under the professors of agriculture, the contact of the people studying for other professions will have such beneficial results that we will have an acceptance on the part of our technical advisors and on the part of men and women going into other professions that there is something in agriculture from the scientific point of view, and from the point of view of an industry with which it is creditable to be associated. These influences cannot but have a very beneficial effect on the industry as a whole, and they will be beneficial from the point of view of being an encouragement to the people who, up to the present we might almost say, have always been pushed into agriculture and kept in it only to be taken out when others wanted to take them out to use them for their own particular purposes. We welcome this step of the Minister. We hope for great things from it. The result, of course, will not be immediate; they will be for the future, but they will be beneficial results that will amply repay the nation for the money that will be spent.

I do not intend to go at any length into the statement made by the Minister. I feel that he has put into concrete form statements that have been made from these benches and repeated time after time. We feel in complete agreement with him when he states that, after education, in increased production we have a road to increased prosperity and to better times for the Irish farmer. It is not in order here to refer at any length to the position that we have been placed in, or that we might be placed in, if certain policies advocated by other people in this State, and in this Dáil, were to be carried into effect. But, unquestionably, if we are to have increased production here we will have it when our people appreciate the fact that it will pay to produce, and it will only pay to produce when the cost of production and the prices at which we sell will leave us a margin that will be ours and that will make us appreciate and understand that for the labour we have given we have something that we can hold.

The difficulties of the Irish farmer were never greater than at the moment in holding his own against competitors from other countries. We have undoubtedly been placed under disadvantages that many of our competitors have not had to labour under; they have had sympathetic governments of their own; they have had an opportunity of better systems, of education; they have been given an encouragement that no one can ever say we ever received, and handicapped as we have been, as we are to-day because of disabilities under which we have been labouring, we have to face agriculturists better organised than we, and we have to try to hold our own in the markets of the world under these conditions. It is difficult. In my opinion it is not going to be easier in the future. They, as well as we, are making efforts to improve, and we can only hope to hold our own against these people when we are producing at least as good an article and are able to sell that article as cheap as our competitors are. Our ability to sell as cheaply as the other individual will be at all times governed by the cost of production here, and the agriculturists of this State must always stand for the point of view that what will hamper them, what will increase in any way their costs of production, will at the same time place difficulties and obstacles in their way in trying to hold their own against competitors that they will not be able to overcome.

Any theorists, politicians or others who advocate the contrary are not on sound ground, and the acceptance of a policy that will not recognise that as a fundamental fact will leave this country backward. We have, it is true, at the moment but one market. It would be better if we had two or three or if we had alternative markets. We have not. While we are in this not very satisfactory position let no steps be taken, let nothing be done that will make it more difficult for us to hold our place in that market. If we are pushed out of that market will someone point to another country or another people to whom we can turn and who are prepared to take our surplus products to-day and pay us as good a price as we are getting at the moment? While that alternative market cannot be shown to us, while it is not open to us, let those who would take action that would make our hold on our present market more difficult pause and consider. Undoubtedly our farmers will produce more when they find it pays them to produce more.

The Minister in his statement pointed out that since 1840 the farmer in this country year after year always produced what it paid him to produce. We have figures here showing the prices of agricultural produce from the year 1840, and taking one year after another it has been always shown that the price in any one year decided the farmer's agricultural policy for the following year. It is only by pursuing that policy that the Irish farmer has been able to hold his farm. I say the farmer, just like any other individual, will produce crops that will give him the most adequate recompense for his labour, and undoubtedly accepting that as being sound policy and good business there are possibilities and great possibilities for our farmers producing heavier crops and better yields. I am not going to say that the Minister is absolutely correct when he assumes that an increased milk yield will give us an increased income, based on the figures of our income for butter at the present time. I think there are possibilities that an increased yield may to some extent reduce the price we have to receive. I think that will be generally accepted. It may not, but the experience is that a commodity produced in abundance is generally at a lower price than when that commodity is scarce.

I think very few will question that the price at which pork stands at the moment would not be so high if we were producing three or four times the quantity. It would take some argument to prove to me that our products of pork to-day are not low because the price for pork last season was low. I think the people in whose hands the Irish farmers are and who regulate the price of pork are to some extent responsible for the policy of many of the farmers in reducing the number of pigs. They are going back again.

On the question of increased production the Minister suggested they intended setting up what may be termed a publicity section in the Department; the intention was to utilise the Press.

Mr. HOGAN

That scheme has not been examined to any great extent yet by the Minister for Finance. I merely foreshadowed it as a possible development.

The Minister threw it out as a suggestion. I want to support the idea that there should be a publicity section. Last year, from another angle, I suggested the acceptance of that policy on the part of the Minister. I would again urge on the Minister that if this matter is under serious consideration and is likely to be made operative in the near future, he should give consideration to the views I expressed last year. If the Minister hopes to increase the knowledge of Irish farmers, if he is anxious to encourage increased tillage, heavier production of crops on the same area, and if he hopes to impress them with better methods of marketing, he will necessarily have to give consideration to the means that will bring about the most beneficial results.

The Minister has pointed out that he would have to increase the provision for agricultural instruction by £100,000 to achieve certain ends. He says the publicity section may cost from £5,000 to £8,000. The Minister should consider what results will accrue. If he thinks that by means of articles in the Press he is going to impress farmers to the extent that they will change their methods in certain respects and do things they did not do before, I doubt very much that he will meet with much success. We heard statements made from the Government benches to the effect that people down in the country were not influenced by a certain campaign carried on in the Press. If these statements were sincere—I have no doubt they were believed by the Ministers who made them—it should be considered whether articles written in the Press in the way the Minister contemplates will tend to encourage farmers or influence them in any way.

I want to impress my point of view on the Minister. I doubt very much if any very satisfactory results will come from such a policy. Many farmers, unfortunately, had limited opportunities at primary schools; their education was not such as would equip them so as to enable them to make the most of what might be written for their welfare. If you desire to impress them and depend on the use you can make of weekly newspapers or the daily Press, it will be slow work. That system would not, in my opinion, impress one in fifty, and from the point of view of quick results it will not be satisfactory. I think the Minister should consider whether his educational policy should not be of such a character as would impress farmers by enabling them to see things done.

Mr. HOGAN

Educate them without giving them any trouble.

I think it is advisable that they should be enabled to see what can be done as well as to read what can be done. The Minister is apparently sceptical of the possibilities in this respect. I have no hesitation in saying that what the farmer sees he believes. He realises that it is an accomplished fact, because someone else has done it, and even though they witness a thing many farmers will be dubious as to whether they can succeed if they make the effort. We have a good example of that. Let us go back to the days when agricultural instructors first urged our farmers to spray. We know what the farmers thought, and we know how many years it took to convince them that spraying was good. In the end they all accepted it. Had they been told about it, and had they been given nothing but written matter, I believe that hundreds and thousands of them would be unconvinced to-day.

We cannot wait until new generations come through the primary schools, in the programme of which rural science will in future occupy a place. We cannot wait until the youths of the rising generation have got into the possession of farms and have started improving farming methods, getting better yields, and adopting better methods of marketing. The Minister must deal with the people who are actually in possession of the land; let him follow a policy that will be effective. I am not convinced that the Minister's proposal in regard to a publicity section will bring good results. If he is prepared to spend money, let him spend it in one or two counties on something that will have a real effect.

Mr. HOGAN

In what manner should the money be spent?

I urged on the Minister the employment of the cinematograph, which, in my judgement, is one of the most beneficial methods that could be employed to educate our farmers. I am absolutely convinced the Minister could in this way organise a system of education that would very nearly pay its way and, beyond question, would bring real beneficial results. What the Minister has suggested will bring poor results, and will be very slow. If, on the other hand, the Minister is prepared to increase the number of agricultural instructors it is going to cost a considerable sum of money; no doubt good results will eventually accrue to the nation. I urge further consideration of that. I believe money spent in that direction would be well spent. From my experience of county instructors up to the present I think that a county instructor can only attend to one class, in one season, in a parish or part of a parish. He will give a number of lectures, in the winter months, and attend to outdoor work in the summer months. But there are parishes in a county that would not see the agricultural instructor once in a lifetime. With such a policy as that we may wait for results. Even with the best condition agricultural instructors will not succeed when they have to try to educate. We must wait a lifetime. The Minister's policy in this shows there is to be no great change.

Now, in the matter of credits, and a better system of credits, we have been pleading for these. May I say we are glad to have from the Minister the intimation that there is to be recognition for that policy as stated here and repeated as sound and essential.

Mr. HOGAN

Do not misquote me. What I said was that I regarded every day that passed without giving credits as good.

But you also said that they were necessary and required.

Mr. HOGAN

At a time.

So that the point is as to whether they were essential twelve months ago or to-day. The real question is whether they are sound or not and whether this policy should be carried into effect. Whether an effort was made for 12 months or two years does not matter; whether we could have better credit facilities than we enjoy at present is the real matter. The fact is that for the betterment of agriculture, better credit facilities are absolutely essential. Even if these credit facilities were available twelve months ago, no one here urged that credit should be given to men or to any organisation that was not going to make very good use of these credit facilities. We are not prepared to urge that at any time. When we pleaded for sympathetic consideration twelve months ago we did so because we felt that there were many industrious men throughout the country whose possibilities of carrying on were very seriously prejudiced because of the lack of this policy of credit facilities. Their position has not improved in the meantime. Very optimistic as the Minister's statement is, he knows as well as we do that the condition of the farmers in the country is by no means satisfactory, to say the least of it. I agree, from my own experience, that there has been an increase this year in tillage. Our people are working hard, and they do not know what the results of their labours this spring may bring them. Many men have been hampered in their production because they had not the necessary capital to enable them to produce. There are many farms carrying less stock than they could economically carry. The owners of these farms are industrious men. It is regrettable it should be so. The productivity of these farms is prejudiced because of that fact. If credit facilities were available that would not be the position, and the sooner these men are able to enjoy the opportunity of having money, at a reasonable rate of interest, to invest in their farms and to run their farms more economically the better it will be for the State.

Now a word on the psychology of the people, on which the Minister dwelt at considerable length. I do not know whether we are to take it that the Minister thinks that all good farmers should stay at home, do their own business, and not pass resolutions. I do not know what conclusions to draw from that. If it were to be followed to its logical end there would be no farmers in this Dáil; the farmer would be at home minding his own business. Who would look after the business of the State, one may ask? The local bodies would not be attended to either; the farmers would be merely minding their own business at home.

Mr. HOGAN

I merely stated the facts.

Are we to take it that Deputy McKenna is a model farmer?

We are not prepared to accept the Minister's statement as a correct representation of the facts. We believe the Minister is something of a farmer himself. Some say he is not even a bad farmer. I think the Minister should consider exactly what are the implications of his statement.

Mr. HOGAN

The implications are what I said. The implications are that the real working farmer stays at home and minds his own business. Unfortunately, he is not organised for the purposes of his business. The results are to be seen in what we have around us and what we see in the Press. Every mountebank claims to be representative of agriculture and to speak for it and gets away with that idea.

Does the Minister mean that every representative of agriculture is a mountebank?

Mr. HOGAN

I did not say that. Deputies should take what I really said; some of them are very sensitive about what is said.

I want this matter cleared up. If the Minister's policy were accepted no farmer Deputy would come here to this Dáil. I do not know whether that is what the Minister wants.

Mr. HOGAN

I was talking of organisation for economic, and not for political, purpose. They are two different things.

They are not.

Let me say if I had a point to make and a complaint to make, against our farmers, it would be that many, even of what the Minister terms good farmers, will not come and organise for economic purposes.

Mr. HOGAN

I contended that all the time and regretted it; that is the whole case.

I do not see any point in the Minister making the statement that the proper thing for good farmers to do is to stay at home and mind their own business.

Mr. HOGAN

I never made that statement. I will read my statement on that point for the Deputy if he likes.

The Minister suggested that good farmers should stay at home to look after their own affairs and should not bother about passing resolutions.

Mr. HOGAN

I said unfortunately it is not organised.

Well, that is a qualification. I agree that we have very many farmers who remain on their own farms; they are very good men, and we find it difficult to get them together for the purpose of farming an organisation from a purely economic point of view. The Minister shrugs his shoulder at that.

Mr. HOGAN

There are no economic organisations; they are all political, with the exception, perhaps, of the cow-testing association.

I have some experience of creameries and egg-marketing societies and cow-testing associations.

Mr. HOGAN

I have named them.

Did not somebody tell us that the Press made some comment about the efforts of the organiser of cow-testing associations in, I think, Deputy Gorey's constituency some time ago, to the effect that those efforts were not particularly successful? These things are regrettable. The Minister should urge that good farmers should not remain at home but should enter into various activities in the country and give the benefit of their experience and their knowledge, and offer advice in so far as it can help to better the position of the State. That is what makes it extremely difficult for people to go amongst farmers and get them to make efforts in their own interest and bring them to the success we would wish. Under the conditions that existed, many farmers felt that the right thing to do was to keep out of every movement and mind their own business. Many farmers succeeded because they did that. The farmers must now pursue another policy. They must not only do their work well at home but come out and take their share in the management of the affairs of the country in every possible sphere. Sometimes I feel that the different political parties should preach the doctrine that whatever political views our farmers have, they should come out and do what, in their view, is the best thing in the interests of the State. It is not right, and it should be accepted that one body of people are the only people capable of managing the affairs of the country politically.

Mr. HOGAN

May I repeat that I was not referring to political organisations. I was dealing with the Department of Agriculture and leaving out politics.

The Minister brought in quite a lot about resolutions and politics. He was a little complex and perhaps vague and one can only guess at what he was driving.

Mr. HOGAN

My statement was anything but vague.

I leave it at that. On the whole, I think the Minister struck an optimistic note. He pointed out how agriculture can be made a better paying proposition than it is at present. He indicated that he was making some further concessions in the matter of live stock in the different counties. Education is the dominant note in his policy. I am in general agreement with the statement the Minister has made. The Department of Agriculture, from my experience, is giving satisfaction. The officers of that Department in the country are on the whole a capable body who understand their work and are giving good service. I feel that if we had more of these men the results from the point of view of productivity would more than compensate for the increased expenditure. I urged last year that the Minister's policy in every county should be the taking over and management of a farm on scientific lines and as a trained agriculturist should manage it. I want to hear from the Minister what his policy on that is now. I am firmly convinced that what our farmers see demonstrated they will believe more firmly than what they are told or what they read. I want to urge the Minister to adopt the policy of teaching the farmers through what they can see. The Minister knows enough of the farmers to understand that if there is to be real success those are the means he must employ.

Mr. HOGAN

I am not quite sure as to what the Deputy is asking me to do in connection with the farms.

On this Vote last year I urged that in every county there should be, under the management of the agricultural instructor therein, a farm or a number of farms. It would be difficult to have more than three or four farms in a county, but there should be a few farms under the supervision and management of the instructor, the owner of the farm co-operating with him. If it were publicly known that this farm was being so managed, the results of that management would be read by the farmers in the county, and the farmers would learn a lesson which they cannot learn by lectures or leaflets. The Minister, up to the present, has not carried that scheme into effect. In that respect and in respect of the point dealing with education, I urge the Minister to do something he has not done up to the present.

The Minister's speech on the whole is something to be grateful for. It will gratify the farming community. If necessary, it will convince our farming community that the Department of Agriculture is alive to the needs of the occupation it has been set up to cater for and is trying to help it. The Minister has referred to the war periods through which we have passed. He said that it was a wonder that the farmer did as well as he did during those periods. To a large extent that is true. The minds of our young people were, in great measure, concentrated on politics. Every effort was made to draw them away from the work they should be engaged at and to divert their minds to politics. I am sorry to say that even yet efforts are being made to flog this dead political horse. So far as I can see there will be very little result. That horse is dead.

During the war our farmers were induced to sell everything for which they could get a good price. The margin between the price of a good beast and a bad one was considerable, and the inducement was there to sell the best. As a result the very best was sold. I do not complain about that, except where it affected our breeding stock of cows, and to a lesser extent our horses. I allude principally to cows. A great many of the best cows were sold, and that left this country with a reduced number of cows of quality. It was only the educated and intelligent farmer who held on to the best of his stock, The man who did not realise what he was doing sold his best stock and kept the worst. I assert that there are more cows in the country now than in 1925, and there were more cows in it last year than in 1924. I tried to find out how things were in other countries. I know that there are considerably more cows in the country now than there were last year, and also that they are of an improved quality. Some means should be devised to teach the farmer the difference between keeping a good animal and a bad animal. It is a very ordinary thing in the country to have a cow that gives 400 gallons. At the present price of sixpence a gallon that would bring in a total income of about £10. But an 800 gallon cow would bring in £20, so that there is £10 difference between a good cow and a bad cow. The difference in the price of the two animals in March or May would be about £5, and for the sake of that £5 you lose a gift of £5 the first year and £10 the succeeding year. That position is not put before the farmers clearly. Leaflets will not do it, and the publication the Minister referred to will not do it unless some other steps are taken.

Mr. HOGAN

What other steps?

Commonsense, if you can get it.

I understood that the argument adduced by the Minister and supported by Deputy Baxter was that if you put before the farmers a proposition which will result in a profit they inevitably follow that process.

Yes, and I say that the best method of doing that is not by leaflets or publications but the way we advocated last year and the year before, demonstration farms where beasts are kept. If the Minister has any doubts on that point I will tell him what my impressions are after a visit yesterday to the Department's farm in Glasnevin, where I saw gathered a herd whose average was 850 gallons. I confess that I learned more during that visit in one hour than I learned all my life from leaflets. I think my experience will be that of the average man in the country. If the Minister wants results he must show the people what is being done. The best results will not be got from reading. If the Minister is going to embark on this campaign of publicity, for the purpose of educating our people, I think I can promise him beforehand that it will not go very far. We have any amount of agricultural publications, and articles in the local Press and sometimes in the daily Press. All these articles are read, but what good have they done? How much further will the new method go? I do not think it will go any further than we have gone already. There are plenty of publications with good articles and the new articles will not be any better. At any rate we do not see much result from them.

What we want is more technical education. It is all very well to talk about what should be done, but it is different where farming conditions cannot be carried on with some degree of comfort. What I am referring to is the bad lay-out of some farms. I do not know how the people exist in some of these places. Looking over a well laid out farm and a badly laid out farm one cannot wonder at the results. A little technical education would improve a lot of these bad lay-outs. To be effective the education that I speak of must be afforded to the young people through the only means we have, winter technical classes.

Mr. HOGAN

Are you prepared to pay the price?

We are prepared to pay a good deal.

Mr. HOGAN

I have given you the figure.

We are prepared to pay a good deal, because we know that in that is the only hope. The young people on the farm must be educated to do their own work so that it can be done at small cost. Small cost is a first essential, because there is no capital. They must, almost in every case, be able to do the work for themselves. Small cost is the key of the whole situation. The Minister has talked about agricultural conferences. He made some remarks about resolutions and people not minding their own business. He said that the best men mind their own business and nothing else. To that, some exception has been taken on these benches. I do not know what the Minister meant.

Mr. HOGAN

He meant exactly what he said.

I do not know whether he referred to people elected to represent agriculture or to people who claim to represent agriculture without having been elected. One thing I do know is that anybody claiming to represent agriculture must have a mandate from those he claims to represent. He must be elected to represent them. We do not want any more of these self-elected people. They must be elected, though I do not care who elects them—even if they are elected by the agriculturists of Killester. We have no objection to market gardeners having a representative here, but we do object to market gardeners representing us, or claiming that they are tillage farmers. They are market gardeners, pure and simple, and they should be elected as market gardeners. They have no claim to speak for agriculture. The Minister's speech, undoubtedly, was an ambitious one. It ought to capture the country. It is coming at an opportune time. It will all come into effect in the year 1927, and in that year we will have an election.

Mr. HOGAN

What does the Deputy mean?

We were asking for a considerable amount of money last year and we got none. Next year we are going to get a considerable amount and we are also to have an election.

Mr. HOGAN

I spoke of the amount of money on my Estimates at the moment.

Mr. HOGAN

The Supplementary Estimates constitute a big amount.

Mr. HOGAN

The Supplementary Estimates will be introduced immediately. I was not speaking of what we will do in 1927.

Evidently the Minister had not thought of the Supplementary Estimates when he was putting down the items in this Estimate.

Mr. HOGAN

The Deputy should not jump to conclusions. The Supplementary Estimates were with the Minister for Finance for three months before these estimates were published.

Why are they not included then?

Mr. HOGAN

During that time discussions went on with the Minister for Finance. Decisions were reached in regard to some of the items of extra expenditure asked for and they appear on the Estimates as the Deputy will see if he goes through the expenditure and compares this year's figures with last year's figures. There were some matters outstanding. The Minister for Finance explained that he had given an undertaking to the Dáil last year that he would publish his estimates early so as to enable Deputies to have them in hands before discussion of the Budget. Consequently, he had to publish my estimates and to include in them only items on which decisions had been come to up to the date of publication. He gave me an undertaking which he honoured that we would continue the discussions on what had not been decided at that time. Then we got those decisions.

Let us depart from that. The Minister objects to political organisations of farmers. I wonder would we have all those Estimates were it not for the inspiration given by such organisations?

Mr. HOGAN

If I objected to political organisations of farmers I should be objecting to the biggest farmers' party in this Dáil, that is the Cumann na nGaedheal party.

We are getting along. I wonder is it confined to the farming element in the Cumann na nGaedheal party? If it were not for the inspiration the Minister and his party is getting from our side of the House his Estimates would not be as they are at present. We take considerable credit for the Minister's outlook and the speech he has made, also for the favourable Estimate he has put before us.

I should like to bring one point before the House in connection with the educating of farmers. Deputy Baxter mentioned cinematographs. I consider that the Dublin Spring Show and the many other shows in Ireland should be attended by every farmer in Ireland. They can there learn everything that will enable them to develop the industries of the country. They can there examine the many resources of the country, and I do not think the farmers will gain as much by literature as by reading the various statements made. I was delighted at the last Spring Show. I hope it will be developed in the future and that people from all over the country will be brought there as well as people in Dublin, because I believe the future of this country will largely depend on persons representing the agricultural interests of the country. The last Spring Show was a great success and 53,000 people saw the great benefit that could be gained from developing the resources of the country.

I do not see how this discussion is going to be completed in three hours. The Minister opened up a wide vista of dispute. He ranged right across the whole question of agriculture, and brought in certain tariff proposals camouflaged by the idea that he was a free trader. Eventually he gave us a rehash of the statistical reviews of the last twenty years. I am in agreement with a good deal of what the Minister said, but there seems to be an idea here that the farmer is not a human being. That is not so. It is his business to make farming pay. He will produce what ever pays him most, and there is no use in talking of teaching him this, that, or the other thing. he has to keep his family, and pay his way, and make the best of conditions. This talk about education is all wrong. The farmer has very little to learn even from your instructors. We are selling cattle in the markets of the world. The production of cattle is suitable to the country, and the efforts of the Department to make us rear better producing cows is all in the right direction. That is the only policy on which we can carry on in the future. If you were to divide our exports into figures, cattle would be represented by 4, butter would be represented by 1, bacon by 1, and cereals, wool, etc., by 1, the whole eight representing £32,000,000. That gives an idea of our activity in the markets of the world. The whole economy should be in the home farm to enable us to improve our cattle. We should have better tillage in the home farm to enable us to carry cattle through the periods when we have no feeding on the land. It will be argued against us that we have developed a grass mentality, neglected tillage, and so on. We have produced whatever paid us best, and while you would see if you compared Denmark with this country from 1846 that the curve in the price of wheat has been downward here, in Denmark it has always been above the basic price in 1846. I cannot understand how in this country our prices based on world prices fell right down while in Denmark they maintained the price of wheat above the basic price in 1846. I cannot understand the reason for that. Wheat growing was given up because it did not pay. Store cattle paid. We produced store cattle, and that is why our farming is as it is to-day. I do not agree with the Minister about the 400 gallon cow. The average would be about 500 gallons. These 400 gallon cows are extinct.

Mr. HOGAN

500 gallons, including heifers.

The first year a cow is in calf she does not yield in her lactation period what she yields normally. Out of five animals producing milk one would be a heifer. Therefore their average would not affect the gross. The position is this: we would keep more cows but there is no profit in producing milk at fivepence or sixpence. That is only a bare living. It is not remunerative, and, even though we have land which is suitable for milk production, we have to produce something that will pay better. If we could get sevenpence for our milk all the year round there would be cows go leor in a few years. I agree that we would get a better living if we had 800-gallon cows. The Department of Agriculture is acting properly in developing that side of the industry so as to get from the same number of animals an increased production. There is not much hope for a large production of milk. The tremendous increase in dairy herds south of the Equator and the Antipodes shows that we cannot produce butter under winter conditions to compete with that produced in those places in summer. There is a great increase in production in the Argentine, New Zealand, Australia, and now in South Africa, and I am inclined to think, owing to the causes I have just mentioned, that the dairying industry in Denmark will fail.

In regard to the establishment of faculties of agriculture in Cork and Dublin, I believe that they are very necessary, but the mentality of young students shows that their desire is to get educated but not, unfortunately, to go back to their fifty-acre farms to work. They prefer to get a job, to become a professor, or to become an instructor under a county committee of agriculture. That is not the proper spirit. The aim of these students should be to go back to their farms and become models for their neighbours. In order to achieve that object, I would advocate some means by which young men who do not what jobs when their education is finished could be got back to their farms. Students should be encouraged to attend the courses in connection with the faculties of agriculture rather than those connected with the medical profession or the Church. Our bias must be in the direction of giving these young men a university education, not for the purpose of filling jobs, but to go back to their fifty or sixty acre farms and there show the results of their education. If you can bring that about by any scheme you will be doing the right thing. There is another point which I would like to address to the Minister. Men engaged in the production of milk are of two minds. Take the case of two farmers, each with fifty acres. One considers that the best results are to be obtained by not breaking up the land but by attending to the pastures, by rooting out the moss in the autumn, and so forth. In that way he believes that his land will carry the greatest stock. The other man goes in for a mixed system in the belief that it is better than that of his neighbour.

I have studied the matter very closely, but I am not yet able to say which man is working on the right lines. It would be well if the Minister set up an experiment by which, in one instance, the grass would be given every advantage by the use of artificials and everything else and see whether the economy in connection with that farm would be greater than that on the other farm, where there is a mixed system of agriculture. That point is very debatable amongst people who are trying to devise the best way of conducting their business. I am talking of cases in which men are engaged in milk production, and I want to know what is the maximum production per acre. A farmer is regarded as being a good farmer if he produces one gallon of milk per day per acre. I want the Minister to try and get his instructors to get these things into the minds of the farmers. These are some of the things which should have the attention of research students. I want to know what is the maximum production per acre.

Mr. HOGAN

Any man could tell you that.

What do you consider is the maximum per acre per day?

Mr. HOGAN

It depends on the land and the cow.

I am talking of a man who has everything of the best. What would be the maximum?

Mr. HOGAN

I could not tell you.

There you are, that is the point. You said that everyone knew. It is a question in connection with which there should be research in your model farms. I have been engaged at agriculture practically all my life, and I believe that a man who can secure a production of a gallon of milk per acre per day is doing all right. If the Minister can show me how to do better I will then say that he is working on the right lines. He will also be on right lines if he gets the farmers' sons to go back from the university colleges either in Cork, Dublin, or anywhere else and work on the land and prove themselves object lessons to their neighbours. We do not want them to become professors. There are too many professors.

Deputy Cooper has some motions down to reduce the Estimate, but that would be quite intolerable and a wrong policy to adopt. We are in agreement with the Minister's policy. These productive schemes for which the money is put forward are to our advantage and to the advantage of the country. The more he can educate us and the better the methods he can show us the more money we will be willing to grant him next year, or any other year. The question of credits has been touched on. I remember during the fluke debates——

That is the right word.

——when we were urging the Minister to give us more money we were told that the better way to deal with the situation was to establish agricultural credit societies. The Minister said that these societies were spreading, but he did not say to what extent.

Mr. HOGAN

I would be delighted to give that to the Deputy, but we will have another debate on that.

I am very pleased to hear that these societies are spreading, and the question of credit deserves the closest application. I am not in favour of widespread credit; I am in favour of credit in certain cases where it would be reproductive, but I do not propose to give my views on that now. I am in favour of the Minister's policy; I am satisfied that it is the right policy and that it will give good results.

I listened to the Minister's statement with pleasure and agreed with a great part of it. His schemes for improving the marketing of eggs and butter have undoubtedly been endorsed by the whole country. Everyone has seen the success that has crowned his efforts with regard to eggs. As he said, Irish eggs to-day are fetching top prices in the English market, and he hopes that the same will soon apply in the case of butter. That is very good. I am also greatly interested in his efforts to direct the studies of our universities in agriculture, and I am sure that the country will approve of his great scheme. I am sure that one of the things that has helped to starve agriculture in Ireland was that the scientific genius of the country was not directed towards its improvement. Other countries were able to give their ablest men an education that will advance agriculture. They were able to make experiments with regard to wheat and other matters that were of great use to them. Certain types of wheat and other products are more adapted to certain climates than others, and the experiments carried out in the universities have often proved very helpful in that and in other directions.

I listened also with the greatest interest to the Minister's explanation of what is being done to improve the breeds of stock, and in that direction also a great deal of success has been achieved. The proposal to enlarge the schemes and to introduce more pedigree stock next year will meet with the approval of the whole country. In the concluding part of his speech the Minister expressed a great deal of optimism, but I regret I cannot join with him in that. No one going through the country can fail to be impressed by the great depression that prevails in every industry. The other night here the leader of the Business Party expressed the greatest pessimism on his side of industry, and everywhere you find the greatest depression. You find it in the steady stream of emigration that still goes on, the saddest evidence that any man could have. Go to any railway station in the west of Ireland and see the fathers and mothers parting with their sons, who are leaving a land in which they could not get a living, a land with only 12 per cent. of the soil tilled, and the rest either under grass or waste. That is not an encouraging state of affairs.

What is wrong with the country? Is the soil bad? We have the most fertile soil in Europe. Are the breeds of stock defective and inferior? We have the best breeds in Europe, and I say that we have as industrious and as hardworking a farming class as there is in Europe, or in America either. Must there not be something wrong when, with all these factors that go to create wealth, we have every evidence of poverty, and people flying out of the country? Deputy Baxter spoke of the need for technical education. There are 29,000 people, highly technically trained in agriculture, leaving the country yearly. The "Irish Times" cure for the evil is to educate them more highly. There is something wrong. Let us look to Denmark. Is the land better? It is not. Are the breeds of stock better? They are not; they are inferior. Are the people better? They are not. But Denmark has one thing that Ireland has not. She has two markets. She has the British market, as we have, and no one who suggests anything in the way of tariffs proposes to close a single door to that market. Denmark has not alone the British market to fall back upon, but a valuable home market. The population of Denmark is 3,000,000, the same as that of the Saorstát. One million is engaged in agriculture and more than a million in industry. She has tariffs, and they have not proved to be hurtful to her; they give her an alternative market.

The Minister for Lands and Agriculture cannot impose tariffs.

The Minister cannot impose agricultural tariffs, needless to say.

He can recommend them.

The Minister spoke about wheat. He said that we have to recognise the disadvantages under which the country suffers in the way of climate, and he accounted in that way for the great decline in the acreage under wheat. He also referred to the fact that we must take note of the advance of science in the way of steam, and of the great lines of ships that shorten the distance between one country and another. We have the same climate as Great Britain.

Mr. HOGAN

No.

Well, while the Minister differs with me on that point, I cannot accept that there is any great difference between the climate of the Saorstát and the climate of Great Britain, taking it from one end of the land to the other. And for every acre of wheat that we grow they grow in Great Britain, not ten or fifty, but a hundred. I maintain that the climate of both countries is sufficiently alike for me to contend that we can grow wheat in this country as well as in England, and grow it as well as it was grown in this country 50 or 60 years ago. And because of the facts that I have mentioned, continual emigration and lack of employment in the country, I regret that I cannot share in the optimism of the Minister. I agree with all that he has done and proposes to do to increase the income of the farmer. And when the farmers and the Minister talk about increased production I am with them there. I am with the Minister in the proposal to bring in science to aid the farmer to the fullest extent. But it must be recollected that the farmer only passes the farm to one son, and the other sons and daughters must be provided for, too. But there is no clash of interests properly looked at between the agricultural side and the industrial side. They should be two halves of a complete whole, and there should be no antagonism between them. To say that agriculture is our main industry is to say a truth. But it is also true to say that it is not flourishing, and I contend that it can never properly flourish until there is a system of national economy under which it will be protected in the same way as agriculture in other countries.

A very successful conclusion to a speech that was all the time out of order.

I hope to be out of order too. I agree with what Deputy Baxter said, that national farms or a system of small farms worked on that basis throughout the country is absolutely essential. It is far better than a university training that we hear so much about. Now I am tempted to make a suggestion. In my district we have a splendid farm of 1,000 acres of the best land in the country.

Cork, of course. It is on the borders of Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick, and within easy distance of these counties. I am a border man. That farm is in the hands of the Government at present. It will cost nothing to take it—there is only the transfer from the Ministry of Defence to the Ministry of Lands and Agriculture.

Turning swords into ploughshares.

This is not Kilworth Camp at all. I assure you that you have no land in Kildare like it. I know that you have a lot of land in Kildare, too, that was once worked by the military, but that is now going to waste. I am certain it would be a great national asset if this place that I mention or some other places like it, were taken over by the Department for Lands and Agriculture. I would also suggest to the Minister the advisability of considering a scheme for the better housing for the poorer farmers. If the Minister would make provision in his estimate for the better housing of the poorer farmers and the giving of a subsidy for the erection of dairies and out-houses it would be a very good investment for the country. The Minister for the past couple of years has been introducing and getting passed legislation for the improvement of dairy products and the regulations made under this legislation cannot be put into effect without the provision of better farm buildings. I am certain that it is a great hardship and it will be a great hardship to fine these poor people for not complying with regulations unless they are first in a position to put their farm buildings in order and make them so as to be able to carry out the regulations. That is the reason why I suggest subsidies for farm buildings.

As regards the Minister for Lands and Agriculture and his staff, I believe they are doing a great deal for the country and they deserve the thanks of the Dáil for the work they are doing. They are certainly giving good value for the salaries they are paid, no matter what other people may say about them. I am sorry the Minister is not present to hear me. I would like to urge on the Minister this suggestion of national farms throughout the country. This is a scheme that would be a great asset to the people in the counties I mention, Limerick. Tipperary, Cork and Waterford. If you take them out, the remainder of Ireland is hardly worth talking about.

I intend to say a few words on quite a different subject to the subjects that have been discussed up to now. I intend to deal with the item under sub-head O 1.

The Deputy will have to wait until we come to the sub-heads. There is an amendment down to sub-head F which must come before sub-head O. The Deputy can take up this matter later on. He will get an opportunity in due course.

I have no complaint to make against the Department of Agriculture, except in so far as I am informed as to how the moneys have been allocated to private agricultural schools. I do not know the truth of the information at my disposal, but I am informed that——

Does not this come on under the sub-heads?

That matter is under sub-head F. We are now on the main question.

At this stage of the debate I do not think that too much time should be taken up in dealing with the main question. At the same time I feel that as agriculture is such an important subject a certain degree of latitude should be given on the discussion of general principles that would not be given on other Votes. I urge that point in view of the vast importance of the industry and so that we may arrive at a policy which we all hope will lead to the future development and prosperity of agriculture. With regard to the Minister's statement, I agree with most of the facts stated by him, but with some of his minor points I disagree. I should add, too, that with one or two of his major points I disagree. I disagree with the Minister's outlook on the question of protection as it affects agriculture. I agree that protection cannot be applied effectively to agricultural products, but I think that anything in the nature of a general tariff or large partial tariffs will react to the detriment of agriculture.

We will have this tariff question discussed on the Finance Bill next Thursday.

I am afraid, A Chinn Comhairle, you did not hear the Minister speaking.

I did not, but even if I had, and even if the Minister was wrong, I am not going to accept the principle that because the Minister was wrong the wrong must continue.

On a point of order, I want to say, A Chinn Comhairle, that while I respect your absolute fairness I think it is hardly fair to allow one speaker to open up a question and make his points and then to say that another speaker cannot answer his points. Anyhow, I accept your ruling, A Chinn Comhairle, and I am satisfied.

I am not satisfied. The Deputy said something was unfair. The whole question of tariffs can be raised on the Finance Bill on Thursday next. I did not hear the Minister speak, but in any event the question of tariffs is certainly out of order now. I want to compliment Deputy Sears, who managed splendidly to make a speech on tariffs. Deputies who want to make speeches on tariffs at this stage will have to devote a great deal of thought to the matter in order to get the speech made.

I suggest that in dealing with the question of the cost of production it is hard to avoid bringing in the question of tariffs, that is to say the effect of tariffs on the cost of production. From that point of view I maintain, in speaking on tariffs in that particular regard, that I am in order. At any rate I do not intend to go further into the question now. My outlook, as far as agriculture is concerned, is optimistic. I am not quite so optimistic about it as the Minister, but anyone who was down the country this spring must feel inclined to be optimistic. We have had an excellent spring and splendid opportunities for carrying out tillage operations, opportunities that we have not had for a very long time indeed. It is quite cheerful and hopeful to go to the country at the present time and witness the fine prospects there are of bountiful crops, provided we are favoured with good weather in the future. At the same time I am inclined to think that the statement to which the Minister confined himself today is not sufficiently comprehensive. I think that although we may improve our methods and the quality and quantity of our produce, that there is still another factor in the agricultural situation which must be taken into account before you can put the industry on a proper footing. In my opinion that factor is the outcome of the chaotic conditions that have obtained here since the European war in 1914. Since then there has been a general upsetting of the ordinary conditions of life as well as a complete change in the conditions which certain members of society get for their services. In the changed conditions which followed on the outbreak of the war, the farmer found himself in a very unenviable position. I agree with Deputy Wilson that the farmer is simply a farmer for business purposes. He is not farming for the good of the community any more than people engaged in other kinds of businesses are carrying on their concerns for the good of the community.

The first instinct of the farmer is self-preservation. He farms to make a profit as a farmer in the same way that business people carry on their undertakings. I maintain that if all farmers are businessmen, and I hold that if the great majority of them are successful that the country will reap the advantages of their success. The farmer, like other businessmen, must see that his ledgers balance on the right side. From my experience within the last few years I must say that there are a great many farmers, and amongst them the hard-working, intelligent farmers, to whom the Minister so often refers, whose ledgers have not balanced on the right side. It is an undoubted fact that within the last couple of years farmers have had to draw on capital. The return of bank deposits shows that. In the last couple of years there has been a decrease in the bank deposits in the country. It appears to me from that evidence that this reduction in bank deposits indicates that farmers have had to make withdrawals from the banks. The economic conditions in the country are such that farmers have had to draw on capital. The question we have to face is, how is that situation going to be improved? If farmers have to continue drawing on capital, and if the debit side of their ledgers continues to be greater than the credit side, well, things must soon reach a climax. The question is, what are we to do to try and find a remedy for that condition of affairs? During the last six months, in this House and outside of it, we have had a great deal of preaching as to the necessity for increasing and improving our production. We have been told that that is the remedy for our financial difficulties and for the semi-depressed condition of agriculture. In my opinion, increased production in many cases may not be to the advantage of the farmer. That is a matter which the Minister knows quite well. The law of diminishing returns applies particularly to the farmer. If you increase your production, every item in it, beyond a certain point, may cost you more than a particular item is worth.

Will the Deputy name any crop in regard to which that point has been reached?

Potatoes. They are selling at 28s. a ton, and that is no use.

Where are they selling at that figure?

They are selling in Donegal, and all over the country.

I propose to quote from a pamphlet published by the Department of Agriculture, and I am certain that the Minister will not repudiate any statements that appear in a pamphlet published by his Department. This pamphlet deals with diminishing returns.

Does it deal with any crop where, in the normal operations of the market, year by year, apart from an abnormal year such as this is in respect to potatoes, that point has been reached?

I did not mention potatoes. Deputy Wilson did. I am dealing with general principles. It is a basic principle in agriculture——

Therefore you must not produce more?

If you produce more in certain cases, you lose. You could, for instance, produce twenty cwts. of wheat to the acre. You could, from the same amount of land, produce thirty or thirty-five cwts. by putting in a great deal more work and by methods of intensive tillage, by using a great deal of artificial manures, but in the end you will find that the increased ten cwts. per acre has cost more per unit than the twenty cwts. per acre which you used to get formerly, and which may have to be sold at the cost of production, making no profit or loss, but when you add the other ten cwts. you make a loss on the whole. That is my point with regard to the law of diminishing production.

What is the conclusion you ask us to draw from it?

It is that there is a certain point where, if you increase your production, and if at the same time the cost of production cannot be brought down by some methods, a good deal of the increased production is lost to the particular farmer.

Why turn out more milk in the country?

I will come to that. I am dealing with the general principles. I want to give a quotation from evidence given before the Agricultural Commission by Mr. J.M. Adams, of the Department of Agriculture, on "The Law of Diminishing Returns in Agriculture." He says: "The production of farming commodities is subject to the law of diminishing returns, which means in effect that the cost of securing an increase in production should not exceed the value of the increase so obtained. Cost must be considered; it cannot be ignored.... During a period of low prices it is clear that the margin of diminishing returns admits of less extension than when prices are high. Increased production as a remedy for low prices is, therefore, subject to definite limitations."

It is an old saying that high farming is no remedy for low prices. An endeavour to increase production by high farming, when prices are decreasing, results in a loss to the farmer. We cannot, to any great extent, in the near future increase the prices we get for our produce, dependent as we are on the prices we can get from outside markets in competition with other agricultural producing countries. The farmer wants to know how he can decrease the cost of production. That is the first and paramount problem with the farming community. Though we may support the Minister fully in his efforts to improve the productive capacity of the country and to improve the methods of the farmer, our efforts, in my opinion, will be wasted unless we can decrease the cost of production to the farmer. Statements have been made with regard to the increase in the farmers' expenses as compared with the increase in the farmers' prices.

Varying figures have been given. We had a figure given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and a figure given by the Minister for Justice at Clonmel, when he stated that the price the farmer gets for his produce has increased since 1914 by only 40 per cent. Take it at 40 per cent., and take on the other side the increased expense which the farmer has to bear, and the increased cost of production, and we certainly will arrive at a percentage which would show an increase in the expenses, and that the cost of production to the farmer is greater than the increase in prices since 1914. Certain prices were given before the Commission on Agriculture, and to a large extent I think these figures stand good. I have made a table myself which varies slightly from those figures, so that I think they are practically sound at present. I think the farmers' rates have increased by 100 per cent. Many people say the increase is more than that, but I certainly say there has been an increase of 100 per cent. since 1914. Labour costs have increased by 100 per cent. also, and in some cases they have increased by a greater margin.

Would the Deputy say that the rates in his own county have increased by over 100 per cent?

In my particular district the rates have increased by more than 200 per cent. in the last financial year.

Four-and-eight-pence in the £.

Something like 5/- in the £, which is a low rate compared with other places, I acknowledge, when the agricultural grant is deducted. In 1914 the rate was about 1/8. The Minister made a statement with regard to fertilisers. He says their cost has increased by 25 per cent. since 1914. I have a list here which shows an increase of 40 per cent. —perhaps it is a bit on the high side. Fertilisers happen to be one of the articles used by farmers which has not increased in price to any great extent, or at least the increase has come down considerably. The cost of machinery which the farmer uses in dealing with his land has increased by at least 100 per cent. The farmer has to live as well as anybody else, and he has to buy clothes, boots, flour, sugar and tea and other articles. The increase in the cost of living as regards the farmer is approximately 80 per cent. on the index figure. As compared with other members of the community the farmer has distinctly lowered his standard of living, and for that reason I think the small farmers are more squeezable than any other class of the community. They have lowered their standard of living to the lowest possible point. The expense of production in farming generally has increased by probably 80 per cent., and the increased price which the farmers are getting would be, say, from 40 per cent. to 50 per cent. of an increase, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce gives it. The farmer must face up to that problem. How is he going to adjust the two sides of the ledger? I believe that until the farmer gets the ledger adjusted farming will not be a prosperous industry. Many factors go to make up the cost of production. The farmer will have to aim, and the Dáil will have to help him to aim, at dealing with these factors. I maintain taxation affects the farmer's cost of production. That is not a very welcome thing to say, perhaps, in the Dáil but I believe it is a fact that has not been disproved that taxation in the bulk eventually falls back on the producer in one shape or another, and to a large extent has to be borne by the farmers. Increased freight rates also increase the cost of production. It must be understood that the marketing and distribution of farmer's products must be included in the cost of production. The actual price the farmer receives is the only price worth considering by him. We have to aim to get that side of the farmer's ledger right. We have to aim to get his freight charges reduced, local taxation reduced and his cost of living reduced. All these things are inextricably mixed together. One reacts upon the other. High taxation reacts upon high freights, and high wages may also be responsible for high freights, one reacting on the other, and meantime the farmer's cost of production does not come down.

I maintain that in the conditions that existed during the war certain classes of the community succeeded in placing themselves in a better position economically than they had been in in the past, and they have succeeded in keeping themselves in a better position economically than they had been in the past despite the fact that other economic conditions are as they were in pre-war days. The general standard of living is not in any way above what it was in pre-war days. Before we can get agriculture right there must be a general readjustment of conditions. Some of the other members of the community will have to bear the depression which has taken place, and when they bear their full share of the sacrifices that have to be made they will give the farmer a chance of advancement and producing as he ought to produce at a profit.

With regard to the development of the Minister's Department, I am largely in agreement with him in his idea about publicity. I think I suggested measures of that kind might be taken two years ago. I have given some thought to this matter of getting agricultural instructors and farmers' sons together. The difficulty at the moment is, there is a gap which cannot be bridged. The agricultural instructors are very energetic, trained men who are willing and anxious to do all they can, but we always find it difficult to connect them with the farmers' sons. In North Tipperary, in 1925, we had two winter classes, and we only had 20 attendants at one class and 8 at the other. The attendance is not as good as it ought to be. It is evident that the interest is not being taken by farming boys in agriculture which ought to be taken, and I want to see some kind of connecting link established. I want to see the farmers' sons taking a keen interest in the scientific development of agriculture. There is something which makes it difficult to get the farmers to take a keen interest in scientific education. One of the reasons for that is that the farmer in the ordinary way, the man who jobs in cattle, is the man who has a balance in the bank. He can perhaps make a better deal in cattle, whereas the scientific farmer very often is not a financial success. I do not mean to argue from that that the way to be a financial success is to avoid scientific farming, but very often we find that the man who does not go in for scientific farming is the man who has got a balance in the bank. He goes about to fairs making profits on the transfer of cattle rather than in genuine production. Profits of that kind, of course, are to a very large extent an economic waste. On that account the only way I can see out of it at present is by means of publicity, and it is a question of how that can be best brought about. Perhaps use could be made of the local newspapers in a sensible way. Agricultural papers very often preach counsels of perfection which the ordinary man cannot follow.

Deputy Baxter mentioned that the farmers' sons might be got to take an interest in their work by means of films. At the Empire Exhibition at Wembley films were constantly shown of agricultural production in New Zealand—the production of chilled mutton and the production of butter— in a scientific way, and I must say it was most interesting and educational. The Minister must know that nowadays people are educated by means of an appeal to the eye as well as an appeal to the ear, and advantage might be taken of the cinematograph to get the young farmers to take an interest in their business. I was very pleased to listen to the commonsense way in which the Minister dealt with the development of agriculture along the lines of the production of live stock and subsidiary products. In my opinion he has blown sky-high the pretensions and the suggestions of those who have been advocating compulsory tillage and subsidised tillage.

It is evident to anybody who has given any thought to this matter that the only development for agriculture is through an increase in the production of live stock and live stock products. That does not necessarily connote a decrease in tillage. It connotes increased tillage. I quite agree that those who look for increased tillage must fall back on the small farmers. The man who tills four acres might very well till five or six. I believe, from my own observations, that it is a fact that the farmers' sons, for whom Deputy Sears is anxious to get employment, are not doing enough work in that direction, and that their lands are in grass when they might be more profitably engaged in tillage. Increasing the tillage from, say, 4 to 6 acres on a 30 acre farm is not an impossible job for the farmer and the farmer's family, where he has a family. I believe, myself, that it is along that line that increased tillage must come. A large farmer who goes in for increased tillage has to pay for labour, and that is a different problem. His labour costs him the market value of labour, whereas in the case of a small farmer, with sons, his labour does not cost him that. I was rather disappointed at the statement made by the Minister in regard to organisation of farmers. I think a suggestion has been thrown out by the Minister that farmers ought to organise only for one purpose, and that is for the purpose of business and production. He seems to deprecate any attempt on the part of the farmers to organise for political purposes. It has always been my view——

The Deputy and other Deputies on those benches must have guilty consciences. I can explain that statement on no other assumption.

I maintain that we cannot separate politics from economics.

Mr. HOGAN

That is just what we should do.

I maintain the farmers' representatives in the Dáil and Seanad are doing as good work for the agricultural industry as the organisers and instructors throughout the country.

I cannot imagine anything further away from the Vote of the Minister for Agriculture than the question of the political organisation of farmers in this country.

Mr. HOGAN

Which I never mentioned.

No question could be conceived further away, not even the questions which the Deputy mentioned—rates, taxes, tariffs, wages, costs of production. The political organisation of farmers is the furthest away of all from this Vote.

You labour under the disadvantage, A Chinn Comhairle, of not having heard the Minister's statement which raised the whole question of these general topics.

Mr. HOGAN

I did speak of a general policy, but on this specific point here is the one statement on which it is all based: "On the other hand, in this country the good farmer, the farmer who knows his own business, in other words the majority of farmers, do not either write to the papers or pass resolutions at local or other bodies; they stay at home and do their work. Unfortunately they are almost entirely unorganised." I really was not discussing the next general election then.

It is not at all inconsistent that a farmer might be a good farmer and that he might, say, at some time, attend a meeting of the Farmers' Union or of the Agricultural Organisation Society.

A DEPUTY

Or a meeting of the Cumann na nGaedheal.

Or that he might take part in passing a resolution. Resolutions are sometimes effective. When a shower of resolutions from certain organised bodies falls on the Minister they often have an effect on him.

What sort of an effect?

An exasperating effect.

I approve of the Minister's policy of education, particularly that connected with the establishment of the faculties in the Universities. I believe, myself, that education really must be the foundation of all agricultural development and advancement. I agree that the farmers, perhaps, are as well educated from the primary schools as the ordinary members of the community are, but it is the more advanced agricultural education that has not been taken sufficient advantage of. If I were asked for a policy for the advancement of the farming industry of the future, I would say, as I said in the past: "Educate us, reduce taxation, maintain law and order, and leave us alone to find our own salvation."

Cheap labour.

Our own labour.

I would like to say about twenty-five words. The Minister has issued, for publication, a pamphlet which has been recommended by Deputy Heffernan, headed "Farm Costings." It contains very valuable information, which, if analysed, would show Deputy Heffernan that the actual increase, upon his own figures, of the costs to the farmer, apart from labour, is 33 per cent. over 1914, and not 80 per cent.

Ordered that Progress be reported.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported. Committee to sit again on Monday, May 31st.
The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m. to 3 p.m. on Monday, 31st May.
Top
Share