Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 8

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - VOTE 14—PROPERTY LOSSES COMPENSATION.

The Dáil, according to order, resumed consideration of the Estimates, in Committee on Finance.
Motion made:—
Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,447,000 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun íocaíochtan na i dtaobh mille no díobháil do mhaoin a dineadh i rith na tréimhse 21 Eanair, 1919, go 12 Bealtaine, 1923, go huile, fé sna hAchtanna um Dhíobháil do Mhaoin (Cúiteamh), 1923 go 1926, agus ar shlite eile; agus mar gheall ar dhamáiste do mhaoin, no cailliúint maoine, agus íocaíochtanna tré shlánú no tré aisíoc fén Acht Slánaíochta, 1924, agus chun deontaisí d'íoc a socruíodh a íoc de bharr mola anProperty Losses (Ireland) Committee, 1916, mar chúiteamh i bhfoirgintí a milleadh i mBaile Atha Cliath i rith Seachtain na Cásca, 1916.
That a sum not exceeding £1,447,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for payments in respect of destruction of, or injuries to, property within the period 21st January, 1919, to 12th May, 1923, inclusive, under the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923 to 1926, and otherwise; and in respect of damage to, or loss of property and payments by way of indemnification or recoupment under the Indemnity Act, 1924, and for payment of grants awarded on the recommendation of the Property Losses (Ireland) Committee, 1916, as compensation for buildings destroyed in Dublin during Easter Week, 1916.
Debate resumed.

In connection with sub-head E, complaints are made in different parts of the country—I have heard them in more than one district and in more than one county—that payments are still due to valuers and others who were engaged by the Government to make valuations of destroyed property when compensation claims were made. Individuals have informed me that they sent in their accounts over two years ago and have heard nothing about the matter. The Minister should see that these accounts are paid as soon as possible. In connection with the Indemnity Act, the last day for making claims was the 29th September, 1925. I think that many claims, because of the dates on which they were received in the Department of Finance, were ruled out, so that no compensation can be awarded.

A few of these claims have been brought directly under my notice. One individual states that he was an officer in a certain battalion from 1920 to 1922. In the early part of the year 1922 he was instructed by the O.C. of the Brigade to have all claims for damage to property in his battalion area sent in, as they were to be forwarded to G.H.Q. The first one he sent in is one to which I wish to refer. He was aware that the claim was genuine, and he can give evidence on oath with regard to it if necessary. I have made inquiries, and my information is that the claim was not received in the office before the closing date. In another claim brought under my notice the story is the same. Two motor cars were held up for forty weeks by the Black-and-Tans. The owner put in his claim to the local Volunteers, who undertook to look after it for him. They did not do so, with the result that he has been jockeyed into his present position, wherein it appears that the authorities are not willing to compensate. A few other similar claims have also been brought to my notice.

I would point out to the Minister, even at this late day, that there are undoubtedly people excluded from getting compensation through no fault of theirs, because they were certain that Volunteer officers and others through whom the claims were made would discharge their responsibilities, and put in their claims in proper order and in time. Believing that that had been done, they took no further steps. The result is that a good many people are excluded from the benefits of the Act. I think that the Minister should reconsider the attitude of the Compensation Commission with regard to these cases. When you come up against a case, as I have, with unmistakable evidence of a just claim for compensation, and when you know that justice has not been done because of neglect on the part of some Volunteer officer or other, and often owing to the incapacity of some of the people making claims, in not having them in proper order, there is a very strong case undoubtedly for reopening the consideration of a number of cases. I do not think these cases are very numerous, or that the amounts are very large, but £40 or £50 means as much to some people as £4,000 or £5,000 would mean to others, and to exclude people from compensation owing to some mistake, oversight or negligence of some person who undertook to discharge the obligation can scarcely be said to be fair dealing.

The Minister can make the case that advertisements were issued and that the last day for receiving claims was published and was definitely known, but injustice still exists, and I believe that the intentions of the Act will not be fully carried out until these people get the compensation to which they are entitled under the Act but which is being refused to them because of some flaw in the applications. I gave the Minister notice of specific cases. I intimated to him yesterday that I intended to raise the case of John Shiels, Drumgore, Loughduff, Co. Cavan, who made a claim for parts of rifles supplied to nine companies of the Volunteers in, I think, 1920. He procured and paid for the parts himself and did the work of putting the rifles in order. Officers of various companies are prepared to supply any evidence on oath, affidavits or anything else, that is required to prove that this work was done. The claim was lodged with the Minister for Defence and it was passed on to the Minister for Finance. The final communication of January 13th, 1926, informed John Shiels that his claim could not be dealt with under the Indemnity Act, 1924.

I raise this matter because I think it is a disability that a good many people who made claims labour under. I want to know on what grounds the Minister justifies a decision like this. The facts are not denied, and I have gone to considerable trouble to satisfy myself that they are as stated. The claim in this case amounted to £90, and the work done extended over a period of. I think, two years. I know the man; he is a farmer in a very small way and, at a very critical period in the country's history, he did useful work. It was very difficult to find men anywhere prepared to do that work. Those who were able to do it were not particularly anxious. A lot of compensation cases have been passed and great sums have been paid, yet a man like that is left high and dry; he is informed that his claim cannot be dealt with under the Act. I think the Minister must admit that, in view of the large amount that has been paid to different types of individuals who suffered loss, it is hard lines on this man to be told that his case does not come within the Act, and that, legally, his claim cannot be considered. There is no doubt that men placed in that category are treated very harshly and unjustly.

There is another case I would like to refer to, that of Michael Dowd, Corhoogan, Cavan. He made a claim for cabbage seed that was either taken away or destroyed on the 17th July, 1921. He got a report from the Circuit Court for £40. The final decision of the Minister was that no compensation would be paid. In this case it was conclusively proved that armed men raided the man's house, smashed certain items of his furniture, and did other damage. He was a very small farmer, but was very thrifty and very industrious, and he had developed this branch of his farming to such an extent that it meant a considerable revenue to him. He had his cabbage seeds prepared for the next season and these seeds were taken away or destroyed. I recognise the point made that if they were taken outside there would be no power under the Act to compensate the individual. If they were destroyed in the house I believe the man could be compensated. The position is that once the seeds were touched they were destroyed because the farmer could not give any guarantee of germination with the seeds after they had been interfered with. It is a very peculiar position that compensation can be awarded for something destroyed in the house but that it is not possible to give compensation for an article taken outside the house.

In these cases it seems to me that the policy of the Department is not fair. The Minister should reconsider these cases. I ask, in regard to cases that have been ruled outside the operations of the Indemnity Act because for certain reasons they were not lodged in time, that some reconsideration should be given to them. Where there is evidence forthcoming that the individuals concerned were satisfied that somebody on their behalf was lodging the claims, those cases should be re-opened, and, if an award can be justified, that award should be made.

With reference to the cases of valuers, sometimes difficulties arise in establishing the amounts due. Travelling expenses have to be checked and in certain cases a good deal of scrutiny is necessary. Claims, for instance, have been submitted which seemed to be excessive and time was taken up examining them. In some cases matters about which disputes might genuinely arise were involved. One or two such cases have been submitted to me. There may have been a certain amount of delay in a good number of cases, but I do not really know whether there has been undue delay or delay that would create a great hardship on individuals. If the Deputy will supply me later with the names of cases where he thinks there has been undue delay, I will have them examined.

With regard to cases coming under the Indemnity Act of 1924, there is, of course, a time-limit fixed in that Act. A claim should be made not later than three months after the passing of the Act, Of course it would not be possible, without amending legislation, to revert to any claims received later. With regard to old pre-Truce claims, the position is that the Compensation (Ireland) Commission has been working for a very long time. There was every opportunity given to people to put in their claims and to make sure they had got acknowledgments. The Commission has now completed its work and has been disbanded. I think it would be very difficult to deal with any pre-Truce claims at the present time. We could not reconstitute the body that has been disbanded; we could not have cases dealt with by the people who dealt with previous claims. There is also an objection to dealing with these very late claims by reason of the difficulty of proper investigation. People's memories fail, and while the person making the claim has reason to remember the circumstances and will remember them all, and perhaps more, it is not so easy for the State to get counter-evidence or checking evidence. I have seen enough to convince me that that is so in actual practice as well as in theory.

Old claims are very difficult to investigate. People who may be called upon to corroborate, deny, or explain, probably have ceased to remember the details. Witnesses have ceased to be available and it becomes increasingly difficult to have claims investigated properly. I do not think it would be possible to hold out hope of admitting claims which for some reason, were not received in time.

With regard to the specific cases that the Deputy mentioned, the case of John Shiels was, of course, received in time and it was not turned down departmentally. It was submitted to the Indemnity Act Committee, the chairman of which is a District Justice and is quite independent. Special arrangements were made to secure a judicial chairman, somebody who had no touch with the Executive and who was not dependent on the Executive in any way. The Indemnity Act Committee unanimously turned down this claim as not being within their terms of reference.

The Indemnity Act deals principally with applications of persons claiming to have suffered any direct loss or damage or interference with property by a person holding office under the First or Second Dáil Eireann. I think the case in question does not come within the Act. We never accepted the position that Volunteer debts were due to be paid out of the Exchequer of the Free State because the pre-Truce position was that the Volunteers in each area really met their own debts. While in certain exceptional cases later on— in some border-line types of cases— debts were paid, the general position was that responsibility was not taken for those debts. That was done advisedly and a good deal of consideration was given to it.

I think this Mr. Shiels suffered no more, perhaps, than many people suffered who gave subscription and made sacrifices and did work for their local brigade or battalion. I have before me a statement of the claim of Mr. Shiels, and I say that a good deal of it is for labour in one form or another. Some of it is actually set down. There is one item of £24 3s. for labour. Then I see there is an item relative to the making of stocks for guns which, I presume, was labour. I am not sure whether he actually paid for all the parts—the springs and so forth.

He did, and got nothing.

If he did pay out a fairly substantial sum for these articles it, perhaps, is hard on him that he does not come within the Indemnity Act. I have come across cases myself where people who did things with no expectation of payment during the struggle, or people who even gave subscriptions during the struggle, have lately felt that they wanted to get paid for the things they did freely, or they wanted to have the subscriptions regarded as loans. I have known of people who refused payment during the struggle—who were offered payment and refused it from the old Dáil—and who recently have said they wanted the salary which was offered to them. I had to say to them that we could not go back; that they were willing to do the work voluntarily at the time and that that position must be accepted.

In the same way a few people who gave very big subscriptions have said they meant them as loans, or that they might be regarded as loans. Again I ought to say we cannot go back. It is possible that this case has some of the elements that were found in the sort of case I have just quoted. The point is this, that there is no provision made in the Vote by which a claim like this could be paid. It has been turned down by the Indemnity Act Committee. They refused to make an award, and that stops me from making any payment under sub-head F of this Vote. The admission of such claims would certainly be a very big decision. I think Deputies will see that it would involve us in almost endless claims. Everyone who ever had a Volunteer stopping in his house could say that he could not afford it; that he expected some time to be paid and must be given a billeting allowance, and so on. We could have numerous claims of that kind, some of which might very well be substantiated, some of which might be doubtful, and which could hardly be disproved.

I do not think that we could admit that any expenditure incurred on behalf of Volunteers during the struggle must be paid for. It would certainly open up a frightful prospect, worse than anything we have had to do in the way of compensation and more difficult of investigation. With regard to Michael O'Dowd, it may be, as it seems to be from what the Deputy says, a hard case, but as the Deputy is aware, I, as Minister for Finance, have a certain discretion in respect to report cases. I think there was a report by the judge.

Yes, for £40.

I have not only the right but the duty to revise these cases. As a matter of fact, I know that judges are quite aware that there is a revisory power. It has been known for judges to say: "Well, I will make it so much because the Minister for Finance will cut it down." In any case, it is my duty to see whether it is a case that comes within the Act, and whether the amount is too great or too small. If, after having obtained legal advice, I believe the case to be clearly outside the Act, I must disallow it. If there was a decree in such a case I would appeal, but as there is no appeal in report cases I must only seek legal advice and try to be fairly sure and surely fair in the matter and act accordingly.

The Damage to Property (Compensation) Act prescribes that "the wrongful act" must have occurred within certain dates between the 11th July, 1921, and before the 20th March, 1923, The occurrence here falls within the date, but then the next sub-section of the Act says: "The wrongful act if consisting of the taking away of chattels must have been committed by a person or person engaged in or purporting to act or who might reasonably be presumed to have been acting in the name or on behalf of any combination or conspiracy for the overthrow of the late Provisional Government of Ireland or of the Government of Saorstát Eireann," and certain other things. At the date, 17th July, 1921, or just about a week after the Truce, you may have had people behaving criminally, but you had not anybody who could be described as being engaged in a "combination or conspiracy" to overthrow the Provisional Government, which was not set up for months after, or the Government of Saorstát Eireann, which was not set up for eighteen months later.

Were not people conspiring to prevent this being set up?

In this particular case I had it twice referred for legal advice. It was examined carefully, and after getting that legal advice I was satisfied that it was not within the scope of the Act. Consequently, as far as I was concerned, I had no option, having had clear advice on the matter, but to disallow the payment. No matter what legislation we may have for matters like this, there will be cases somehow or another which will fall to the ground between two stools. If there were a great number of such cases, it might be necessary to legislate, but if there is only a small number of cases it is not practicable to legislate for them. We must try to draft our main legislation to meet the situation as justly as possible, and if an exceptional case comes to our notice we cannot legislate to help that exceptional case. Further legislation might open a very wide door and give rise to a whole list of new grievances and cause no more satisfaction than would arise from leaving the matter alone.

I think that in the main compensation has been given reasonably to cover all the classes of cases in which loss was sustained. Of course we definitely avoided payment for consequential loss, but apart from that I think that, generally, reasonable compensation was given. I do not know that we could really at the present stage contemplate provision for further legislation. So far as the case the Deputy mentions is concerned, and so far as the administration of the Act is concerned, I have no discretion. One case was turned down by the Committee, and that really finished this as far as I was concerned. In O'Dowd's case technically I might have a discretion, but morally I have no discretion. I have power to review reports. In certain cases, even when a report has been given, if I am advised and believe that the case is not within the scope of the Act, then I could not put that advice in the waste paper basket and pay. I must act on the advice given.

I am very dissatisfied with the Minister's attitude on this case. What the Minister has said makes it clear and convincing that not alone hardships but injustices are being done. As regards this particular case, I only brought it forward after making very careful investigations myself. I satisfied myself that the facts were as represented to me. In the case of Sheils, I am satisfied that he spent, at the lowest figure, £30 or £40 of his own money. He is a small farmer with a place that can only support two cows, and he has a family of six or seven children. He spent that amount of money. He admitted to me that he did that because it was a patriotic thing to do. He spent the money, and he hoped he would get from the area where he worked a refund of it. He got nothing, while there are around him to-day very many people who were attached to various parties and who have all got compensation. He stands alone in not alone spending his own money but in taking risks that very many other people would not take. I say that in his case a very grave injustice is being done.

In the case of O'Dowd, the Minister makes the point, and evidently on that point he turned down the case that the act had to be committed by armed forces out to overthrow the Provisional Government or the Government of Saorstát Eireann. The Minister says that he procured legal advice on the case twice. But the judge gave a verdict, and made a report on the case. He reported on the facts presented to him, and on the law, and you must accept it that the judge was capable of deciding whether or not the claim came within the terms of the Act. He gave a decision after evidence was submitted to him. I am perfectly satisfied that the raid was carried out by armed men. There are other matters in connection with it that I do not want to add to my argument, but I am satisfied that the raid was carried out by armed men. What particular Government these armed men were prepared to overthrow is another matter. Their antagonism in this particular case was political. It was malice that incited them. Were it possible for these forces to overthrow the Government of Saorstát Eireann they would have done it. In my opinion the Minister would not have arrived at the decision he has arrived at if all the facts were put fully before him, and I urge on him to permit that his decision be open to re-consideration.

If any further facts could be put up to show me that the case would come within the terms of the Act I am prepared to consider that. If there are any further facts available that would seem to bring it within the Act I will certainly have the matter again legally examined.

Vote put and agreed to.
Top
Share