I move:—
"In page 7, line 4, Section 18 (1) to delete the word "revise" and substitute therefor the words "consider and, where it seems desirable to do so, shall after."
CORONERS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 1926—REPORT.
This amendment is, I think, more or less agreed upon.
Yes, it is to meet a point raised by Deputy Connor Hogan as to the exact meaning of the word "revise" in the context. Without prejudice to my own view that "revise" does not necessarily mean "alter," I move this amendment. It removes any impression that there is a statutory increase conferred by the section. There is a statutory duty placed on the County Council to consider the salary.
The suggested alteration makes the sub-section quite acceptable, but when you come to sub-section (2) of the same section I think the Minister would be well advised to take out that sub-section altogether. The same words are used here and autocratic powers are given to the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Justice which they should not have, or, if they should have them, they should not be embodied in an Act. The same words are repeated and the same intention is retained, and although the objection is taken out of sub-section (1) it remains in sub-section (2). I think that the purpose of the Minister would be served by sub-sections (1) and (3) and by the removal of sub-section (2) altogether.
I would not be prepared to take out sub-section (2). If Deputy Gorey thinks it necessary to substitute the word "examine" for the word "revise' in line 2, and the word "examination" for "revision" in line 3, I would be prepared to do that, but to delete the sub-section is another matter. The procedure really would stand after the alteration as follows: The county council shall consider the salaries paid to its coroners. It cannot decrease the salaries of existing coroners. If it so decides, it can let the salaries stand as they are. If it decides, and the Minister for Local Government approves, it can increase them. If the coroner is aggrieved because his salary has not been increased, or has not, in his opinion, been increased enough, he can appeal to the Minister for Local Government. If such appeal is made, the Minister for Local Government shall, after consultation with the Minister for Justice, fix the salary. He may fix the salary at the figure that commended itself to the county council, or he may fix it at another figure, but, at any rate, he is constituted a court of appeal in that matter, if the coroner thinks fit to have recourse to him. I put it to the Deputy that that is not an unreasonable proposal in a Bill of this kind, where we take up the examination and overhauling of existing statutes and regulations with reference to coroners. We are probably, almost certainly, imposing on them rather more work than it was customary for them to perform in the past. The Committee that considered this Bill in the Seanad on the question of salary found that no coroner's salary had been increased by a single penny by way of bonus or addition since the war. There are salaries of £20, £30 and £50 per annum, and out of these the coroner is expected to pay his travelling expenses.
When he travels?
When he travels. So far as I am aware, there is no other class of public servants who have not received some addition to their salaries as a result of the dislocation of prices and general increase in the cost of living since the war. The principle of the section really is that there is recognised a sufficient prima facie case to make it reasonable to ask the county council whether it is proper to continue to pay pre-war salaries only to the coroners, and to provide a court of appeal in the person of the Minister for Local Government. I put it to Deputies that the Minister for Local Government is not likely to use this discretionary power, which this section vests in him, except his case is a particularly strong one, unless the figure fixed by the county council is rather obviously an unfair one, having regard to the amount of work imposed on the coroner. If the Deputy desires the two minor amendments which I suggest in the sub-section we will meet him on that, namely, in line 2 to alter the word "revise" to "examine," and in line 3 to alter the word "revision" to "examination." I would not, however, be prepared to withdraw the sub-section as suggested.
The substitution of those two words makes it more acceptable, but the principle is retained where you say, "he shall, after consultation with the Minister for Justice, fix the salary at such rate as he thinks proper." We think it is undesirable that words of that description should be embodied in an Act. We think it is too much of a setting aside of all local authorities, and too much of a want of confidence in the sense of justice of local authorities. It betrays too much of the official mind of Merrion Street or any other street that ultimately may be the headquarters of the several Departments. I think it is undesirable, and I am astonished that the necessity should arise in this particular Bill and for this particular office. Up to now it has not been introduced into any other measure dealing with any other class of office by any Department, and why the foundation should be laid here I cannot understand. I think it is wrong; it is a paving of the way for future appointments of every description, and gives the same powers to the several departments dealing with them. I think it is something that should be avoided. The words that the Minister has substituted make it more acceptable, but still the principle that we object to is brought in in sub-section (2), and I do not think it is sound or right. As I say, it paves the way for every other class of officers in the country desiring the same form of appeal to the different departments governing their particular offices. I think the Minister ought to give it more consideration.
What we really have before us is the amendment by Deputy Connor Hogan, to delete Section 18. The Minister's suggested amendment is really an offer to Deputy Connor Hogan. If it is not accepted we can take the Deputy's amendment. If Deputy Connor Hogan withdraws his amendment, of course we can proceed with this, or put the amendment, whichever he likes.
I cannot withdraw the amendment, in the circumstances.
Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 9; Níl, 53.
Tá
- Pádraig Baxter.
- John Conlan.
- Seán de Faoite.
- Connor Hogan.
- Séamus Mac Cosgair.
- Seán O Duinnín.
- Donnchadh O Guaire.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
Níl
- Earnán Altún.
- Thomas Bolger.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Seoirse de Bhulbh.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- Séamus de Burca.
- Sir James Craig.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
- Uí Dhrisceóil.
- James Dwyer.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- Michael Egan.
- Patrick J. Egan.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- John Good.
- David Hall.
- Thomas Hennessy.
- John Hennigan.
- Seosamh Mac a' Bhrighde.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- John T. Nolan.
- William Norton.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Mícheál O hAonghusa.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Risteárd O Conaill.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Parthalán O Conchubhair.
- Conchubhar O Conghaile.
- Máirtín O Conalláin.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Seán O Laidhin.
- Aindriú O Láimhín.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Seán O Raghallaigh.
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Andrew O'Shaughnessy.
- Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Liam Thrift.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Connor Hogan and Baxter; Níl, Deputies Dolan and Tierney. Amendment declared lost.
Amendment 2 (a) put and agreed to.
May I take it that Deputy Gorey is accepting the Minister's proposed amendment now?
Yes, I accept it now.
I think a consequential amendment ought to be made in Section 18, sub-section (2), to delete the word "revise" and substitute the word "examine" and to delete the word "revision" and substitute the word "examination."
Consequential amendment agreed to.
I move Amendment 3:—
In page 8, Section 24, to delete line 16 and to substitute therefor the words "that out of which the expenses of a coroner were defrayed at the time of the passing of this Act."
The general expression is considered to be safer than a specific reference to the Act of '46, which might not cover all the coroner's expenses. I think, as these new expenses shall be dealt with precisely as the old expenses were, that seems to be the safest way of putting it.
Amendment agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill, as amended, be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
Fifth Stage ordered for Thursday, the 16th December.
The Dáil went into Committee.