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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Feb 1927

Vol. 18 No. 7

QUESTION ON ADJOURNMENT. - LAND COMMISSION PROCESSES IN TIRCONAILL.

In accordance with the notice I gave this afternoon I am drawing attention to a matter of much importance, perhaps of more importance to the Gaeltacht than some of the eye-wash we have been listening to and reading about for the last few weeks. After consultation with my Party it was decided that I should raise this question of costs charged by the State Solicitor to defendants in Land Commission processes in Tirconaill. This point on the question of these costs may be also applicable to other counties as well as Tirconaill. It is of the utmost importance that the matter should be brought at once to the notice of the Dáil and to that of the Minister responsible. The first case I propose to deal with is that of Owen and Daniel Doherty, who were the defendants in a joint process. Their joint names appear on the Receivable Order. The amount processed for is £2 17s. 0d., payment in lieu of rent, and the cost as set out in the process is 10s. 3d. before entry in one instance, and 10s. 6d. in the other. A copy of the process having been served on each defendant, this sum of £2 17s. payment in lieu of rent plus £1 0s. 9d. costs was remitted by the defendants to the State Solicitor about the 2nd of February. The entry day mentioned in the process is the 5th February. In the schedule of costs to the District Court Rules the costs for the issue of a process which exceeds £2 and does not exceed £5 is 8s. In a foot-note to a further schedule in the Rules it is specified "In all cases the sum of 2s. 3d. shall be allowed in addition to the scales of cost hereinbefore set out for each copy of a civil process served after the first, which sum shall include service fee." According to that schedule the legal costs payable before entry by these defendants for the two processes was 10s. 3d., and not £1 0s. 9d. I hold that 10s. 6d. out of this sum of £1 0s. 9d. is, therefore, illegal and unauthorised. The next stage as regards costs, that is after entry and before the hearing, is set out in these two processes as £2 10s. 9d.— £1 5s. 3d. in one copy and £1 5s. 6d. in the other. According to the costs as set out in the schedule in the District Court Rules the costs authorised is 14s., which, added to the 2s. 3d. for extra copy—authorised by footnote on page 108 of the Rules—makes the scheduled cost after entry and before hearing 16s. 3d.

The cost set out and demanded by the State Solicitor on these two processes against Owen and Daniel Doherty is £2 10s. 9d., which is an illegal and unauthorised charge to the extent of £1 14s. 3d. The next processes are against a widow, Mrs. Annie Doherty, for £6 15s. 0d., for payment in lieu of rent in one process, and in another, £5 6s. She has two holdings, and these are not joint processes. The cost before entry appeared to be correct according to the schedule of costs under the rules in page 101, column 1. The costs set out and payable after entry and before hearing are, I submit, unauthorised. The sum of £1 11s. 6d. is the amount of the costs in each process as costs after entry. The woman was about to remit this amount until I looked up the schedule of costs and found in column 2 of the schedule that £1 is the authorised amount chargable after entry, so that an unauthorised overcharge of 11/6 in each of the processes, or 23/- on the two, was demanded from this poor widow and her four little orphan girls in Inishowen. According to my information, and after looking through these Rules, I find that the State Solicitor is entitled to charge on the first five items, in column 2. page 101, a sum of £1. The next three items: "Attending and conducting case at hearing, 7/6; drawing and signing decree, 2/6; stamp on decree, 1/6: total, 11/6"—are amounts which. I submit, he is not entitled to charge, because it cannot be held that he is entitled to fees for a decree when the amount is paid before going into court. I desire to draw attention to a footnote on the process issued by the State Solicitor: "This civil bill must accompany remittance, otherwise the matter will not have immediate attention." That is a very cryptic pronouncement. The defendant to the process is requested by the State Solicitor to send the process with the remittance. That is done extensively by defendants, in my experience. That destroys the evidence of the overcharges. When these rules were being rushed through the Dáil, a member of our Party stated to the Minister that before twelve months serious flaws would be discovered in them. Here is the first, and a very serious one for small farmers in my area. An experienced District Justice in our county made the following remarks at Ballyshannon District Court on the 19th October last: "I have been waiting three years for these rules, and if a law clerk had been paid a decent fee they would have had a decent set of rules in a week." Now there is my whole case. I am delighted to see that such interest has been taken in my remarks, both by the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, and I expect, from the serious manner in which they have been listening to me, that something will be done. I ask both Ministers to investigate the overcharges that I have brought to the notice of the Dáil. If they do so, I think they will find that I have reason to be correct in my allegations.

I did not like to interrupt the Deputy or to interfere with his rights in any way, because this is a complicated subject of which I have no previous knowledge. It seems to me that at certain points the Deputy was talking of what should be remedied in a court rather than in the Dáil. Has the Minister jurisdiction in this matter over the State solicitors?

With all respect to you, sir, I would point out that the unfortunate people who were processed have not the money to pay solicitors to go into court. I also find that solicitors are reluctant to interfere in this matter, because it deals with a certain prerogative of theirs. That is the reason I brought the matter before the Dáil, because some of the unfortunate defendants, in the first instance, are not in a position to pay solicitors to question the charges, and also in my area solicitors are reluctant to raise such a question against a colleague who is a member of the legal profession.

With regard to this question, State solicitors are not in any way connected with my Department. Land Commission work is done by the State solicitors, but I have no control, of any kind, over them. I am merely driven into the position of having to answer all sorts of questions in connection with their work. This is not the first time matters of this kind have been raised on the adjournment, concerning the administration of their particular functions by State solicitors. As it is also connected with the Land Commission it seems to be taken for granted that I must deal with the matter. I do not know what my position would be, even if they were officers of the Department of Lands and Agriculture. As you, sir, point out, if an overcharge has been made there is a legal remedy. I do not know whether cases of that sort ought, or ought not, be raised in the Dáil. There is a legal remedy if an overcharge has been made. I do not know whether it is within the Deputy's rights to raise it in the Dáil. That is the legal position. Might I say one word as the question has been raised?

I think State solicitors are paid salaries.

Into what fund do the fees enter? Are they not received into State funds?

Mr. HOGAN

They are.

I did not mind this particular matter being raised, but now that it has been raised there is a very important question at issue. This is not a court in the sense that the Deputy can get up and say here that someone has been improperly and illegally treated, and that the Minister ought to find a remedy. In fact, the remedy is a remedy at law. What I gathered from Deputy White was that certain fees were chargeable under the District Court Rules, that there was a certain legal maximum to be charged, and that in particular instances, which he mentioned, a State solicitor charged higher fees than he was, in fact, entitled legally to charge. That is the way I grasped the matter. If that is so, it must be possible to bring this matter into court and make the State Solicitor comply with the law if, in fact, he has infringed the law. As I understand the position, the fact that he is State solicitor puts him in no better position than if he were solicitor to a private person. If the costs are defined by law the jurisdiction of the courts is the same for the State solicitor as it is for everyone else. Can the Minister for Agriculture or the Minister for Justice determine the question as to whether the fees are excessive, or would the matter have to go before a court? We cannot have Ministers asked questions that should be referred to a Judge. Deputies on other occasions would, of course, be very strong on that particular point.

Surely any Deputy is at liberty to raise a question like this when he makes a charge of maladministration on the part of any official in any of the Departments of State, especially an official paid out of public funds for which the responsible Minister has to answer. If the facts are as mentioned by Deputy White, is it not a real case for investigation on the part of the responsible Minister, to discover whether or not the position is as he reveals it? If so, does there not immediately arise the question of the competence of that official to carry out the administrative work which he is appointed to carry out?

I am not deciding this particular case, because I do not know all the facts. I have not gone into them. What Deputy Baxter says may be so in particular instances, but we could not have the position here that, because a person is a public official, a speech might be made here to the effect that he is acting illegally. This is not the place to hear that charge.

You must bear in mind, sir, that these rules were discussed and approved of by the Dáil. The schedule of costs was also approved of. I submit when that is the fact any Deputy has a right to come here and criticise the official who I allege has charged unauthorised costs, according to the schedule attached to the District Court Rules.

I was only thinking of the point of procedure. I think it is important, and that the position should be made clear. Perhaps it would be inadvisable, until some thought has been given to it, to have any ruling now which might form a precedent. I would suggest that the purpose of the Deputy has been effected even without any conclusion, and that the matter should be dealt with by you, sir, after thought and examination of the actual position.

As a matter of fact that is exactly what I have done. I have allowed the Deputy to deal with the matter. I have not prejudiced his rights, if he had any. He has had his rights in full, or perhaps more than his rights.

I am quite satisfied.

I am not ruling on the matter, but I am anxious that the precedent created by Deputy White should not be something we are going to allow when we have given thought to the matter.

I have very little to say. I would like to query the use of the word "official" in connection with State Solicitors. State Solicitors are not formally appointed by the Executive Council or by a Minister. They are selected by the Attorney-General to do State work in their respective counties and instead of ad hoc fees in each particular case they are paid a bulk sum which represents, really, compounded professional fees. But there is no appointment by me, or by the Executive Council as a whole, nor any formal appointment, in fact, beyond that the Attorney-General selects a solicitor in a particular county who will do any work arising on behalf of the State in that county. I was simply anxious to put a query mark behind the word “official,” in connection with these persons.

Mr. HOGAN

I do not propose to comment, in view of what has been said, on the facts, and on the particular figures that were given here. I want to say that, even if a State Solicitor were an official there is a question not only of the right of a Deputy to raise a matter of this sort, but the propriety of raising it, in view of the fact that a case may be established in court. If the Deputy thinks it right to come and make a statement with regard to a matter of that sort, before the case is taken to court, and in an assembly like this, where only one side of the case is heard, and where statements are broadcasted, I do not know if it is proper in view of the fact that a case may come to court, to raise the matter in that way. I daresay there would be some way of raising the matter in the House if, in fact, legal proceedings had been instituted against the solicitor, and the plaintiff succeeded in getting a decree. I dare say there would then be, possibly, some way of raising the matter as to whether a State officer did his work properly, and was a proper officer for the State to employ. That is all based on the assumption that he is an official, but I say it is hardly quite correct procedure. The Deputy may have a right to raise the question before legal action is taken, and make ex parte statements that no one is in a position to deal with in regard to matters that may come immediately afterwards into court and have to be decided. I say, as Deputy Johnson said, it is a matter for consideration. A distinction has been drawn between the amount of costs chargeable before entry and the amount of costs after the decree has been taken out.

I did not raise that point.

Mr. HOGAN

I refer to the amount of costs properly chargeable after a decree has been taken out. The legal question is whether a solicitor is entitled to charge, after entry, full costs of a decree, even though he gets paid the amount after entry and before the decree. The question to be decided is, whether a solicitor who has entered a civil bill for hearing in court can charge full costs applicable to a decree, even though he got the amount sued for before the actual court day. I do not want to go into that question.

The Minister for Justice and the Minister for Agriculture have made elaborate statements about the State Solicitor being an official. When I raised that question about the State Solicitor on the Land Commission Vote last June the Minister for Agriculture endeavoured to prove that the State Solicitor was not an official, and he was very nearly successful in doing so, but for Deputy Johnson.

The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until Wednesday, 23rd February, 1927.

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