Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 25 Feb 1927

Vol. 18 No. 10

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - VOTE 37—CIRCUIT COURT OFFICERS.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar dhá mhíle ceithre chéad agus caoga punt chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun tuarastail agus liúntaisí agus costaisí Oifigeacha iomdha Cúirte Cuarda, bonus do Chléirigh na Coróineach agus na Síochána, agus costaisí ath-fhéachainte.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding two thousand four hundred and fifty pounds be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the salaries, allowances, and expenses of various Circuit Court Officers, bonus to Clerks of the Crown and Peace, and expenses of revision.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

This supplementary estimate is necessary as a result of the coming into operation in September last of the Court Officers Act. Deputies will recollect that under the terms of that Act certain important offices which for many years formed part of the Country or Circuit Court machinery were abolished and other equally important offices were established. The money voted at the beginning of the financial year 1926-1927 for the various offices then in existence cannot, it is considered, be diverted towards the payments of the salaries and expenses of the new office holders, and the Dáil is, therefore, now being asked to vote the sum required to meet the cost of the new services for the period 1st September, 1926, to 31st March, 1927. The most important change from a staff point of view resulting from the operation of the Act was the substitution of the office of County Registrar for that of Clerk of the Crown and Peace.

The sum required to pay the salaries of the county registrars for the seven months of the current financial year during which they will hold office will be found under sub-head AA of the Estimate—£13,600, and bonus £4,100. There are in all 26 county registrars, and their total salaries show an approximate annual saving of £5,000 as compared with the salaries of the former Clerks of the Crown and Peace. The salary attaching to each county will be shown in detail in the estimates for 1927-28. The Act also instituted the office of summons server in place of that of process server. The number and cost of the summons servers will not materially differ from the officers they replace—575 at £20 per annum. A sum of £12,000 was originally voted for process servers, and we are asking for £7,000 (also under sub-head AA) for the summons servers for seven months. Twenty-five court messengers will also act as summons servers and receive extra remuneration from this vote for their services in the latter capacity. This remuneration is at the rate of £20 per annum.

With regard to sub-head BB, under the new system the remuneration of the staffs in the County Registrar's office is borne entirely on public funds. Each former Clerk of the Crown and Peace was paid a clerical allowance which was intended to meet his office expenses and which he could divide in whatever manner he pleased among the persons employed in his office. These allowances were quite inadequate and had to be supplemented, in many cases substantially, out of the fees which the Clerk of the Crown and Peace received from local bodies in connection with the revision of voters and jurors lists. The new arrangement provides for the payment to the County Registrars of a fixed annual salary, and for the surrender by them of such of the above-mentioned fees as are intended to meet the personal and office expenses incurred in the carrying out of the work of revising jurors and voters lists. On the other hand, the State now undertakes to defray all the expenses which were formerly paid out of the fees, and in the net result no increased cost will result.

The matter of permanent staffing of the County Registrars' offices is at present under consideration, but a temporary arrangement has been come to by which the existing staffs are being continued at a rate of remuneration equivalent to that which they formerly received from the old clerical allowances, plus whatever payments the Clerks of the Crown and Peace were in the habit of making them from their fees. A sum of £14,700 (£9,700 and bonus £5,000) under this sub-head represents the anticipated cost of the staffs as from the 1st September last. The electroal fees for 1926 were, except in two counties, paid to and retained by the former Clerks of the Crown and Peace by whom the voters lists for 1926 were prepared. The fees in respect of 1927 lists, which are now in course of preparation, will not be received until after 31st March next and will appear as appropriations-in-aid in next year's estimate. The two counties in which the 1926 fees will be surrendered are Dublin and Kerry. In these counties vacancies in the office of Clerk of the Crown and Peace were filled prior to the 1st September last on the terms which now apply to all County Registrars. The sums to be surrendered are expected to amount to £1,381 and are shown under sub-head E (appropriations-in-aid). A sum of £600 is also provided under sub-head BB for incidental expenses which, under the agreement referred to above, are now payable by the State.

Coming to sub-head CC, a sum of £750 is provided to cover the travelling, etc., expenses of County Registrars and their staffs as from 1st September last. These expenses, which were formerly paid by the Clerk of the Crown and Peace out of his fees, are incurred in attending Circuit Court sittings and in connection with revision work. The gross amount required for what may be described as the new services amounts to £40,810. We must also allow for a sum of £250, which is the estimated deficiency on the original appropriations-in-aid estimated for the vote.

Against this total of £40,810 we are in a position to set off £1,591, additional appropriations-in-aid, made up of £1,381, Electoral Act fees, received by the County Registrars of Dublin and Kerry, and a sum of £210, representing the estimated amount of the fees which will be received by County Registrars in three counties—Waterford, Wexford and Offaly—in which the office of undersheriff has fallen vacant, and in which the execution of court orders is now being carried out by the County Registrar. In the printed estimate the deficiency of £250 on the original appropriations-in-aid is deducted from the new appropriations-in-aid (£1,591), giving a net sum of £1,341.

We are further in a position to deduct from the gross amount now required a sum of £37,019, representing savings on services which were provided for a full year in the original estimate, that is, salaries of Clerks of the Crown and Peace, process servers, etc., and which cease to exist after five months, viz., 31st August last. The gross sum required, £40,810, less the deductions amounting to £38,360, leaves a net balance of £2,450, which is the amount in the supplementary estimate for which the approval of the Dáil is now sought.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I would like to get some information from the Minister with regard to the appointment of the new officers who replace the Clerks of the Crown and Peace—the County Registrars. I think the Minister said that a considerable saving in salaries had been effected by the new arrangements made in that connection. I would like to know if the Minister takes into account the superannuation of the Clerks of the Crown and Peace in the past, and also whether it was compulsory on Clerks of the Crown and Peace to retire on the coming into operation of the new arrangements or if they had power to continue in the position of County Registrar. If they had that power and decided to continue did they continue at the old salaries or at the existing salaries? The point I make is that we have in certain counties a superannuated Clerk of the Crown and Peace and, at the same time, a County Registrar with a fixed salary. Undoubtedly the combined salary and the superannuation would be greater than the total remuneration of the former Clerk of the Crown and Peace. I would like to know was it open to the former Clerks of the Crown and Peace to accept the new office, and if the avenue was clearly open and if no obstacle was placed in the way of existing officers of that kind, how many of them accepted the new position of County Registrar?

Another point on which I would like to get information is as to the fees formerly paid to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace. Is the salary paid to the County Registrar absolutely inclusive, or does he get any additional remuneration of any kind from fees or bonuses of any class whatever? With regard to sub-head CC—"Travelling, etc., Expenses"—I would like to know whether in the Act the question of travelling expenses is taken into account. Perhaps the Minister would also say something about what "etc." means in that case.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The kind of expenses you incurred in Geneva.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Would the Minister repeat that or explain it?

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

I think it has no bearing on the question.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I would like to know whether it is compulsory or mandatory on us to pay these travelling expenses.

Mr. JOHNSON

This supplementary estimate, as far as I read it, means that where there was an original vote amounting to £74,512, there is an additional sum required now of £2,450, to which should be added £1,341, but there are certain fees. As I gathered from the Minister, there will be an additional revenue from fees as compared with the estimate. On the estimate we were advised of an expectation of £14,000 as extra receipts payable to the Exchequer from fee stamps. Has the Minister any estimate of the increase likely to accrue to the Exchequer from fees?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Deputy Heffernan raised certain questions for the reply to which I should really refer him to the official report of the Second Reading and subsequent stages of the Court Officers Act. He asked about Clerks of the Peace. Every Clerk of the Peace who was not over the age limit prescribed by the Court Officers Act was eligible for, and was offered appointment as, County Registrar. There is one qualification to that, as I stated on the Second Reading of the Court Officers Act—that we were prepared to pay them their existing salaries subject to this: that in no case were we prepared to pay the Clerk of the Peace who accepted office as County Registrar, a salary greater than £1,450 plus bonus. That was, no doubt, a factor making for the retirement of, perhaps, three or four of the Clerks of the Peace. I do not say it was the whole story, but it was a factor in certain cases. That qualification to the general proposition, that we were prepared to appoint Clerks of the Peace as County Registrars on their existing salaries, was fully explained in the Dáil and was approved by the Dáil when the Court Officers Act was going through. Those were the only qualifications—the age limit which applied in some few cases and the maximum salary that was mentioned to the Dáil when the Court Officers Act was passing through. That was approved of by the Dáil.

I have not here the exact number of Clerks of the Peace who remained on and accepted office as County Registrars, and the exact number that went, but, of course, that can be supplied at any time in answer to a question, or when the estimates for the year 1927-8 are under review. With regard to the question about sub-head CC, the sum of £750 provided to cover the expenses of county registrars and their staffs as from 1st September last, these expenses, which were formerly paid to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace out of his fees, are incurred in attending Circuit Court sittings and in connection with the work of revision. On Deputy Johnson's point I said that against the total of £40,810 we can set off £1,591 additional appropriations-in-aid.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am sorry. I missed that.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

That is made up as follows: £1,381 Electoral Act fees received by the county registrars of two counties—Dublin and Kerry—and I explained that the positions of Clerks of the Crown and Peace in these two counties fell vacant prior to the passing of the Court Officers Act, but that we made the appointments on the same conditions as now apply universally to county registrars.

Mr. JOHNSON

I beg the Minister's pardon. That was not my point. On the original estimate there is a footnote that points out that there were certain receipts, made up as follows:—Appropriations-in-aid £5,051, and extra receipts payable to the Exchequer in the form of fee stamps, £14,000. I gathered from the Minister's statement that because of the rearrangement there were certain additional charges which would be more than offset by the additional fees.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the Minister say what the additional fees would amount to over and above the £14,000 which was estimated when the original estimate was prepared?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

The electoral fees for 1926, except in the two counties of Dublin and Kerry, were paid to and retained by the Clerks of the Crown and Peace then existing. The fees in respect of the 1927 lists now being prepared will not be received until after 31st March next, and will appear as appropriations-in-aid in next year's estimate.

Mr. HEWAT

When the question of the big change-over in the law courts was before us there was a considerable fear that a great many of the officers would take advantage of the change to retire. Perhaps this would not be an inappropriate time for the Minister to tell us if in the change-over, which was a very big process, the machinery and the whole operation have worked fairly satisfactorily, and if he has not had any exceptional demands for retirements of officials under Article X. of the Treaty.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Of course this estimate only deals with the Circuit Court, but perhaps I might be permitted to say, generally, that there was no demand greater than was anticipated for retirement as a result of the passing of the Court Officers Act. There was nothing in the nature of a general exodus. If the Deputy puts down a question I could at any time give him the actual figures. But in the staffs of the High Court, the Supreme Court and the lower courts the retirements were on the small side; there was no rush to get out. The office of Clerk of the Peace was a life office. Some of the Clerks of the Peace were above the age which we thought it wise to fix in the Court Officers Act, and some few others went because of the maximum which we laid down, or, at any rate, that entered into their considerations. But, generally, the Court Officers Act is working smoothly and there have been no exceptional retirements.

Vote put and agreed to.